What does the term ...............

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eldragon

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Indian giver mean?


I said it this morning, when describing how one of my kids gave her Halloween candy to the other last night - because she said she was too fat to eat it ................

and then this morning, she retracted the offer and snatched it back.

I called her an Indian giver, and then realized that I have no idea where that term originated. It's probably referring to something awful, like "jewing someone down,"

Anyone know?
 

mommywriter

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Hi Pam...
I'm no history buff but I believe that it refers to the Americans "giving" the land to the Native Americans and then taking it back.
Whether or not that's the true origin...it is an offensive term.
 

cree

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I'm married to an Injun. Mohawk. :)

The term is derogatory (like Injun). It started because Native Ams had no concept of money when the Europeans arrived. They traded items rather than sold them. If the receiver of an item offered for trade had nothing of equal value to trade, the item was taken back by the owner.
If I put a buffalo skin in your lap for trade consideration, and all you offered back was a sewing needle, I'd take my buffalo skin back.
Europeans misunderstood "gifts" for "trading".
 
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Stew21

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yep, it's derogatory, but I'm glad you asked what it meant instead of just continuing to use the phrase. More people should do that!

:)
 

WriterInChains

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Years ago, a friend of mine explained it a little differently. He said that in many Native American traditions if anyone in the tribe needed something, say an extra blanket, whoever had one would give it to them until it wasn't needed anymore; they'd take it back when the need passed. So, giving something and taking it back at a later time for no visible reason to an outsider, generated the term "Indian Giver." Just a lack of understanding of the culture.

This may not be true of all NA cultures, I learned it while studying my own family history.
 

cree

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Caren- yes, I have heard that too. I'm not sure if that is tribe-specific, or not.
Either way, it is a logical approach to community life.

:)
 

WriterInChains

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cree said:
Caren- yes, I have heard that too. I'm not sure if that is tribe-specific, or not.
Either way, it is a logical approach to community life.

:)
I thought so too, cree. Wouldn't it be nice to live in a community like that? :)




RE: Welching/Welshing on a bet, from the Online Etymology Dictionary (& a few other sources):

welch
1857, racing slang, "to refuse or avoid payment of money laid as a bet," probably a disparaging use of the national name Welsh.

IMO, another expression we can do without in the 21st century.

I don't see how it's anything like the OP's term either.
 

Kate Thornton

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I see how both terms are derogatory - leftovers from another time. "Beyond the pale" is another one we should look up and stop using. I'll bet we can think of more.
 

WriterInChains

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Kate, that's one I hadn't heard before. I wasn't surprised to find this def, though:

(Free Dictionary) if someone's behaviour is beyond the pale, it is not acceptable. "Her recent conduct is beyond the pale."




This subject is one I've thought about quite a bit, since my dad could've been Archie Bunker's understudy. He said all kinds of terrible things as if they were normal, but I didn't realize it until I said "You're such a slave driver" to a black friend -- I wanted to disappear. After that, I thought about all the "cute little sayings" I'd heard as a kid and most of them have disappeared from my vocabulary. Good riddance! :)
 

cree

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I'm not sure how the phrase Beyond the Pale is derogatory? Am I missing something?

A pale is a fence post. So beyond the pale means someone's behavior is not within the "fence" of society. It was used in ancient Ireland to separate races, yes. Is that what you mean?

To me, it just meant you're outside the jurisdiction of normal people :)
 

BottomlessCup

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Kate Thornton said:
I'll bet we can think of more.

to "gyp" someone
Dutch courage
Dutch date
Irish twins (although probably only my grandma still says that)(about my cousins!)
jamoke
to 'Finnish' too quickly in bed
 

BottomlessCup

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cree said:
I'm not sure how the phrase Beyond the Pale is derogatory? Am I missing something?

A pale is a fence post. So beyond the pale means someone's behavior is not within the "fence" of society. It was used in ancient Ireland to separate races, yes. Is that what you mean?

To me, it just meant you're outside the jurisdiction of normal people :)

If by normal people, you mean the people who live in the city.
Not the 'wild ones' out there.
Not the 'natives'.

I would use the term. Who would actually be offended?
 

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BottomlessCup said:
If by normal people, you mean the people who live in the city.
Not the 'wild ones' out there.
Not the 'natives'.

I would use the term. Who would actually be offended?

Oh. See, I live in the country, so the people who live in the city are on the other side of my fence posts.
It works from both sides of the fence :)

If the assumption is that pale meant "pale-faces" as opposed to native americans, I don't know of any usage like that?

I haven't heard the term Irish twins in ages!!! :) LOL. I never thought of it as derogatory, but I guess you could kinda go there....
 
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BottomlessCup said:
I would use the term. Who would actually be offended?

I have friends who are Indian Givers on occasion and until someone comes up with an aceptable term to describe someone who give you something then takes it back other than you are a "person who gives something then takes it back," I will continue to use this term.

Probably not to a Native American though.
 

BottomlessCup

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I was referring to "beyond the pale", billy.

You shouldn't say Indian Giver. Why do you need a term? I have a friend who rarely returns phone calls in a prompt manner, but I don't need some latenly racist term to describe people with that trait.

I just say, "Hey, answer your voice mail, a**hole." As you should say, "Hey, quit taking your gifts back, a**hole," instead of just shouting "Indian Giver!" or whatever you were doing.


Irish Twins is definitely derogatory. The theory is: Irish = Catholic = No birth control = Two babies in one year. It ain't a compliment.
 
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BottomlessCup said:
You shouldn't say Indian Giver.

We shouldn't say a lot of things.

It is the acceptable societal term for someone who gives you something then takes it away.

The Washington Redskins probably shouldn't be the Washington Redskins, but they are.

But, I will not bow to the ridiculous over reaching world of political correctness.

There's a scale of poltical correctness that I don't mind adhering to and then there's off the scale.

Thank you.
 
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BottomlessCup said:
Why do you need a term?

Because I do.

They took black and made it African-American.

If you don't want me to use "Indian Giver," okay...give me another term.

I don't want to say "Hey a**hole, why did you take your gift back?"

I just want to say "Dude, you're a 'snatchbacker.'"

Or something.

I'll wait patiently for a new term.

And maybe no one will take back a gift from me until then.

And all will be well.
:)
 
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BottomlessCup said:
'Snatchbacker' already has a definition.

I knew you would do something with that part of my post.

How's your hot girlfriend by the way?

How'd that all work out?
 

BottomlessCup

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It's going fine.

It was a weird, tense weekend, but that's why I live 1800 miles away from my parents.
 
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BottomlessCup said:
It's going fine.

It was a weird, tense weekend, but that's why I live 1800 miles away from my parents.

1000 miles should be the minimum buffer in many cases.

You're in great shape.
 
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