Too large?

Atlantis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
1,146
Reaction score
103
Hello. My name is Marisa. I am a first time novelist who has almost completed my first book, a fantasy novel about the Greek gods called Atlantis Reborn. The book is about the Greek god Poseidon who discovers a mortal woman is his soul mate. Long story short: they have a son, his soul mate dies but before she does she uses the last of her strength to send their newborn child three thousand years into an unknown future to escape Zeus who has vowed to kill the infant. The child is discovered on the shore of Western Australia and raised to believe he is human. The book is quite large, almost 800 hundred pages, it will most likely be over a thousand when it is finally complete. The book is able to exist as a stand alone novel. If it is successful, I have plans to turn the book into the first installment of a long series of novels called the Chronicles of the Gods which would tell the story of how each of the Greek Gods find their soul mates. As a first time novelist, I know how difficult it is to get published, I have complete faith in Atlantis Reborn. I know it is a good book and would most likely do well if ever published, what bothers me is the page length. It is too long. Since the book is written in sections, it has the option of being split into two, possibly three books, turning it into its own little mini-series, which would mess up my plans for the Chronicles of the Gods. So my question is this: should I leave the book as it is? a very large novel that could either exist as a stand alone book or the first in a long series? or should I cut it in half? I really don't know which is more marketable.
 

Popeyesays

Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us
Requiescat In Pace
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Messages
1,461
Reaction score
163
How long is 'long'? What's the word count? Is it typed at 250 words to the page? if it is that's 100,000 words which should be on target for a novel. Another 200 pages would be at the top of the range.

80,000 to 125,000 is a good word count.

When it's done, the first thing you should probably do is cut it anyway. Most first drafts are too long for what is there.

Regards,
Scptt
 

brendao

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 19, 2006
Messages
120
Reaction score
12
Location
Michigan
Popeyesays,

Math is not my strong suit, but...

800 pages x 250 words per page = 200,000 words. And she's not done yet.

I've always heard that first-time novelists need to keep their word count in a more standard range (as Popeyesays quoted) to help their chances of getting published. The reasoning is that publishers won't make a big upfront investment in an unknown writer who might not deliver buyers.

Of course, there are always exceptions to the rules. I also hear that writing trumps all.

I'll leave this question to others more knowledgeable. Just wanted to correct the math. ;)
 

Popeyesays

Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us
Requiescat In Pace
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Messages
1,461
Reaction score
163
Oops!

Yeah! that's way too long in all likelihood.

Even Robert K. Jordan seems hard-pressed to keep a series that long under control, and he had practice before he endeavored to undertake such a series (Jordan is a pen-name apparently).

I would expect that a 200,000 word first novel could stand to simmer for awhile as one skims the fat off.

I'd finish the danged thing and then take a chainsaw to the manuscript resolved to red-line every other word overall. Yup! Fifty percent should be pruned til it's down to 120,000 words tops

That takes discipline, but that's better than spending a year or two trying to market a book that no one will buy because of its wordcount.

My first sweep would be to find out what scenes can be dropped whole. Then I'd go after adverbs and kill every one of the little buggers. Then it's time to switch to a scalpel and carve out the adjectives.

Regards,
Scott
 

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
19,988
Reaction score
23,508
Location
Aotearoa
Atlantis said: "So my question is this: should I leave the book as it is?"

Very few authors can write a publishable first draft; most need to revise heavily. Very few authors can write a publishable first novel; most ought to be trunked and never shown the light of day again. Few fantasy novels, and very very few first fantasy novels, need to be 200K; most are greatly improved if they get chopped by about 50%, as Scott suggests.

It's possible you are the exception to all those. It's also possible you're not. I can't judge, not having seen your book.

To be honest, I'd suggest that you finish writing the novel. Then set it aside for at least a week. Then read it. Then revise it to the best of your ability. Then workshop it -- here on Share Your Work, or at Critters, or wherever. Then revise it again. Then think about submitting it to publishers.
 

Atlantis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
1,146
Reaction score
103
Part of the reason the book is so long is because there isn't really a main character. The first section, part one: a mortal weakness is set in ancient greece and tells the story of Poseidon and Cleito's doomed relationship; part two: cleito's legacy, is about the mortal family that decides to adopt their son three thousand years later; part three is about Poseidon's son as a teenager; part four deals with him struggling to accept that he is a greek god; part five is him attempting to run away from Poseidon and Zeus; part six deals with him being held captive by Zeus and lastly part seven is when everything is wrapped up. Instead of a main character, I have a main 'group' of characters paired off into groups ie: soul mates, mother and son, father and daughter, etc, all of them with their own plot lines that interconnect. It sounds confusing, but its not. I have faith in my writing. I think I've written the plot lines well enough that they're not confusing, which is saying something, considering I write the book out of order (I've finished the beginning and the ending, I'm now putting the finishing touches on the middle) The idea of going through it with a chain saw and hacking it down several thousand words frightens me. I have no idea how to do it. All of the plot lines interconnect. The book is in a sense, all about love, and the different forms it takes and how it can affect people. I might be able to chop out a few scenes, but as for removing entire plot lines, I can't see myself doing that without rewriting the whole thing which is something I do not want to do. I have been writing this book for three years. I am on the second daft. I will go through and do an edit but I will NOT rewrite it. I did not intend for it to be this large. I had a feeling it would be a while ago, back when it was five hundred pages or so, I hoped it would end in the 700 hundred range but it didn't. I know the realities of publishing. I know a book with a huge word count will be impossible to publish for a newcomer. Hell, the postage alone would kill me. I'll see how it goes.
 
Last edited:

Andrew Jameson

(not his real name)
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
1,701
Reaction score
623
Location
Detroit
When you say 800 pages, what exactly is the word count?

The idea of going through it with a chain saw and hacking it down several thousand words frightens me. I have no idea how to do it.
Uncle Jim touches on this in his thread in the Novels section; you may want to ask there. In any case, the point is *not* to go through it with a chain saw. The point is to go through it with sculptor's tools, removing a bit here, a bit there, a piece on the back side, and so forth, until you have an enormous pile of shavings on the floor and a fine sculpture in front of you.

The secret to editing is to make every *word*, every *phrase*, every sentence, every paragraph, every scene, every chapter justify their existence. Everything should support your core story and reflect what you want the reader to know, using the minimum number of words.
 

Atlantis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
1,146
Reaction score
103
the exact word count is 200,381 words. Editing is an art. I've been writing novels since I was 12 years old. My skills as a writer has taken a long time to evolve. My first novel, The Secret World, took me seven years and seven rewrites before I abandoned it. I have never actually done a real edit before, I've always given in to low confidence and rewritten. Not anymore. I want to learn how to edit with a 'sculptor's hands' like you said and hopefully get the word count down to a reasonable level without hacking the plotlines to death.
 

DeadlyAccurate

Absolutely Fazed
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
2,536
Reaction score
522
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
Website
www.carlaharker.com
Now I'm curious how many words your book is in manuscript format.

1" margins
Courier New font
Double-spaced

Multiply the number of pages by 250. The reason for my curiosity is that the word processor count is usually lower than that number. For example, my book clocks in at 74,911 in MS Word, but 91,000 words using the above format. Manuscript format is what many publishers and some agents still care about.

Either way, you're probably going to have to lose quite a bit due to the size. Without reading your work, no one could know, though. You might post a bit in the Share Your Work forum and see what people think.

(And if you don't mind, would you put a paragraph break or two in your longer posts? Those big chunks of text are hard to follow.)
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
No main character worries me more than the length. Fantasy takes longer books from first time writers than most other genres, and if the book is good, you can trim it. Never say you can't cut a novel. Any novel can be cut. In all truth, with fantasy, if you can get it down to 150,000-160,000 words, you have a chance. And if it's a wonderful read, you have a chance at any length. It's just that the longer a novel is, the better it has to be before a publisher will take a chance on it.

But no main character is often a big, big problem in first novels. I'm not saying you can't write a publishable novel that has no main character, but it sure as heck isn't easy. The main chararacter is something agents, editors, and readers, all look for. When they don't find one, you're facing a serious uphill battle.
 

JanDarby

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 26, 2006
Messages
3,553
Reaction score
1,121
Going with what JAR said about the lack of a main character (story = a character in conflict with another character), and coupling that with the recommendation that you finish the first draft before worrying about the marketing of the finished product, it's possible that after you're done, you'll find that the different pairs you mentioned each forms its own story, and the pages could be divided up that way: one story for the soulmates, one for the the mother/daughter, etc. It might be difficult to do (editing 800 to 1,000 pages is going to be hard, no matter how you do it), but it might be worth the effort, b/c, really, you're going to want a protagonist (just one, or depending on how it's structured, a pair -- just one -- could possibly be considered a joint protagonist, working against a common antagonist) and an antagonist (just one) that move the story to its conclusion, which happens when the struggle between them is resolved.

JD
 

Popeyesays

Now departed. Rest in peace, Scott, from all of us
Requiescat In Pace
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Messages
1,461
Reaction score
163
You have an Epic Fantasy on your hands. Told through generations, it might be necessary to think of them as linked novellas and break the project into volumes containing the most closely related parts.

A 200,000 word book creates binding problems if nothing else. The soft cover books are going to fall apart from being too thick if nothing else. This would also raise the per unit cost drastically and the publisher is going to be very picky about projects that have a high unit cost. To them it's a business not a work of art.

If you top off at 240,000 words which it seems likely you will, you do not have a book, but a series of books from many considerations. Perhaps you should treat it that way and avoid the pitfalls.

I used the chainsaw metaphor to indicate that you have an awesomely difficult edit ahead if you do not treat it as a series. Someone said you should finish the draft before you worry about marketability, but if marketing the book is the objective then I do not see how you cannot consider that hurdle from the outset. It is the most difficult hurdle face.

Regards,

Scott
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,652
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
Like Uncle Jim said, the norm is about 80K-120K. If you go off the sides (40K? 250K?), the book has to be really brilliant. Nothing is impossible, but you're setting yourself with a huge challenge at over 200K.

And yes, the lack of main character... it would be a very difficult sell. Are you writing a story, or are you writing a natural history of the Gods?
 
Last edited:

Atlantis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
1,146
Reaction score
103
DeadlyAccurate said:
Now I'm curious how many words your book is in manuscript format.

The word count I posted was in manuscript format. As for the main character, the reason there isn't really a main one is because in a sense the book is generational. It starts with Poseidon and Cleito's story, their doomed relationship, her death and how Poseidon copes with the disappearance of his son. The second half of the book is about his son and how he copes discovering the truth about his past. In a sense, Poseidon and Dylan are both the main characters, this must sound really confusing huh?

Someone asked if I was writing the natural history of the Gods. Yes and No. Atlantis Reborn is a modern spin on the myths. I have plans for the Chronicals of the Gods, which would span several books as each of the main Olympians find their soul mates, a book of short stories about the Gods called the Book of the Gods and a seperate seven book fantasy series set in the same "universe" but with different characters called The Seven Virtues. Atlantis Reborn is the door that will open into each of these future projects. Alot of the sub-plots exist primarily for the reason that I am in fact setting up background characters for their own future books in the Chronicals of the Gods, the Seven Virtues, etc...

I never intended for Atlantis to be this big, but now that it is, I'll try and cut it down as much as possible, but if at the end of the year it is still too big I will just have to cut it in half. I had a feeling I would. Your right about the binding problems Pope. Its a shame. I really do feel the book is stonger as a single novel. Hopefully it'd be able to stay that way if I can cut it down enough.
 

DeadlyAccurate

Absolutely Fazed
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
2,536
Reaction score
522
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
Website
www.carlaharker.com
The second half of the book is about his son and how he copes discovering the truth about his past. In a sense, Poseidon and Dylan are both the main characters, this must sound really confusing huh?

That seems like a perfect point to split, assuming the Poseidon story can stand on its own.

FTR, the idea behind your series sounds interesting.
 

Atlantis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
1,146
Reaction score
103
Hey Imelda. Yeah, I took your advice, this is a great place, it reminds me alot of the old Inkspot or Writersbbs fourms. The problem with turning part one into a seperate book is its too small on is own, only 41,993 thousand words. I'll figure something out.
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
Popeyesays said:
You have an Epic Fantasy on your hands. Told through generations, it might be necessary to think of them as linked novellas and break the project into volumes containing the most closely related parts.

A 200,000 word book creates binding problems if nothing else. The soft cover books are going to fall apart from being too thick if nothing else. This would also raise the per unit cost drastically and the publisher is going to be very picky about projects that have a high unit cost. To them it's a business not a work of art.

If you top off at 240,000 words which it seems likely you will, you do not have a book, but a series of books from many considerations. Perhaps you should treat it that way and avoid the pitfalls.

I used the chainsaw metaphor to indicate that you have an awesomely difficult edit ahead if you do not treat it as a series. Someone said you should finish the draft before you worry about marketability, but if marketing the book is the objective then I do not see how you cannot consider that hurdle from the outset. It is the most difficult hurdle face.

Regards,

Scott

200,000 words books aren't difficult to bind. Nor is a 200,000 word paperback all that thick. There are many, many paperbacks out there longer than this that have no binding problems. Certainly thousands of them. At 581,317 words, "And Ladies of the Club" is the longest paperback I have. "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" coems in second at 553,694 words.

Most of the Sptehen King novels I have are well over 200,000 words, and the binding stands up just fine. The reissued complete version of "The Stand" is 462,138 words, and it's in paperback. My orginal paperback of The Stand is twenty-eight years old, and the binding is still holding after God knows how many reads.

I have at least fifty paperbacks well above 200,000 words, and a respectable number above 300,000, a few above 400,000, and two above 500,000 words.

200,000 words is just not a very long novel, and no problem at all fod binders. It's considered mid-length in binding, and the cover can easily be cut from standard stock.

It's the per unit price you mention that's the problem. Doubling the length comes nowhere near to doubling the per unit price, but it does raise it some, and since publishers make no profit on three out of four first novels, they do want to keep the per unit price as low as possible.

But 200,000 words is not a terribly long novel in fantasy, and it's a mistake to think a publisher who won't risk money on a 200,000 word single book is going to risk money on a double or triple set of books.

Break a book into two or three parts is almost a kneejerk reaction, but unless the first book works as a stand alone novel, or unless the book is really long enough to justify a double or triple deal, and 200,000 words probably isn't from a first time writer, breaking the book up makes it harder to sell, not easier. If 300,000 words or above, it can be broken, if the first works as a stand alone, or if the publisher falls in love with it, but I'd never try to break a 200,000 fantasy, if I really wanted to sell it.

Just because pubishers take extra precautions when a first time writer aims a 200,000 word book at them in no way means that publisher is going to want the book one bit more if it's broken. They may well want it less. If it is broken, part one had darned well be a stand-alone novel, or the publisher is risking even more by taking it on.

Cut as much as can reasonably be cut, yes, but breaking a book of the wrong sort can kill it. It makes the expense and risk even greater for a publisher.

a 200,000 word novel is certainly a much tougher sell than a 120,000 word novel, but it's far, far from any sort of record, even from a first time novelist.
 

Atlantis

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
1,146
Reaction score
103
Wow, Jamesaritchie, good post. I didn't think I'd set a record, hell no, there was a person on ForwardMotion.com who was writing a 300,000 page novel and she was only half way finished. To be honest, I was shocked and very pleased that there were other books out there that actually made mine look small. I do think the book is stronger as a single novel. You're right. The option of splitting it is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction made out of fear. I want to get published so badly, to be a succcesful author so badly, other then selling my soul there isn't really much I wouldn't do to gain approval in a publisher's eye. Writing Atlantis Reborn has been such a colossal task, the idea of someone writing a 500,000 page book like you mentioned is mind boggling. It makes me feel better though. For the longest time, Atlantis felt like an out of control train, it just kept going faster with no end in sight. If splitting the book will harm it I'll rather keep it together and take my chances.
 

kristie911

Happy to be here
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,449
Reaction score
2,460
Location
my own little world
James made some very good points but remember, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't revise and pare down your work some. Most first drafts need a lot of work and that usually means they have a lot of extra words they don't need.

I agree that 200,000 words isn't unheard of but don't use it as an excuse to not cut some extra stuff and tighten your work up.

Good luck!
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,652
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
The reason why a 200K novel is a harder sell (especially for a first novel) is that paper costs money, so it will cost the publisher more to publish the book. Also, it will require a bigger commitment from the readers, and some of them may balk at picking up a 500-page paperback from an unknown author.
 

Maprilynne

Author Waiting in the Wings
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
1,026
Reaction score
340
Location
Cover-Delight-Ville
Website
www.powerfulbirth.com
Too Large? Much.

And if you really think that nothing can be trimmed (and I'm talking significant chunks) then you need to finish writting and then put it away for a couple of months and take it out again and look it over with a LOT less emotion. Everything can be slashed; especially after first draft. It's really hard (I'm doing it now, I understand) but the results are so, so, so, so worth it!

Good Luck.:)

Maprilynne

P.S. Ray? What's up with your new Picture?????
 

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
6,704
Reaction score
1,315
Location
Far from the madding crowd
Website
www.victoriastrauss.com
Jamesaritchie said:
But 200,000 words is not a terribly long novel in fantasy
Perhaps not for an established writer (although publishers are more and more likely to make even established authors shorten books with a big word count, or split them in half). For a first-timer, a book that big is a very tough sell.

It can happen. I know first-timers who've done it. But in each case, the publisher felt the book would be a hot seller and planned to put special promotional push behind it. That's not going to be the case for the average first fantasy. You're far more likely to run into agents and editors who will reject based on length alone, or who will only take you on if you agree to turn your big fat book into two shorter ones.

- Victoria