Rummy's Out

greglondon said:

Besides, as of March 30, WMD's weren't in Syria. Rumsfeld himself said on national TV on 30 March 2003,

We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

Are you saying Rumsfeld launched a war based on bad intelligence? That he lied?

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let me just toss something out here - I'm sure it'll be ignored and trashed, but I have to just ask it.

is it possible that the Iraq scientists lied to Saddam about WMDs? If I knew that reporting a negative result would result in my being fed into a wood chipper still alive I might be tempted to fudge the results. I'll tell my boss that sure, we've got all we need for WMD's and the gas bombs are ready to go at a moment's notice. Just don't kill me.

Saddam believes this news and keeps bragging. Friends tell friends who tell agents who can't verify it because the scientists are the ones with the paperwork. And they're not going to voluntarily admit that they've been lying through their teeth for years, staying alive as long as they produce some sort of result. It may not be nuclear power, but a little spark or fizz and everyone's happy. And alive.

the US intel gets this and believes it. They tell the President who, in turn, believes it since he's not prepared to parachute into Baghdad and check it out for himself.

his advisors believe it. See, I'm not ready to believe in the dictatorship theory just yet - I'm going on advisors having to advise the President still. Otherwise just walk out to the Press room and have a chat - they'll listen.

the President sends in the troops who find... nothing. Of course not, the scientists were lying to save their lives. They didn't care about an imminent invasion; they were worried about being tortured and killed if they didn't produce results. Saddam believes them and thus it's a vicious circle.

but, hey... I'm just a stupid Canuck who's tired of the conspiracy theories. Maybe I might have a better view of your government than you do because I'm looking at it from outside.

*shrugs*

The only conspiracy that US intelligence found was that of the people coming forward with intelligence about the existence and location of WMD's in Iraq, a high number were coming from the Iraqi National Council, a group of Iraqis who fled Iraq while Saddam was in power and knew if they kept saying "Iraq has WMD's" long enough, the US would go in after him, and then the Iraqi National Council could become king of Iraq.

For the love of god, move on people.

"There were WMD's, there weren't WMD's, everyone in the Bush Administration told the truth, everything in the Bush administration lied, anything, everything, I'm down, put me down!"
George Constanza."

Feel free to continue.


Thank you.

greglondon said:

The only conspiracy that US intelligence found was that of the people coming forward with intelligence about the existence and location of WMD's in Iraq, a high number were coming from the Iraqi National Council, a group of Iraqis who fled Iraq while Saddam was in power and knew if they kept saying "Iraq has WMD's" long enough, the US would go in after him, and then the Iraqi National Council could become king of Iraq.

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Thank you for your first reply to me in 72 hours that wasn't belittling, demeaning, or involve name-calling.

is it possible that the Iraq scientists lied to Saddam about WMDs?

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possibly, but once out of Iraq, and being debriefed by CIA officers, they would have no reason to continue the lie. As part of the debriefing, their identity would normally be concealed by a codename, their statements would be filtered into reports, and double checked with evidence and other debriefings.

None of the scientists have said there were any WMD program going on by March 2003.

Joe Unidos said:

Yeah, go easy on Clary. Today is a very difficult day for him.

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To be honest, the war in Iraq is very abstract to me. I know some guys who've gone. I've got some relatives over there. A kid from lclary's school died doing stupid sh*t over there. But it doesn't affect me in my day-to-day.

The Patriot Act doesn't affect me. Tax cuts have barely affected me. Gas prices hurt, but not so badly that it bothered me.

The only issue that affects my day-to-day and makes my life miserable is illegal immigration, and its massive effect on the Los Angeles infrastructure, from traffic to health care to school funding. California just voted to DOUBLE its long-term debt from 40 billion to 80 billion, with almost half of that money going to pay for illegal immigrant assistance.

With the shift in power comes a shift in house leadership, and a large number of the leadership positions in the Republican house had been filled by Californians. That's the only reason why we were able to start pushing stronger border security laws through.

My biggest fear for the next 2 years is that Pelosi and the La Raza-supporting California democrats in congress will start pushing massive illegal-immigrant support legislation. To me, this would be the worst of all possible worlds.

Joe Unidos said:

Thanks, thrilly.

Your ability to laugh off the the fact the we send hundreds of thousands of young men and women into harm's way because of either a lie or a mistake tells us how you really feel about their sacrifice. I mean, fvck em, right? It's just an amusing game of geopolitical chess.

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They knew they were pawns when they swore their oath, Joe. Don't pity them just on account of them not pitying themselves.

The last time I checked the election is over, the Democrats have won. Give it a rest!

Joe Unidos said:

Thanks, thrilly.

Your ability to laugh off the the fact the we send hundreds of thousands of young men and women into harm's way because of either a lie or a mistake tells us how you really feel about their sacrifice. I mean, fvck em, right? It's just an amusing game of geopolitical chess.

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Well, thank you, sir. One of the nicest things you've ever said to me.

Originally Posted by Joe Unidos

Thanks, thrilly.

Your ability to laugh off the the fact the we send hundreds of thousands of young men and women into harm's way because of either a lie or a mistake tells us how you really feel about their sacrifice. I mean, fvck em, right? It's just an amusing game of geopolitical chess.

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dclary said

They knew they were pawns when they swore their oath, Joe. Don't pity them just on account of them not pitying themselves.

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Didn't Yoda say the same thing to Luke in episode 4?

I love this Robert Gates, dude.

'Nuff said.

the tide has changed and rumsfeld is no dummie, rather resigning than being dragged out in the process - even the military wants him out and now bush is officially a lame duck theres no place for him - and the men and women serving now are not 'just pawns' - they are husbands and wives and sons and daughters and dont ever forget that and we owe them and their families to get them out of there, out of this big uselss mess in iraq

This is a good day. I'm almost in a good mood.

Some other good things happened to me today, too. Things I had waited for quite a long time.

The winds of change are sweet.

Diane Feinstein is demanding a timeline for Iraq pull out. Essentially saying anything less will prevent confirmation of the new SecDef.

Hooray for the end to partisan politics!!!

MattW said:

Diane Feinstein is demanding a timeline for Iraq pull out. Essentially saying anything less will prevent confirmation of the new SecDef.

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She does realize that the Republicans control Congress for two more months and can use a scorched earth policy leaving Congress null and void for a century?

The Republicans can go ahead and confirm without democratic help.

Unless they fillibuster.

Please do, democrats. Please fillibuster the confirmation of Gates and keep Rummy on the job.

This could be the fastest implosion of a newly elected Congress in history.

Way to overreach right off the bat, Feinstein. I disavow all earlier statements regarding you.

Thank you.

"Okay, we'll keep Rummy."
What Bush should say.

Diane Feinstein is demanding a timeline for Iraq pull out. Essentially saying anything less will prevent confirmation of the new SecDef. Hooray for the end to partisan politics!!!

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Hey, the neocons got us into this mess mainly because Rumsfeld was a "6 months and we're out" fantasy writer. Now you're crying because someone wants a SecDef that has an actual plan on how to win this mess you got us into?

For those just tuning in, "stay the course" isn't a military plan, its a political dodge. Suck it up and get with reality. Win the war or get the f out.

Next thing I'll be hearing neocons crying that they can't pretend global warming is a myth anymore. Wah!

sheesh

dclary said:

To be honest, the war in Iraq is very abstract to me. I know some guys who've gone. I've got some relatives over there. A kid from lclary's school died doing stupid sh*t over there. But it doesn't affect me in my day-to-day.

The Patriot Act doesn't affect me. Tax cuts have barely affected me. Gas prices hurt, but not so badly that it bothered me.

The only issue that affects my day-to-day and makes my life miserable is illegal immigration, and its massive effect on the Los Angeles infrastructure, from traffic to health care to school funding. California just voted to DOUBLE its long-term debt from 40 billion to 80 billion, with almost half of that money going to pay for illegal immigrant assistance.

With the shift in power comes a shift in house leadership, and a large number of the leadership positions in the Republican house had been filled by Californians. That's the only reason why we were able to start pushing stronger border security laws through.

My biggest fear for the next 2 years is that Pelosi and the La Raza-supporting California democrats in congress will start pushing massive illegal-immigrant support legislation. To me, this would be the worst of all possible worlds.

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And you see, that's what makes America so great - the diversity. The one thing that bothers you in your day to day doesn't even make my list.

The things that bothered you are all high on my list. Does it make you wrong & me right? Nope. Does it make you right & me wrong? Nope. Just proves that we're two different people on two different paths.

We need leaders who if they can't please all of the people, they can at least please the majority of the people. 50/50, 49/51 just doesn't cut it. That's not America united - and that's what needs to change.

Well said, Unique. And I'd sure like that leader to aim for like... 70-80.

dclary said:

Well said, Unique. And I'd sure like that leader to aim for like... 70-80.

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Let's you and I go for 98%.

Of course we can't please the wackadoodle far far left but by 2024 they should be in their rightful place on the scrap heap of failed ideologies.

I am declaring either a war or jihad on wackadoodles when we take office. I'm not sure which. It will depend on who wins the war on terror.

dclary said:

I am declaring either a war or jihad on wackadoodles when we take office. I'm not sure which. It will depend on who wins the war on terror.

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Well, I plan on increasing military funding so we can comfortably fight two wars in two theaters.

But hopefully both the jihadists ad the wackadoodles will be sitting on the smoking remains of a failed ideology on the scrap heap of history's ...uh..failed ideologies.

Thank you.

so, if the Dems hadn't rolled in with such a strong showing in the House and a resurgence in the Senate would Rumsie still be out?

Or would it have been "stay the course, donnie's doin' fine"?