Probation for Elderly Driver Who Plowed into Crowd

AnneMarble · Nov 20, 2006

Do you remember the case (ay back from 2003) where a man in his 80s plowed into a crowd at a farmers market, killing 10 people and injuring more than 70? (They think he panicked and stepped on the gas instead of the break.) Today, he was convicted -- but sentenced to probation. On the other hand, he is nearly 90, and he was in sickbed and unable to attend the trial, so they probably didn't think it was worthwhile sending him to prison.

So what do you think? Some of the people affected by the case think he should have gone to prison. Sure, he was old, but he should have known better than to keep driving when he knew he was having problems with his reactions. Even the judged called his apologies "hollow" and thinks the driver should have been able to avoid plowing into the people. (After all, he avoid hitting cars and trucks!) Others seem to think that while he deserved to be punished, it just wasn't worth it. (For one thing, he has heart disease, so treatment while he was in prison would become a burdern to taxpayers.)

FWIW he is being ordered to pay restitution, although not all the details have been worked out.

English Dave · Nov 20, 2006

AnneMarble said:
Do you remember the case (ay back from 2003) where a man in his 80s plowed into a crowd at a farmers market, killing 10 people and injuring more than 70? (They think he panicked and stepped on the gas instead of the break.) Today, he was convicted -- but sentenced to probation. On the other hand, he is nearly 90, and he was in sickbed and unable to attend the trial, so they probably didn't think it was worthwhile sending him to prison.

So what do you think? Some of the people affected by the case think he should have gone to prison. Sure, he was old, but he should have known better than to keep driving when he knew he was having problems with his reactions.

I didn't see anything in the link to say he knew he had problems with his reactions?

billythrilly7th · Nov 20, 2006

Judge had a tough decision to make.

Tragic across the board.

AnneMarble · Nov 20, 2006

English Dave said:
I didn't see anything in the link to say he knew he had problems with his reactions?

Whoops, my bad. I might have remembered hearing something about the case when it was first in the news. Or maybe I as just @ss/u/ming.

MattW · Nov 20, 2006

It's a shame that mental acuity is not tested for drivers, young or old.

Same for voting and procreating.

The least I'd support is mandatory eye testing every 5 years after 40 or with every renewal, with reflex tests and discretion to revoke.

Normally, we could count on individual repsonsibility or families to pull the plug (!) on grannies driving, but we needs our nanny to protect us.

SC Harrison · Nov 20, 2006

English Dave said:
I didn't see anything in the link to say he knew he had problems with his reactions?

We had a previous thread on this story, and I believe the guy admitted that he sometimes got confused between the brake and gas pedals.

I can't remember if the guy had a valid driver's license or not. If he did, and his last renewal didn't include an actual driving test, DMV should be held accountable also (imo).

If he did not have a valid driver's license, and he knew he was breaking the law just by driving, I'm not sure if he shouldn't have to spend his last few years behind bars, expensive treatment or not.

blacbird · Nov 20, 2006

MattW said:
It's a shame that mental acuity is not tested for drivers, young or old.

Same for voting and procreating.

I think the Nazis tried this on the procreation front; it was generally regarded as a bad idea.

caw

English Dave · Nov 20, 2006

My father-in law developed dementia. The doctor 'advised' us to take his car keys away. I did. It wasn't pleasant. He had been driving for 50 years. And Dementia being what it is he couldn't see what the fuss was about.

Sometimes you have to make the tough call. Sometimes nobody is there to make it.

I feel sorry for doctors, but who better to be given legal powers to rescind a driving licence?

billythrilly7th · Nov 20, 2006

English Dave said:
My father-in law developed dementia. The doctor 'advised' us to take his car keys away. I did. It wasn't pleasant. He had been driving for 50 years.

And the fact that you guys drive on the wrong side of the road didn't help the situation.

English Dave · Nov 20, 2006

billythrilly7th said:
And the fact that you guys drive on the wrong side of the road didn't help the situation.

He was driving on the right side of the road.

It was ugly.

SpookyWriter · Nov 20, 2006

English Dave said:
He was driving on the right side of the road.

It was ugly.

But in which direction? :Shrug:

billythrilly7th · Nov 20, 2006

English Dave said:
He was driving on the right side of the road.

It was ugly.

Please tell me he didn't plow into Eric Idle.

billythrilly7th · Nov 20, 2006

Bird of Prey said:
Sheesh. What a bunch a hard-@sses. An ancient old guy should go to jail? Like he meant to hurt those people? What are we coming to? How 'bout sentencing a four year old to twenty for knocking over a lamp and starting a fire that killed a bunch of people. Did the four year old actually know that he had done something wrong?

I actually agree with you.

I think the judge made the right call.

Sending some 90 year old, barely alive as it is, dude off to the slammer does nothing.

Obviously, a family member of mine was not a victim, so I can't put myself in their position entirely, but generally speaking, after hearing he wasn't going to prison I'd probably just do a Thrilly eye roll of annoyed understanding, a wave of the hand, say "whatever!" and be done with it.

Thank you.

SpookyWriter · Nov 20, 2006

Bird of Prey said:
Sheesh. What a bunch a hard-@sses. An ancient old guy should go to jail? Like he meant to hurt those people? What are we coming to? How 'bout sentencing a four year old to twenty for knocking over a lamp and starting a fire that killed a bunch of people. Did the four year old actually know that he had done something wrong?

America the vengeful.

Intent. Ah, so just what were his intentions for driving at his age and clearly a menace to society? Maybe he's too old now, but it's only because of the system that allows ten years to pass before a conviction. That's another reason we have sixty and seventy year old inmates on death row. Should we spare them because the system allowed for so much time to pass while these folks could still understand and appreciate the nature of their crimes?

billythrilly7th · Nov 20, 2006

Bird of Prey said:
You might not even do an eye roll when you see them wheeling him out. . . .some shriveled up hunched over old hump muttering the boy scout pledge, over and over again.

True.

TheGaffer · Nov 20, 2006

Sorry. I don't see the need to send a 90-year-old man to jail, either. Plus, it's not 10 years. It's 3 years in this case, so when it happened, he was very old, and now he's very very old.

English Dave · Nov 20, 2006

Bird of Prey said:
I don't subscribe to capitol punishment, so as far as I'm concerned: spare 'em.

But take away his bus pass. Ha! That'll teach him.

Scribhneoir · Nov 20, 2006

SpookyWriter said:
Intent. Ah, so just what were his intentions for driving at his age and clearly a menace to society?

Intent. Ah yes. I remember when this happened. His intent was to flee from the car he'd just hit. He drove around the concrete barricades that closed off the street for the market, then drove at high speed for three blocks, hitting people all along the way. Because he kept this up for three whole city blocks, I never bought his claim that he confused the brake and the accelerator.

Maybe he's too old now, but it's only because of the system that allows ten years to pass before a conviction.

I don't think he's too old to pay the consequences for his actions. I think he should do jail time, especially given that his lawyers have been harassing jurors for convicting him. It's too bad the judge didn't send him to jail, even for a short time, instead of handing out an essentially meaningless probation and a $90,000 fine. Not much for the lives of 10 people.

English Dave · Nov 20, 2006

Scribhneoir said:
Intent. Ah yes. I remember when this happened. His intent was to flee from the car he'd just hit. He drove around the concrete barricades that closed off the street for the market, then drove at high speed for three blocks, hitting people all along the way. Because he kept this up for three whole city blocks, I never bought his claim that he confused the brake and the accelerator.

.

yeah that sounds like the actions of a sane person with no criminal record.

SpookyWriter · Nov 20, 2006

Bird of Prey said:
I don't subscribe to capitol punishment, so as far as I'm concerned: spare 'em.

What should have happened is that the judge sentences him to the maximum number of years in prison for manslaughter and then suspended the sentence because of his age.

I think probation sends the wrong message to the elderly community. We don't need eighty year old drivers on the road unless they pass the driver test annually.

I think capital punishment is what it is...

English Dave · Nov 20, 2006

SpookyWriter said:
What should have happened is that the judge sentences him to the maximum number of years in prison for manslaughter and then suspended the sentence because of his age.

I think probation sends the wrong message to the elderly community. We don't need eighty year old drivers on the road unless they pass the driver test annually.

I think capital punishment is what it is...

Sometimes sh1t happens.

AnneMarble · Nov 20, 2006

Bird of Prey said:
Sheesh. What a bunch a hard-@sses. An ancient old guy should go to jail? Like he meant to hurt those people? What are we coming to? How 'bout sentencing a four year old to twenty for knocking over a lamp and starting a fire that killed a bunch of people. Did the four year old actually know that he had done something wrong?

America the vengeful.

I really don't think sending him to prison would be a good idea. But you can kill people without meaning to and yet still be liable. Something can be an accident and yet caused by negligence. (Which isn't always enough to get someone in prison, but it can be.)

Besides, the details of the case posted below made it sound as if he, uhm, less than concerned about the people around him. I see it as closer to a drunk driver than a four year old who accidentally starts a fatal fire. Drunk drivers never "mean" to kill people, but they can still end up in prison for doing so.

William Haskins · Nov 20, 2006

he should go to jail for the rest of his life. hard labor.

he should have to break rocks for 18 hours a day and then make license plates and do laundry in his spare time. he should be traded from cellblock to cellblock for cigarettes. when he gets uppity, he should be thrown in the hole with his dinner fed in through a slot in the door and expelled through a slot in the floor.

it's time stop coddling these geriatric delinquents and teach em some goddamn respect.

before it's too late.

BottomlessCup · Nov 20, 2006

If he were a 25 years old, people would be calling for his head.

Age shouldn't get you a free pass from prison.

Drunk drivers don't mean to hurt anybody. Distacted teenagers don't mean to hurt anybody. People driving aggresively because they're late for work don't mean to hurt anybody.

Being careless with a deadly object is and should be a crime. Operating a deadly device without the ability to do so safely is and should be a crime.

He shouldn't have been driving anymore and he knew it. But he did and he killed and injured people.

Lock 'em up.

Inkdaub · Nov 21, 2006

Scribhneoir said:
Intent. Ah yes. I remember when this happened. His intent was to flee from the car he'd just hit. He drove around the concrete barricades that closed off the street for the market, then drove at high speed for three blocks, hitting people all along the way. Because he kept this up for three whole city blocks, I never bought his claim that he confused the brake and the accelerator.

I don't think he's too old to pay the consequences for his actions. I think he should do jail time, especially given that his lawyers have been harassing jurors for convicting him. It's too bad the judge didn't send him to jail, even for a short time, instead of handing out an essentially meaningless probation and a $90,000 fine. Not much for the lives of 10 people.

I agree one hundred percent. He was fleeing the scene of an accident and drove the length of the Santa Monica Farmers Market bouncing people off his hood. Try as I might I just can't summon any 'poor old fellow' sentiment toward this guy.

Some one posted a comparison between this story and punnishing a four year old for knocking over a lamp that starts a fire that kills a bunch of people. Well, while this old man is NOT as innocent as a the four year old in question, of course you don't send the four year old to jail. What you do is your best to keep the four year old away from things that may start fires. So maybe we should do our best to keep drivers like this old man out from behind the wheel.

Probation for Elderly Driver Who Plowed into Crowd

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English Dave

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English Dave

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wrapped in plastic