Commentary about Agents and Publishers' Stances on PA

ByGrace · Nov 3, 2006

I am all for exposing Publish America. I do wonder though if we have hurt writers' chances of future publication now that we learn that many agents might reject a writer based on the mere fact they may have once published with this company. I think it is grossly unfair and prejudice. Why shouldn't a rejection be based on the quality of the writing, not because of a mistake an author made? So many of us signed with PA in the early days when there was no information out there about them.

Also we are told to not mention our PA books. I don't, for the simple reason I don't want my chances ruined. It's sad to me that I cannot mention three novels that I have completed, three that received excellent reviews from legit reviewers.

Okay granted a PA book is not a publishing credit, but shouldn't agents lighten up just a little? After all if you see that an author has written several novels, received good reviews from people other than authors, that they learned about promotion, and have grown, shouldn't that count for something?

I want to encourage all writers on AW to be authors' advocates. Let's not do anything to ruin their future chances of publication. Let's expose PA, but let's encourage publishers and agents to give those writers who have not thrown in the towel the same chances that other writers receive.

Some of these writers are exceptional. Just last night one of them sent me an excerpt from his book that he regrets he gave to PA. He is writing a sequel. Honestly I was blown away by his writing. It was strong, vivid, and his characters real. His novel was nominated for the 2003 Michael Shaara Award for Civil War Fiction. That should count for something!
He is a regular contributor to a Civil War quarterly e-magazine called Bivouac Banner.

Agents, here is a sample of this fine author's writing who's book is held hostage by Publish America. He should be grabbed up.
http://www.bivouacbooks.com/bbv5i3s9.htm

Yes, expose PA but focus on the company, and do not put red letters, the letters PA, on these authors. Base your decision on their work, not on who published their first book.

James D. Macdonald · Nov 3, 2006

Agents would know about PA if AW never existed.

In the final analysis, all that matters to the agent are the words on the piece of paper in front of him that day.

Mystic · Nov 5, 2006

Bygrace wrote:

"So many of us signed with PA in the early days when there was no information out there about them."

Yes, that is true.

Many were/are good authors. It is hard for them to pursue a writing career after they were so badly fooled. It is my magazine writing credits that assure me that I really am a writer. I must remember I was just fooled by a scam artist. Being poor at business does not mean I am a poor writer.

I can't imagine how difficult this must be for an inexperienced newbie who is filled first with hope, then with self-doubt. He/she may have not writing credit on which to draw strength.

spike · Nov 6, 2006

ByGrace said:
I am all for exposing Publish America. I do wonder though if we have hurt writers' chances of future publication now that we learn that many agents might reject a writer based on the mere fact they may have once published with this company. I think it is grossly unfair and prejudice. Why shouldn't a rejection be based on the quality of the writing, not because of a mistake an author made? So many of us signed with PA in the early days when there was no information out there about them.

There is a strong prejudice against authors who don't understand the publishing business. I don't understand this, but it definitely exists. I attended a writer's con and at the agent panel it was evident. I think that PA authors are a subset of that group.

ByGrace said:
Also we are told to not mention our PA books. I don't, for the simple reason I don't want my chances ruined. It's sad to me that I cannot mention three novels that I have completed, three that received excellent reviews from legit reviewers.

Judging by the writing quality of your posts, I believe your books are well written.

However, agents want good books that sell. One of the agents on the panel I mentioned above said he loves poetry, but that doesn't pay the bills. I've heard the number 5,000 thrown about as the minimum sales of a POD book to be considered marketable. (I'm sure someone will correct me if that is wrong.) Unless you have those kinds of numbers, your book will be considered a failure, despite the reviews it got.

ByGrace said:
Okay granted a PA book is not a publishing credit, but shouldn't agents lighten up just a little? After all if you see that an author has written several novels, received good reviews from people other than authors, that they learned about promotion, and have grown, shouldn't that count for something?

Unfortunately, it's all about the money.

Christine N. · Nov 6, 2006

Ah, but who were those reviews by? "Other people" isn't always a qualifier, and unfortunately PA books are not eligible for review by most of the trade mags, for the simple fact that PA does not send out advanced reader copies the requisite 3-4 months ahead of the street date.

You can get a review on Kirkus, by their "Kirkus Discoveries" subsidiary, but it will cost you BIG.

Reviews by all the little internet sites don't hold much water with the industry at large.

ByGrace · Nov 6, 2006

Christine N. said:
Ah, but who were those reviews by? "Other people" isn't always a qualifier, and unfortunately PA books are not eligible for review by most of the trade mags, for the simple fact that PA does not send out advanced reader copies the requisite 3-4 months ahead of the street date.

You can get a review on Kirkus, by their "Kirkus Discoveries" subsidiary, but it will cost you BIG.

Reviews by all the little internet sites don't hold much water with the industry at large.

I do agree with most of what you've posted, but I don't agree with your comment about online review sites. This link has a list of online review sites, and I can't believe all these sites are worthless.
http://www.complete-review.com/links/links.html

My books were reviewed by the Historical Fiction Review and the Copperfield Review, as well as Reviewers International. Since major newspapers will not review pod books, at least I pursued these and not reviews from fellow authors.

Christine N. · Nov 6, 2006

Not worthless as far as READERS go, no, as long as the site has traffic. We're talking about what carries weight with an agent. I'd say that a review site that is specialized that has reviewed a niche book is probably worth more, which is what you seem to be referencing.

What I'm saying is that for most FICTION, which is what we're talking about, mainstream fiction (including genre), the trades are the place to be

Dee gave me permission to paste this here.

The Brass Ring – Or the Bottom Rung?
By Dee Power, copyright November 2006

24 million adults in the United States consider themselves creative writers but less than 5% have ever been published anywhere. 172,000 titles were released in 2005. It has been estimated that at any one time there are between 5 to 6 million manuscripts looking for a publishing home. Many writers are turning toward publish-on-demand (POD) houses like iUniverse, AuthorHouse and Publish America to get their books into readers’ hands. About 25,000 titles will be released by POD houses in 2006. Does a publish-on-demand, sometimes called vanity or subsidy publishers’ book help a previously unpublished writer get closer to the brass ring of a commercial publishing contract? Or does it bump them down a rung on their climb up the publishing ladder?

Writers often comment that a publish-on-demand book will at least “get their name out there” or that a POD book will show that they are capable of writing a 50,000 to 100,000 word manuscript. But does a POD book really help get a writer commercially published? That question was asked of nearly 60 successful literary agents in the Hill and Power 2006 Survey of Literary Agents.

These agents’ collective opinion is that a publish-on-demand book seriously hurt an author’s chance at being commercially published. Agents were asked to rate their response from 1 - significantly hurt, to 5 - significantly helped. The average rating was 2. 28% declared a POD title to be neutral (a rating of 3) but half of those specified that a POD title would only help if the sales reached a significant level, from 5,000 to 10,000 copies. Just a handful of publish-on-demand titles have reached that level of sales. The average number of copies sold for a POD title is around 100.

The book publishing industry has never been easy to break into and these same literary agents see the environment getting a bit more challenging in the next year or so for unpublished writers. Combine that with the significantly increased number of unsolicited submissions agents say they’re receiving and writers need every boost they can get toward agency representation and the ultimate goal of commercial publication.

Unfortunately, contrary to what quite a few writers think, that boost isn’t going to come from a publish-on-demand book.

James D. Macdonald · Nov 6, 2006

When your self-published book has between about 5,000 and 7,500 sales, you're in a difficult position. Publishers may figure that you've already sold all the copies you're going to. It's above the 7,500 level (some say 10,000) that your book is a proven seller, worthy of distribution and promotion.

ByGrace · Nov 6, 2006

Shouldn't agents and publishers know that for an author to sell, say, a PA book at 5000 copies is impossible? Then why do they expect it?

I have another question when it comes to all of this and how we shouldn't mention a pod book. Should all the authors of pod books take their websites down? Should we now do nothing to promote our names and our writing because we are not recognized as legitamately published? Should only those authors who are published with commerical publishers and have sold over 7,500 copies have websites, promote themselves?

I am not arguing the fact that going with PA is a bad deal. It is! I just refuse to allow the mistake I made ruin my life. I won't promote PA, but I should promote myself. On my website I don't even mention PA.

Isn't there a balance to all of this, or are x-PA authors just doomed?

Christine N. · Nov 6, 2006

They don't expect it. They don't expect you to mention it either.

No, see, again, you're confusing promoting to readers vs. to industry people. If you're trying to get a book repped by an agent, or a legit publisher, you need to approach them as any other un-published writer; because PA/POD books don't count as a writing credit, for the very simple reason that they were not vetted; NOT selected based on the merit of the writing.

The book you're submitting to them should stand on its own, just as an other new writer's would.

As far as your other books, you sure as heck can promote them; you're trying to gain readers.

Miss Snark says that if you mention any other books in your query, she's gonna Google your name. If she sees it's a vanity or PA book or the like, she's writing off that as a credit, and probably has a new view of you as a clueless newbie who doesn't recognize a 'real' credit.

It's a balancing act.

LloydBrown · Nov 6, 2006

ByGrace said:
I have another question when it comes to all of this and how we shouldn't mention a pod book. Should all the authors of pod books take their websites down? Should we now do nothing to promote our names and our writing because we are not recognized as legitamately published?

If you want a website, go ahead.

It won't help you get published. It won't do much to encourage sales of a fiction book you have in print. Even Stephen King's website has less traffic than most folders here on AW. Most writers earning a decent wage and cranking out books you know can barely even maintain a message board.

Concentrate on the manuscript. Everything else is distraction.

ByGrace · Nov 6, 2006

Christine N. said:
Miss Snark says that if you mention any other books in your query, she's gonna Google your name. If she sees it's a vanity or PA book or the like, she's writing off that as a credit, and probably has a new view of you as a clueless newbie who doesn't recognize a 'real' credit.

It's a balancing act.

I completely understand the difference between promoting to readers and industry professionals.

I think judgment on an author as you sited Miss Snark's prejudice is grossly unfair. I am affronted that anyone would determine I am a 'clueless newbie' because I made a mistake with a pod publisher. Okay, I won't mention my PA books, but they are bound to find out sooner or later, and if we are all going to be labeled 'clueless' what hope have we? All I was saying before is we have to be authors' advocates and help change the opinion of industry professionals regarding authors who once had a book pod printed. We should be given an equal chance and not automatically be labeled as clueless newbies. Some of us signed contracts with PA before there was information on the internet about them. Give us a break is all I'm saying.

Christine N. · Nov 6, 2006

I don't think they'd think you are a clueless writer, just not well informed about the industry, which is much different. If you don't mention it, and they find out, well, then I think they'd give you credit for recognizing it as a mistake.

James D. Macdonald · Nov 6, 2006

Shouldn't agents and publishers know that for an author to sell, say, a PA book at 5000 copies is impossible? Then why do they expect it?

You'd better hope that they know that it's a PA book and what that means -- otherwise your book will look like a proven failure.

Listen: what it all boils down to is that publishing with PA isn't a publishing credit, and reselling a PA book is far more difficult than it would be to sell the same manuscript if it had never gone through the townhouse in Frederick.

Not fair, I know.

(And selling a manuscript by saying "I know how to do promotion!" won't get you very far -- it's only in the fantasies of the bottom tier that "publishers don't promote their books" true.)

allenparker · Nov 6, 2006

My plan...

James D. Macdonald said:
You'd better hope that they know that it's a PA book and what that means -- otherwise your book will look like a proven failure.

I am not the expert here, but I simply mentioned the books under my biography. I made a special effort to make sure that I put in a "credits" section and listed those items that were writing credits, magazine articles with national coverage and such. I received one question about why I did what I did. I did not get a contract from the person, but I did get a phone call and a nice rejection. (btw, it's still a no.)

Being honest with people goes a long way.

James D. Macdonald said:
Listen: what it all boils down to is that publishing with PA isn't a publishing credit, and reselling a PA book is far more difficult than it would be to sell the same manuscript if it had never gone through the townhouse in Frederick.

Not fair, I know.

(And selling a manuscript by saying "I know how to do promotion!" won't get you very far -- it's only in the fantasies of the bottom tier that "publishers don't promote their books" true.)

What I want to do is write a book that makes an editor say, "PA be damned, I gotta have that book." Fair or not, I want to write a book that makes the publisher want to stop the rest of the books and move mine to the front.

If I can do that, no one will care what happened in the past.

The trick, of course, is in writing a book to meet those standards.

kjh7073 · Nov 6, 2006

James D. Macdonald said:
You'd better hope that they know that it's a PA book and what that means -- otherwise your book will look like a proven failure.

Listen: what it all boils down to is that publishing with PA isn't a publishing credit, and reselling a PA book is far more difficult than it would be to sell the same manuscript if it had never gone through the townhouse in Frederick.

Not fair, I know.

(And selling a manuscript by saying "I know how to do promotion!" won't get you very far -- it's only in the fantasies of the bottom tier that "publishers don't promote their books" true.)

It might be difficult, but I'm still going to try.

JennaGlatzer · Nov 6, 2006

ByGrace said:
many agents might reject a writer based on the mere fact they may have once published with this company.

Where has any agent said this?

I'd have a very hard time believing that any agent would read a great manuscript or query and turn it down because the writer formerly had a book with PA. Allen is dead on when he says this:

"Fair or not, I want to write a book that makes the publisher want to stop the rest of the books and move mine to the front.

"If I can do that, no one will care what happened in the past."

What I DO believe, however, is that mentioning PA in your bio induces much eye-rolling among industry pros. And that's not the fault of people like you who understand better now, but it is the fault of people who continue to insist that PA is a legit credit. I encounter them very, very frequently-- they apply to teach classes through Absolute Write with amazing regularity, for one thing.

Someone will apply to teach a course on, say, writing mysteries, and say that he's a published mystery author with great reviews. It takes me 10 seconds to find out that his only publishing credits are with PublishAmerica and possibly another vanity press, and his reviews are from fellow PA authors and maybe Midwest Book Review.

If someone tries to pass off a PA book as a real credit, I'm automatically distrustful of that person, and/or I believe the person has no idea how the publishing industry works-- which probably means the person is not ready to publish.

Mentioning PA books in a query is a lot like mentioning the manuscripts in your drawers that you've never submitted anywhere... they mean nothing in terms of establishing whether or not you're talented, so why bother mentioning them up front? Later, after you've already dazzled an agent or editor with your wonderful words and they're interested in you, THAT'S the time to mention "Oh and by the way, I made a mistake with an earlier book..."

I wouldn't mention it before then, because you're right that there's a prejudice-- publishers and agents see a PA book in a bio and think bad things. There's a reason for that. Used to be a time when people would pull this nonsense with Xlibris. They'd query me (when I was editing) and write things like, "I'm published with Xlibris, a division of Random House!" Pissed me off that they would try to play me like that. And that's what many people do with their PA books, try to pass them off as real publication credits.

Christine N. · Nov 7, 2006

Nope, I don't think an agent would SAY this, but it may skew their view. But, of course, if the current submission blows their socks off, they WON'T care.

I posted this in the "editor, agents, etc..." thread, but it bears repeating here.

From Rachel Vater's blog today.

If you have published with AuthorHouse, PublishAmerica, iUniverse, or Xlibris previously, please do not list that as a publishing credit. Because you know I’m going to look it up and find out.

She doesn't care that you wrote it, she just doesn't want to know about it. Just as she doesn't care about the three novels in my closet.

allenparker · Nov 7, 2006

Jenna wrote:

" What I DO believe, however, is that mentioning PA in your bio induces much eye-rolling among industry pros."

You are probably right, but the only response I have received about PA so far is:
1. "Don't you have a book with Publish America?" when I didn't mention it.
2. One asked about the book in the bio section not listed in the writing credits section.

The other thing is that if you are selling a reprint right, you had better tell them where it came from. They WILL ask. They will want to know how many sold as well. Very few is a problem. Too many is a problem.

Very few means a small market.

Too many means that there are many books in some state of "not ready" and the market may not be willing to trust the book again. It is a case of just too much unpleasant exposure. (A silly statement coming from a nudist, don't you think?)

Stacia Kane · Nov 7, 2006

Couldn't you just mention the book and say something like, "Unfortunately, I sold this to PA before I knew much about the industry"?

I have a hard time believing an editor or agent will seriously reject you just because three years ago you sold a book to PA. Yes, if you try to present it as a legit credit, they might, but just mentioning that you sold a few books to PA before you knew the truth should tell them you're now aware of the mistake you made--and you're not hiding your past mistakes either.

CaoPaux · Nov 7, 2006

Miss Snark has addressed this on occasion, such as: http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2005/09/desperate-to-dance.html

Sean D. Schaffer · Nov 20, 2006

ByGrace said:
Snipped....

I am not arguing the fact that going with PA is a bad deal. It is! I just refuse to allow the mistake I made ruin my life. I won't promote PA, but I should promote myself. On my website I don't even mention PA.

Isn't there a balance to all of this, or are x-PA authors just doomed?

I've seen a number of ex-PA authors on these very boards and elsewhere, that have gone on to promising literary careers. So I don't think a PA author is doomed just because they went with PA. But mentioning a PA book, OTOH, does not help your situation much if you're submitting to a legitimate company, simply because, if I understand correctly, a PA book does not qualify as a publishing credit.

I personally have decided to start writing under a pseudonym partially because of my previous association with PA. But I did this just so that I could give myself what some might call a 'Clean Slate'. But I don't think that my real name would hurt my chances of being represented by a legitimate agent; what matters here is how professional I am as a submitter and how good my writing is. I think the same is true with any writer, ex-PA or no.

So personally, I don't think that an ex-PA'er is doomed to failure. Even one that was scammed more recently--I've noticed a couple posters having concerns about this being a death sentence to someone's literary career, and that's why I bring this up--than say, you or me (I signed with them three years ago) would not be doomed to failure just because they were scammed. It would depend upon their professionalism and the quality of their writing. I don't think there's much more to the equation than that.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 20, 2006

ByGrace said:
I am all for exposing Publish America. I do wonder though if we have hurt writers' chances of future publication now that we learn that many agents might reject a writer based on the mere fact they may have once published with this company.

I doubt that a legitimate, experienced, agent would reject a writer based on anything other than the quality of the ms. at hand.

Agents, like editors, are primarily interested in a good book that they can sell. They don't care about the ancillary issues, they care about the current ms.

Don't mention that you published another book with PA; it's immaterial.

If your book is good enough, someone will buy it. If it isn't, write a better book.

Commentary about Agents and Publishers' Stances on PA

ByGrace

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

Mystic

spike

Mostly Ignored

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

ByGrace

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

ByGrace

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

LloydBrown

ByGrace

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

allenparker

Naked Futon Guy

kjh7073

I Need a Clever Title :)

JennaGlatzer

wishes you happiness

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

allenparker

Naked Futon Guy

Stacia Kane

Girl Detective

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless

Sean D. Schaffer

Deleted member 42