Some action help please

Elodie-Caroline · Nov 7, 2006

Hi,
I am in the middle of a story but need a bit of help with a small part of it if anyone is prepared to help me with it please.

A woman has been accosted in a shopping mall by a man who is set out to kill her, he's not a very bright person, but he is set on revenge. He has come up behind her with a knife and has it pointed in to her back, so as to make her walk through the shopping mall and then on to his car... But, unbeknown to this man, this woman has a bodyguard, whom also has a group of undercover ex commando type of guys with him. The bodyguard has ahd to put the women out in public as bait to catch this man, so isn't actually accompanying her at the time. The bodyguard is dressed up as a city gent with briefcase etc and has to tackle this man before he can do any harm to the woman in question.

What I need is a way that the man can be apprehended without hurting the woman, but it also has to be realisitc and not like something that we'd see in some Hollywood blockbuster.

So does anyone have any ideas please?

Thank you... Ellie

greglondon · Nov 7, 2006

bodyguard opens briefcase,

He pulls out a paintball gun modified to use balls packed with pepper spray. Police and swat use these sometimes. They crank up the velocity of teh ball, so the impact hurts like hell (and if you've ever been shot by a normal velocity paintball, you'll know it already hurts enough to leave a bruise the size of your fist) and then the pepperspray or whatver takes them down a notch.

This combined with element of surprise could put some distance between the guy and the woman, and then the bodyguard can close the remaining distance and takedown the hand with the knife with some variation of aikido.

Elodie-Caroline · Nov 7, 2006

LOL Thank you very much Greg. Reading the bit about taking a paintball gun out of the briefcase made me laugh, but this could work... This story is set in the south of France, would they have pepper spray there, do you know?

So when said bodyguard has the better of the nutter, how best do you think his cohorts dispose of the nutter? You can really go to town on this part, he has really asked for it! lol

Ellie

greglondon · Nov 7, 2006

Oh, you want to waste the baddie? I thought we were doing a disarm/capture.

wordmonkey · Nov 7, 2006

I don't wanna come off as mean or harsh, but isn't this your job to work out?

I mean, I tend to brainstorm ideas. Often I'll bounce an idea off my wife. Occasionally she will give me some feedback, but more often than not me expressing the idea I have vocally is enough for me to get a better handle on it, whether it works, whether it just sounds dumb, that kinda thing. But the idea comes from me.

I could list a half dozen solutions to your problem, but this is your book. Now if you'd come here with, "I have this idea for using the brielfcase in this way," or "I have this idea for how my bodyguard can tackle the stalker," followed by "Does this sound plausible?" you'd be brainstorming and working from your own ideas.

If you have a lack of specific knowledge, like self-defensive tactics, body-guard tactics, etc. - do some research. There are private security companies you can contact and get a bundle of info from. There are handbooks and manuals for the military that will give you an amazing amount of hand-to-hand combat techniques. Go interview a policewo/man. A cop on the beat needs to know how to handle him/herself in such situations.

And ultimately, if you go this route, you'll gather the kind of info that IS real and ISN'T Hollywood.

Like I said, wasn't trying to be mean, but there really is no replacement for solid research.

greglondon · Nov 7, 2006

This story is set in the south of France, would they have pepper spray there, do you know?

Don't know if it's legal. Is the bodyguard one to follow the law?
He might have it anyway.

If the baddie has a knife to someone's back, all you need is to distract him long enough to tackle him. Once he's away from the woman, it's a straight fight.

Historical note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Free_Concert
Having a gun in a knife fight doesn't mean you'll win the fight if you don't know what you're doing. The baddie having a knife doesn't mean the bodyguard will lose or has to do anything amazing to win. He just has to know what he's doing and act with purpose and speed.

an excommando should already know hand-to-hand, so this shouldn't be a problem.

greglondon · Nov 7, 2006

I don't wanna come off as mean or harsh

You did.

rtilryarms · Nov 7, 2006

wordmonkey said:
I don't wanna come off as mean or harsh, but isn't this your job to work out?

Let's be reasonable.
This forum was created for people who run into scenes and ideas of which they haven't any experience.

Think about it, without any martial arts or other self defense training, an amateur would not be able to know that there are specific moves for this situation. Do you think they should just make something up? Or ask an expert?

Absolutewrite has more than a few advanced fighters as well as military, FBI and CIA personnel, retired and active.

This is the perfect place to gather the realistic information.

I will post a short scene in a while.

wordmonkey · Nov 7, 2006

Slight brain fart on my part. I forgot we were in the ask the expert section.

My bad.

Baby due in two weeks, lack of sleep, anticipation, and the imminent invasion of in-laws who have strange ideas of helping have me somewhat in a spin.

Though I stand by the comment about talking to cops and seeking out military manuals (many have diagrams as well making it easy for you to work out what is going on).

Elodie-Caroline · Nov 7, 2006

Greg,
My bodyguard man wants to disarm the bloke in the shopping mall, but his main aim is to save the woman. However, once she is out of harm's way and he has taken her home, the baddie will be taken off somewhere and dealt with by his old buddies, justice is going to be served properly this time, this guy's already killed the woman's hubby and unborn baby, which he only got 8 years in prison for. Thank you for the link too, I shall have a look at that once I've finished this reply

Wordmonkey,
I don't think you're mean at all, I saw someone write on another forum the other day that he wanted to be a writer, but that he didn't know what to write. I kind of told him that if he didn't know what to write, then why do it, that to be a writer just for the sake of it doesn't go, so I understand where you're coming from. However, I had been thinking and thinking over this scene for a couple of months now, it's only a small scene in a bigger story after all. I was going to ask on here ages ago because I really felt stuck with this bit, I kept putting the asking thing off. Strange thing is though, once I'd written all of this on here and went away, I got an idea for a way of distracting the baddie... and it doesn't involve the paintball gun lol.

Rtilryarms,
Thank you very much. I'm afraid at being 5 ft tall I've never really got in to any combat with people... besides living with an alcoholic and violent man when I was young and stupid, the only action I've ever done to anyone myself, is to hit my husband with my handbag when he annoyed me lol

Ellie

wordmonkey · Nov 7, 2006

Elodie-Caroline said:
Wordmonkey,
I don't think you're mean at all, I saw someone write on another forum the other day that he wanted to be a writer, but that he didn't know what to write. I kind of told him that if he didn't know what to write, then why do it, that to be a writer just for the sake of it doesn't go, so I understand where you're coming from. However, I had been thinking and thinking over this scene for a couple of months now, it's only a small scene in a bigger story after all. I was going to ask on here ages ago because I really felt stuck with this bit, I kept putting the asking thing off. Strange thing is though, once I'd written all of this on here and went away, I got an idea for a way of distracting the baddie... and it doesn't involve the paintball gun lol.

Lack of sleep, grape peeling and foot massaging all lead to me letting the lid off my inner cranky-pants. It actually sounds like you did what I do with my wife. Once I actually let the problem out of my head, solutions appear. Of course, I can also defend my creativity because the ideas my wife suggests are usually so bad, they're funny. Curioulsy they do usually lead me to something else.

Go figure.

All that said, I have a book somewhere that is something like an SAS survival handbook. It's a consumer version, not the real thing, and I picked it up on clearance, but it has all kinds of things in it that I'm sure you could use. Hand-to-hand combat, surviving in the wild, basic espionage tips (like always parking in a space so you're facing out - reversing out of a parking space takes onger than driving). It's basically cram-packed full of the the stuff that you can add in, it gives an authentic feel without getting too heavy on the specifics that would drag down the prose.

There are probably websites too.

Another book is "Inside Delta Force" by Eric Haney (I think that's his name). It is basically about the training and a couple of missions about the US version of the SAS. I would suggest that as a great way to give you an idea of how to deal with hostage situations, terrorists, and the kinda background someone in the bodyguard business might well have done before going private.

greglondon · Nov 7, 2006

My bodyguard man wants to disarm the bloke in the shopping mall, but his main aim is to save the woman. However, once she is out of harm's way and he has taken her home, the baddie will be taken off somewhere

He could disarm the man in the mall using an aikido maneuver called ikkyo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido

actually, there are several maneuvars. Some can lock the arm without causing the man to fall, which would avoid extra attention.

I studied akido a couple years long, long ago. It is very effective for disarming an attacker, and defending against an unarmed attacker. Unfortunately, I can't recall any of the vocabulary. If you were standing next to me, I could show you, but I don't know how to 'splain it over text.

Ed Rogers · Nov 7, 2006

Walk up behind the guy, grab his hair , pull him backward. After he hits the floor, kick him in the ribs a few times. Take the lady by the arm and walk out leaving the bad guy to your buddies. He can do all that with one hand.

rtilryarms · Nov 7, 2006

You set the scene that the perpetrator has the knife in her back.
That is good news which would mean that the perp likely would not have advanced skills himself. He would, however, have his other arm wrapped around her throat and he would be close up making a knife grab or a disarming blow nearly impossible. The knife, held this way, would be in the small of her back with the hand holding it thumb up.
This situation calls for distraction for escape and a redirect of attention / priorities.

Tackling would not be smart because violent contact would actually cause a stabbing likelihood.

The Bodyguard’s only move is to position himself directly behind him and grab both ankles, lifting and pulling with all his might back to himself.
Instinctively the man would try to break his fall but with the knife held the way he did it usually comes loose. Either way contacted is broken from the Lady from the knife. The Man would not, however, let go of the neck with the other arm. She would have to spin opposite the arm or the Bodyguard would need to do further, more violent moves.

I’d have her spin out screaming.

The finale of the scene depends on what you want the Bodyguard to do. He can kill him, beat the crap out of him or fight him off half-heartedly while the woman makes good on her escape. Then he can leave at his leisure and join her later.

Just an idea.

greglondon · Nov 7, 2006

Not sure if a firearm is available.
A man with a knife to a woman's back may become compliant when
a man puts a gun to his back.

meh, never mind. you said the guy with the knife already killed a couple of people.

ideagirl · Nov 7, 2006

Maybe you should watch La Femme Nikita again!

Or other French movies with commando types in them... that might give you ideas.

I don't know if you need this, but if you do, I lived in France for several years and am fluent in French. So if you have any questions about this story that are specific to France, throw them my way...

Elodie-Caroline · Nov 7, 2006

Wordmonkey,
No worries, I'm cranky every morning when I wake up, just be thankful it was afternoon that I answered you lol

It's funny how once you voice something, even though in writing, that you can actually come up with a solution isn't it; like you, I quite often ask my hubby something and then answer it myself straight after.
I will look out for reading material to find some ways of the baddie being apprehended. I have the way for him to be taken off guard now, just got to think of the best way for the baddie to be taken down now.
Hey maybe when you've finished peeling Grapes, you could come and make me a cup of tea? lol

Greg,
I may be moving to London soon, I hope I'm never standing near you when you decide to practice some of your Akido! hahaha

The baddie killed the other two people many years beforehand, he's just come out of prison to finish off whom he wanted to kill the first time round.

Ed,
Lol, the baddie actually has long hair too, good idea!

Rtilryarms,
Nah, he doesn't have his other arm around her throat, that would look too suspicious to everyone else in the shopping mall, he's too much of a ***** to do something that obvious, he wouldn't want it to look like he was doing something bad in case someone tried to stop him. He could have his other hand around her arm I suppose?
The bodyguard is going to leave with the woman once the baddie is on the ground; but his ex commando kind of buddies will be there to drag him off and do their justice to him... maybe somewhere in a farmyard, they could always feed his body to the Pigs that way.

Ideagirl,
Thank you very much for your kind offer; you lucky lady to be living in France! Re; Nikita, my man gets killed in that, I hardly ever watch the films he gets killed in, when I do, I go to the bathroom when he's going to get 'it' lol

rtilryarms · Nov 7, 2006

Elodie-Caroline said:
Nah, he doesn't have his other arm around her throat,

Then I would keep it simple with a violent tackle. Nothing fancy. Throw the briefcase for a distraction maybe but it's a simple takedown situation.

Food Writer · Nov 7, 2006

((((((hugs))))) to word monkey. Some day when your teenagers are AWOL and probably drinking beer and behaving badly, you'll look back at these two weeks and feel quite fondly about being 9 months pregnant (I know I do, ugh THREE TEENS here, but man are they cool, honestly, just trying to hard to be grown up)

Okay - hey, try to dance your way through the scene as the victim. Maybe if she gets a little slashed it will add drama and tension. Not serious, just a little blood or something scary.

Or a mall security guard with DOG could help out, and I definitely would not want the dog hurt at all.

that's my best right now.....d'oh.
Pam

greglondon · Nov 7, 2006

The baddie killed the other two people many years beforehand, he's just come out of prison to finish off whom he wanted to kill the first time round.

Yeah, you want something like akido. Commandos learn moves similar to akido but without the Far East martial art dojo thing going on. Basically, it would be a move that would start by getting the baddie off balance ever so slightly while going for his knife hand, then the guard would move his body into the baddy's space to keep him off balance, followed by a turn, twist, and flick of the baddy's wrist/arm. the baddy's joints would be shooting with pain. The knife would drop immediately. And the guard could walk him out quietly and quickly to a car and off they go. If they were using the woman as bait, they should have a quiet and fast getaway planned. Maybe another person driving the car to pull up to the mall as they exit.

The disarm maneuvar would be a rather fluid motion that would take maybe a few seconds start to finish. probably write it up in two sentences at most. feel free to use any words I've posted here if they work for you.

Rabe · Nov 8, 2006

Elodie-Caroline said:
Nah, he doesn't have his other arm around her throat, that would look too suspicious to everyone else in the shopping mall, he's too much of a ***** to do something that obvious, he wouldn't want it to look like he was doing something bad in case someone tried to stop him. He could have his other hand around her arm I suppose?

My question in all of this - in the way you've been describing it is - why doesn't she just run away?

Sure, having a knife in her back is bad...but it's not a gun, enough distance and she's clear of danger. If she were to act like she's compliant and then a sudden burst of speed away from him and this entire thing is gone. Reading the description of how the scene is to go, I can't think of how I - as a reader - would believe the danger of the scenario. This is a case of a character being dumb just to advance the story.

Also, if the bodyguard and company are putting her in a public place - like a mall - as bait, why is it that the guy is allowed to get close to her in the first place and not taken down as he makes his approach while she's whisked safely away?

If I'm being honest here, this scenario just doesn't seem to have a workable and believable approach.

Rabe...

Elodie-Caroline · Nov 8, 2006

Phew! Where do I start here?
Firstly, thank you very much Rtilryarms, Greglondon and Foodwriter for all of your very helpful advice, you have given me a lot to mull over here and a lot of new ideas, even if my scene doesn't end up how I had always planned it to. For everyone that tried to help me, you are all very kind and I truly appreciate it

Gabe,
Right, the girl can't run away because she's slightly disabled from the last time he tried to kill her, anyone who's been reading the story will already know about this.
I'm sorry that my scenario doesn't come up to your very high standards, but hey, I'm blonde and fluffy and a girly-girl, I love pink and romance etc, I don't DO violence ok; but I can promise you that I'll work it all out for the best in the end.
My characters could have no morals and no heart, the bodyguard's buddies could go and drag the baddie out of his hiding place and kill him... But, I like tidy endings. There's nothing that makes me more mad about a film or book etc when people get killed and you don't find out about how the law deals with it and what happens to the people who do the killing, even if it's in self-defence. The bodyguard wouldn't want the woman to think he's a cold-blooded killer, the woman, though frightened out of her head wouldn't be able to live with herself if her stalker killer-nutcase was killed in cold blood. My characters have real feelings and morals.
Also, since when *didn't* writers add mini-plots and sub-characters to advance their stories to make them better for their readers?

Ellie

a tree of night · Nov 8, 2006

Am I understanding this correctly :

They're still inside the mall. The attacker is trying to get her outside inconspicuously and the bodyguard, who wants to go a little above and beyond just protecting her needs to get the assailant outside as well so his buddies can do a little job of their own?

If I'm reading that correctly, you've got a nice opportunity for her to escape going through the doors and then the guard has a pretty clear shot. If she's not physically able, there are still several options once they're collectively out of the public view :

* The guard can throw his briefcase as a distraction and push the woman out of harm's way if she hasn't taken off on her own.

* If the guard has a good angle, he can :

- use the briefcase to disarm or at least block the knife

- execute a simple trip from any variety of martial arts backgrounds, with a hold on the knife hand. Trips, in my limited experience, usually work to one side or the other (occasionally backwards, but you need to be face-to-face and right up to the subject). Essentially, you just block one of their legs with yours and pull them to that side. Someone that was well-versed should be able to combine that with grabbing the knife arm so the knife ends up away from the body (face down) and he can follow up with a knee on top of the arm, either dislodging the knife or at least preventing him from swinging it. This scenario is probably the quickest resolution.

Most of those things have been mentioned, but I think you just need to find the one that fits the context to make it realistic.

mommyjo2 · Nov 8, 2006

How about something that damages all of the tendons in the wrist, so he can't hold the knife? Gunshot or taser to the hand/wrist/arm?

There's always the comic book Magneto experience... an electromagnet to pull the knife away?

What if the woman is wearing a rubber lined body armor, and the body guard tasers/electrifies the body armor and the knife becomes electrified?

She could trip/duck between his legs.

Of course, a bullet to the back of the head unexpectedly also would cause him to drop the knife.

A lasso around the neck, pulling him backwards off his feet suddenly?

You asked for something we haven't seen before, not necessarily something easily believable.

Rabe · Nov 8, 2006

mommyjo2 said:
What if the woman is wearing a rubber lined body armor, and the body guard tasers/electrifies the body armor and the knife becomes electrified?

This wouldn't work as the eletricity from a Tazer (or taser) goes from contact to contact. In very minimal cases there is the slight chance of pass through if the contacts aren't firmly connected but if the Tazer is fired within the distance of the leads, then contact will be made and made solidly. Which is one reason why it's safe and effective to use a Tazer in the rain or puddles, because it doesn't ground out in the water. So if the bodyguards shot her (knowing it would be uncomfortable but not lethal) the electricity still wouldn't go through her and into the knife and into the attacker. To help out a visual concept, when officers to Tazer training and volunteer to be hit with one (which I have done twice now along with the stun belt - cause I'm an idiot) they are usually supported on either side by others so they don't face injury on collapse from the discharge of a taser. Yet, those supporting the one being 'tazed' do not wear special protective equipment, clothing. Because the electrical discharge only travels between the points of contact. Rabe...

Some action help please

Planet Wookie techno geek

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Crossbows and Handgonnes

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Crossbows and Handgonnes

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Crossbows and Handgonnes

Food Writer

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the living dead

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