F-word in YA

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Fillanzea

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It's not unheard of completely--I know that it shows up in David Levithan and Rachel Cohn's "Nick & Norah's Infinite Playlist," and also John Green's "Looking for Alaska."
 

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You may well limit your markets.

The usual genius-exception applies. Just be prepared for bunches of schools and libraries to pass on acquiring your book. Which may well influence a publisher's decision to acquire your book.

This is an area to discuss with your editor. Is the word so completely necessary to your story that no other will do?
 

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In my edgy YA novel - some of the characters use it because thats the way college age kids talk.

They say things like "I'm just f*ing with you." (that's one of the character's catchphrases) and stuff like that.

I think if I took out the language, it wouldn't be realistic to me. Still, i don't hit the reader over the head with it. Only when absolutely necessary.
 

moondance

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I have used it twice in my YA novel, which will be published next year. The editor did not ever suggest I remove it. It's used sparingly but for effect.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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cuteshoes said:
In my edgy YA novel - some of the characters use it because thats the way college age kids talk.

They say things like "I'm just f*ing with you." (that's one of the character's catchphrases) and stuff like that.

I think if I took out the language, it wouldn't be realistic to me. Still, i don't hit the reader over the head with it. Only when absolutely necessary.

Why? I've heard "I'm just messing with you." Why wouldn't that work just as well?
 

cuteshoes

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yeah I actually went through and already changed it to 'messing' with you after thinking about this thread. it works just fine. its not true to life based on my experiences in college. but whatever.

i doubt thats what would keep me from the libraries of schools. my book deals with alcohol abuse and tough subjects like that. if anything, those would keep schools from stocking the book if it sells.
 

Isabeaulia

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I used it a few times in my novel and it wasn't a problem for my editor.
 

Aubrey

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I'm so glad there's a thread about this. I'm in the same situation. Two of my characters had rough backgrounds and I think if I worked around them cursing I'd look like I was working around them cursing. They don't talk like Eminem by a longshot, but they do use bad curse words now and then. I hope it won't be too much of a problem. It's very much a YA novel otherwise and I can't see any adult market finding it of interest.
 

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May I pose another point of view on this issue?

How about we look at this issue from a moral view point? Aren't most of us here adults, writing for teens and children? Shouldn't we then be held to a higher standard than the kids we're writing to?

I know kids hear this kind of language all the time. It's nothing new to them. My own kids come home from school and have to wash their ears out every day. Still, should we condone that kind of language by emulating it? By including it in our writing, I think we are in effect endorsing it as acceptable.

I think we, as adults, need to set the better example. There are ways around using vulgarity and the infamous "F-word."

In my own novel, I've written about some pretty tough characters who use vulgarity in nearly every sentence, yet you never see the actual words. They are alluded to, but not written, and I do not think it hurts the flow or flavor of my novel. Simply saying, "so-and-so swore," then adding the rest of what he says, gives the readers the understanding that the kid in the story said a bad word or two. The reader can supply the words in his/her own mind without having to read the offending word.

I know of many writers who have used this technique quite successfully. Writers like Orson Scott Card, Dean Hughes, and others. I know, for me, I hate having to weed out those offending words as I read a novel, especially if the novel is written primarily for my own children to read.
 

moondance

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Interesting point of view, Valona. I do see where you're coming from, but equally, the thought of 'weeding out' words so that I am in effect 'censoring' books for my children, would never occur to me. But then I don't think any of us use the word gratuitously. An f-word placed judiciously in a scene of tension can add great shock value that you couldn't get from 'someone swore'.

Teenagers are after all only young adults - and I feel they should be free to have the choice of reading swear words or not, as they prefer - which is what adults do. Censoring books at source is not something I would be happy with.
 

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I don't include swearing in my books. I find ways around it. I won't allow my kids to read them and I won't offer them for other people's kids to read. Then again, I don't write for the upper end of the YA market and I concede that there is a difference.
 

Valona

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moondance said:
Interesting point of view, Valona. I do see where you're coming from, but equally, the thought of 'weeding out' words so that I am in effect 'censoring' books for my children, would never occur to me. But then I don't think any of us use the word gratuitously. An f-word placed judiciously in a scene of tension can add great shock value that you couldn't get from 'someone swore'.

Teenagers are after all only young adults - and I feel they should be free to have the choice of reading swear words or not, as they prefer - which is what adults do. Censoring books at source is not something I would be happy with.

I don't read my kids books to censor them, but at the same time I don't think we adults should write things we wouldn't be proud of having our children read either. That was the main point of my argument. We are adults. We should be the examples of a better, moral way of living, not sink to the level of degenerates.

As for using fowl language for shock value, I feel that's a cheap and lazy way of achieving shock. To truly achieve shock, it should come through the actions and "real" dialog, not cheap tricks.
 
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Alex Bravo

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I agree with Valona. Anyone can write the F-word for shock. We are artists, and supposed to be creative. The real creativity is shocking the reader without the word.
 

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Well, I think in some cases it can be ommitted and it's fine. But in others, like with tough, older teens or very dark settings, I'm afraid it might come off unrealistic, or, like I said earlier, coming off looking like you're trying to avoid using it.

If it isn't a character who swears much and he doesn't argue with people who do much, I think a simple "he swore" could work. But if he tends to use curse words a little more often it's pretty hard to get around without LOTS of work. I really admire anyone who could pull this off. I'm not sure I could get away with this with rougher characters.
 

AncientEagle

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Valona said:
As for using fowl language for shock value, I feel that's a cheap and lazy way of achieving shock.

I think anyone using fowl language must be chicken.
 

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My thoughts are: be true to the characters. What I write isn't about my own values, it's about theirs. If any hang-ups I have as a person infiltrate the character, I have ceased to write their story, I have begun subtly inserting my own agenda.
Often, that ends up not ringing true.
It's really about the characters and their vision of things, not what "cree wishes the world to be" -- foul language free, is not realistic.
But I guess I'm not someone who thinks the world should come to a screeching halt when a 17-year-old reads the word fvck in a book, so I'll stop there. :)
 

Grey Malkin

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I think too much profanity can ruin any good book, even for adult audiences. It's true that many people swear when they talk, whether they're women in a factory, gansters in a warehouse or adolescents on a street corner, but they also "hum" and "err" and fluff words, talk over each other, forget what they were saying, repeat themselves and mumble.

Dialogue is different to speech.

Dialogue is not a facsimile of actual speech, otherwise is would be a pain to wade through. Using swear words simply because you think it gives it a touch of realism is a mistake, because to give the characters justice you would have to splatter the page with obscenity and soon the words loose their power. In general speech, profanity is mainly used as a sort of wild card adjective, and almost always means "very". If you strip it out you lose nothing, and emotions, even anger, can be conveyed in so many better ways than having a character swear.

But, there is a place for it, especially if you have a character swearing in an unusual place, say in church, or accidentally at a family dinner. It can be used as a comic tool, rebellion, immaturity and a load more, but if you over use it, the power is gone.

Example - who really notices that Eminem "cusses" in his songs - yeah they work, but it doesn't raise any eyebrows. Whereas is George Bush said something in a speech to the nation, "These f*ckers have gone too damn far" - we'd be talking about it for years.

I've allowed myself a few minor swear words and one "F*ck" in my YA novel and so far the agent hasn't mentioned it, but to put it in context, the novel is incredibly violent, involving cage-fighting and gansters where you'd expect a mass-swear-a-thon, but what's the point?

Grey
 

KTC

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I'm keeping my f-shots in my manuscript. I've had it critiqued by 7 people in a group and there have been lively debates about it. 5 of the critiquers say that each one I placed must stay in the conversation to give the conversation the base in reality it needs. My question to the group was: Is it still a YA if it carries the f-bomb? Even that wasn't agreed upon. In the end, I went with the majority. They all agreed that if I send it to a publisher who doesn't agree with the F-shot usage, they will merely remove it. The manuscript will not be rejected based on a few bombs.

PS...It's not littered with f-bombs. There is just some very intense dialogue in a few places where I felt it was needed.
 

Grey Malkin

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We are seeing it more and more, and I think that's a good thing. Swearing is part of everyday english and isn't something to be completely ignored. If you feel it's important then definitely, definitely keep it. My gripe is with writers (particular in the adult genres) who use it repeatedly - that's just lazy writing.

Another point worth considering is whether our moral responsibility as adults writing for teens is greater than the teens' need to read something they can relate to. After all, that's why the market is there.

Grey
 

popmuze

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I feel this is a slippery slope, like songwriting before rap came along. Whoever thought it would be appropriate to use vulgarity in song lyrics? Imagine Cole Porter or Irving Berlin putting cuss words into romantic ballads. I don't believe Dylan has ever done it either.
As others have said, to be true to profanity the way it's used in actual life, you'd have it in every other sentence.
There's got to be creative ways around it. Or you could always resort to the good old #@!*!$ of comic book yore.
 

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I work as a prison chaplain, so I spend most of my days with those who might normally be thought of as the worst swearers on (off) the streets.

What I find at work is very interesting. Staff will swear often and loudly, the women more than men. The foulest mouth in my workplace is a woman in second-to-top level management.

Inmates, on the other hand, if they swear in my presence, will apologise for it. And if the man himself doesn't apologise another will prompt him to apologise for swearing in front of me. I let them apologise, but I really don't need it.

I take this as something worth considering in my writing. I very rarely have characters swearing, although one of my published short stories starts with a long succession of F-words, and features the word through the story. The guy "teaching" himself to swear is his coping mechanism for another profanity the pathologist says is growing inside him.

My current YA novel has great opportunity for swearing - a bunch of middle years teens in a school for difficult boys - but nobody swears anywhere in the whole book. I lived in a boy's home for kids in strife with the law when I was 15/16, back then we even went looking for swear words in the dictionary.

My own preference in writing is for something different.
 
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