Christian fantasy

Katherine Kurtz's Deryni novels are set in a well described Medieval world, with a strong emphasis on the Medieval Church (which is actually more Anglican than Catholic, with no rank higher than Archbishop in evidence, and no mention of a Pope anywhere). Some of her major characters are priests and bishops, and there is a tension between their Christian faith and Deryni/magical powers, which are considered to be evil - though 200 years or so in her world's past, there were highly regarded religious orders formed of Deryni monks.
She's one of my favourite authors - I love medieval when it's accurately described, and I love her type of fantasy, and I enjoy seeing characters honestly wrestling with their faith, and taking it seriously.

Re themes: write the story first, make it good, and the themes should be there. If they're too much in evidence or need bringing out more, you can always tweak later, when you're editing.

Check out Emily Snyder's Twelve Kingdoms world (Niamh and the Hermit, The Myth of Ostrung the Giant) for one that I think does this well.

There isn't one answer to this question. You have to ask what it is exactly you hope to do. What is your target audience, Christian, Secular, or both? What is your message? Is it to explain the gospel, how Christians live in this world, a story that is about something we all share but written through a Christian lens.

The Book of Esther is very low on references to God. Job has a righteous man questioning God's goodness.

I'm asking these questions not as an answer, but merely to show that there are a variety of ways to approach this.

I love Jesus. I believe in Jesus. If that turns people off, and write me off, I accept that. I pray about what I do and would rather toss my book in the garbage than do something that would in any way hurt "Thy kingdom come" or "Thy will be done". I give great thought to what I do.

Yet, I never saw my own fantasy as a Christian fantasy, at least not in the typical ways. It might actually confuse Christians because 1) It is not an allegory of the Gospel. 2) There are no Christians in it.

Jesus was fully focused upon a task, going to the cross. Yet, he didn't talk only about redemption. He also talked about what is important- love, fidelity, serving, faithfulness, wisdom, attitudes...etc.

Jesus used parables to explain what he meant by certain things because in fact, heavenly thoughts and things are so incomprehensible, without the Holy Spirit opening our eyes, we can't come close to understanding them. So, Jesus spoke of mustard seeds, and two brothers and a father.

Out of context, the story of the Prodigal Son is about a father's love. In the context of the rest of Luke chapter 15, the story is entirely about God's love for us, regardless of station in life. The stories Jesus used to make a point don't always mention "God" or "Christ" or "Cross". They mention farmers and weddings, and yet, they are completely spiritual.

One of the great inspirations for me, and probably many Christians that have ever written stories are Solomon's approach to telling a story. The Song of Solomon as well as the personification of Wisdom in proverbs, (if not included in the Bible) would likely have never earned a place in a Christian Bookstore. People wouldn't get that there is so much more to these stories. The Song of Solomon is not just about the love between a man and woman who fall in love.

Yet, where is God mentioned, his plan, the Law of Moses? None of these things are mentioned.

Is that to say that the Song of Solomon isn't a spiritual book? That would be an absolute mistake. It simply goes about making a profound point in an unconventional way.



I ask a question about what latitude we have in creativity? Is there such a thing as a Christian pie? Put a cross on it and quote a scripture in the crust, and then are you defiling it by eating it? Obviously we bake pies and may bake them out of love, a desire to entertain, and much of the value of what we do in life depends on the attitudes and intentions of the heart.

Nateskate said:

It might actually confuse Christians because 1) It is not an allegory of the Gospel. 2) There are no Christians in it.

Click to expand...

Hmm, wouldn't confuse the Christians I know!

My take on it is that being a Christian isn't like belonging to the chess club or something where it's one thing out of many that we do. It should shape an entire worldview. But most books people want to read (at least people I know!) aren't written to make the point of "hey, this is how I see the world." They're written to tell a story first, and the worldview comes across in the telling. Different characters or events in the story can show/explore different takes or different aspects of the world, but they still have to be believable in the context of the story, not just fronts for a message.

Another thought on a story with no Christians in it: there are a lot of those stories in the real world; no reason there shouldn't be fictional ones as well. A Christian looking at, say, the Peloponesian wars (random example), would see that time period as having a certain place not only in history, but in salvation history (post-Creation, post-Fall, pre-Incarnation, etc.). But that doesn't mean it has to be mentioned in telling the story, unless it's actually relevant to the story. Same with a fantasy world -- you as the author can know where it falls in salvation history, know its creation story, etc., but those don't have to be mentioned unless they're relevant to the story. Tolkien's worldbuilding does this; the background's there, but it doesn't really come up unless you delve into the Silmarillion etc.

Nateskate said:

Is there such a thing as a Christian pie?

Click to expand...

Hot cross buns? Shepherd's pie?

Nateskate,

If you write your fantasy as well as you wrote that last post, I'll take a dozen! Most of those really well expressed thoughts were very applicable to Christian fiction (or creative non-fiction) overall, not just fantasy. I wish I had something profound to add, but you covered all the bases. Thanks for that.

And, by the way, if you bake as well as you write, I'll take a slice of that pie, too.

Amen, to you, too, AnnieColleen!

BrianTubbs said:

If this has been discussed before, I apologize for my laziness in not searching thoroughly enough for it. Feel free to just respond with a link. But, in case not...

I'm in the very early stages of working on a Christian children's fantasy. It's set in a mythical, medieval type setting - typical fantasy setting. And it's of course Christian, though I don't really want it to be overt-the-top, nails-on-the-chalkboard type Christian fiction - if you know what I mean.

How can or should Christian themes best be treated in a sci-fi/fantasy setting, especially if you're dealing with a different world or different creation?

Virtually all of our references to God (speaking as Christians here) stem from the Bible. Well, in a fantasy world, there might not be a Bible.

Obviously, I've read C.S. Lewis. But I'd really be interested in your take, either as a fan of fantasy lit or (even better) as a writer of it.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

If you take your fantasy and put it into a medieval setting, I think it should be pointed out that a large number of the people in the Middle Ages could not read. So the only Bible people would have would be the words of a man of God. They might have seen or touched a book that had the Scriptures in it, but they probably would not have been able to read those Scriptures.

The point I'm making to this is, maybe what you should do is use your storyline to give the readers examples of applying Biblical truths to one's life. Also, many readers are put off by the mention of "The Bible says..." in the first place, so it might be advantageous for your work to not even mention the Bible or whatever holy book your fantasy might use....or at least not mention it much.

That's one thing I liked about C.S. Lewis and his Chronicles of Narnia. I've not read them all, but of the ones I have read, I don't remember there being a Bible even mentioned within them. Yet the truths that Mr. Lewis applied to the story gave a lasting impression on me as a reader, in a good way.

Ian D. Mecantie said:

If you take your fantasy and put it into a medieval setting, I think it should be pointed out that a large number of the people in the Middle Ages could not read. So the only Bible people would have would be the words of a man of God.

Click to expand...

"The Poor Man's Bible" -- windows, statues, etc. in the churches -- would be a good worldbuilding detail as well. If the story needs it. (I think I'm starting to be repetitious here. )

Ian D. Mecantie said:

it might be advantageous for your work to not even mention the Bible or whatever holy book your fantasy might use....or at least not mention it much.

Click to expand...

At least no more than fits individual characters -- if someone's constantly quoting, is he a scholar whose life-work is study; or maybe a peasant who finds security in that structure of tradition (think Tevye -- "As the Good Book says..."); or...? And have other characters react believably too -- some agree, some be irritated, etc.

The narrator should almost certainly not be throwing quotes around because that does come across as preachy.

AnnieColleen said:

Hmm, wouldn't confuse the Christians I know!

My take on it is that being a Christian isn't like belonging to the chess club or something where it's one thing out of many that we do. It should shape an entire worldview. But most books people want to read (at least people I know!) aren't written to make the point of "hey, this is how I see the world." They're written to tell a story first, and the worldview comes across in the telling. Different characters or events in the story can show/explore different takes or different aspects of the world, but they still have to be believable in the context of the story, not just fronts for a message.

Another thought on a story with no Christians in it: there are a lot of those stories in the real world; no reason there shouldn't be fictional ones as well. A Christian looking at, say, the Peloponesian wars (random example), would see that time period as having a certain place not only in history, but in salvation history (post-Creation, post-Fall, pre-Incarnation, etc.). But that doesn't mean it has to be mentioned in telling the story, unless it's actually relevant to the story. Same with a fantasy world -- you as the author can know where it falls in salvation history, know its creation story, etc., but those don't have to be mentioned unless they're relevant to the story. Tolkien's worldbuilding does this; the background's there, but it doesn't really come up unless you delve into the Silmarillion etc.


Hot cross buns? Shepherd's pie?

Click to expand...

Thanks for the comments. It's interesting you should mention Tolkien. I'm an avid fan and have been on many Tolkien boards. His writings are considered somewhat complex in that there are allegorical elements that might have a spiritual nature, but the books on the whole are not allegorical- not a story about the Gospel. Still, his works have stimulated countless spiritual debates.

BruceJ said:

Nateskate,

If you write your fantasy as well as you wrote that last post, I'll take a dozen! Most of those really well expressed thoughts were very applicable to Christian fiction (or creative non-fiction) overall, not just fantasy. I wish I had something profound to add, but you covered all the bases. Thanks for that.

And, by the way, if you bake as well as you write, I'll take a slice of that pie, too.

Click to expand...

You are too kind. (Smiles)

Your point is well taken. If everything we say is predictable then why are we saying it? Jesus is the embodiment of spiritual profoundness- the Word made flesh. But he was profoundly unpredictable, and not at all what people expected. Contrary to some views, he was not confrontational except in one particular matter- those who got in the way of men, women and children wanting to come to God. In other matters people liked him and hung around with him, and welcomed him into their homes.

I'm not saying he wasn't controversial, simply he didn't fit any mold a man could make. I imagine those who actually hated him, who knew him, actually wrestled with themselves to reach that point, and mostly did so out of fear of losing something.

Nateskate said:

It might actually confuse Christians because 1) It is not an allegory of the Gospel.

Click to expand...

Nateskate said:

His writings are considered somewhat complex in that there are allegorical elements that might have a spiritual nature, but the books on the whole are not allegorical- not a story about the Gospel.

Click to expand...

Looking at these two statements...are you defining Christian fantasy as only stories that are allegories about the Gospel?

AnnieColleen said:

Looking at these two statements...are you defining Christian fantasy as only stories that are allegories about the Gospel?

Click to expand...

I can't speak for Nate, but I've always had a problem with the concept of Christian Fantasy. If Christ isn't in it and it's not an allegory (or parable, if you will), what's to differentiate it from any other fantasy that has a religious theme? What makes it Christian?

AnnieColleen said:

Looking at these two statements...are you defining Christian fantasy as only stories that are allegories about the Gospel?

Click to expand...

Hi Annie. It's so difficult to communicate my thoughts in one thread. I'll elaborate, but I hope you don't mind if I give a long answer so that others who might not be Christians that read this can follow. Actually I was saying something quite different.

My point is somewhat akin to what Jesus said about good and bad people. "You will know them by their fruits..." Theives steal. Philanthropists should not. If you look at a person's life, you will either see a series of people they've hurt or blessed. I don't mean this to say only Christians can do good. On the contrary, Jesus was saying our lives should make us obvious. If you follow my life and wonder if I truly love God and care about people, I hope I'm found guilty of both. But it isn't words alone that define us. Did I give a thirsty person a drink? Did I visit the lonely, go visit people in hospitals, clothe the naked...

James said religion that is pure is basically keeping ourselves unstained from the world and visiting orphans and widows in their need. That isn't a very complex formula, but it breaks down the Christian message into the basics. Do good when you can and avoid evil.

People tend to judge outwardly, and my point is that Christians throughout the ages have done incredible things that touched many lives and not by following formulas. Some of the greatest literature writers in history were Christian, but their stories were not overtly "Christian".

God is a creator. And we were made in his image. But we were also told much more in the New Testament, which focuses on Christ, namely in John chapter one that the world was made by him. Paul tells us that all things were made through Christ and for him...whether visible or invisible" That covers a lot of territory, the Universe and every sub-atomic particle.

Sorry for the length. But this is important, and I'm glad you asked about the bounds of creativity that God allows.

God in his wisdom made all trees. Romans 1 says that we can clearly see God through what he has made. Jesus told us to consider the lillies and consider the sparrows. So nature teaches us about God, and therefore people who've never read a Bible can correctly extrapolite a certain degree of spiritual truth by simply keeping their eyes and ears open. They can look at mountains, forests, stars and realize some spiritual truth. Chinese proverbs may not be scripture, but many come pretty close to the same points Solomon made. Why? According to Solomon wisdom isn't hiding in some back room, it's crying out from the streets. All that hear will come away with something of value, whether they know the Gospel or not. The Gospel is not all that God says, it is a very specific thing that we believe God says.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus begins by addressing attitudes, values, and priorities. Most have heard this, "Blessed are the pure in heart..." and it was here that Jesus later refers to learning of God through looking at nature, "...consider the sparrows...God feeds them..."

In creating, God made trees. No doubt the Father loves the Son supremely. Yet God the father did not draw a cross on every tree to prove he loved his Son. The trees were made for him. Birds were made for him.

God the Father did not write scriptures on the hills- well at least not overt ones. Yet, everything is for Christ and so much so that Jesus said the very stones would cry out in praise. It was all created through Christ, for Christ. Paul didn't say "Think only Christian thoughts" he said to think on whatever was good, lovely, nobel...etc." I can think about Dolphins. That may eventually lead to praise and worship. I can think about Eagles. My point is that it is not unspiritual to enjoy music, art, movies, anything that is uplifting. Sure, there are bounds here, but God gave us many things to appreciate.

We risk becoming boring and Cliche unless we understand that all of creation is about Christ, because he is the author of all things. We were told we can enjoy all the earth. "Love not the world"- is a terribly misunderstood scripture. The word translated "world" here was not about God's creation, it was about "adornments"- not the stuff that God declared "good". We were told to love ALL men (male and female). How could God tell us to hate mankind. "For God so LOVED the world..."

If we draw a lovely tree and not one scripture is mentioned, is it an unspiritual painting? Not at all. Look at how ornate the Temple decor was. Fruit, vines...etc. God filled it with art, with color. It was not a drab lackluster building. God commissioned artists/craftsmen in the priesthood, and implied he gave them all their artistic abilities.

I don't have to write a book about Christ for it to be a spiritual book, because Jesus talked about all aspects of life. I can have faithfulness as the core message, or love, or hope. It can be a story about a father and two sons. Honestly, if a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, my focus should be on being a good tree. Then the fruit will come naturally. If I can't be a good tree it doesn't matter how many references to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ I can fit into the book, it can be a terrible book that leads people astray or misrepresents the God I love.

Frankly, my book is very spiritual. It's just not about the Gospel- and not that there are no elements contained anywhere in the story, like sacrificial love, but that isn't really the motive for which I wrote it. God sees my motives and only he knows whether they're good.

Nateskate said:

Actually I was saying something quite different.

Click to expand...

Ok, so that would be a no? I'm still not clear on what definition you're using, then.

The reason I asked is that I think there are a couple of different definitions floating around in this thread, and I realized I'm not sure which one the original question was about.

My definition, more or less, would be that Christian fantasy is fantasy that's informed by a Christian worldview. From a publishing or marketing perspective, a lot of what I would put into that category probably wouldn't be distinguished from any other fantasy. But now I'm not sure that's what Brian was asking about.

I think we're more or less in agreement, just maybe using terms differently.

If I may, I tend to agree with the "informed by a Christian world view" statement. As a corollary, C.S. Lewis in God in the Dock opined that we need fewer books on theology and more books on science, art, etc. with an embedded underlying Christian world view (paraphrased - it's in the chapter on apologetics). The message is more subtle and isn't couched in traditional Christian vernacular, but there's no question its presupposition is Christian; that is, of course, to the Christian. Although Lewis doesn't include fiction in his comment--didn't fit the context--I think he'd agree. Certainly his fiction supports the notion (e.g., The Great Divorce as well as the Chronicles). Such works are great witnessing tools if followed up.

Laughs- I'm sure we probably do agree. My answers, which are over-answers are directed way beyond the questions, and to everyone who reads over our shoulders. A part of me wants to stir up thought.

This issue has many sides. But mostly there are two sides that Christian Writers consider- 1) Marketing- what audience am I speaking to? 2) Spiritual- what value does it have in the weight of eternity.

Christian marketing can be very much like secular music, run by non-creative people who are second-guessing trends from a lawyer's perspective. (Not all) When I make decisions it's not based on what these people think, so I've never really considered marketing my story to a Christian market. I don't think they'd know what to do with it. That doesn't make it unspiritual or evil. On the contrary, it is very spiritual and my intentions are to say things through the story that have a profound impact on the world.

On Eternal Value: Paul delineated the value of our works even further by indicating much that we do can be "Wood, hay and stubble" vs. "Precious stones." There will be many published people who will find out in eternity that what they've done did more harm than good or no good at all. It was a waste of paper and time. Other people's works will impact eternity itself. Generations will be touched.

There is a monolithic "Christian Marketing Machine" out there which may pump out equal bits worthless junk and precious treasures. Maybe much of it is good, but terribly redundant. "I've read this before, and before, and what's the use..."

These labels- Christian Music, Christian Art, Christian Fantasy- can be as uninspired as some pop music, not for lack of creativity, but because marketers tell people what sells and unless you do that, you can't find a place at the table. That thinking inspires predictable pablum where the same stories are rehashed over and over.

Here's my thoughts. The writer of Hebrews upbraided the readers because they were in Christian Elementary school, constantly delving into the same elemetary principles- spiritual milk and no spiritual meat.

Entire churches and ministeries, even some that impress people, are nothing more than elementary schools, because all they do is find another way to say what everybody already knows.

God is deep. Wisdom is deep. Truth is deep. Do I write Christian Fantasy? - not by some people's labels. But if I am a Christian, is it unChristian fantasy because it doesn't have a Gospel Message? If I give a cup of cold water to a thirsty person, do I have to preach the Gospel at that moment for me to have done a good deed? Not at all. If I can't love for love's sake, then I am actually manipulative, doing everything for some payoff. I give water because people are thirsty. But whatever I do out of love is entirely spiritual, for John said that God is love. Whenever we truly love, we are in some way connecting to God, even if we're doctrinally ignorant at that point. I don't espouse doctrinal ignorance, but the point is that Jesus knows a Good Samaratan (who was not a religious person) when he sees him.

So I don't worry if my story fits a label. All that matters in the long run is whether it's worthless or precious, whether it has some eternal value or none. I have no doubts elements of my story will be thought provoking. The trick was making it entertaining too. Provoking thought comes easy, because I do that by nature. Developing the writing skills to get it all on paper was the hardest part. If that's done, and I do my part, the marketing aspect will take care of itself.

AnnieColleen said:

Ok, so that would be a no? I'm still not clear on what definition you're using, then.

The reason I asked is that I think there are a couple of different definitions floating around in this thread, and I realized I'm not sure which one the original question was about.

My definition, more or less, would be that Christian fantasy is fantasy that's informed by a Christian worldview. From a publishing or marketing perspective, a lot of what I would put into that category probably wouldn't be distinguished from any other fantasy. But now I'm not sure that's what Brian was asking about.

I think we're more or less in agreement, just maybe using terms differently.

Click to expand...

Nateskate,

You noted: "I have no doubts elements of my story will be thought provoking. The trick was making it entertaining too. Provoking thought comes easy, because I do that by nature. Developing the writing skills to get it all on paper was the hardest part."

I empathize, and am curious how you couch your thought provoking themes in your story. Does it come out through character dialog, internal monologue, narrative, or a combination of these? I, too, want my theological nuggets to be subtle, but identifiable. I prefer embedding them in dialog, but that's probably because I prefer dialog to narrative (in balance) and find that it comes easiest to write.

Just curious...

BruceJ said:

Nateskate,

You noted: "I have no doubts elements of my story will be thought provoking. The trick was making it entertaining too. Provoking thought comes easy, because I do that by nature. Developing the writing skills to get it all on paper was the hardest part."

I empathize, and am curious how you couch your thought provoking themes in your story. Does it come out through character dialog, internal monologue, narrative, or a combination of these? I, too, want my theological nuggets to be subtle, but identifiable. I prefer embedding them in dialog, but that's probably because I prefer dialog to narrative (in balance) and find that it comes easiest to write.

Just curious...

Click to expand...

Hi Bruce. I'm thinking how to answer this? For six years God opened doors for me to speak to an international audience that included people from many cultures. This included Orthodox Jews, Muslims, atheists, most likely animists, Wickens, countless people that had no interest in Christianity. Well, the doors never closed. I just wanted to write a book and changed focus.

In that time, I saw myself as a guest in someone else's house, and tried to choose topics that I figured would bless the most people. So, I talked about relationships, emotional healing, and some frank spiritual topics that I knew would interest a broad audience.

Elements of my story are pure entertainment, fantastical. I'd written stories for friends before, and when enough encouraged me to publish one particular fantasy, I finally decided to try.

I had written much over the years including stories with spiritual dimmensions to them, teachings on things such as why God allows suffering; but these were written aimed at a Christian audience, which is why there was no "Christ-figure" or "Gospel message".

I'd written one story about the devestating effects of bitterness, which is anger turned inward. The story I'd written on this subject wound up on the internet, and I was told it was being passed through prisons- to my surprise. I'd heard of people from other parts of the country having been impacted by it. Ten years passed since I wrote that, people tell me they've kept copies of it.

Some points of my story are obvious. Don't stick your fork in a toaster. But other elements were just for those who like delving deep. There is an entire study on symbols in scripture, the meaning of numbers. Those familiar with these will get things other readers will never get. But the point was that the story was written to be a straight-forward story as well, to be enjoyed by those who simply want to be entertained.

There is the obvious story, the obvious spiritual elements, such as the impact of bitterness and hard-heartedness. But there's stuff that some people will have to dig deep to comprehend, like why the house of Wisdom keeps changing shapes...

Nate

Nate,

Sounds like quite a calling. I'd be interested in seeing some of your work. Can you refer me to a source for ordering? Thanks.

Roger J Carlson said:

I can't speak for Nate, but I've always had a problem with the concept of Christian Fantasy. If Christ isn't in it and it's not an allegory (or parable, if you will), what's to differentiate it from any other fantasy that has a religious theme? What makes it Christian?

Click to expand...

I think what makes what you're describing, Christian, is the message that is being presented throughout a story. It's not so much the idea of Christ and His work that qualifies something as Christian, but the overall intent and the overall message of the work.

I believe personally that if a Christian writer can present the truth of any portion of Scripture--not just the Gospel--in a way that reaches the audience and helps them to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ, then the story has done its work in their lives.

Do you remember a statement that, I think, the Apostle Paul said? It goes something like this:

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God brought forth the increase."

I don't remember where that Scripture is located, but if you want me to I'll be sure to look it up and quote the exact text for you later on.

The idea is that if you plant a spiritual seed in someone's life, then you've done your work. As a writer, I find that the seed does not necessarily have to be the Gospel itself, but something that can prepare people for a later encounter with the Gospel.

So my personal take on whether or not a Fantasy is Christian, comes from the message it presents, and not so much from the idea of an allegory of Christ or the Church. This latter version of Christian Fantasy is quite legitimate, IMO, but I don't think it's the only kind of Christian Fantasy out there.


I hope this helps.

My spiritual writings ended about five years ago. My inspirational messages continued until roughly three years ago, but that was audio, and I don't know if they were ever recorded. A church posted the writings on the internet for three years. When they changed the website format, they could have reposted them, but I was thinking of compiling them into a book, so they left them off.

Honestly, my first thoughts on writing were "Freely give as you have been freely given..." - kind of a Keith Green philosophy. It wasn't until a few years ago I realized that getting published could open more doors, and I thought about doing a book.

There are doors open for that, but when I decided on writing an Epic Fantasy instead of trying to get Christian teachings published, I put off the former.

BruceJ said:

Nate,

Sounds like quite a calling. I'd be interested in seeing some of your work. Can you refer me to a source for ordering? Thanks.

Click to expand...