Son of a -

Son Of a...

I would guess "Son of a dog" would be a believable pejorative. The Chinese would certainly have had dogs in 5 BC, and I can't imagine they held them in high enough regard that the above would not come off as an insult.

Other possibilities, just off the top of my head:
rat
snake
pig
worm

Or even adding the human element:
Son of a whore (assuming prostitutes were held in low regard in China at that time--I don't know, so you'll need to check)
Son of a [member of a rival state or tribe]
Son of a slave

I'm no expert, so check your sources. Just throwing things out there to grease the gears.

Hope this is helpful.
HN

Son of a Turtle! or Rabbit! You Rolling Egg!

Standard Chinese "son of!" curses -- throughout the centuries -- have referenced either turtles or rabbits.

Experts disagree as to the origins of the turtle curse -- some say that the turtle, sticking its head out of its shell, looks an awfully lot like a penis (head). Others say that the turtle, having hatched from an egg, does not know who its parents are -- hence, all turtles are bastards (and necessarily unfilial bastards at that!).

No one actually says "son of a turtle!" in so many words: the expression is "turtle's egg" ("wang ba dan!"). I'm not exactly sure when this became a common curse, but it is a classic. Now, if your opponent adds "rolling" to get "rolling turtle's egg!" ... and you've been dissed in a major way.

The origins of the son-of-rabbit curse ("tu zai zi!"), as far as most people are concerned, seems pretty straight forward: rabbits are promiscuous (bad) and a rabbit cannot never be sure what male sired it (bastard, again, bad).

I have never heard of a traditional Chinese curse dealing with a jackal -- although there is a mythical, jackal-like creature called a "bei" which is not held in very high regard. Using either a turtle or rabbit curse would be much more authentic.

I'd go with smallthunder's suggestion - my first thought was "You turtle egg!"
I'm sure you know that both insults and cursing vary considerably between cultures. I was beta-reading a friend's manuscript, set in 1940s Germany, and she had a madwoman shouting "F-- Hitler, F-- Goebbels!" before being taken away, and a sane character referring to her as a b*tch. It sounded wrong to me, so I hit my dictionaries and suggested that Germans of the time would be more likely to say "Scheiss auf so-and-so" than "F-- so-and-so" and that "Hexe" was a more likely term than "Hundin", even though it sounds almost namby-pamby in comparison.
Sorry! digression. Um, yeah, 'turtle egg!' or son of a rabbit.
-Barbara

Turtle?

I'm fascinated by this turtle expression being rude.

In Japan there are many beautiful traditional gardens, either Zen style with rocks and gravel or temple styles with a few shaped trees and bushes, green mounds and rocks.
Always one rock represents a turtle rock, revered for wisdom and longevity. I was told several times that this tradition is direct from the Chinese where the making of these gardens originated. Mind you this is over 1000 years ago.

Do you know if the turtle rock is a sea turtle and the rude expression refers to the little lake turtles?

Rude turtles

pdr said:

I'm fascinated by this turtle expression being rude.

In Japan there are many beautiful traditional gardens, either Zen style with rocks and gravel or temple styles with a few shaped trees and bushes, green mounds and rocks.
Always one rock represents a turtle rock, revered for wisdom and longevity. I was told several times that this tradition is direct from the Chinese where the making of these gardens originated. Mind you this is over 1000 years ago.

Do you know if the turtle rock is a sea turtle and the rude expression refers to the little lake turtles?

Click to expand...

Yes, in traditional Chinese culture, there's a bit of a contradiction surrounding turtle symbolism.

Although I haven't seen this distinction consistently made linguistically, my impression is that TORTOISES (i.e. "large turtles") are symbols of longevity, but TURTLES (i.e. "small turtles") are what is referenced in curses.

Perhaps the dual nature of turtles is actually a reflection of how one thing can be seen differently when viewed from the vantage of "high culture" versus "low culture"?

That would explain why large stone turtles (tortoise-size and larger) were traditionally commissioned by the elites carrying stone steles lauding the achievements of great/noble families ... while the common folk would use a curse reflecting the "penis-head" of a small turtle.

Am I making any sense here?

Argh!

Am I making any sense here?

Sorry, Smallthunder, but I'm confused with your definitions of turtle.

Definitions:
If the reptile lives on the land it is a tortoise.
If it lives totally or mainly in the water it's a turtle.

To the Japanese, and I am told the ancient Chinese, the large sea turtle represents wisdom.

Do the Chinese have an indigenous tortoise? The only large tortoise is the Galapagos one isn't it?

Ah me! This is confusing!

I've read an explanation somewhere about turtles generating spontaneously - a turtle has no father. It wouldn't mean that female turtles were unfaithful to their mates or reflect on their morality (okay, I write fantasy, I can handle the idea of immoral turtles). It just means - You have no father!
If I get time I'll see if I can check into that today.
-Barbara

Ah!

That might make sense.