some questions about Israel

This came up discussing the recent Israel-Lebanon 35-day war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_crisis
The war started during a Hezbollah cross-border raid, and shooting at IDF rescue force, resulting in death of eight and the kidnapping of two IDF soldiers.

Israel responded by invading Lebanon and bombing the country. When it was over,
Lebanon suffered 1,100 dead, mostly civlians. one-third children.
Israel suffered 150 dead, mostly military.

And the issue that came up was whether or not Israel's response of invading and bombing an entire nation, killing a thousand civilians and causign 2.5 billion dollars in damages to civilian infrastructure, is proportional to an attack on a single military unit.

The Geneva Convention on teh Rules of Warfare.
http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~nstanton/Ch2.htm#s4

Unnecessary Killing and Devastation

Particularly in the circumstances referred to in the preceding paragraph, loss of life and damage to property incidental to attacks must not be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage expected to be gained. Those who plan or decide upon an attack, therefore, must take all reasonable steps to ensure not only that the objectives are identified as military objectives or defended places within the meaning of the preceding paragraph but also that these objectives may be attacked without probable losses in lives and damage to property disproportionate to the military advantage anticipated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5207478.stm
UN's Humanitarian Chief Jan Egeland has condemned the devastation caused by Israeli air strikes in Beirut, saying it is a violation of humanitarian law.
He said the "disproportionate response" by Israel was a "violation of international humanitarian law".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197544.stm
UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour said the "principle of proportionality" must be observed. "Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,209890,00.html
Amnesty International accuses Israel of War Crimes. "There is clear evidence of disproportionate and indiscriminate attacks."

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/24/isrlpa13798.htm
Human Rights Watch alleges that the use of cluster munitions in populated areas violate the prohibition on indiscriminate attacks contained in international humanitarian law.

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2006/07/13/287081-us-vetoes-un-condemnation-of-israel
The UN accuses Israel of a disproportionate use of force in lebanon.
10 Security Council nations voted in favor,
Britain, Denmark, Peru and Slovakia abstained,
US vetoed

Eight of the last nine vetoes in the council have been cast by the United States. Of those, seven concerned the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html
When the UN votes to condemn Israel for some action, the US often vetoes. Note in the far right column the vote tallies. There are 15 members of the security council. and the votes listed here are consistently 14-1 and 13-1, with the US vetoeing.


Some other notes:
the use of civilians to shield a combatant from attack is a war crime, but does not release the opposing party from its obligations towards the protection of the civilian population.

The fact that someone is wearing civlian clothes, fighting you from a civilian center, does not release you from the obligations of the rules of war. You cannot simply wipe out an entire civlian population to get the combatant hiding inside.

The UN and several organizations also condemned Hezbolla for violating the rules of warfare. But that does not give Israel a free pass to violate the rules as well. You are to follow teh rules of war, even if your enemy does not.


questions:
So, with all the organizations, human rights experts, and nations saying that Israel went over the line and violated the rules of war in bombing and invading Lebanon, and with the US government being really the only voice that says they didn't, the question is where is the truth?

Did Israel cross the line and violate the rules of war?

Is the rest of the world biased against Israel? Are they anti semite?

Is the US biased in favor of Israel?
to the point where war crimes are buried by US veto?

Dave,
I'm not sure I understant. Are you saying
Israel violated the rules of war during the 35-day war?

English Dave said:

I'm saying I don't give a flying fvck who violated what.

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A long answer for a yes/no question

English Dave said:

If you want to talk about the rules of war, then did hezbollah abide by the rules of war?

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yes. They did. Those same organizations who said Israel violated rules of war, also said hezbollah did. Which is anohter reason I do not believe they are the biased ones in the situation.

English Dave said:

I'm more interested in resolution than conflict.

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I find it odd when people assume that the solution has nothign to do with the way the problem has been playing out. Like whether or not Israel violated international law has nothing to do with what it will take to resolve the conflict.

If you want a military solution, then the past is irrelevant. Just figure out how to kill your opponents, and go home. but make sure you get every last mother fing one of them.

If you want a non-military solution, then the past matters, because both sides see the other as having done them some injustice and those injustices are the cause for the conflict. So you have to address those injustices in some way. This might be done in combination with military peacekeepers from the UN or something, but there is no point in sending in peacekeepers if neither side wants a peaceful solution.

Ya know what I mean?

So, if Israel stepped over the line with Lebanon, then it needs to clean up the mess it unjustly created, while the UN peacekeepers keep the peace. If not, then all that will happen is the UN will leave, and the fighting will resume, because all those unjustices have remained unaddressed.

This is why I wouldn't send US troops there to keep the peace. Israel has no interest in a diplomatic long term solution. It would be a waste of men and machine.

So, I think we need to know if Israel violated the rules of war and whether it needs to clean up some of the mess it created in Lebanon if we are to find a long term solution to peace.

English Dave said:

It was . Saying people also said that Hezbollah infringed the rules of war [finally and well after the point you are making] takes no account of the human psychology on both sides.

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No one has had a problem telling Hezbollah when they violate the GC.
The US doesn't step in and veto every UN resolution that tells
hezbollah to follow the rules of war. The US only does that for Israel.

If you want to discuss psychology, my thinking is that Israel
is insulated and propped up by the US. They've gotten the most
foreign aid of any country cumulatively from the US since WW2.
And the US government is always on standby to shoot down any
UN criticism of Israel. Which means Israel can essentially operate
open loop, independent of what its neighbors think.

I was thinking a little criticism in the form of the US letting the UN
actually call Israel on its rules of war violations might shake them
out of their bubble. That or the US could stop pumping an endless
stream of money into Israel until is starts following the GC.

On the Hezbollah side, I'm not so sure. The UN already criticizes
Hezbollah every time they violate the rules of war. So there isn't
anything to be done there from a psychology point of view.
And the 35-day war gave them a lot of support from the Lebanese
taht didn't exist before. I'm not sure how to redirect that to a solution.
I'm open for suggestions.

I just don't want every solution to end up wih Israel to continue
operating open loop, because I believe that is part of the problem.

They need to deal with the Palestinians, not just screw them over,
kick them out, build a barrier, and then turn their back on them.

English Dave said:

Ummmm.........Hezbollah is not a country.

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Yeah, I know, but the same UN chief who said Israel's invasion into Lebanon overstepped the rules of warfare also said Hezbollah must stop firing rockets into civilian areas of Israel and must stop firing from civilian areas in Lebanon.

No one has had a problem saying when Hezbollah violates teh rules of war.
That isn't an issue.

When Israel violates the rules of war, though, that's when the US steps
in with its veto power to put an end to any measure that even remotely
criticizes Israel's actions.

Spork, why don't you start a thread that says "Israel can do no wrong and all who criticize her are anti semites." That's already the message of all your threads anyway.

English Dave said:

Who kidnapped Israeli soldiers? Hezbollah or The Lebanon who allows a terrorist organisation to have control of their southern border? Just sayin'

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Hezbolla took pows.
lebanon allows them to operate in their southern region.

Was that in dispute?
I certainly don't disagree with it.

And Israel should deal with them both inside the rules of war.

But that won't give you a long term solution,
it'll give you a military solution.
Which is fine, if that's what you want.
But if you want to have some sort of long term solution,
I think Israel needs to stop violating the rules of war as well.

If it could deal with Hezbollah inside the rules of war,
inside of some balance for lebanese civilians,
If it could deal with hamas inside some balance for palestinian civilians,
then it would stop making things worse everytime it reacts to an attack.

And if dealt with some of the longer-term issues like the
60-year old unresolved mess around palestine,
maybe it could move towards a longer term solution.

Not like it's a guarantee that all of hezbollah or all
of hamas will evaporate, but that it will at least
shrink to the point where they are managable by
preventative measures like intelligence and teh like.