You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation and mo

When did you all realize that you had 'it' ? That thing inside you, the incredible creative talent and vision that allows you to create like no one else in the world. Only a small group of people have it, but I have to imagine a lot of you here do.

I can not precisely pin point when I discovered it, but it's been in the making my entire life, perhaps you are born with it. I made my first short film at age 6, which included a mock city that was set ablaze (I was going through a pyrotechnic stage). At an even younger age my dad and I would watch 'good' films like Kurosawa's Dreams, Metropolsis, Eraserhead,etc. Only recently have I fully realized that I have something special. I can feel it, twisting and turning inside; thoughts, ideas and creative juices just waiting to burst out. I love it.

What about all of you?

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I am really not trying to be insulting, and not to you personally: I realize this is a common idea:

Only a small group of people have it,

Click to expand...

But I do not know how to say this gently.

I find the whole concept of "God given talent possessed by only the elite few" to be a load of crap.

Over and over again I have seen examples where determination, intelligence, application, and mastery of craft have far surpassed protege style talent that was wasted by people who failed to master the forms.

No amount of "native talent" will make up for laziness or lack of mastery in any field, be it painting, singing, dancing, or writing.

Chuck Norris in an interview admitted, "I'm not actor" then went on to say, "The studio and I worked together to develop a character I could portray and basically this is the character I continue to play."

You gotta love honesty like that. And look how many actors, seemly born with superior talent, have not gone the distance because they failed to master their potential niche in the world.

Jimmy Stewart was a consummate actor who could portray any character yet -- "All the public ever seems to want is me being myself," he once said -- And instead of getting into a huff he just smiled and portrayed himself in movie after movie. Potentially greater actors but lessor human beings would have railed against such an "undignified fate."

I remember a romance writer who said in an interview, "I'm certainly not Shakespeare, but a lot of people love to read what I write and I love to write it."

To me that sums it up. Don't worry about the amount of talent you have; Concentrate instead on mastering every detail of the craft; Apply yourself: The results will take care of themselves.

Whatever your talent, no matter how meager, you can surpass those who do not spend the time and energy to develop their skills, no matter how talented they at first appear.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

If you don't have the talent with which to master something, then you're going nowhere.

I could go out in my driveway right now and practice 10 hours a day, every day, for the next 10 years and I'm not ever going to make it to the NBA.

Ever.

Why? Because I don't have the natural, God-given talent to succeed at basketball.

It's not a question of either/or. Having the talent but not working to develop it is a waste of your talent.

Working to develop a talent you don't have is a waste of your time.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I could go out in my driveway right now and practice 10 hours a day, every day, for the next 10 years and I'm not ever going to make it to the NBA.

Click to expand...

The NBA is not the only place to be.

My town alone, with a meager 12,000 plus population has at least a dozen basketball teams sponsored by churches, businesses, etc. One person -- I am convinced of this -- was hired in the office because he would be such an asset to the baseball team. Though I'm no expert on either basketball or baseball I'm sure there are many a skilled player between the best player in my town and the NBA. I'm equally sure many are happy having made the most of the talent they have while people with the potential to play in the NBA did not pursue it.

I personally do not need to be the next Steven Spielberg of movies, the next Stephen King of novelists; I would be quite content to be a low mid-list writer earning a modest living doing what I enjoy. Many writers of all levels of potential skill have merely supplemented their income with prose, even those who had the maximum talent. If that is my future, then I will still be happy with the success I have achieved.

Having the talent but not working to develop it is a waste of your talent.

Click to expand...

I said something similar to a friend of mine who could easily earn a few hundred thousand a year as an artist. His reply was "I'd rather waste my talent than waste my time selling my artistic soul to commercial interests so I can achieve a passable level of mediocrity." He also advised me, "You should quit while you're ahead or you'll wind up a mediocre hack writer churning out slush for the next week's check."

Fact is I'd rather be a mediocre hack writer than no writer at all. My only regret in life is that I gave up writing for any length of time for any reason no matter how noble others might think that reason was.

And I have already achieved more than many with greater initial talent but less dedication to the mastery of craft have achieved.

I've done pretty good for an uneducated no talent half breed bum from the wrong side of the tracks -- And I hope to reenter the field and do better in the future.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

doubleit

sorry, but a lot of the people here do not have 'it'. just isn't the case. not here, not anywhere - including hollywood. i am, however, naturally endowed with inseperation and i use it all the time


zilla

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I agree with you on both points - you can make it without having it, and you can fail even if you do. Nevertheless, if you know how to use this 'power', and understand the industry and buisness you are leaps and bounds ahead of most of the other people.

Personally I do not want to be a mid level writer. Im going all the way or will die trying.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I wish you the best of luck DoubleIT and I hope you go all the way to the top and beyond.

I only ask that you do not denigrate those of us who know we are not the best, accept that we will never be the best, yet are determined to do the best we can with what we have.

And some of us have gone a long long ways. I remember when I was hanging around a college (I may not be college material but I recognize a good source of information when I see one) a professor made the comment that Arthur C. Clarke was a mediocre writer with consummate technical skill.

You know what? I kind of hope that is true. If it is it means having "consummate technical skill" can take you a long ways past the place where I would be happy.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I'm so endowed with inseperation I'm almost a split personality -- Does that count?

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

Actually very, very few writers without talent ever make it as professional screenwriters or pubished novelists.

Actors without talent can sometimes get by on their charisma or sex appeal, writers do not have that luxury. But even though they can, very few do. Chuck Norris and Pam Anderson are the exceptions not the rule - most actors who achieve success are talented actors. And often those without talent, who receive a certain amount of success in a role or two, are unable to parlay it into a sustained career - because they don't have the talent to do so.

As writers, we are judge by our writing. Writers without talent rarely have something on the page that will interest an agent or producer. Writers without talent, generally write bad scripts.

In the cases where it does happen, it is either because the idea itself is so high concept that it over-rides the lack of talent or because someone with clout (be it producer, director or actor) champions the project.

I agree that talent is not enough, you also need to master the craft. But I do belive in, as WA put it "God given talent". We all have special gifts, very few of us have a gift for screenwriting or storytelling.

I like Opti's NBA analogy. While anyone can shoot hoops in their own yard, or are good enough to join some sort of intramural league. Very few are talented enough to make it as professionals in the NBA.

Hollywood is the NBA. And most with dreams of playing, will have to settle for sitting in the stands and watching the action instead.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I like Opti's NBA analogy. While anyone can shoot hoops in their own yard, or are good enough to join some sort of intramural league. Very few are talented enough to make it as professionals in the NBA.

Hollywood is the NBA. And most with dreams of playing, will have to settle for sitting in the stands and watching the action instead.

Click to expand...

True Hollywood may not deliberately make grade B movies for profit any more, but as I understand it they still exist. I'm told there are indie filmmakers out there who deliberately aim for low budget films designed to make a profit on a modest success. There is even, I am told, a "direct to video store" trade that are not meant to be Hollywood blockbusters -- They are merely meant for an evening's enjoyment.

I can't help but think that a lot of these people are happy with their work and proud of what they do in the world.

I can't help but think that those who you see as "having to settle for sitting on the sidelines" are people who, if they had the initiative to get up and apply themselves, could find a place for themselves that suits them perfectly.

I think the cult of "If you ain't the winner you ain't @#%$" attitude in our society is a sickness. People would be better trying to find their true place in the world rather than trying to win a top position that, were they to win it, they might not be happy in.

Of course I have to admit I'm writing this from a fairly safe position. My only commitment to screenwriting at the minute is mastery of the form ... Assuming I am able to master it. If I commit to actually becoming a screenwriter I may not choose to aim for Hollywood, I may choose to go off Hollywood. I can even perceive of myself being happy in the direct to video store market.

I can always go back to writing novels which I've had published before and have a reasonable expectation of having published again.

But if I never sell anything again the rest of my life I will still never go hungry, never go without a comfortable place to live, and never be without a big loving family to fight with, and I will always have a lot of fun doing what I do.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

There are plenty of people who know the craft of screenwriting well. They may not be the at creating new material, but if you look at Hollywood movies these days, so many movies are adaptations of tv shows, books, comic books, etc.

A lot of these people were determined people who made family connections, or where born into them.

Even some ugly actors are not talented. Beatrice Author, in all her shows, always plays the same character. The intelligent, modern woman who can't stand nonsense. I've read where the Bea author was a friend of the person who cast her as Maude, and the character was made to fit Bea's actual character.

A lot of times people get roles, particularly consistently because of the the actor looks (either pretty or ugly). A really ugly person might get a lot of villain or monster roles because of the way he or she looks. An ugly looks means they don't have to put much makeup on to make you a monster.

Arnold Scwarchnegger, the terminator, made lots of money because he had the body for roles like Conan the Barbarian, and other hero roles. He did a good job, but a short person, no matter how talented, would not have stood a snow ball's chance in hell.

A person who goes into acting, does some gigs here and there and kind of bums out may still end working in the industry as an agent, a producer, a manager, a studio exec (yes, it's happened), etc.

I basically agree with Writing Again.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

WA:

Even indie producers are looking for good scripts. Although I admit, sometimes they settle for crap. Quality of writing has nothing to do with size of budget or even necessarily box office returns.

Being happy with your work and proud of what you do is important. But just because you are happy and proud, does not mean your work is of a professional calibre. Passion and determination do not equal ability. And your chances of succeeding as a screenwriter if you do not have talent, are virtually non-existnet.

You should always write first and foremost because you love it. And if in the end you are proud of what you have accomplished, then you have succeeded on the most important level.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I might also add that a role or two for an actor, on a long lasting television series is in and of itself, a career! Bea Arthur is known for her roles as Maude and the Golden Girls (which is replayed constantly on Lifetime). She's still more famous than a lot of truly talented actors.

And Simon, I'm still waiting to here from you on those writers who merely adapt existing stories to the silver screen. (Comic books, tv shows, books). How much "talent" is required?

These people can build long lasting careers of doing adaptations, and many have. They know the CRAFT well.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

It might also help, Simon, if you were able to define what talent is.

Anyone can study the craft of screenwriting, and master it. So clearly being a master at the craft, in your book, is not talented.

Is it creativity? But as I've said, creativity is not required. Bewitched, the movie, is coming out next year. How much creativity is required when basically just updating and formating a 60s tv series to the 21st century?

I think you, Simon, really have the need to feel like you're a part of an elite that most people can't achieve. I also think it's your subtle way of insulting everyone else on this forum. After all, if most people can't make it as screenwriters, then that means that most people on this board can't make it as screenwriters. And don't try to hide behind "I'm not judging anyone's capabilities on this board." You already have.

But for now, define "talent" and also address the fact screenwriters are making careers of adapting comic books or whatever to the screen.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

Justino -

Not sure how to define talent, it's a "you know it when you see it" type of thing. But basically it has to do with an innate ability to write, to create, to tell a story. It is something that cannot be taught, if it could, all novelists would write like Hemingway or Steven King.

Whether creating an original work, or adapting a work - there is still a fundemental talent involved.

No mastering the craft is not enough. Mastering the scales is not enough to make one Pavorotti, mastering a curve ball is not enough to make someone Nolan Ryan, mastering a golf swing is not enough to make someone Tiger Woods. They were all born with rare gifts, and they took the time to master the craft to fully realize those gifts. But they were born with an innate ability.

I do not feel like I am as you put it "part of an elite". I've never claimed to have talent at all. And I have never judged anyone's abilities on this board - all I've done is applied statistics to come to a general conclusion. For all I know this board could be some sort of anomoly and every single solitary person on it could be blessed with a gift.

The bottom line is - whether you like it or not - or whether it's fair or not - far more people have a dream to succeed than an ability to do so. This applies to any art, craft or intellectual endeavor.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

If you have to define "talent" to be able to know what it is, then you don't have it.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I'm such a dolt I don't even know what "inseperation" is. Nor does my dictionary. Obviously, I'm not one of the chosen talents. I do, however, manage to make my living writing. And fortunately it's what I love to do. Go figure.

Cleo

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

bla bla bla, one miss spelling... i am on a 36 hour study binge for this film theory class, I dont really care that much about spelling on a message board post.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

"The bottom line is - whether you like it or not - or whether it's fair or not - far more people have a dream to succeed than an ability to do so"

Exactly. It is not a fair world. And as you said, talent is innate but must be developed to fully realize its potential. I dont see how or why some are arguing this.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

Opty, neither you nor Simon seem to be able to say what talent is.

Is talent, as you two define it, just a figure of your imagination?


"1 a : any of several ancient units of weight b : a unit of value equal to the value of a talent of gold or silver
2 archaic : a characteristic feature, aptitude, or disposition of a person or animal
3 : the natural endowments of a person
4 a : a special often creative or artistic aptitude b : general intelligence or mental power : ABILITY
5 : a person of talent or a group of persons of talent in a field or activity"

Simon seems to define talent as creative aptitude. But he still doesn't address how many screenwriters make millions off just adapting the works of previous writers to the film. No special creative talent is needed to format an X-Men, Elektraa, or Fantastic Four story to the screen. No special talent is necessary to format a book to the screen. Only knowledge of the craft. Simon refuses to address this because he knows he is WRONG.

A well connected person with knowledge of the craft and good business sense may very well have a good career as a screenwriter. While a "talented" and artistic genius may never get anywhere.

I also note that Simon refuses to get into the fact that a lot of stars had industry parents. Kate Hudson's mother is Goldie Hawn. Tom Cruise's mother is a casting director. Look at the Wayans family. if you've got parents who can get you into the best acting (or screenwriting programs), you are SET.

Hudson and Cruise were also helped by their good looks.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

Justino - Do you understand at all how a screen play is created? Turning a book into a screen play DOES require talent. Why are you resisting and questioning 'talent' so much? It is not possible to define that magical force inside that allows this creative expression to occur. If you could clearly define it, you could easily immate it. It cant not be expressed with language.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I do agree that not all great writers are successful, but that has already been discussed. I also agree that if a not so good writer has connections they may become successful. There are always exceptions to the rule. But for us 'normal' people, not born into the industry, you GENERALLY need good luck, good talent and good business skills. You can also have all of them and still not make it.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

Justino -

Obviously - my definition of talent would be
4 a : a special often creative or artistic aptitude b : general intelligence or mental power : ABILITY

The key word there is SPECIAL as in:

Surpassing what is common or usual; exceptional.

As for adaptations - have you ever done one? They do in fact require a talent to find a way to make it work as a film. And adaptations often require original scenes, original dialgoue, etc. Knowing what to leave out and leave in (because in most cases with adaptations the source material is too lengthy and/or detailed to include it in a film). Believe it or not, Justino adaptation is not just transcribing and reformatting so prose is now description and dialogue.

A well-connected screenwriter - will get read, if there idea is good they might get sold - but connections alone, will not make someone a successful screenwriter. And since the vast majority of aspiring writers do not have the connections you mention, it really is a moot point for most.

I acknowledged that actors can rely on charisma and looks and sometimes succeed without talent. Although career longevity usually requires some acting ability. Writers do not have that luxury. Looking like Tom Cruise is not going to help you sell your script.

Nepotism can help get you started, but it will not guarantee a career. Kate Hudson may have got her first rolls because she's Goldie Hawn's daughter - but her performance in Almost Famous is what put her on the map.

Obviously you do not believe in the concept of talent and therefore I assume you believe that anyone has the ability to excel at the maximum possible level of anything as long as they study and/or practice enough.

Each and everytime you see Shaq or A-Rod sitting next to a third-stringer who practices just as hard and wants to be stars just as much, you are proven wrong.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

You mean a "figment," Justino.

Re: You got it, or you dont got it - Vision, inseperation an

I do agree with Stephe King when he said most people are bad writers... they've got no talent and they'll never become good, no matter how much they study and learn and practice. Then a very good number of people are competent writers. Then a smaller number of people are good writers. Then only a handful of people are geniuses like Shakespeare or Dickens.

You cannot teach a bad writer to become a competent or good writer.

You cannot make a good writer to become a genius. Geniuses are born.

But you can make a competent writer to become a good writer. That is with lots of studying, hardwork, and practice.