The Rangel Draft

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http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2665732

WASHINGTON*Nov 19, 2006*(AP)—*Americans would have to sign up for a new military draft after turning 18 if the incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee has his way.

Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., said Sunday he sees his idea as a way to deter politicians from launching wars and to bolster U.S. troop levels insufficient to cover potential future action in Iran, North Korea and Iraq.

"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said.

Rock on, Charlie!!

I say we call his bluff.

We need more people.

Just keep the draftees away from the voluntees.

We don't need their bad attitudes spreading like a cancer through the volunteer forces.

I'm just throwing stuff out there. Nothing is carved in stone.

Thank you.
 

SpookyWriter

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I thought this was going to be about the NFL draft. Pfffftt...I lost track of the teams since the last great expansion.
 

Unique

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billythrilly7th said:
It'd be my honor.

Then go sign up. Why wait?

IMO - the draft just serves as fodder for their cannons.
For defense - fine. I'd reenlist myself.
To line someone else's pockets with the spoils of war - fuhgeddaboutit.
 

SpookyWriter

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Unique said:
For defense - fine. I'd reenlist myself.
I'm in the "Don't fire until you see the color of their eyes." type of draftee. I understand the idea behind a draft, as presented, is to scare America's youth into believing they'll have to sacrifice their personal freedom to spread democracy around the world.

Didn't work in Vietnam and won't work now. The first draftee's will revolt and flee to Canada where the story begins.
 

dclary

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I sure don't understand this.

How in the world do you work this into Democratic strategy for the next election?

"The republicans were going the wrong way, so we did the right thing. We instituted the draft! If we're going to send people into harm's way, by God it better be people who didn't volunteer for it."


Seriously. Someone tell me how this helps anything?
 

Unique

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dclary said:
I sure don't understand this.

Seriously. Someone tell me how this helps anything?

beats me. maybe there are term limits in NY? It sounds like political suicide.

"Repeated polls have shown that about seven in 10 Americans oppose reinstatement of the draft and officials say they do not expect to restart conscription.

It would be curious to see who agrees and supports his idea.

Outgoing Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld told Congress in June 2005 that "there isn't a chance in the world that the draft will be brought back."
 

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It would not be a wise thing to enslave me and then give me a gun.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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SpookyWriter said:
The first draftee's will revolt and flee to Canada where the story begins.

no thanks - we've got enough of our own losers, we don't need to import yours!

:D

besides, didn't we already toss back some of your AWOL boyos claiming refugee status?
 

blacbird

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Bartholomew said:
It would not be a wise thing to enslave me and then give me a gun.

Exactly that was done to millions of young American males from WWII to 1973. It was a clear necessity in WWII, and caused no real social strife. In the Vietnam era, the system got abused in a thoroughly reprehensible way and enabled both our entry into Vietnam and the idiotic conduct of that war. That would be exactly my worry today: that venal self-serving politicians would misuse military conscription in just the way the current administration is misusing the Reserve/National Guard system, to conduct ill-considered military adventure.

At the same time, a part of me thinks that requiring some form of military training and basic service of all able-bodied high-school graduates wouldn't be such a bad thing. But it would be hideously expensive, and short of a real national crisis, seems beyond the possibility of political acceptance.

The concept of a military draft limited to the children of any serving Senator or Congressperson, however, strikes me as sound and highly desirable.

caw
 
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Unique

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blacbird said:
The concept of a military draft limited to the children of any serving Senator or Congressperson, however, strikes me as sound and highly desirable.

caw

You've been trawling about the halls of my brain again, blacbird. tsk, tsk.
 

Bartholomew

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The Black Bird said:
The concept of a military draft limited to the children of any serving Senator or Congressperson, however, strikes me as sound and highly desirable.

Unique said:
You've been trawling about the halls of my brain again, blacbird. tsk, tsk.

I think our politicians should be made to fight on the front lines.

Their children haven't done anything.
 

Unique

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Most of the politicians wouldn't pass the physical.
 

SC Harrison

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As a former volunteer, I am opposed to the idea because I believe it would further degrade an already waning esprit de corps amongst the ranks.

But I also believe that politicians and indeed many citizens have developed an opinion that the all-volunteer military of our country is more of a mercenary force than a national defense organization; a tool to be wielded to forward our national interests, as it were. If a draft were instituted, hopefully the idea of the "professional soldier" might change back to more of a "public servant" role. I don't know.
 

Unique

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CNN - notice the date

ABC - notice the date

I get the man's point of view.

"I truly believe that those who make the decision and those who support the United States going into war would feel more readily the pain that's involved, the sacrifice that's involved, if they thought that the fighting force would include the affluent and those who historically have avoided this great responsibility," Rangel said.
"Those who love this country have a patriotic obligation to defend this country," Rangel said. "For those who say the poor fight better, I say give the rich a chance."

I trust no one. If my country is being attacked that's one thing - if we are the aggressors in an unjust police action - I can't even bring myself to say it.
 

dclary

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SC Harrison said:
As a former volunteer, I am opposed to the idea because I believe it would further degrade an already waning esprit de corps amongst the ranks.

But I also believe that politicians and indeed many citizens have developed an opinion that the all-volunteer military of our country is more of a mercenary force than a national defense organization; a tool to be wielded to forward our national interests, as it were. If a draft were instituted, hopefully the idea of the "professional soldier" might change back to more of a "public servant" role. I don't know.

Even John Kerry thinks the military would suck more with a draft.
 

SpookyWriter

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dclary said:
Even John Kerry thinks the military would suck more with a draft.
The draft, if done correctly (without exceptions for school like previous drafts), would collect the youth of America from all walks of life regardless of their social or economic stature.

The draft is much better in terms of gathering a diverse cross-section of Americans than the volunteer military. So maybe folks don't like the idea, but compulsory two service could be good for many of the kids today who might otherwise end up in gangs or prison.
 

William Haskins

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SpookyWriter said:
The draft, if done correctly (without exceptions for school like previous drafts), would collect the youth of America from all walks of life regardless of their social or economic stature.

i think that's the problem. take a stroll through your local mall and get a load of the cross-section of american youth.

i'll take those who are passionate about technology and/or service to their country and/or the headstart in life the military can potentially offer, thank you.

rangel is posturing, and the data doesn't support the subtext that the armed forces are mostly composed of minorities and the poor. fortunately for all of us, there will be a political price to be paid by the democrats for this kind of political grandstanding.
 

blacbird

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William Haskins said:
rangel is posturing,

Kind of a strange bit of "posturing", isn't it, considering how unpopular his position is right now?

Give us another wee break, William. In another thread I gave sincere kudos to Bill O'Reilly (not exactly a guy I often admire) about another issue. I don't even agree with Rangel in this particular issue right now, but I'm happy he's brought it up in a way that is sure to generate some open public discussion of it. That, at least, needs to be done.

There's another matter about a military draft that I don't yet hear anybody talking about: Money. I was drafted in 1968 (just before the advent of the draft lottery); initially, I got paid $90 per month. I spent just under three years in the Army, the last year-plus as a buck sergeant, still making not very much money (so little that I honestly can't recall what it was). Point being, that in the draft era, it worked only because drafted soldiers were paid next to nothing, getting housing, food, medical care, uniforms gratis, courtesy of the Military. Oh, yeah, those things and weapons and ammunition and other lethal equipment.

Now, to make an all-volunteer Military establishment work, the first thing that needed to be done was to increase the amount of direct compensation significantly. It still isn't enough; lots of the families of lower-ranking military people are on food stamps (yet another program conservatives would like to see die, Support-the-troops be damned). But it's a lot more than we could possibly afford to pay an expanded Military drawn from conscription.

So . . . if we somewhere along the line actually do want to re-establish a Military draft, how do we deal with this problem? No way can you have a two-tier payment system; you want morale problems, try that one for size. No way can you cut compensation for volunteers, especially pre-draft volunteers. I see BIG problem looming.

In retrospect, killing the draft back in 1973 probably is going to be regarded ultimately as a mistake. Unfortunately, at the time, there was little other choice politically acceptable. The 1960s draft system had been so blatantly abused that it had to die. But the pretense that the strongest nation in the world could maintain a Military establishment on a purely volunteer basis is now in serious question. That idea drove the Rumsfeld/Cheney/Bush axis to support the idea of a "smaller, lighter" Military force dominated by technology. We've now seen what that has got us in Iraq. The rest of the world, notably Iran, has too.

John McCain is calling for big increases in the troop numbers in Iraq, and recognizing openly what this means: that current deployments of Reservists and Guard units will need to be extended, and further tours of duty there will likewise be mandatory. Or, in other words, we ain't got enough Military personnel in boots right now; not anywhere near enough.

And we ain't about to raise taxes or ask for any sacrifices from the American public for a war that turned out to be based on faulty intelligence and rose-colored ideology. And the Iranians and the North Koreans (and God knows who else) recognize that, too.

Well, finally, long overdue, Rumsfeld is gone. Wolfowitz left a while ago. Nobody's heard doodlysquat from Wolfy's lieutenant, mystery man Doug Feith, anytime recently. And Republicans just got kicked in the teeth largely because of public dissatisfaction with the White House crowd, and that message seems to have been heard. That's a start. We can always hope that Bush is listening more these days to Condy than he is listening to Cheney.

Draft? Let's at least talk about it. Kudos to Rangel.

caw
 

William Haskins

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obviously, since you mention generating public discourse twice in your last post alone, you know exactly the purpose of the posturing. but that's neither here nor there.

the "give us a wee break" crap is condescending, by the way.

if you need a break from opposing viewpoints, i suggest you try using the "ignore" feature provided you by the software, instead of trying to somehow embarrass me into silence or rhetorically minimizing my contributions to the discussion.
 

ColoradoGuy

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blacbird said:
There's another matter about a military draft that I don't yet hear anybody talking about: Money.
The all-volunteer army is expensive in another way. The dependent health care costs are huge. I practiced for years in a huge military town, home base to what I believe are three army divisions. It is not unusual to find even pfc's with a spouse and three or more children, all of whom get TriCare health coverage. This never happened in the old draftee army, when privates were beardless kids. And, of course, when today's pfc gets deployed and bad things happen, even more people are affected.
 

blacbird

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William Haskins said:
the "give us a wee break" crap is condescending, by the way.

No, it's not. You are well aware that I respect your expressions of opinions on things, even when I disagree with them. But when you imply (as you did in an earlier thread) that to fail to mention that deliberate blowing up of civilians is somehow an admission of agreement with terrorists, you're playing at demagoguery. So give us a break. None of us here agree with that, or that Rangel bringing up the draft is political posturing, when it's such an unpopular idea. I can give Bush credit for sacking Rumsfeld (and that's what it was, "resignation" notwithstanding), give Rangel a break for broaching a very unpopular idea in a way that demands its consideration. I don't agree with everything Rangel says, either, by the way.

caw.
 
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