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aruna
10-19-2006, 11:04 AM
My MC is in a situation where she has to kill a man with bare hands. I remembered my son telling me that his Kung Fu master in Thailand is able to do that, so I foreshadowed a bit and had her learning Kung Fu.
Now my son tells me that to get to that stage you need 30 yers training.
I'm not able to give this to my MC.
Can anyone think of away of doing it? This is for arevision needed ASAP, I had to change one scene so time is of the essence!

The scenario: the man is trying to get her to sleep with him. He's not going to rape her; he wants her to do it willingly so she is feigning interest. OUtside the door, there's an armed guard. She and this man are in a simple bedroom, there;s really nothing she could use as a weapon but somehow she has to figure out a way to kill him - or at least disable him so that she can escape through the window. (Yes, disabling is fine as long as it is plausible.)

Also, it never actually comes to that. Before she can get down to killing/disabling him, something happens to make it unnecessary., But she has to think out this plan in her head, and it has to be plausible.

Martial arts is a good option, but anything else you can think of?

alleycat
10-19-2006, 01:52 PM
I'm guessing you have a reason why she doesn't just scream for the armed guard?

I would go for his eyes in some way; or his throat (I don't mean choking, I mean punching him right in the Adam's apples). And I would probably NOT use the old hackneyed idea of kicking him in the you-know-where. These would be used just to disable the man temporarily.

aruna
10-19-2006, 02:07 PM
I'm guessing you have a reason why she doesn't just scream for the armed guard?

I would go for his eyes in some way; or his throat (I don't mean choking, I mean punching him right in the Adam's apples). And I would probably NOT use the old hackneyed idea of kicking him in the you-know-where. These would be used just to disable the man temporarily.

The armed guard is a baddie! He's on the side of the would-be rapist!
I just remembered: in the room there's a meal laid out. Knives and forks, wine glasses. What if she grabs the knife or fork, jabs him in the throat or eyes? She has to disarm hin long enough to escape through the window.

Bravo
10-19-2006, 02:13 PM
would the killing be accidental or intentional?

smash his head with a lamp and strangle him with an electrical wire from a lamp.

or smash his head with a wine bottle, and then slice the sharp glass into his neck (to kill), chest to disable.

or hand to hand:

an upper palm strike to a guy's nose will essentially render him blind for a long moment where she could then kick him in the balls or something to run away.

or hitting him in the throat and then kicking him in the balls.


just some ideas im throwing out. but like alley said, a kick to the balls wont knock the guy out.

one thing a person learns in any real world situation is that things get messy and you have to improvise. so just do some sort of realistic combination of things and that should work.

good luck

Nicholas S.H.J.M Woodhouse
10-19-2006, 02:14 PM
does she have a purse with her? or maybe a shoe she could beat him with, stab a heel in his hand?

alleycat
10-19-2006, 02:15 PM
Here's one little scenario . . . she asks the guy to be sure the door is locked before they "get it on". While he's doing that, she takes a fork (I assume the knife is actually a butter knifes) and hides it. Then when she gets a good chance, she jabs the fork right in his throat. That would insure that the guard would have to knock down the door before he could get in, and the guy in the room is going to be concerned with himself for a while. She might also do something to be sure the window is opened or unlocked before all of this.

Just an idea.

aruna
10-19-2006, 02:24 PM
does she have a purse with her? or maybe a shoe she could beat him with, stab a heel in his hand?

Nope, no purse or anything at all. It;s a very simple environment, tropical, so the window is already open. Thanks to everyone, that-s already a lot of ideas I can work with. But keep them coming!

rtilryarms
10-19-2006, 02:27 PM
Aruna,

Be careful with claims of kill shots using bare hands. It's mostly hype and myth.
Even the (especially the) Masters of the Arts admit that the "kill shots" do not really work. The most common blow is the "drive the bridge of his nose into his brain." Although this is the one I read about the most, it is the most unlikely of the scenarios as the nose is soft cartilage and just collapses. You can kill someone breaking the nose but it's from bleeding to death. While he bleeds out, he is not disabled and can render much harm before going into shock.
The other blows you will read about, simply do not work except under the most controlled of circumstances.

If your MC has no Martial Arts training then it is even more unlikely.

Many successful books, however, describe kill shots so if you did write about one, you wouldn't discredit yourself too much except from advanced practitioners and they are just used to it.

If disabling is fine, I would suggest you go with that for plausibility.
Since I grew up small, I trained small. The best blow I was taught was to break the collarbone, which collapses with a relatively easy strike -- about 15 pounds per square inch – and renders the opponent helpless. They just fall to the ground. If your MC is “going along” with the man, a close-up romantic situation can be written where the opponent is caught in a moment of vulnerability. A hard elbow, downward strike, will disable the largest of men.

Once he is writhing on the ground, (and cussing and screaming), MC can escape or do other harm.

I use this in most of my fight scenes where the MC is of smaller stature than the antag.

Security guard needs to be "in on it", knocked out, gone on break or on rounds.

Mike

aruna
10-19-2006, 07:13 PM
Ok, I came to a decision... no decision! While she is being "manhandled" she is thinking what to do. Her thougts are galloping through the options, the very stuff you've provided above. First get the guard out, then use her wits. Kung Fu, kick his balls, use the fork or knife, dig in his eyeballs? Her eye on the open window. She can't make up her mind; she'll have to play it by ear. Pretend to like the manhandling. Pretend to respond. Get the guard with the gun out. Mind racing, heart pounding. And then something happens to switch everything around...

Thanks to everyone who responded, rps for all, and I am still accepting suggestions! The more the better....

Elektra
10-19-2006, 07:31 PM
Not sure if this is anticlimatic, but could she always carry pepper spray on her? That'll incapacitate him for a very long time.

Histry Nerd
10-19-2006, 08:00 PM
The problem with using pepper spray indoors is she may incapacitate herself as well.

Others have already mentioned a few methods. She can learn a few very nasty moves with only a day's worth of training or so, mainly where to hit or kick him to incapacitate quickly. There are martial arts techniques for killing with a single blow, but generally only the masters will be able to execute them, so that's probably not an option. And as rtilryarms mentioned, most are myth anyway.

Best bets, from the training I've had (in no particular order):
1) Something in the eye (a key or fork works well, but a thumb or finger would be good especially if she has longer fingernails)
2) Groin (a hard enough kick can actually tear the cartilage that holds the pelvis together in front, crippling him)
3) Solar plexus, the spot where the ribs come together (if she hits him in the right spot, he will go down no matter how big he is--there are no abdominal muscles to protect the diaphragm at that point)
4) Throat (the Adam's apple is harder to crush than the movies show, but a good shot will distract him for a while)
5) Knee (hard to break, but not hard to cause a lot of pain and make walking difficult)

There is a three-shot combination that will probably put him down: knee to the groin, then to the face as he doubles over, followed by an elbow strike to the back of the neck. She could learn that one in a few hours.

Of course, if he's under the influence of something, none of these may affect him.

Hope these are useful to you.
HN

aruna
10-19-2006, 08:07 PM
Thanks, Elektra and History Nerd. Pepper won't work, as she's by necessity empty-handed.
HN, that thing with the three-shot combination works perfectly. In fact, I can foreshadow her training for this as I have someone who would be able to train her earlier in the book. Thanks!

Elektra
10-19-2006, 08:13 PM
Wasn't that what Sandra Bullock did for her talent in Miss Congeniality?

Scarlett_156
10-19-2006, 08:20 PM
A person who is completely untrained in martial arts and who has never engaged in combat before (you didn't mention these as factors for your main character) is more than likely NOT going to be able to kill or disable another person quickly or easily with her bare hands.

And keep in mind-- try to put yourself in the character's position: Could YOU stab someone in the eye with a fork, even if you knew they might kill you? Or dig your fingers into someone's eyes? I mean-- ewwww! It takes steely determination to do something like that.

People I know who have suffered BAD attacks in which they were frightened out of their wits will admit that there may have been opportunities to damage their attacker-- but the idea that any injury you give your attacker may NOT keep him from hurting you more, and may in fact make him hurt you WORSE is a powerful inhibitor. (Thus the syndrome of guilt that many rape vicitims experience, i.e., "I could have gotten out of it, but I didn't.")

Kicking someone in the nards may disable him for a couple of minutes, but when those couple of minutes are over, you'd better hope you are out of there and running for your life.

Punching someone in the adam's apple IS a good way to incapacitate that person for more than a couple of minutes, and there's an added benefit that in those couple of minutes he won't be able to call for help. In those couple of minutes, if escape is not easily possible, your protagonist-- only if she is a total badass-- COULD possibly take things a bit further and try to garotte him with something, or (last resort) stab him to death. Garotte might be easier, if there is something close to hand to use. A smaller person can strangle a larger person if the larger person is lying on his/her stomach and the smaller person is kneeling on his back, applying the garotte with some determination. Naturally no one is going to just lie there and let himself be killed, keep in mind.

Stabbing him to death will take a long time, at the end of which your character will be covered in blood.

From my own point of view-- which I realize may not be that helpful given your character's disposition and personal abilities-- I would pleasure the creep senseless, and then, once I felt certain that he believed I was under his control, I would garotte him and bash his head repeatedly against something sharp, like the edge of a table or the bedstead, until he was
knocked out or dead. If I wanted him dead after he was knocked out I would put him on the floor and drop the leg of the bed onto his temple a couple of times, or hit him with a chair if there was one available.

In any case-- killing another human being is not the simple process we have been led to believe in by TV and the movies. Even knocking someone out takes a great deal of luck or skill, especially if they are bigger than you are.

I hope this was helpful!

rtilryarms
10-19-2006, 10:26 PM
I would pleasure the creep senseless

We may need a demonstration on this. Can you post on Utube please?

Elektra
10-20-2006, 03:13 AM
You mentioned there was a meal--can she throw boiling hot coffee or tea at his face?

wordmonkey
10-20-2006, 03:25 AM
Two things.

Flailing and swinging she smacks her forearm, or elblow up under his nose. I believe you can break the bone and send the shard of bone back and up into the brain.

Alternatively if she access to a bottle use that as a weapon. Don't have her try and break like a movie bar-fight. Hold the body and use the neck as the weapon part. Ramming the neck into his armpit will drop him good.

Also, pop out to the library or book store and buy a book about miltary survival training. Lots of good stuff there.

aruna
10-20-2006, 05:21 PM
A person who is completely untrained in martial arts and who has never engaged in combat before (you didn't mention these as factors for your main character) is more than likely NOT going to be able to kill or disable another person quickly or easily with her bare hands.


From my own point of view-- which I realize may not be that helpful given your character's disposition and personal abilities-- I would pleasure the creep senseless, and then, once I felt certain that he believed I was under his control, I would garotte him and bash his head repeatedly against something sharp, like the edge of a table or the bedstead, until he was
knocked out or dead. If I wanted him dead after he was knocked out I would put him on the floor and drop the leg of the bed onto his temple a couple of times, or hit him with a chair if there was one available.


Thanks for your input! Actually, she has had some training and is actually quite good at martial arts - but knows her limitations. She's also a very feisty (ugh, hate that word!) person, and the situation is such that more than her own life is at stake, so her motivation to act extraordinarily brave is given.
I like the thing with pleasuring him senseless and have used it in my final revision - I will acknowledge you in the credits when it's published!!!!;)

aruna
10-20-2006, 05:22 PM
Wasn't that what Sandra Bullock did for her talent in Miss Congeniality?

Yep, something like that!

Thought Leadership
10-20-2006, 05:44 PM
Imagine her kneeling above him (you can work out the details!). He stretched his head back, thus exposing his windpipe/adams apple. She swipes her arm sideways as hard as she can, her outstretched and very stiff fingers go under the adams apple, through the skiln...his windpipe, voice box and assorted major nerves ripped out...

Or, during a caress she presses suddenly and firmly with both thumbs into the depressions just to the side and slightly behind the eyes (Vagus nerve, as I recall) Death follows...

aruna
10-20-2006, 06:14 PM
Imagine her kneeling above him etc...

OUCH!!! That's TERRIBLE! I can have her imagining it but thank God she doesn;t have to do it...

sharra
10-20-2006, 07:03 PM
Just a thought - most women, and anyone who is a bit smaller than average, will be able to do more damage with the heel of the hand than trying to punch someone. They're also a lot less likely to break their own hand.
On the head & shoulders go for temples, eyes, nose,& throat. Base of the skull where it meets the spinal column.
Body wise go for the sternum - it's one place that's almost impossible to build muscle up on, so can be vulnerable. Collarbone is good, also the diaphram.
Avoid groin shots since if the assailant is faster, he'll trap her knee & she can't escape.
Kneecaps are pretty vulnerable; a good swift downward kick followed by a swift punch to the throat means 99.9% of people receiving this are too busy figuring out how to breath for the next few minutes to worry about much else.
She might not kill him, but if she has martial arts skills & he doesn't she would probably be able to put him on the floor.

Billytwice
10-21-2006, 12:23 AM
I don’t know about killing someone with your bare hands but you could disable the target without using a weapon.
How about a dead-leg? A tactic learnt on the rugby fields of Wales. It involves a sharp blow with the knee to the target's outside thigh. If done sharply and strong enough it causes excruciating, disabling pain. The target invariably falls to the floor rolling in agony. It's only slightly less painful than a kick in the orchestra pit but much longer lasting.
The target takes ages to recover from it with the added bonus that it would seriously slow him down with a limp (being unable to flex his leg muscles for up to a day.) This could lead into an interesting chase scene.

TeddyG
10-21-2006, 12:26 AM
Aruna fess up..
You just developed that whole scenario...to figure out how to get rid of me with your bare hands....

what some people will go through just to try and kill me...sheesh :D

rtilryarms
10-21-2006, 12:53 AM
Aruna fess up..
You just developed that whole scenario...to figure out how to get rid of me with your bare hands....

what some people will go through just to try and kill me...sheesh :D

*** SPECIAL * SPECIAL * SPECIAL ***

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TeddyG
10-21-2006, 12:55 AM
*** SPECIAL * SPECIAL * SPECIAL ***

RTILRYARMS
SCHOOL OF
AGGRESSIVE
SELF DEFENSE

Free Tuition for Aruna...today only

*** SPECIAL * SPECIAL * SPECIAL ***

What goes around...comes around...I have loads of patience :D

Summonere
10-21-2006, 04:16 AM
chokes -- shime-waza -- hadaka jime -- et alia

“Simplest” thing to do is to choke the guy out. There your character has a choice. Hold it till the villain conks out (takes about eight to fourteen seconds), in which case he’ll wake woozy and disoriented (in about ten to twenty seconds), or hold till he dies (no experience there, so I can’t help you on that one). A nice, good choke shuts down blood flow to the brain, as well as oxygen. This energy-efficient (in terms of energy expended by the choker, not the chokee) technique is often executed from behind your opponent, your arm wrapped around his neck, your elbow positioned in front of his throat, so your arm can compress both carotids and air-supply with a simple scissors-like motion.

One popular method of execution is the so-called pull-back choke, in which the free hand grasps the wrist of the choking arm; another is one in which the choking arm’s position remains the same as in the pull-back, but the hand of the choking arm locks into the crook of the free arm, the hand of that free arm wrapping against and applying pressure to the back of the chokee’s head.

Other chokes can be applied from other angles, front, side, back, using arms, legs, or the shirt or jacket or coat or scarf worn by the chokee (collar chokes using clothing take longer to work). Silat even applies a “choke” using a toe pressed into a carotid -- I won’t attempt explaining that one.

Effective chokes don’t take a long time to learn at all. What takes longer is learning how to apply them in the midst of combat, in which your positions are not always advantageous and your opponent is resisting.

bludgeoning and whoop-arse

The old bust-a-nose-bone-and-shove-into-the-brain ploy is probably so unlikely as to be almost useless but, yeah, it could happen. More likely, though, getting busted in the nose causes both eyes to water (well, mine did, lots of times), which causes a moment of blurry vision and breathing-through-the-nose difficulties, which then leads to breathing-through-the-mouth difficulties -- namely, increased likelihood of suffering a broken jaw once it’s hit.

Your character could beat the guy to death. If she’s a trained martial artist, that’s one way to do it. It’s noisy, though, if the guy starts hollering, and it takes longer than a choke. Sometimes a lot longer, depending less on her skill than the victim’s will to live -- and how much he outweighs her, and whether or not he has some basic notion of how to defend himself. Also, seriously beating the head will cause profuse bleeding from the nose, mouth, and ears. Your MC will get bloody doing that.

Cracking ribs hurts. Breaking a collarbone completely disables the arm on the broken side -- then again, so does breaking the arm -- but breaking a collarbone also means the shoulder on that side can’t be used against you (unless somebody’s on some serious drugs). Seriously pummeling the body can damage internal organs and lead to death, too, but death-by-bare-handed bludgeoning usually takes longer than death-by, say, two-by-four caving in a skull.

Of course there’s always the smash-him-over-the-head-with-something ploy (two-by-four notwithstanding). At close quarters, knees and elbows will do, but so will a vase (it works in the movies: imagine getting socked in the face with a potted plant), or a table lamp, or a small table, or a drawer pulled from an end-table...

incapacitation and damn, that hurts

As mentioned above, any of those ploys can be used to incapacitate a victim so long as they’re not carried through to termination.

A solid blow to the solar plexus will poof the wind out of your bad guy’s sails.

Other popular martial arts tricks involve eye-pokes and kicks to shins, knees, and groin. Open-hand strikes to the ear are used to take away an opponent’s equilibrium. Of interest to note: it doesn’t take very much at all to hyperextend someone’s leg when they’re standing normally. Leverage of simple kicks multiply the higher up the shin you go till you get to the knee.

Gunting is a system of striking used to incapacitate an opponent’s limbs by striking nerves and muscles with blunt or edged trauma. Kali, Arnis, and Escrima are interested in destroying an opponent’s ability to wield weapons by utlizing such strikes.

in bed

A leg-coil can be used to break a leg. On the ground, for instance (or in bed, a situation your MC may find herself in), you’d wrap the opponent’s leg with your own, then use a pelvic thrust against the knee to bend it the wrong way.

A double arm break can be made (or a single, if only one arm is captured) if, say, your MC is on her back, the villain on top of her, and she gets her legs around him, over his shoulders, whereupon she’d have to grab his wrists to keep his hands close, whereupon a pelvic thrust would bend the arms the wrong way at the elbows.

knife and fork

Shoot, if she has a knife, she’s in business, especially if she’s trained to use it, and if it’s sharp (not all martial arts train with knives, and not all train equally well -- Filipino martial arts like kali and silat are good with this). If it’s a butter knife, say, she could still inflict painful and debilitating injury by striking the eye (same goes with the fork), clavicular notch (that little divot at the base of the throat, between the knobby ends of the collarbone -- it has an official name, but I’ve forgotten it -- just press inward and down and see what happens...fingers work well, too), armpit, brachial nerve (susceptible to any blunt trauma, by the way, which will send an electrical zing down your arm when you twang it -- go ahead, it’s right there on the inside of your upper arm, rub your knuckles up and down the biceps, right against the bone...that's a version of what gunting will do).

summation and other possibilities

Now I’m gotten overly technical in what may not be a technical matter. Sorry. Lots of possible answers available, not just these.

Maybe your MC can drink the guy under the table?

aruna
10-21-2006, 08:58 AM
chokes -- shime-waza -- hadaka jime -- et alia

“Simplest” thing to do is to choke the guy out. There your character has a choice. Hold it till the villain conks out (takes about eight to fourteen seconds), in which case he’ll wake woozy and disoriented (in about ten to twenty seconds), or hold till he dies (no experience there, so I can’t help you on that one). A nice, good choke shuts down blood flow to the brain, as well as oxygen. This energy-efficient (in terms of energy expended by the choker, not the chokee) technique is often executed from behind your opponent, your arm wrapped around his neck, your elbow positioned in front of his throat, so your arm can compress both carotids and air-supply with a simple scissors-like motion.



Wow, I don;t think I'll be wanting for moves! I was thinking last night - what about simple strangulation? Like, they are in bed together, doing the nasty, his neck exposed - and she grabs and presses? Would she be abkle to, as an averagely built woman, with some fighting skills, and he's a an averagely built man, but in bad health and bad condition? Or even with the pillow?

aruna
10-21-2006, 09:00 AM
What goes around...comes around...I have loads of patience :D

Teddy, TeddyG, what am I to say? You have caught me out!;)

Kentuk
10-21-2006, 09:12 AM
Rage
Killing someone without a real weapon is rather simple gain an advantage and don't stop until long after they are dead. A salad fork will work eventually.

Kentuk

Jamesaritchie
10-21-2006, 07:08 PM
Your son is wrong. It takes about five minutes to get to the point where you can kill someone with your bare hands. But for a woman, the only realistic way to do so is the throat. There are several ways to do the job, but the surest is to use the index and middle fingers. Without getting technical, you simply jab hard just to the right of the windpipe, curl your fingers around the back of the windpipe and pull hard.

Even a fairly small woman can crush everything in there, and the man will die from suffocation within a couple of minutes. It works very well. There's no muscle to get past, and how strong the man is doesn't matter.

Just don't miss. You won't get another chance.

Most of the other ways you hear are nonsense. They can only be done by a fairly strong man, and often not even then.

Men have weak points. Most notably the eyes, the throat, the gonads, and the knees.

And do not be fooled by how much pressure it supposedly takes to break a bone. This, too, is usually meaningless, and believing it can get you killed. The skull, for example, usually breaks at only eight pounds per square inch, but you can still sometimes bounce a two by four off a skull without harming it.

Forget choking. Without a wepon, a woman isn't going to choke a man out. In fact, putting a choke hold on a man pretty much guarantees you're going to die. There is no choke hold a woman can put on a man that isn't easily escapable, and that can't be instantly used to disable the woman.

The only real chance an unarmed woman has against a man is to strike to a vulnerable spot and then scream and run like hell.

But it's an incredibly rare time when there isn't some weapon lying around. A stiletto heel can easily penetrate a man's skull. A simple wooden pencil can be shoved through the throat, or when held right and shoved through the top of the throat upward with the heel of the hand, will penetrate all the way into the brain.

On the average person, the surface on the heart is only about one inch beneath the skin. Almost anything with a sharp point can go deep enough to rupture the heart, if you don't hit a rib.

But no matter what, you get one chance. A man can disable or kill a woman with a single blow, so you can stand around hoping to fight it out. You hit once, and you run. You don't wait aorund to see how well your strike did, when it's with a hand, a fist, a foot, or a weapon, because if it does not disable or kill the man, he will probably kill you.

scarletpeaches
10-21-2006, 07:20 PM
Your son is wrong.

But I'm guessing he has manners enough to disagree with someone politely rather than flat out saying they're wrong.

aruna
10-21-2006, 08:50 PM
....the only realistic way to do so is the throat. There are several ways to do the job, but the surest is to use the index and middle fingers. Without getting technical, you simply jab hard just to the right of the windpipe, curl your fingers around the back of the windpipe and pull hard.

.

Thanks, this looks like a suitable method in the curcumstance.

ColoradoGuy
10-21-2006, 09:01 PM
Thanks, this looks like a suitable method in the curcumstance.
This still would be tough to do if the guy has average or larger strap muscles (the ones on either side of the larynx). It might help (help, listen to me!) for her to begin with a smash at the larynx straight-on to crush some of the laryngeal cartilage into the airway. That would make it harder for him to get air while she was busy ripping out his throat. It still would be tough, though, unless, as James said, she attacks very agressively and very fast.

Dollywagon
10-21-2006, 09:20 PM
Unless you disable him immediately, he is going to lash out and any plan goes to pot. Also he is going to be able to raise the alarm.
Any stabbing scene is going to involve you being covered with blood.

I'd go for the throat, but with an object such as the spine edge of a book, or maybe the plate that you mentioned earlier? Frisbee it into his throat and then finish him off, probably by strangulation.

Failed writer, up for contract work - :roll:

Edit - We were posting at the same time, Colorado Guy. Great minds and all that!

Tiger
10-21-2006, 10:11 PM
The only things I can think of involve strangulation--a la jujutsu.

1. Wait 'til the baddie knocks her down and is bent over her. Victim should be supine.

2. Wrap left leg around the back of creep's neck,

3. Wedge the ankle left leg behind the knee of the right leg

4. Bend right leg to lock this "triangle"

5. Wait approximately 60 seconds

6. Serve cold

The best way for a smaller person to overcome a large attacker is to pit her largest muscles against his smaller ones... IOW: even if the guy's pretty strong, his arms would lose against your MC's larger legs, glutes and abs. Also, his neck and back muscles would lose against her 100+ pounds of dead weight pulling him downward; he wouldn't be able to straighten up let alone go anywhere. Moreover, his hands and feet are not anywhere where they could get at anything vital on your MC.

The only challenge would be in putting the hold on him in the first place... May I suggest that Madame begin with a heal to the groin?

Hope this helps.

-Dean

kikazaru
10-22-2006, 04:16 AM
I like the simplicity and relatively cleanliness of the old blunt instrument or cosh. She could put a small object in a sock (or perhaps her bra cup - those elastic straps might add an extra bit of leverage!) and bash him - but firstly she must distract him enough to be able to do this, which brings me to my second idea..If they are having a meal together, perhaps she could dump a bunch of pepper in her palm and when he comes close enough, she could throw it in his face causing searing pain and blindness. She would then grab her cosh, give him a good clout and high tail it out the window - leaving a snot smeared, teary eyed, lumpy headed scoundrel knocked out cold.

Dario D.
10-22-2006, 11:51 AM
You'd need some serious physical strength, I think, to kill someone with your bare hands, but it's not impossible to break someone's neck with some effort. According to action movies, a good head-twist works with minimal effort. Of course, I've never tried twisting someone's head off, but I figure a really, really hard jerk would do the job.

For realistic effect, you could make your character try the twist several times, with no effect, then strain with all her might and give one super-hard twist that finally gets it done. I don't recall seeing that kind of trial-and-error in any action movies or anything, so it should pass off as being original, too. :)

aruna
10-22-2006, 05:18 PM
Thanks to everyone, and I relaly have more than enough options to choose form now. As I said, she doesn't have to actually go through with killing or maiming him; all she has to do it consider the possibilities mentally. Before she can actually do it she is rescued.

I have one last question. What if she sees, on the wall behind the bed she and creep are on, a length of cord hanging from a loose, rusty nail. It's a cord used to tie back the mosquito net, or a curtain. She can easily grab the cord and pull it from the wall, and use it to strangle creep, can't she? How would this happen? I'd like to see that rusty nail going into his windpipe.

As you can see, I have absolutely no experience killing creeps. I could have done with some of this info back when I was 20!

Dollywagon
10-22-2006, 10:47 PM
What is this .... an Agatha Christie novel!!!!

"I know, I'll sling a bit of relevant information at them at the last minute."

I thought we weren't allowed props ... you said no props ... other than the plates and stuff ... Puh!

Anyway, when it comes to strangling him, couldn't you do it with any bit of disguarded clothing ... ?

Variant Frequencies
10-23-2006, 03:52 AM
A friend who has wrestled professionally suggested the "guillotine choke" hold. It's described and pictured here (http://www.answers.com/topic/guillotine-choke). If she's lying on her back with her legs around his waist and her arms locked together, he should be pretty helpless and lose consciousness quickly.

aruna
10-23-2006, 09:23 AM
What is this .... an Agatha Christie novel!!!! No

"I know, I'll sling a bit of relevant information at them at the last minute."

I thought we weren't allowed props ... you said no props ... other than the plates and stuff ... Puh!


This is not a rigid rule hammered in stone. I can't have stiletto heels, handbags, pepper sprays, or any of the dangerous things an urban young woman might have on her. I can't have iron pokers because there's no fireplace (it's in the tropics), and I can't have an expensive heavy statuette of Cupid because it's a very primitive room. There's a bed with bedclothes, and as it's in the tropics the bed would have a mosquito net, which can quite plausibly be held back with a cord hammered to the wall with an old nail.

Plausibilty trumps everything. She has to use what's to hand; her bare hands or the basic stuff in the room. I didn't "see" the cord hanging behind the bed at first. I took a closer look, and "saw" it, just as she did. And I thought, just as she did, "Wow, a weapon!";)

While writing I often have little essential details jump out at me at the last moment - don't you? That's the whole fun of writing. This might be one of them. Or might not.

brer
10-23-2006, 09:46 AM
How real do you want it?

A lot of the suggestions given here, imo, will probably work for a book of fiction.
(Except for pepper spray. All that junk is good for is to discourage pranksters or punks who only wanted a cheap feel. Just watch "Cops," which a lot of people have, so they'll know this.)

It would be nice to see something that is, what I would consider, "realistic."

- - - - - - - -
The following is purely my opinion:
(I'll pretend I'm explaining this to my daughter, except I don't have one.)

[ quick aside: In the movie Taxi Driver (Robert De Niro), the MC had a hard time killing that Pimp ... that scene still gives me the shivers. Maybe that's why so many hitters carry ten pounds of stuff (pistols, knifes, etc.). ]

I'll assume your MC is a young woman around 100-120 lbs, and around 5' 3'' ... and that the bully man is around 180-260 lbs, and around 6'.
And that your MC is a typical normal decent person with a typical normal background (i.e. a civilian).

After your MC has stunned the bullyman a couple of times (I'll get into how she might be able to do this later, if I remember), one would think that the obvious thing for her to do is to use one of her high heels, and whip it hard against the man. All that force will get concentrated into the tip of the heel, and the pressure at the tip will be high. High enough supposedly to pierce a skull. Whether or not it will, probably doesn't matter for practical purposes. But it is probably the easiest way for a woman to hurt a man, and would be effective on any part of his body, skull and soft tissue. But ... the way shoes are made nowadays, the heel would probably fall apart on contact (maybe even in mid-air) and she'd end-up slapping the bullyman awake with the sole of her shoe. That's bad news. And, aren't high-heels out of fashion for now?

It's unrealistic for your MC to punch the bullyman. It's normal for a person, who is untrained, to pull his punches. That is, as the person swings/punches, his arm starts slowing down and his wrist relaxes as contact is about to be made. That's one reason why beginners are often told to punch through the target, e.g. try to punch the back of the opponent's head (fist hits face first).

It's unrealistic for your MC to hit the bullyman with straightened fingers or with a fist. Most (civilian) men I've met have weak fingers and wrists. They can't even do a single pushup on their fingertips or fists; and that only puts a small fraction of their weight on the fingers/wrists.

If your MC swings/punches fingers or fist at the bullyman's face or neck, she probably won't get a good shot in because most people jerk their faces when something flys at it.
And if your MC connects, it'll probably be a glancing blow and its effectiveness will be reduced because she is swinging upward.

If your MC did have an opportunity to strike bullyman in the nose or up-under-the-chin, I'd suggest she use the heal of an open palm. That way, there is no wrist to bend/break and usually she won't "pull the punch" because, psychologically, she won't think she's punching.

And that is one of the biggest problems for a civilian victim to overcome, the psychology of the situation. I've seen situations where a bullyman would pick on another man by giving him short pokes or quick shoves (with the excuse they are playing-around). The victim finally gets fed up and decides to strike back. But his punch always seems to be pulled somewhat, and the bullyman is not hurt much, which then devastates the victim psychologically because he sees that he is "weak" and so the victim basically covers up and hopes the bullyman won't beat on him too bad. Now that is between men. Imagine if the victim is a slender woman.

So, first of all, the woman MC has to stun the bullyman for a second (in time) or two. (Not a minute, imo, most real vicious fights don't last a minute before there is a winner). She should use that second as an opportunity to hurt and stun the bullyman some more and to find a weapon (winebottle, bat, brass candlestick).

No, your MC better not try to strangle the bullyman with her bare hands. That is very hard to do, even with a rope. If somehow you got your MC strangling the bullyman with a rope, have her twist a stick or utinsil to tighten the rope. The stick will give her the leverage and grip to choke him.

And please don't have your MC choke bullyman with her hands, like using a grip that involves thumbs. Grips involving thumbs are weak.
Choking using forearms are difficult to implement in real life, even when you're semi-trained. (The other guy just won't stay still long enough, ya know what I mean?)
So, it's unrealistic for a slender woman to choke a man with her hands or forearms or rope due to her lack of strength and weight. The man can literally throw her about.

Your MC shouldn't be on top of the man, that is a very vulnerable place for her. All he has to do is roll on his back, or bang his back into a wall with her on his back, or he grabs her hair and pulls her over his shoulder.

Because a civilian's wrists are so weak, sometimes it's suggested a person strike with his/her elbow. Unfortunately, that means having to get real close, and usually is effective if you are taller and the other person is not aware.

Having your MC try to kick bullyman in the jewels is not practical. The kick will probably be telegraphed (by a mile), and/or the kick will hit the inside of his thighs. It is unlikely that she will be lucky and hit the spot containing all the nerves.
I've seen a man kick another man in his abdomen with a sidekick. All that accomplished was the second man folding/bending and grabbing the other guy's leg and falling on top of him.

As for having your MC try to poke, or gouge, bullyman's eyes with her fingers, well that is probably not going to work because her fingers will be weak, and psychologically that is a hard thing for a victim to do.

Whatever technique she uses, would probably best be something that psychologically she isn't aware that it would really hurt the man, and would use the major muscles groups.
For instance, she could use her legs to choke the man, but she should be facing away from the man so she wouldn't see his face. All she would be doing is concentrating on squeezing. If she sees his face, she will become psyched out (slowly, physically killing another human is not an easy thing to do for a normal person).
Another possibility, as she is face to face with him, she can demurely lower her head toward his crotch (and bend her knees). Guys normally react by bending their heads to watch where she goes. Then she concentrates on straightening her knees and bopping her head up and push up on her toes at the same time. This technique uses major muscles groups and her head against his chin or nose. And psychologically, she isn't aware of all the damage she'll be doing to the man.

And no matter what technique she uses, you'll have to explain to the reader why she knows that technique.
Like, her uncle (a Seal/UDT?) taught her one summer, and something a civilian with a soft-mindset could apply in a real situation (psych-wise).

Just some thoughts, stuff I would have discussed with my daughter.
(And I'd have my daughter wear a metal belt that wraps fashionably twice, or thrice, around her waist. But that's another story.)

Tiger
10-23-2006, 10:11 AM
I agree with what brer said. The most unrealistic scenes in action movies involve slight, 100lb. women with 8" arms socking a guy in the chin with her fist and having him fly backwards, or sweeping aside a haymaker punch and then locking his treetrunk arms behind his back with her bare hands.

In the scenario I described above, she'd just need to grab hold of the creep's wrists/long shirt sleeve/thumbs long enough for her to throw her legs around his neck--this can be done quickly especially if your creep doesn't fear a woman who's lying on her back.

Also, I'd think that psychologically, she'd be more committed this way. The fact that her legs are locked together would mean she'd have to unlock them in order to show her moment of weakness.

Just my 2 pence

aruna
10-23-2006, 10:15 AM
Thanks, Brer and Tiger. I can easily foreshadow this as earlier in the ms I have her training with someone who teaches her some self defence tricks.

spike
10-23-2006, 11:41 PM
Don't know how this will play in your story, but have her suggest he undress and, if you've dressed him in a pullover sweater, he will have to pull it over his head. That leaves his face covered and his arms restricted, giving her an advantage.

Another idea: While kicking a man in his genitals is rather difficult, if you are in an intimate position with a naked man, it is easy to grab and twist his testicles.

This one is kind of far fetched, but if there is food, is there salt? Could she get it into his eyes? I saw this happen to a boy in school and he cried like a baby.

aruna
10-24-2006, 09:33 AM
Don't know how this will play in your story, but have her suggest he undress and, if you've dressed him in a pullover sweater, he will have to pull it over his head. That leaves his face covered and his arms restricted, giving her an advantage.

.

NO! This is the TROPICS!

But grabbing and twistingth eballs is another thing she might think of.
God, I'm so glad she doesn;t have to actually DO all this stuff!

threedogpeople
10-24-2006, 11:56 AM
What about cutting the brachial artery? Someone will bleed out very fast when it's cut and it isn't too deep to reasonably reach. A good jab under the arm with a small knife, nail file or razor blade would do it (at least that's what I envision).

Judy

Tiger
10-25-2006, 09:06 AM
NO! This is the TROPICS!

But grabbing and twistingth eballs is another thing she might think of.
God, I'm so glad she doesn;t have to actually DO all this stuff!

That's killing me just thinking about it....

-Dean

jsh
12-15-2006, 02:22 AM
chokes -- shime-waza -- hadaka jime -- et alia

“Simplest” thing to do is to choke the guy out.
Indeed, chokes are very efficient. If he's on top of her, face to face, she can to a triangle choke by pushing his, say, left arm across his body, so that it goes under his chin. Her left arm goes up and around his neck, and she reaches around anchoring her left hand in her right elbow. Then she bends her right arm, puts her hand on his forehead, and squeezes her elbows together. If the choke is seated properly, and if his neck isn't too muscular, he'll be out in under ten seconds. To kill, she'll have to continue to hold until he actually dies, and I don't know how long that takes.

I suggest that, since it's realistic, and it will be quiet when she ambushes him w/ it.