When to believe your work sucks

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Reluctant Artist

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I started in the A's of the "Novel & Short Story Writer's Market" book and wrote queries to the first 27 agents who were looking for my type of book. In the end I had one wanting the full ms. and one wanting 50 pages. The 50 pages agent then passed. The Full ms. offered me a contract (which I don't want - not a good agency).
So, based on my sample, I'm wondering if I should even try to glean information from these rejections. 17 rejected me at the query letter (having read none of the book), 5 got to read an outline and chapters, then rejected me, 2 got to read a few pages, then rejected me, and 2 read 50 pages before rejecting me.
So in my estimation I have 7 representive rejections. (assuming the pages were even READ - how can one even know?)
Can I determine from these rejections that my work sucks? How many rejections does it take before I hang it up?
 

Sonarbabe

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Miss Snark (a literary agent who blogs anonymously) often says a writer shouldn't consider shelving a piece until you've queried at least 100 agents. You've got a loooong way to go, my friend. :) Keep at it, you'll get there.
 

Silver King

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The entire process sucks, Reluctant. But only the process; and you're never a part of that save mailing your work and receiving responses. The writing stands apart, and should be merely a catalyst for mail going back and forth.

There is no magic number to determine how many rejections constitute suckage. Some very famous authors were rejected countless times before being accepted. Other writers were taken on during their first time out. Neither scenario is as unusual as you might think.

Just keep going through the alphabet on your list and stop pissing and moaning and start kicking some a$$.
 

Dario D.

What I'd like to do is have an editor look at my book and tell me what he/she thinks, to give me a REAL idea what to expect. That would probably tell you more than 100 agency submissions... because those just don't tell you anything, you know? If it takes that many submissions to finally catch a fish, then you just can't look to it for answers as to how good your book really is. If you want answers, you have to ask questions :) Try asking an agent.
 
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Silver King

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Dario, you'll have to fly pretty high in order to catch that pie in the sky. Unless you're very, very fortunate, it just won't happen. Editors and agents are busy. In most cases, they simply don't have time to express personal responses. It's the nature of the beast, the one which writers agree to lie with from the start.

As personal as your work is to YOU, is as impersonal it is to THEM. You've entered into a business venture by offering your goods for sale; unless your writing meets certain standards and markets, you'll be denied. It's as simple as that. It has nothing to do with "art" or "the glory of the written word."

No one should expect anything other than three words from a publisher or agent: "Not for us." I've heard them enough times, and I appreciate the import of those words without expecting anything else in return.
 

Popeyesays

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Silver King said:
No one should expect anything other than three words from a publisher or agent: "Not for us." I've heard them enough times, and I appreciate the import of those words without expecting anything else in return.

True enough it makes the words: "Your story was very interesting but we just published another novel that deals with the same subject" sound very good.

And of course, you will never read the words, "We have decided to accept your submission." Unless you submit, and continue submitting even when the pile of "No, thank you's" seems overwhelming.

Regards,
Scott
 

Jamesaritchie

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Sucks

Never submit a query without including at least the first two pages of the manuscript. If an agent is going to reject your work, then make certain she's rejecting your actual writing, and not just your query letter.

Maybe your work does suck. Most writing making the rounds does. But the only way to know is to keep sending it out until there isn't a single place left to send it.

And even more important, how far along is your second novel? By the time a first novel has made the rounds, a second novel should be starting them.
 

Pisarz

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Quote by Jamesaritchie
And even more important, how far along is your second novel? By the time a first novel has made the rounds, a second novel should be starting them.

As a newbie trying to get an agent for a first novel, I've been wondering about this advice. I've read it elsewhere, too. If we (newbie, unpubbed-types) don't know what's "wrong" with the first novel, what incentive do we have to write another? Sure, I know it's always smart to hone the craft, but at what point is it a therapeutic exercise ("writing makes me feel good, even if no one sees it") and at what point is it a means to becoming publishable?

For me, it's a confidence problem. Oh, I have ideas for a second novel and I enjoy the art of writing, of course. Yet I can't bring myself to go through with work #2, and all that novel-writing and agent-hunting entails, if #1 doesn't catch anyone's interest. For what? To find out that my writing is just as unpublishable after the second novel as it was after the first? What if I write five novels and none of them get published--what benefit have I dervied besides the realization that I'm not cut out to be a writer? From a practical, my-aim-is-to-be-published standpoint, I worry that it may just be a waste of time.

I'm not trying to be contentious; I'm just trying to understand why more experienced writers advise newbies to move on to #2. I, for one, have lost the confidence to do so. Could you guys please elaborate?
 

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Pisarz said:
... but at what point is it a therapeutic exercise ("writing makes me feel good, even if no one sees it") and at what point is it a means to becoming publishable?

I'm not trying to be contentious; I'm just trying to understand why more experienced writers advise newbies to move on to #2. I, for one, have lost the confidence to do so. Could you guys please elaborate?

'K, I'm far from being a pro, but i'll give this a shot. you will *never* improve without workign at your craft, and sitting around waiting for someone else to validate your work isn't going to improve it either.

Many debut novels are not the authors' first written work, I'm pretty certain. Like anything in life, in order to get anything out (published novel) you have to put in (millions of cr@ppy words, until the good stuff comes naturally).

Just my 2 cents
 

Tsu Dho Nimh

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Because practice counts?

Pisarz said:
Quote by Jamesaritchie
And even more important, how far along is your second novel? By the time a first novel has made the rounds, a second novel should be starting them.

As a newbie trying to get an agent for a first novel, I've been wondering about this advice. I've read it elsewhere, too. If we (newbie, unpubbed-types) don't know what's "wrong" with the first novel, what incentive do we have to write another?
Because practice counts. Because you were learning HOW to write on the first one, too engrossed in the mechanics of the tools to make it your best. Because you will learn more about how to write with the second novel than you did with the first. Because there is a limited amount to learn from a single project.

You go from making a wobbly birdhouse to a sturdy bookcase to a beautiful cabinet. You want to stop because nobody needs a wobbly birdhouse, when you should be learning how to make seamless rabbets and sturdy shelves.

Sure, I know it's always smart to hone the craft, but at what point is it a therapeutic exercise ("writing makes me feel good, even if no one sees it") and at what point is it a means to becoming publishable?
If you are serious about wanting to "hone the craft", you would not be questioning this advice. The only way to improve is to do it

I can't bring myself to go through with work #2, and all that novel-writing and agent-hunting entails, if #1 doesn't catch anyone's interest.
Then don't. Stop with one, which is almost certainly not your best.

From a practical, my-aim-is-to-be-published standpoint, I worry that it may just be a waste of time.
There's LuLu.com if all you want is to see your name on a book.
 

Rolling Thunder

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Pisarz,

Writing is a craft, unlike painting which is an art. A painter puts his work out on display and it is judged in mere seconds as good or bad by the viewers personality.

Writing, on the other hand, is generally evaluated by a query letter. It is tough to receive a glib 'not for us' since it takes much more time and effort to delve into what picture you are painting with words. Still, every work is like a brush stroke. If you stop you will never finish but if you keep at it your work will improve.

If you don't want to invest time in a second novel right away, how about short works? Look around and you'll find an incredible amount of stories that are begging to be told. Each one is like a brick, waiting for you to build the foundation of better writing.

With respect,
RT

Edit: Tsu beat me. Short version: What Tsu said!
RT
 
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FloVoyager

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If we (newbie, unpubbed-types) don't know what's "wrong" with the first novel, what incentive do we have to write another?

Passion. Only my passion for writing keeps me working on the next book when the last one has yet to net me a huge advance and movie deal. ;)
 

Lyra Jean

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I've written two short stories, my second short story is already published. I'm still trying to find a home for my first short story. It probably won't happen but I'll keep trying anyway. It only took me six years to get it done. (I have had writing discipline problems and it's a very depressing story.) It will probably never get published since it is my first short story.

I'm now working on a novel. This is my first novel. It will probably suck because I've never written a novel before. When it's done I'll send it out. I'll work on a second novel just to keep my mind off the first novel and not worry about how it is doing. (I worry a lot.) In the end you just have to evaluate if it's worth it to you.

For me it's worth it. It's the only thing I have a fire for.
 

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Sonarbabe said:
Miss Snark (a literary agent who blogs anonymously) often says a writer shouldn't consider shelving a piece until you've queried at least 100 agents. You've got a loooong way to go, my friend. :) Keep at it, you'll get there.

Wow. I woke up this morning determined to abandon book one and focus on book two. I've received helpful feedback, even very nice. I was told by one agent that the writing was "fabulous", but the subject matter too difficult, and invited to send a different manuscript. Another said the writing was excellent but the voice just too "jarring". One said the idea was unique, but not comfortable for the genre, one said it was more adventure than romance, etc. etc. My hero was abused as a child and also suffered PSTD from battlefield trauma. Hearing similar statements from various editors and agents made me decide to chalk it all up to experience, bury my baby, try to write something lighter, and move on. Now I don't know. I tried about 20 agents and queried it as a romance. Now I don't know if I should try about 80 more, lol, or accept that if more than one source feels the subject matter is too difficult to be marketable, it would be best to cut my losses and move on. Any advice?
 
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FergieC

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I'm just trying to understand why more experienced writers advise newbies to move on to #2. I, for one, have lost the confidence to do so.

I felt like that after my first attempt (which I now realise was utter rubbish. :gone: )

I just decided I wasn't cut out for it and there was no point even trying a second one. Then I met a brilliant writer, who I really admire after he'd been doing a reading. Wierdly, it was reading his first novel that made me realise how much I sucked! I looked at that, and looked at mine and went into total depression.

I told him that, and he smiled and said, 'ah, but you didn't see the three unpublishable ones before that'. That made me realise you shouldn't give up after one novel. If even he had three unpublished ones, there's hope for anyone...
 

clara bow

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Pisarz said:
Quote by Jamesaritchie
And even more important, how far along is your second novel? By the time a first novel has made the rounds, a second novel should be starting them.

As a newbie trying to get an agent for a first novel, I've been wondering about this advice. I've read it elsewhere, too. If we (newbie, unpubbed-types) don't know what's "wrong" with the first novel, what incentive do we have to write another? Could you guys please elaborate?

I think market cycles have a lot to do with this. Assuming one has written entertaining stories, it next becomes a matter of when is the right time to pitch it? There was a time, for example, when paranormal romances were summarily rejected. Now, they are all the rage. If I had submitted my PR back when the market was cool, I might have given up on it. Now, I had to wait several years (and at the time I hadn't given much thought to the genre so it didn't seem like much of a wait) for the right circumstances, but they came and I was ready with a manuscript to take advantage of it.

IMO, writing several manuscripts is not just about the craft. It's about having the product ready before or at the time a trend hits. I also don't think that every first novel is crap. It just may be that the market isn't there. So the frustrating part is that we have to sit on stories until a particular genre gets popular. Maybe sometimes the reason a first book doesn't sell is because of the market. Sometimes. :) I said sometimes.
 

Popeyesays

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Manat said:
Wow. I woke up this morning determined to abandon book one and focus on book two. I've received helpful feedback, even very nice. I was told by one agent that the writing was "fabulous", but the subject matter too difficult, and invited to send a different manuscript. Another said the writing was excellent but the voice just too "jarring". One said the idea was unique, but not comfortable for the genre, one said it was more adventure than romance, etc. etc. My hero was abused as a child and also suffered PSTD from battlefield trauma. Hearing similar statements from various editors and agents made me decide to chalk it all up to experience, bury my baby, try to write something lighter, and move on. Now I don't know. I tried about 20 agents and queried it as a romance. Now I don't know if I should try about 80 more, lol, or accept that if more than one source feels the subject matter is too difficult to be marketable, it would be best to cut my losses and move on. Any advice?

Why not try marketing it as contemporary and mainstream? PTSD is going to be with us and in people's mids as veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan continue returning home.

It has a good chance to be as timely in the near future as Vietnam novels were in the 1980's. If he's not a middle east veteran, tweak it and make him one. Hell, make the lady character the veteran with PTSD.

Regards,
Scott
 

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Popeyesays said:
Why not try marketing it as contemporary and mainstream? PTSD is going to be with us and in people's mids as veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan continue returning home.

It has a good chance to be as timely in the near future as Vietnam novels were in the 1980's. If he's not a middle east veteran, tweak it and make him one. Hell, make the lady character the veteran with PTSD.

Regards,
Scott

That's brilliant! Thanks Scott
 

Cathy C

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Dario D. said:
What I'd like to do is have an editor look at my book and tell me what he/she thinks, to give me a REAL idea what to expect. That would probably tell you more than 100 agency submissions... because those just don't tell you anything, you know? If it takes that many submissions to finally catch a fish, then you just can't look to it for answers as to how good your book really is. If you want answers, you have to ask questions :) Try asking an agent.

Watch for the next Brenda Novak Diabetes Charity Auction. Dozens of agents and editors donate a critique of a portion or a full manuscript to the highest bidder (for the charity, of course). You get a tax write-off and a REAL editor/agent to do just this. Take a look at the things offered in this year's auction

As for your original question, Reluctant Artist, you might want to post your query up in the SYW section. The people over there are TERRIFIC at hammering it into a shape where you'll get more requests for partials and fulls. That's really important to find the right agent. You're right that they need to see the writing first.
 

Sonarbabe

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Cathy C said:
As for your original question, Reluctant Artist, you might want to post your query up in the SYW section. The people over there are TERRIFIC at hammering it into a shape where you'll get more requests for partials and fulls. That's really important to find the right agent. You're right that they need to see the writing first.

I can personally vouch for what Cathy is saying. I posted a query there several months back and once everyone was done pointing out what needed fixing, I had one heck of a query letter that has, thus far anyway, landed me 3 partial requests. (I'm hoping maybe 1 or 2 will turn into fulls. hehe)
 

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I can attest to the value of sharing your work as well. I posted the plot summary for my query here in Rejection and Dejection and discovered that I wasn't articulating the meaning of my book very accurately. After a few insightful posts from the folks here, I cleaned it up (and thus the query as well) and have since had several requests for partials. Your fellow Absolute Writers are an incredible resource!
 

Jamesaritchie

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Pisarz said:
Quote by Jamesaritchie
And even more important, how far along is your second novel? By the time a first novel has made the rounds, a second novel should be starting them.

As a newbie trying to get an agent for a first novel, I've been wondering about this advice. I've read it elsewhere, too. If we (newbie, unpubbed-types) don't know what's "wrong" with the first novel, what incentive do we have to write another? Sure, I know it's always smart to hone the craft, but at what point is it a therapeutic exercise ("writing makes me feel good, even if no one sees it") and at what point is it a means to becoming publishable?

For me, it's a confidence problem. Oh, I have ideas for a second novel and I enjoy the art of writing, of course. Yet I can't bring myself to go through with work #2, and all that novel-writing and agent-hunting entails, if #1 doesn't catch anyone's interest. For what? To find out that my writing is just as unpublishable after the second novel as it was after the first? What if I write five novels and none of them get published--what benefit have I dervied besides the realization that I'm not cut out to be a writer? From a practical, my-aim-is-to-be-published standpoint, I worry that it may just be a waste of time.

I'm not trying to be contentious; I'm just trying to understand why more experienced writers advise newbies to move on to #2. I, for one, have lost the confidence to do so. Could you guys please elaborate?

That's like saying if you don't know how to play a piano on the first try, you may as well stop because you'll never get it right.

Why on earth would you believe your first effort at writing a novel is going to be any better than your first effort at playing the piano? To believe your first effort is going to be good enough to place you in the top one percent of the fourteen million other people out there who may have been working for years at honing their talent and improving their craft? That's not confidence, it's ego.

I don't talk about it much, but at one time I wanted to be a painter. I worked hard at it, I took all the courses, I studied the masters, etc. I simply lacked enough talent. But along the way I met an awful lot of painters, some of whom had tremendous amounts of talent. Not one of them was worth a damn when they started. Not one of them covered a first canvas in a way that would make anyone think they had talent.

Until the learned the craft, until they mastered form, technique, perspective, etc., they weren't much better than anyone else. And not one of them would have even imagined the first canvas they covered with paint should have been hung in a gallery, or on any wall except their mother's wall.

And most painters start when they're very, very young, and cover hundreds or thousands of canvases with paint before they hone their talent, and improve their craft, to the point where they can paint something worthwhile.

Darned few first novels sell, and most of the ones that do come from writers who have spent considerable time honing their talent and improving their craft in other areas of writing, be it with short stroies, articles, journalism, essays, an MFA, or just many college courses in creative writing, etc.

Writing is a process, and learning is a process. The more you do anything, the better you get at doing it. Everyone does have a natural limit. You have to have some degree of talent because skill and craft can only take you so far, but talent alone usually isn't enough, either.

And sometimes even a first sale isn't enough. Nora Roberts sold her first novel, and then had to write eight more before writing another novel anyone wanted to buy. How many would have given up after the next two or three novels failed to sell?

First novels can sell, but they're the lightning strikes, the winning lottery ticket, especially when they come from a writer who hasn't already spent years honing his talent and improving his craft. The number of first novels that sell? About one in 25,000, and most of these are from writers with some sort of background in writing.

Confidence is not believing you can get something right the first time you try it. That's ego. Confidence is believing that if you keep at it, if you put your nose against the grindstone and work long enough and hard enough, you'll reach a level where you can compete with the top one percent of anyone in any field. Confidence is believing you have room for improvement, and that hard work and many efforts will bring about that improvement.

Where would Stephen King be if he stopped after his first, unpublished novel? Of even after his third unpublished novel?

Perhaps you never will succeed. Perhaps you never will write a publlishable novel. There are no guarantees, and only a tiny fraction of those who try writing novels ever manage to sell one. There are roughly six million unpublished novels out there, and just under one percent of them will ever be published. This is just the way it is.

If you're looking for easy, if you're looking for a profession where success comes without long hours, hard work, and many, many efforts, this one ain't it. But if you're looking for a profession where long hours, hard work, and many, many efforts can separate you from the pack, can make you a success where those with more talent but less work ethic fail, then writing is perfect.
 
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