Villains- how do you come up with them

How does everyone come up with villains?

first pof all, given that you're writing fantasy or SF, do you start with the villains magic/technology/whatever powers and plans, or start with a personality? or do you do both, as when deciding to create an alien and developing it's mental and physical nature simultaneously?

what gives you your inspiration for the Villains motivations and values? on the Novel Writing board, there's a thread about tapping into your own dark side for your villains, but i prefer to model my villains on my best qualities. why? well, a villain based on a simple character flaw like greed or jealousy can become tritre, while i find it very scary when i see positive qualities like honor, determination, intelligence, foresight, and compassion turned against the heroes.

Villains - how do you come up with them

This may sound stupid, but I don't try and invent villains, they just show up in my work. In my WIP, my antagonist is a charming, manipulative sociopath - and he's practically hijacking the story.

Like any character, I think the best villains are multidimensional. No one person is all bad, so a convincing antagonist should be engaging as well. Gollum in LOTR (a deeply flawed character, perhaps not the protagonist?). Iago in Othello. Hannibal Lecter. Can anyone think of other great antagonists in SF/F? Pthom? HConn?

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

Well, there are villians, and there are bad guys. In one fantasy story I did, the bad guy was definitely a villian (villianess?). There's got to be a good dose of pure, unadulterated evil in there for villianry, I suppose, or maybe just that's my connotation for the word.

But really, an antagonist in a story is simply someone who sets up roadblocks (or is a roadblock) to the protagonist. What puts the antagonist on a range from sympathetic pseudo-co-protagonist up to truly-evil-incarnate villian is the extent of the antagonist's malice in that roadblock. The bad guy in my current story isn't malicious so much as just someone who wants his own goals, and is willing to sacrifice more than the hero to achieve those; a villian is someone who wants his own goals, will sacrifice more, and come back to pound the hero a few more times just for the bloomin' helluvit.

So a bad guys says, "I want to win." A villian says, "It's not enough to win; you have to lose, and horribly so."

In a nutshell, that tells me much of what I need to know about the antagonist in a story: the goal, and the extent of his/her willingness to do damage to achieve that goal. If the antagonist is willing to kidnap and blackmail but not murder, that kind of delineation is extremely informative when making sure s/he remains in character - and for determining his/her character, at that.

Everything else is window-dressing, I suppose.

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

I strive to create a reason for the villain to act. Unless there was socialization of some sort beforehand, revenge isn't a good reason in most instances.

Generally, villains are after something and it doesn't have to be world domination. Sometimes, it could occur as a result of another goal gone wrong or distorted by the process of seeking it. In other words, the villain might have wanted a particular woman to want him, but to impress her, he had to acquire wealth. To do that, he had to steal in all likelihood and that might be what puts him in conflict with protagonist.

For instance, consider another case where the villain does something much worse in order to cover up a different crime and thereby escape as occurs in the movie Die Hard. It's really a grand theft plan, but the thieves pretend to be terrorists with demands which are merely meant to prod the authorities into cutting the power to the building. Then they show they're willing to kill their hostages to cover their trail.

So, what I'm saying is come up with a reasonable goal that's just beyond normal means for your villain. If he's a poor man in a land where only nobles have money, you've got a start. Then put him in conflict with another poor man so that the second man can be tempted and has reasons to distrust the establishment, yet still has faith in them or some other valid reason for supporting the system. Or the villain could be a noble who's not in line for the throne, but sees a way to make it become possible.

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

I let them speak to me.

I must admit, however, in all my stories there are no clear villains. There are situations and conflicts and if they make the person opposing the "protagonist" a villian/antagonist, that's cool. But I don't set out to create a "villian." I want my characters to be themselves -- they all have flaws and something that drives them, and they can be at odds with each other. But no one is out to destroy another person or set someone on fire for the heck of it... they all have their reasons, and sometimes the reasons are noble, and sometimes they're selfish or immoral, but as a writer, I don't pass judgment. I try to let them do their own things.

Of course I'm no expert in this. I've only written one mainstream novel. I've written many short stories but only one or two are quasi sci-fi and I've never done a fantasy (although I have a few ideas in my head at this time). So to paraphrase CC: What the heck do I know?

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

no one is out to destroy another person or set someone on fire for the heck of it... they all have their reason

Click to expand...

I think this is the important element. That reason can be almost anything, but it has to be strong enough to cause the villain to act in a manner that impedes the protag.

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

Well, in the case of my most recent project, I let both my protagnonist's and antagonist's birth and childhood define thier present tense behavior. Even if I don't mention much of thier childhoods, it still helped. Let your characters live and die in your head, and more of a geniune personality will show in your writing..... IMO

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

I feel the same as maestrowork, I try to create characters, rather than "villains". It depends partly what sort of scale the story's on. In my current novel, the antagonist has started off very much like the protagonist (they grew up together) but has had much more negative experiences that make her cynical about valuing anything except her own ambitions. In a way, she's a victim of circumstance - but the ambitions were already there in the first place.

I have another "villain" in another novel who's a genuinely nice person, until it conflicts with his ambitions, then he's willing to sacrifice anyone. I originally wrote it with him as a typical tyrant, abusing people who served him. Then I asked myself, why would anyone serve a ***!!//* like that? (given that he starts with nothing). So I made him really thoughtful and nice to everyone, so that they'd want to follow him.

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

My villain became a villain because of a book. Not that he wasn't a villain before, but he wasn't as villainy (is that a word). He was maybe overly ambitious, tended to step on a few toes... but this certain book indicated that he would be killed by a member of this alien species (which feature prominently in a number of stories and novels (mostly unfinished) that I've written. In order to change his destiny he will try to destroy an entire species.

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

A lot of good comments.

I agree that motive defines any character - and opposed motives is what creates the protagonist/antagonist conflict. The antagonist, by definition, is someone who either wants the same thing as the protagonist, or wants to prevent the protagonist from getting what they want.

Remember, though, that real people often have conflicting passions, multiple goals and ulterior motives. A good antagonist, I think, is someone that the reader might root for one moment, and then boo the next.

What I mean is that there are times when the antagonist might display admirable qualities, and/or be fighting against someone truly despicable. At these moments, the reader might side with the antagonist. Of course, once the antagonist's path crosses that of the protagonist, the reader would (should) side with the hero. Farscape did a pretty good job of this, I think. George RR Martin's "Ice and Fire" series is another good example.

Truly evil, wretched antagonists are one-sided and lifeless. Sure, with this sort of "villain," it's easy for the reader to decide who is good and who is bad. But an antagonist that elicits the reader's sympathy (if even occasionally) is far more complex and interesting.

So, having said all that - my answer to the question "How do you come up with villains":
First I define the hero, and then I envision someone whose desires conflict with the hero's.

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

Villainy is a word, but it's the abstract noun - the state of being villainous. I think the word you were looking for was villainous.

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

well, i agree that villains are characters too, and real people.

nevertheless, i think htere is space between whooly evil and sympathetic. in some stories, you want the readers firmly on the side of the protagonist; you don't want them to sympathize with the antagonist. this doesn't mean that they are pure evil, or that they are unrealistic, they are just wholly unlikeable.


in my major WIP, i have no "true" villains, but several characters towhich a discussion of villains applies.

there are two characters which were conceived as villains. unfortunately, the more i wrote them the more i grew to understand and like them until they ceased to be villains, and both undergo a redemption during the book. another character is a hero who falls from grace during the story. (or does he? that is actualy the fundamental question of the plot). in developing his dark side, i decided that, rather than the conventional approach of having his weaknesses and vices consume him, i would have him destoryed and turned ot evil by his virtues: courage, a sense of justice, honesty, honor, knowledge, and charisma.

in otherwords, his worst and best features were one side of the same coin.

Re: Villains - how do you come up with them

My villains tend to emerge after I have a story. I come up with the problem that exists, then I come up with someone to represent it.

I also always make sure that my villains have a goal of their own, so that to them their actions seem justifiable.

Evil Overlords

well, i genereally make very sparing use of villains anyway, but i have a story i've been plotting out that has a serious problem, villain-wise.

it's a book about the fantasy cliche, the prophecied hero who will arise to defeat the evil overlord. anyway.

i spent all my time thinking about the prophecy and the hero, and how i would make them new and interesting. unfortunately, i focused entirely on the heroes and thier quest to find a book they're looking for. now, i'm trying to develop the enemy they must defeat, and i can't picture him. actually, i'm beginning to think that he's less important than he appears. he would likely has gone undefeated at the end of the book anyway, since the real climax of the story is the culmination of their quest for the magic book and realization that the prophecy is a lie.

he wouldn't be killed, therefore, until a sequel. obviously this character doesn't make sense.

so now i either need to make my villain more important to the plot and bring about his downfall at the same time as the current plkot is resolved, or find a way to do it without him. which means i need some other reason to send a "chosen one" on a quest for a magic book.

any sugestions?

Re: Evil Overlords

If the prophecy is a lie, couldn't the evil overlord be a lie too? Either in that he doesn't exist, or that he isn't really an evil overlord. Just a thought.

Re: Evil Overlords

hmm.... an interesting thought. i don't think it would work, because that changes the nature of the lie. the idea is that the prophecy is untrue, but needed to be in order for things to come out right in the end- if it told the truth, they would have given up. it's much the the oracle's prophecy from the Matrix.

however, maybe there doesn't need to be an evil overlord. they could be trying to save the world from a natural distaster, or a failing of magic or something.

Re: Evil Overlords

It depends upon the story. Humans are humans. Generally, as far as humans, you just tap into human nature.

Often you'll have mixed qualities (Gollum) not completely evil, but perhaps having an evil bent. In some cases, they are sold out to evil, and are at the point where they act like the devil, without any redeaming qualities.

Yet, if they are like that, I like to expose the flaw in them that caused them to harden themselves.

In terms of non-humans, evil spirits...etc, I take every redeaming human character and remove it. They are purely evil, and have no good. However, they often have a pretense of goodness, being highly intelligent and highly manipulative, enough so to become what others want, but only to exploit them.

I never have used "non-intelligent" creatures, or "Pit-bull" creatures, where they are compelled by something within them, like a Shark, whose simply going about his business.

I like a deliberate being, who has an agenda. (Sauron-like)

Re: Evil Overlords

One thing I hate is when you have a classic Good/Evil conflict and the people from the Evil side actually refer to themselves as Evil. Who actually does that? It's much more interesting if the evil characters (whether human or supernatural) consider themselves the heroes.

Villains

hello,

My main villain is someone who betrayed the main character: A Judas type.

The other villain is a man who used to be Mordred, the son of Arthur and his half-sister. I have him rescued by the source of Evil in my world.



David

Re: Villains

I know this villain question all too well, as my current WIP has had all sorts of experiments done with it to find the villain. The technique I finally settled upon was to design the villain, from the ground up, to be precisely what the story required him to be. I decided what I wanted him to do, and how I wanted him to go about his business, and set about creating a character, from birth, who would eventually wind up like what I wanted. It took several tries, and I had to scrap it a few times and start over, but I learned something new about him each time, and in the end wound up with a ruthelessly-evil-mad-cackling sort of villain, however, he does have a very complex storyline, and everything taken from his point of view, makes sense.


What I like to do mostly with my villains, is to redefine morality, and make them very moral people, but by their own standards. Some very good inspirations for this can be found in older definitions of morality, from ancient times. A good splash of social values from various points in history can be a good seasoning. A villain who believes totally in utalitarianism with a splash of family honor makes for a very complex villain. So does a dedicated follower of Rosecrucianism who has a problem tolerating those of other nations. The combinations can go on and on, ever wonder what an eqyptian pharoah that was moral and immoral? Learn about it, and then apply that attitude to a commoner and see where it gets you.

Re: Villains

I gave my villain and my protag a history: Villain sent Hero on a quest for a magical item. Hero found it and was about to deliver it when he overheard Villain's plans to use it against a kindly lord. Hero instead threw the item into the sea and, being an arrogant young man, he told Villain what he had done. Villain visits Hero at home, renders him "inert" with magic, and murders Hero's wife and child while Hero watches. Hero believes Villain to be too powerful for a single man to defeat, and thus does not seek vengeance.

That was five years prior to the story I'm writing. Now, Villain wants what Hero has. Although Hero doesn't want it, he has to keep Villain from getting it. Both Hero and Villain feel betrayed by the other.

Re: Villains

I have no trouble motivating my villains. One grew up in a harem where poison was a commonly use tool. She is so angry at having been used all her life that she scruples at literally nothing. Now she has risen to autocratic power and enjoys inflicting pain for its own sake. But what I have trouble with is what does she actually do?

One thing she does is train young slaves as gladiators and then she pits them against each other. But what other kinds of things might she do? I am not too in touch with evil or sadism, so I am floundering a bit for ideas.

Any suggestions?

Re: Villains

In my current story, I decided what my villain wants more than anything, and then found the quickest path to that goal. If that means hurting others, then oh well. Then I took it to the extreme by putting someone in his way. That gets him really ticked off because it's usually someone who has betrayed him in the past.

Re: Villains

As someone else said before me, I don't create my villians. They tend to just create themselves. I suppose there is a part of me that is bad? Maybe that's why villians come so easily to me. I suppose it's notable that my favorite characters in a story/movie are always the bad guys.

I'm the weirdo in the back of the theatre with a ; Go Vadar! sign.

:rollin

You need strong characters facing off with your protagonist. If he spends the whole novel arguing about a parking ticket or a bill for sword sharpening the stakes aren't all that high.

However, they don't have to be evil. They just have to believe in what they're doing, and then work to achieve it. Whatever 'it' is, it should be the opposite of what your protagonist wants.

My protagonist is a self-employed freighter pilot, and in the first two novels his enemies are big business folk trying to grind him down or take advantage of him. They're not evil, they're just determined to get their way. And if that means crushing the protagonist, so be it.

I did branch out in the third book though: my protagonist runs up against a dodgy politician who's trying to grind him down AND take advantage of him.