Is "Forgiveness" Trendy?

JennaGlatzer · Sep 24, 2006

I don't know if this has always been the case, but it seems that people advocate forgiving those who've done you wrong, for your own peace of mind.

My problem with that is that I think (a) there are some people who don't deserve to be forgiven, and (b) I think most people are lying when they say they've forgiven someone who's done something unthinkably bad. So why bother saying it?

Case in point: Was talking to a friend of mine the other day, and she told me that she "forgave" her father for abusing her. She went to him and said she forgave him, but added that she still hoped he'd wind up in hell for what he'd done to her. I don't get it... isn't that sort of the antithesis of forgiveness?

Similarly, a doctor once told me that I should try to forgive the man who raped me, and all I could think was... why? I don't see that as a reasonable goal. I see that some people should just put less focus on their anger with someone/s, that they shouldn't let themselves be consumed by hurt or rage or whatever, but why does that mean forgiveness should be involved? "I am not going to waste my time being angry with you" means something different from "I forgive you," in my opinion.

I also think that some relationships can be mended without real forgiveness: i.e., your spouse cheated on you with your best friend. Someday, maybe you can repair your friendship, but that doesn't really mean you've forgiven the act. It just means you're willing to move past it.

I guess I feel that if you're "forgiving" someone just so you can feel better, it's not really forgiveness. What do you think?

jbal · Sep 24, 2006

To feel better is the only reason to forgive someone. Why hold on to hate or anger? If someone can let it go they will be better off. And what else is forgiveness other than letting these things go? That doesn't mean that people who have wronged you have to be your best friend or anything, just that you don't hold on to negativity towards them.

PeeDee · Sep 24, 2006

I cannot, for the life of me, think of a single wrong or injustice that anyone's every done to me which I still hold a grudge for, or even feel particularly upset about. It's not that things haven't happened -- somewhere in there, they have -- it's that I let them go, and I got on with it.

I've heard that you should hold onto your anger, your sense of being wronged, because it makes you stronger, and it makes you more careful. I guess that's true, but I'm no good for that. I am, by default, a nice guy.

Mostly, that means that while I can rage and fume about something...eventually, I forgive. I don't forget and I won't necessarily trust you again, but those are entirely seperate things. I forgive, which means I get over it already and I move on with my life.

Not that I'm advocating the Nice Guy lifestyle for everyone, since mostly it involves getting kicked in the head repeatedly.

Rachael · Sep 24, 2006

I don't know. I forgave my rapist, but I still have major issues because of the rape... as I'm sure most people who know me could readily attest to.

There is a difference between 'not wasting my time being angry with you' and 'forgiving you'. And I do think that not forgiving someone (even if you're not wasting your time being angry with them) still does hurt you, in the end. I think I would be significantly worse off than I am now if I hadn't forgiven him.

However, that being said... I haven't told him to his face that I forgive him, and honestly, I pray every day I won't run into him (he lives 10 minutes away from my home). But since moving out of state to go to school, I've been more at ease walking around by myself.

So... anyways... that was my ADD-tainted attempt at answering your question.

ETA: I agree with what PeeDee said about forgiveness... you forgive them, but you don't necessarily let them get in a position where they can hurt you again.

GPatten · Sep 24, 2006

I forgive those who’ve stepped on my toes, or have unwittingly, got in the way of my momentum on what ever I’m doing; things such as that.

I don’t forgive those who have purposely wronged me whether it has caused harm, or not; not ever, never, never.

In fact I may have revenge hidden deep within my mind, body, and soul.

aadams73 · Sep 24, 2006

JennaGlatzer said:
Similarly, a doctor once told me that I should try to forgive the man who raped me, and all I could think was... why? I don't see that as a reasonable goal.

I think you can put that behind you, but forgiveness? No way. Been there, done that, forgiveness is not an option.

It is possible to let go so that you don't carry anger around with you like an extra handbag, but true forgiveness just isn't always possible. I also think that sometimes we tell people we forgive them so we can make*them* feel better.

Given that, I can forgive the little stuff easily enough(like when my family didn't call me on my birthday one year.)

SC Harrison · Sep 24, 2006

I think some people actually use the forgiveness ritual as an argument tool. I'm not talking about those who have been really hurt by the one they are "forgiving", such as victims of abuse or other crimes. I'm talking about those who are offended by something someone said or did, and they're trying to make sure that person feels adequately guilty for their act.

As far as forgiveness as a cathartic act, as delivered by the victim of a serious violation, there may be some value in it. It may allow the victim to downgrade the person to being merely human, as opposed to some evil entity. Not a good human, mind you, but also not a larger-than-life demon to be feared forever.

jbal · Sep 24, 2006

Why are there so many rape victims?

Bartholomew · Sep 24, 2006

JennaGlatzer said:
My problem with that is that I think (a) there are some people who don't deserve to be forgiven, and (b) I think most people are lying when they say they've forgiven someone who's done something unthinkably bad. So why bother saying it?

It is fully possible to Forgive but not Forget.

Wordworm · Sep 24, 2006

I tend to agree with you, Jenna. I find it difficult to imagine someone totally and unconditionally forgiving for any atrocious act—although therein lies the real question, I suppose. We each have to individually draw the lines on what is "forgivable" and what is "unforgivable".

When I think back on my life, it's hard for me to think of anything that's happened to me that was so wrong or bad as to be unforgivable. Unlike you. And there's where different sets of experience generates different feelings—and I think forgiveness is very much a "feeling" thing.

I also think that some people "transfer" their feelings of pain, resentment, anger, etc into or through their religious beliefs, and that's how they reach a state of "forgiveness", but I also hasten to add that this has never worked for me.

Rachael · Sep 24, 2006

Agreed, Bartholomew. And I must say, I don't think I'm really lying when I say I've forgiven my rapist... if I'm not being totally truthful, then I'm misguided and in denial.

JennaGlatzer · Sep 24, 2006

Exactly... I'm good at forgiving people who just did something thoughtless or rude, but I sort of don't get the concept of forgiving the really unthinkably bad stuff.

I'm being serious when I ask this, so please don't take it wrong, but what does it mean to forgive someone who's done something really, really wrong? Physical abuse, sexual abuse, murder, serious betrayal... that sort of stuff. I just don't understand what that even means in that context. "It's okay that you killed my grandmother. I forgive you." Huh? I don't see why that ever should be forgiven, only why it should be put behind you.

So when you say you've forgiven your rapist, Rachael, what does that mean to you? Maybe I just have a different definition of forgiveness.

Bartholomew · Sep 24, 2006

Rachael said:
Agreed, Bartholomew. And I must say, I don't think I'm really lying when I say I've forgiven my rapist... if I'm not being totally truthful, then I'm misguided and in denial.

That's a pretty big 'If.' Have you thought about it long enough?

It is very difficult to forgive someone in practice and very easy to forgive them in theory.

Perhaps it is the challange to our morals that drives us to this concept.

kikazaru · Sep 24, 2006

I always wonder about the people who have forgiven the most horrendous crimes against them or their loved ones. I recall reading about a couple who forgave their daughter's murderer enough to have a relationship with him while he was in prison. That baffles me.

On the other hand perhaps people have said they "forgive" someone when they no longer have burning hatred in their hearts. Imo that isn't forgiveness so much as not allowing someone to have any more of your energy. I recall a saying which I'm sure I'm quoting imperfectly but it says "holding on to resentment is like swallowing poison and hoping the other guy dies." I think many people who say they "forgive" are really just severing the emotional ties that continue between them and their sworn enemy. If people can do that, it is probably goes a long way toward their healing - but imo it isn't forgiveness.

Rachael · Sep 24, 2006

And I read somewhere that like 13% of all rapes and sexual assault cases are ever reported... I think that's a bit under-exaggerated (or something -_-), but still...

ETA: And I think that you can forgive someone and still be nowhere close to healed.

aadams73 · Sep 24, 2006

kikazaru said:
I always wonder about the people who have forgiven the most horrendous crimes against them or their loved ones. I recall reading about a couple who forgave their daughter's murderer enough to have a relationship with him while he was in prison. That baffles me.

I don't get that either. I might say I forgave them publicly, but I'd just be lying while I bided my time.(maybe that makes me a bad and vengeful person)

Bartholomew · Sep 24, 2006

JennaGlatzer said:
Exactly... I'm good at forgiving people who just did something thoughtless or rude, but I sort of don't get the concept of forgiving the really unthinkably bad stuff.

I'm being serious when I ask this, so please don't take it wrong, but what does it mean to forgive someone who's done something really, really wrong? Physical abuse, sexual abuse, murder, serious betrayal... that sort of stuff. I just don't understand what that even means in that context. "It's okay that you killed my grandmother. I forgive you." Huh? I don't see why that ever should be forgiven, only why it should be put behind you.

So when you say you've forgiven your rapist, Rachael, what does that mean to you? Maybe I just have a different definition of forgiveness.

I'll chance an answer here.

Forgiveness is being able to look someone in the eyes without filling with rage.

Forgiveness is the acknowledgement that the person who's offended you is human; that he is capable of error on massive levels.

Forgiveness is the ability to exist in society side by side with someone who has wronged you.

But forgiveness does *NOT* mean allowing that person another chance to repeat his mistakes. It is not to be mistaken for putting a welcome mat on your stomach and allowing people to walk over you.

Vincent · Sep 24, 2006

I'd have to say it's a Christian thing. Or a general religious thing. Love thy enemy, you know? I'd also have to say I think there's a much stronger, more basic human desire to see some sort of vengeance. To see the bastard pay for what they did. A lot of what passes for legal justice is really just vengeance, despite how it's dressed up. And you only have to look at books and movies to see what a popular and appealing theme revenge is.

Rachael · Sep 24, 2006

JennaGlatzer said:
So when you say you've forgiven your rapist, Rachael, what does that mean to you? Maybe I just have a different definition of forgiveness.

It means that... when I speak about him, I don't have bitterness in my voice. And when I think about him, I don't feel anger towards him. And while I might attribute several of my quirks to what he did to me, I don't constantly blame him for it. And I don't want revenge. And... I don't even mention 'who' raped me when I talk about what happened to me.

I guess, by my own standards, I haven't completely, 100% forgiven him, but I think I've mostly succeeded.

Does that mean I'm not psycho? Ha! One or two of you know me far better than that...

Rachael · Sep 24, 2006

Yes... it's definitely religious.

I guess it's another thing that people who aren't convicted to do it won't understand. Don't take that the wrong way-- *I* don't understand it.

GPatten · Sep 24, 2006

Forgiving a child molester, a rapist, and a murder is not what I would do if I were a victim.

Denial is a river in Africa. There must be a river somewhere named Forgiveness, but I can’t find it.

Perks · Sep 24, 2006

This is an interesting topic and I'd have to say that I can only forgive what I can wrap my brain around. If I can get to a place where I understand why something happened, I can possibly forgive it. Obviously, this will exclude a great many things.

Unique · Sep 24, 2006

Perks said:
This is an interesting topic and I'd have to say that I can only forgive what I can wrap my brain around. If I can get to a place where I understand why something happened, I can possibly forgive it. Obviously, this will exclude a great many things.

Thanks, Perks. That made me feel better.

Bravo · Sep 24, 2006

i dont think forgiveness is necessary in every situation, but there are certainly degrees to forgiveness which would not only be gracious, but help you heal.

that said, i dont see the rationale for forgiving some1 who isnt repentent &/or for some1 whom you never loved in the 1st place.

w all things there has to be some sort of balance. when you forgive a person, you are basically giving away a part of power you hold over him/her.

it's like, when a child screws up, he fears the parent not just b/c the parent can punish him, but b/c he's worried that the parent wont love him as much.

in a way, you can say that a person learns and grows when fear is mingled with love.

which brings me back to the question. i dont really see there being as much benefit (or much at all) to forgiving when youre powerless against the transgressor.

but w/out getting too presumptous regarding a victim of a violent crime or sexual abuse, i would say that a person can look at some degree of forgiveness for selfish reasons.

it might be possible to understand the motives and/or conditions that drove a person to commit those transgressive acts, and in that way, "hate" the person (& yourself for getting into that situation) less.

my 2 cents.

robeiae · Sep 24, 2006

I think there are, indeed, two types or meanings of forgiveness:

1) Forgiveness as a response to contrition--"I'm sorry if I hurt you" can elicit an "I forgive you." In this context, forgiving is accepting the contrition or apology of another. When it is done sincerely, it means no longer holding on to feelings of offense, anger, etc. for the person whose act brought on those feelings.

2) Forgiveness as a cathartic act (as Steve noted)--"I forgive person x for the wrong they have done me" is wholly a personal matter. In fact, it is even an internal one. It does not require anything from another. Is it effective? I don't really know. I suppose it can be, but it would seem to depend on too many factors to reach any general conclusion.

I think both types can be done with sincerity, but both can also be done with duplicity. Also, there is a social expectation associated with the first: sincere apologies should be accepted. Ofcourse, the sincerity of another is a matter of opinion; no one can prove they are being sincere.

Regardless of which type is being used, an act of forgiveness never absolves someone else of responsibility for an act, at least imo.

Is "Forgiveness" Trendy?

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