Horror and Violence... to much of a good thing?

Andre_Laurent · Sep 13, 2006

I am doing my first round of revisions and I find myself wondering if there is to much violence. The story is about vampires so there is plenty of blood to begin with as they munch their way through the story. But the antagonist is a halfling (half human, half vampire – transformation gone wrong kind of thing that left him in a really nasty frame of mind) and he is much more vicious and violent than any of the vampires. He positively gets his cookies off on killing them, usually with a good measure of torture first. It’s the torture, and detailed killing scenes that I am beginning to question. I want him to appear vicious and vengeful and I even let him give the MC a major dose of cruelty.

My question is, if you pick up a horror story (you are obviously expecting blood and violence to begin with) at what point do you say ‘it’s to much’ and toss it down? I'm starting to think some of the scenes should be cut short and let the imagination do the dirty work... or should I let it stand and show him in all his violent glory? Opinions please.

Marlowe · Sep 13, 2006

I don't mind violence and gore, and done properly, they can produce a level of visceral involvement that a more subdued narrative can't aspire to. But gratuitous stuff can get old after a while- each scene needs to have a distinctive reason for being there apart from just being another nasty scene where nasty things happen to people. You can try giving a unique spin to a particular act (sort of like what Cronenberg does in A History of Violence), but if you just throw scene after scene of the old ultra-violence, it loses its impact.

I'm not sure if I can give you a specific formula or anything. Just ask yourself each time if the sequence has some point beyond just showing everybody how vicious your main character is. If it doesn't, maybe you want to rethink it.

jbal · Sep 13, 2006

Back to Bentley Little, he wrote the most violent book I've probably ever read, Dominion. I loved it. As long as it contributes to the story, no limit for me.

John61480 · Sep 13, 2006

The way I look at it, is it just as enjoyable to read a book full of swear words? I find that too much of one thing will just "detract" my attention to the actual fact of that one thing. I thought the movie "A History Of Violence" hardly had any violence at all. While a movie like "Crank" was just like a video game, it was just way over done. So unless it is a zombie-brain eating gore fest, I'd just imagine vampire stuff to be tamer. I don't consider blood by itself-gore. However, I do consider dismemberment and other vile acts to be savage acts of violence. Especially if you describe them in detail. I think that would be the crux of your matter: how detailed the violent descriptions are.

Andre_Laurent · Sep 13, 2006

John61480 said:
The way I look at it, is it just as enjoyable to read a book full of swear words? I find that too much of one thing will just "detract" my attention to the actual fact of that one thing. I thought the movie "A History Of Violence" hardly had any violence at all. While a movie like "Crank" was just like a video game, it was just way over done. So unless it is a zombie-brain eating gore fest, I'd just imagine vampire stuff to be tamer. I don't consider blood by itself-gore. However, I do consider dismemberment and other vile acts to be savage acts of violence. Especially if you describe them in detail. I think that would be the crux of your matter: how detailed the violent descriptions are.

The two scenes in question involve his slaughter of a group of fledglings he finds. A couple of them he beheads in gruesome detail and three others get staked and set on fire while they are still alive, in gruesome detail. If these were the only two scenes I think they wouldn't be a problem but there are other instances of torture (one scene) a couple of killings (in detail - but not as bad) and a male on male rape, not in detail.

John61480 · Sep 13, 2006

Uh, well, I don't think those are a problem, but personally, the male to male rape...uhm, that might make me pause from reading and think to myself: "Whoa-dude, now where was I?" *flipping through the pages*

Andre_Laurent · Sep 13, 2006

John61480 said:
Uh, well, I don't think those are a problem, but personally, the male to male rape...uhm, that might make me pause from reading and think to myself: "Whoa-dude, now where was I?" *flipping through the pages*

Yeah, I couldn't convince myself to write THAT in detail, lol.

Rabe · Sep 14, 2006

Andre_Laurent said:
My question is, if you pick up a horror story (you are obviously expecting blood and violence to begin with) at what point do you say ‘it’s to much’ and toss it down? I'm starting to think some of the scenes should be cut short and let the imagination do the dirty work... or should I let it stand and show him in all his violent glory? Opinions please.

If I were to advise, I'd discuss not the level of violence or gore, but really the overall work.

I just saw 'The Wicker Man' which is supposed to be a 'horror' movie. It's only 'horror' in that it got remade with Nicholas Cage (looking freakier than ever) in the lead. Two minutes into the film, I'm wishing a horrible, torturous, painful death upon him. See, I just didn't care about the character I'm supposed to care about.

For me, it's all about the characters. If the writer can get me to care about the characters then I *care* about what's being done to them. It seems in the instances you're describing, I would probably not finish the book because (from what you're saying here) you're getting the jones on the violence and gore rather than on telling the story of the character.

In my novel "Not All Dreams" I took out a LOT of the more violent parts to show how what is happening to the MC is affecting the small town in general, and found I had a stronger story for it. I have only one really violent scene in there and I hope it really works because by the time we get to that point, I want the readers to squirm along with what I do to the MC because A> they care about him and B> I've given it the right pacing that THEY see what is happening and feel as helpless as the MC to stop it, because they've forgotten they can put down the book and shut it away.

Also, consider Stephen King's "Misery" which is in itself a very violent book. What is the MOST dramatic scene in that book? Where Anne "hobbles" Paul with an axe. I've read that book several times and that scene *always* gets me because I care about the character and King paced it just correctly that I 'felt' the agony right along with Paul until the axe came down and took off the foot.

Now consider recent 'horror' movies that seem to think splashing blood and gore upon the screen is what is going to freak moviegoers out. (No, the Wicker Man didn't do this.) The problem is that the director/producers are so busy trying to gross out the audience or make them uncomfortable with violence that they tend to forget THAT is not what scares the viewer. What scares the viewer is knowing something bad is going to happen and wanting to change it (because they like the character) and are unable to do so - so they are swept along for the ride. Unfortunately, though, we have 'horror' movies that are so crappy that the audience doesn't go to be scared but to cheer when the main characters are killed. Sometimes the more violent the better.

Hence, my disappointment with the end of The Wicker Man.

So I advise to not think so much of the violence of the work, but whether or not that violence is coming across to the reader in a way that makes them squirm.

Rabe...

JAK · Sep 22, 2006

Don't care much for the torture thing, even in horror. Killing, yes. Maybe a bit of suffering first, but I prefer it end and move on. Just my preference

Suppose you have 8 good violent scenes. Scene #8 should be your last and best, and the others lead incrementally to it. Might want a bit of variety.

You could take 2 of those and show maybe the after-scene instead of going into blow-by-blow detail. Sometimes it's a lot freakier to have someone come up afterward and stand there, stunned by the carnage.

Then again, maybe 8 is too many. Implied violence and death might be a good substitute for one or two of those. Maybe the potential victim decides to end things on his own in light of insurmountable odds. Maybe the victim goes mad and the baddies enjoy it and let him/her escape.

Doug Johnson · Sep 22, 2006

If you're writing from the antagonist's point of view, you might want to consider changing to the victim's view point.

Fighting against a halfling is heoric, even if the victim loses and the audience will want to keep reading to see the halfling gets what he deserves in the end.

Plus, if the victim fights back, it's not really torture is it? It's a battle.

Jackie Coupe · Sep 23, 2006

never too much!
if you pull back fom what you really want to write its going to sound phoney - please be true to yourself, as long as something is techincally well-written and in context the reader will appreciate it, afterall, the are hopefully fans of the genre if they pick your books...x :tongue

Andre_Laurent · Sep 24, 2006

Thanks to each of you for the replies. I have been rereading each of the scenes with these comments in mind. Most of them are from the POV of the halfling except the scenes with the MC and one that begins in the POV of the halfling, cuts to his victim, then goes back to the halfling (he kills the poor fledgling).

I think I have made the scene at the mid point stronger than the ending... not by a lot but a little, not a good thing since the end needs a good bang... and since I can't dull down the mid-scene, I think I need to give the ending a tune up.... I hate it when that happens.

Thanks for your comments.

Liam Jackson · Sep 24, 2006

I apologize for coming late to this thread, but I wanted to echo the post by Jackie. There are numerous compelling arguments for and against violence in literature, but in the final analysis I think you've got to remain true to the story. Sugar-coating rings just as false as gratuitous, over-the-top characterization.

Andre_Laurent · Sep 24, 2006

Liam Jackson said:
I apologize for coming late to this thread, but I wanted to echo the post by Jackie. There are numerous compelling arguments for and against violence in literature, but in the final analysis I think you've got to remain true to the story. Sugar-coating rings just as false as gratuitous, over-the-top characterization.

Thanks for commenting. Yes, I agree. I feel that the scenes are necessary. The story is about violent, blood thirsty creatures, not choir boys. There is violence by them, against them and among each other. It is about survival of the strongest and smartest. Cutting the story is a cheat, as I see it.

Jackie Coupe · Sep 25, 2006

HUZZAH! The writer LIVES!!! Feed the beast and in return he will serve you well.
I can't wait for your book, whats the future hold, do you have a deadline in mind and a submission schedule or are those things waaaaaaaaaay down the line?

HorrorWriter · Sep 25, 2006

Andre,
If violence adds to the story, keep it. Just feed it intricately to your readers. Please keep the male-on-male rape scene. Far too many writers feel free to have rape scenes involving women and children, but cringe at the idea of men being raped. I think there should be more of it! Level the playing field a little. If rape is necessary to move the story along, do it. Don't allow anyone to tell you to get rid of it because they don't feel comfortable with it. It's fiction, but who does feel comfortable with it in real life. Some people confuse truth with fiction. By the way, I loved the prison show, "Oz". LOL!

Andre_Laurent · Sep 25, 2006

HorrorWriter said:
Andre,
If violence adds to the story, keep it. Just feed it intricately to your readers. Please keep the male-on-male rape scene. Far too many writers feel free to have rape scenes involving women and children, but cringe at the idea of men being raped. I think there should be more of it! Level the playing field a little. If rape is necessary to move the story along, do it. Don't allow anyone to tell you to get rid of it because they don't feel comfortable with it. It's fiction, but who does feel comfortable with it in real life. Some people confuse truth with fiction. By the way, I loved the prison show, "Oz". LOL!

The rape scene makes me cringe... wasn't sure I could do that to my MC... I don't think he was to happy about it either.

Rabe · Sep 25, 2006

Andre_Laurent said:
The rape scene makes me cringe... wasn't sure I could do that to my MC... I don't think he was to happy about it either.

Then perhaps your MC should have gone to a different writer OR chosen a better god! As for my characters...they deserve WHATEVER I decide to do to them.

Unfortunately my gay rape scene was cut to take my horror novel from nearly 800 pages to only 630 pages.

Rabe...

Andre_Laurent · Sep 25, 2006

Rabe said:
Then perhaps your MC should have gone to a different writer OR chosen a better god! As for my characters...they deserve WHATEVER I decide to do to them.

Unfortunately my gay rape scene was cut to take my horror novel from nearly 800 pages to only 630 pages.

Rabe...

I'm afraid he did deserve it... just because I said so. It wasn't a gay thing at all though. It was about territory, and domination of the young by the older and stronger.

HorrorWriter · Sep 26, 2006

Andre,
Well, you could always use backspace...

Andre_Laurent · Sep 26, 2006

Jackie Coupe said:
HUZZAH! The writer LIVES!!! Feed the beast and in return he will serve you well.
I can't wait for your book, whats the future hold, do you have a deadline in mind and a submission schedule or are those things waaaaaaaaaay down the line?

I'm working on revisions... honestly I want to finish but I'm not looking forward to those rejection slips.

Rabe · Sep 26, 2006

Andre_Laurent said:
I'm afraid he did deserve it... just because I said so. It wasn't a gay thing at all though. It was about territory, and domination of the young by the older and stronger.

Mine was a gay rape scene. It involved a longterm gay couple and in the midst of nightmarish influences one rapes the other pretty brutally. Then I have a couple cops talking about it later and I hated myself for all the ignorant ******** that flew out of one character's mouth but I wound up hating that character even more because that was *true* to the character.

A beta reader wrote me and said something along the lines of "don't take this the wrong way, but I want *character's name* to die slowly, painfully, horribly and then have it all done over again." Which put a smile on my face cause I wanted that character to be hated.

But, in the final analysis, all that had to be taken out because of length. But if it's part of the story, then by all means don't shy away from it. Write what part of it you're comfortable with and leave the rest to the reader's very active imagination.

Rabe...

Jackie Coupe · Sep 27, 2006

Andre_Laurent said:
I'm working on revisions... honestly I want to finish but I'm not looking forward to those rejection slips.

self publish will always be there to catch what mainstream publishers shy away from - aim to publish, I went with a self-publish and got picked up later on when I had proven my point that it sells, I did it quite cheap too, I'm not an advert but you could have your work out as an ebook with www.diggorypress.com for $30.00.
Really.
They helped me loads after I got the hard treatment from Authorhouse.

Andre_Laurent · Sep 27, 2006

Rabe said:
Mine was a gay rape scene. It involved a longterm gay couple and in the midst of nightmarish influences one rapes the other pretty brutally. Then I have a couple cops talking about it later and I hated myself for all the ignorant ******** that flew out of one character's mouth but I wound up hating that character even more because that was *true* to the character.

A beta reader wrote me and said something along the lines of "don't take this the wrong way, but I want *character's name* to die slowly, painfully, horribly and then have it all done over again." Which put a smile on my face cause I wanted that character to be hated.

But, in the final analysis, all that had to be taken out because of length. But if it's part of the story, then by all means don't shy away from it. Write what part of it you're comfortable with and leave the rest to the reader's very active imagination.

Rabe...

I'm afraid I left most of it to the imagination.

Andre_Laurent · Sep 27, 2006

Jackie Coupe said:
self publish will always be there to catch what mainstream publishers shy away from - aim to publish, I went with a self-publish and got picked up later on when I had proven my point that it sells, I did it quite cheap too, I'm not an advert but you could have your work out as an ebook with www.diggorypress.com for $30.00.
Really.
They helped me loads after I got the hard treatment from Authorhouse.

I'm a glutton for punishment.

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