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Tracy
09-08-2006, 02:20 AM
I was in a tile shop today, and was sitting at the desk while the assistant was in the back room ringing a supplier for me. There was a box with business cards in it. The box had a hand-written label, "Tilers business cards". I couldn't help it, I really couldn't. I lifted up the box and added the missing apostrophe.
Ahhh, now I could breathe and my heart-rate calmed down.
Is this very sad?
Do you think I can get help?

Silver King
09-08-2006, 02:35 AM
You did the right thing, Tracy. Sounds like a perfectly normal response to a mistake you felt compelled to correct, as long as you didn't place the apostrophe after the "es."

Now if you start carrying a ladder around town and climbing to dangerous heights to fix spelling errors on business signs, then I'd say you should seek help for your compulsion.

RG570
09-08-2006, 02:37 AM
That reminds me of the time I saw this on a window in a town in northern Alberta:

"Certified Gemoligist"

and I'm sure that they wrote "Jewlery" on the window as well. I only wish I could have fixed it with a marker.

PattiTheWicked
09-08-2006, 02:55 AM
My daughter's cheerleading squad makes a banner each week for their football team. This is the third week of the season, and I finally had to say something.

I told the assistant coach -- who's about my age -- "I'm sorry, I'm truly not trying to nitpick. But the "your" in "your #1" should have an apostrophe, followed by an "re" on the end."

She looked at me, baffled, and then took her paintbrush and added 'r. So then the sign said "your'r #1."

Le sigh.

She looked up at me and said "I don't understand what you're saying."

So I turned the second r into an "e". There wasn't a darn thing I could do about that misplaced apostrophe. What scares me the most is that no one else appeared to notice this THREE WEEKS IN A ROW.

"your #1". Sheesh.

wyntermoon
09-08-2006, 03:06 AM
OUCH! Those examples hurt my eyes, especially the last one.

As a teenager, I would drive by a sign that said, "You have just past XYZ Nursery". My teeth ground down to the nubs every time I "past" it.

SeanDSchaffer
09-08-2006, 03:55 AM
I don't much care for 'irregardless', either.

I admit, I'm also a stickler for spelling, punctuation and grammar. I constantly find myself biting my tongue when I feel like screaming, "NO, NO, NO! That's not the way it's spelled!"

My favorite peeves in this case are 'its' and 'it's', as well as 'your' and 'you're'. To see some people using sentences such as "I hope your happy" or "Its only a message board", is pure torment sometimes.

This is especially true, when the perpetrator is a well-respected professional. (No, I do not plan on naming names.)


Then there's the use of phrasing such as "The proper grammer". I would love to see more people spelling 'grammar' correctly on a writing board.

But that's just my little pet peeve, and a pretty sad one at that.

allion
09-08-2006, 03:58 AM
I keep seeing this advertisement on TV for a medical supply shop in the area. They sell Tempur-pedic items (the pillows, the mattresses, etc.).

They misspell "Tempur" as "Temper" in their captioning as to what product lines they carry. Could they not check the pillow packaging? ARGH!!

If I am not jumping up and down once a day at a misspelling or grammar mistake, it's a slow day. Yes, I am a sick puppy.

Karen

Haggis
09-08-2006, 04:22 AM
I'm sure I make mistakes. Bad mistakes. Yet, that doesn't stop me from freaking out over the mistakes of others. For example,"I graduated high school." No, you didn't. You graduated FROM high school. Or, "I liked that alot." No, you didn't, you liked that a lot. Two words. Get it?

There are mistakes in forums all the time. I usually pass those off as someone typing too quickly and not checking before posting. I've done "there's" instead of "theirs" myself. But never in anything serious. Never. I mean, never. Hopefully.

I was talking with a friend of mine the other day. She's a college professor. She told me she was preparing to "orientate" her students. I cringed. She's teaches languages, and has forgotten more English grammar than I ever knew. We had a talk about "orientate." She was not a happy camper in the end.

But I'm rambling now. Why do I let certain words or phrases irritate me so much?

Medievalist
09-08-2006, 04:25 AM
I never ever used to confuse its and it's, or your're and your, but now, since I started teaching, I see them used incorrectly more often than I see them used correctly.

It's terrifying. I'm constantly checking my own prose, and I still screw up.

SeanDSchaffer
09-08-2006, 04:27 AM
At least incorrect phrases and spelling don't bother you alot, Haggis.;)

I have the same problem with that particular issue. I hate it with a passion when people use the word 'alot' instead of the words 'a lot'.

It's kind of like people who say 'ain't', ain't a word. It makes no sense.

Aubrey
09-08-2006, 05:11 AM
Remember back when Apple had the "Think Different" campaign? That drove me around the bend! It's "differently"! What have the L and Y done that's so bad they deserve a boycott?

What also drives me bonkers is "doubtless". Yes it's right, but I've always wondered why. It's so strange for an adverb not to have LY tacked on. it just looks half-dressed.

"At" tacked on the end of a sentence leaves me waiting for the rest of it.. Most other prepositions look perfectly normal hanging out at the end of a sentence, but not "at". "Where you at" just seems so over the top.

Duncan J Macdonald
09-08-2006, 06:37 AM
I never ever used to confuse its and it's, or your're and your, but now, since I started teaching, I see them used incorrectly more often than I see them used correctly.

It's terrifying. I'm constantly checking my own prose, and I still screw up.**cough** That would be "you're", yes?

I seem to recall a law of USENET that says, in essence, that any post which points our either a spelling or a grammatical mistake will contain one of its own.

Soccer Mom
09-08-2006, 06:39 AM
We should start our own chapter of Proofreaders' Anonymous. I applaud your courage for fixing that error. I would have just sat and stewed over that apostrophe until it drove me nuts.

I used to proofread everything, all the time. And I would point out the errors to the people who made them, making me very unpopular with friends, co-workers, family, etc. I'm much better now. But then again, I don't get out much any more. I'm most proud of the fact that I haven't yet corrected all the typos in any given edition of our local paper, and mailed the paper back to the editor. <pats self on back>

Hi. My name is Shrug. And I'm a proof-aholic.

Hi Shrug! *waves* (and hi to all other proof-aholics).

Typos in the forum mostly roll off me. Most people probably type and move on, but I confess that when I see an old post of mine with errors, I cringe.

My pastor, whom I love dearly, makes errors every single week in the blasted program. I finally have gotten him to show them to me ahead of time. I fix errors for him and email it back and yet somehow he has new ones in the program by sunday. Aaaargh! "As we pray the pray he taught us to pray," Aaaargh! And I can't cuss in church.

moth
09-08-2006, 06:49 AM
I suppose I should just admit it before an intervention becomes necessary -- I too am a proof-aholic.

Soccer Mom, how funny that you mention your pastor! Ever since I was young, I've always been distracted by grammatical errors in church sermons. I find myself thinking of different ways the preacher could have phrased the sentence, ways that would be not only grammatically correct but also more tightly worded...only to "come to" some minutes later and realize I have no idea what the preacher is currently talking about. :o ;)

Tish Davidson
09-08-2006, 07:24 AM
I have been known to favor the grocery store that has a checkout lane for "10 items or fewer" over the one whose checkout lane is "10 items or less."

Mom'sWrite
09-08-2006, 07:28 AM
Years ago when I was hiding out in the hallowed halls of ASU, I received a letter from my sister in Chicago. She was in college too, majoring in PR. The letter was horrific. It was like a classic from The Messpeelers Handbok. I couldn't believe it. Every other word was spelled incorrectly. Seriously, I thought it was a joke, so I whipped out my trusty red pen and corrected it. Then I sent it back to her. I probably shouldn't have done that because about a week later, I received the letter back, torn into microscopic shreds. Oh well, I thought it was funny.

Kristen King
09-08-2006, 07:29 AM
The newsletter Editorial Eye has a section called "Black Eyes" for stuff like this. My most recent submissions involved a recall of tainted "beef panties" in a Reuters article, an offer for free karate "unifroms" when you sign up for a certain class (on a very pricey, glossy, four-color mailer), and "Go Figthing Irish!" on a major search engine's homepage. They're EVERYWHERE. Beef panties is my favorite, but I love one a friend submitted from the program at a funeral: "a time to reap, and a time to sew."

Kristen

Silver King
09-08-2006, 07:52 AM
**cough** That would be "you're", yes?

I seem to recall a law of USENET that says, in essence, that any post which points our either a spelling or a grammatical mistake will contain one of its own.
That would be "points OUT," nes pas?

Kristen King
09-08-2006, 07:56 AM
That would be "points OUT," nes pas?

And that would be n'est pas, no?

Silver King
09-08-2006, 08:01 AM
Oui, but I thought we were playing mistakes within rants. I must be thinking too much...

TheIT
09-08-2006, 08:02 AM
And that would be n'est pas, no?

n'est-ce pas

Kristen King
09-08-2006, 08:04 AM
n'est-ce pas

And that would be why I got a C in French. :D

kk :]

TheIT
09-08-2006, 08:11 AM
It's been a while since I've spoken French, so I had to look up the correct spelling. ;)

The typo I'll add to the list was something I saw in an advertising campaign in a local Mexican restaurant chain. They were advertising "SIZZILIN' FAJITAS" in great big letters on posters in the main window and on placards on every table. I don't mind the quotation mark for the missing "G", but the three "I's" still bothers me. The scary thing is that they spelled "sizzlin'" correctly in the rest of the text.

Silver King
09-08-2006, 08:15 AM
And that would be why I got a C in French.
And I thought you did that on purpose to play along.

kikonie
09-08-2006, 08:37 AM
I heard a MIT professor on CNN say the word irregardless. Drove me up the wall. Arrgghh!!

Um, Shrug, since we're on the topic, that would be "an MIT professor"; just say it out loud. 'Pologees'

Southern_girl29
09-08-2006, 09:17 AM
This reminds me of something that happened with one of the newspapers here. It's owned by the same company as the paper I work for. Anyway, in the Lifestyles section, an engagement announcement ran. At the end, it said, "The couple will exchange cows" instead of "The couple will exchange vows."

It was featured on The Tonight Show, and when the couple actually exchanged vows, they gave each other stuffed cows. They really had a great sense of humor.

Another good one happened when I was editor of a small newspaper for about seven months. I didn't proof the ads that went in, or I would have caught it because I tend to look out for it. The ad was about public transportation, but said pubic transportation.

The grammar mistake that drives me nuts is apostrophes. I wish people could grasp the idea that plural words don't need them. I would be a happy camper.

And, I have to say that the worst examples of grammatical errors come to me in press releases and announcements from teachers.

Scrawler
09-08-2006, 10:16 AM
I'm too ashamed to admit how annoyed I get when I see and hear poor grammar, especially when it comes from TV news.

poetinahat
09-08-2006, 10:24 AM
What also drives me bonkers is "doubtless". Yes it's right, but I've always wondered why. It's so strange for an adverb not to have LY tacked on. it just looks half-dressed.

I feel your pain. (Well, not really yours, since when I feel it, it's mine.)

Apparently, "orientated" is correct. I dislike it intensely.

JumpingJack
09-08-2006, 03:34 PM
Although I do agree with most of the comments in this thread, I don't bother doing too much proofing when posting on web boards, just the obvious stuff, otherwise I would never get any of the "real writing" done.

To me its the real writing that matters. Posts on messageboards don't count, they are just chat (my opinion only).

So i apologise now, just this once, and never again, to everyone, who has, or will ever, read my posts.

I will never bother to proof them past the blatantly obvious mistakes.

They WILL contain errors.
I WON'T correct all of them (and i will enjoy not changing them)
I WILL omit regular punctuation, and spell things wrong, because i can.
I WILL pride myself in being inaccurate. Just as much as i pride myself in being accurate in my "real writing"

That includes this post (which contains many mistakes)

As for you proofaholics, I'm sure this post will bug you!

If it doesn't then this is for your benefit

Yew prewfers rearly dew my head in, your always chang'n stuf.

Julie Worth
09-08-2006, 03:44 PM
The box had a hand-written label, "Tilers business cards". I couldn't help it, I really couldn't. I lifted up the box and added the missing apostrophe.

Ah, but where did you put it? How do you know these cards werenít for the Tilersí Provident Society? Or maybe it was misspelled as well. Maybe it was Tylerís Pub.

K1P1
09-08-2006, 04:05 PM
I'm most proud of the fact that I haven't yet corrected all the typos in any given edition of our local paper, and mailed the paper back to the editor.

I haven't done that either, but I've threatened it! Instead, I cancelled my subscription and when they call to to try to sell me a new one, I tell them why. Now I subscribe to the Wall Street Journal - far fewer typos.

The really scary thing is that my children are just as critical of typos, mispunctuation and bad grammar. I'm raising another generation of US.

Silver King
09-08-2006, 06:35 PM
Although I do agree with most of the comments in this thread, I don't bother doing too much proofing when posting on web boards, just the obvious stuff, otherwise I would never get any of the "real writing" done.

To me its the real writing that matters. Posts on messageboards don't count, they are just chat (my opinion only).
You say that now, JumpingJack, but what if one of your posts ends up in a sticky thread that lasts a long, long time? It happened to me, and though I'm over it now, I agonized for a while what I could've said differently, or better.

Rarely does anyone get hassled for typos and minor grammar flaws. Our members are in all stages of their writing lives and are usually given abundant leeway with language usage. When errors are pointed out, it's almost always done for helpful reasons, and sometimes in a light-hearted manner to tease one another like you've seen in this thread.

Some of the posts here are humorous because we've made spelling mistakes while pointing out errors others have made. Now that's funny. I did it myself with a French word earlier, and it took Kristen King about three seconds to point it out. Then, in turn, she was called out for misspelling the same word she was trying to correct. It's a wonderful blend of humor and irony that maybe only writers can appreciate.

rekirts
09-08-2006, 09:58 PM
Yesterday I was talking to a friend who said at one point that he "could care less" about something. He immediately corrected himself to "I couldn't care less." I thought that was neat that he actually thought about what he had said. He used to work in publishing.

K1P1
09-08-2006, 10:02 PM
Rarely does anyone get hassled for typos and minor grammar flaws. Our members are in all stages of their writing lives and are usually given abundant leeway with language usage. When errors are pointed out, it's almost always done for helpful reasons, and sometimes in a light-hearted manner to tease one another like you've seen in this thread.

Some of the posts here are humorous because we've made spelling mistakes while pointing out errors others have made. Now that's funny. I did it myself with a French word earlier, and it took Kristen King about three seconds to point it out. Then, in turn, she was called out for misspelling the same word she was trying to correct. It's a wonderful blend of humor and irony that maybe only writers can appreciate.

I only point out spelling or typing errors here at AW when they are inadvertently funny - for example a double meaning. I wouldn't criticize punctuation here, since it's done to give the effect of colloquial speech.

On the other hand, for years I've paid way too much attention to punctuation around emoticons. I mean, it looks really funny to put a period before a colon and a parenthesis, so do you just leave out the period and let the emoticon be the punctuation at the end of the sentence? It's so much easier here at AW, since it will turn into a smily and I can use the period with a clear conscience.

I think Freud would have something to say about errors made while correcting others. "There but for the grace of God go I."

Tracy
09-08-2006, 11:52 PM
Okay, so the concensus seems to me that I AM sad as I originally thought, but that I'm not alone. And that I don't need help unless I'm climbing ladders, so that's a relief.
I had such a laugh at these examples. They're sad, really, but you gotta laugh.
Thanks to everybody who contributed.

Kristen King
09-08-2006, 11:53 PM
And I thought you did that on purpose to play along.

Baby, I'm not saying I didn't. :] But that IS why I got a C in French. The only thing I remember how to say is Est-ce que vous voulez acheter une vache? and I'm not eve sure I did it right. :] That, and Ou est la gare? Je ne parle pas la francais. Je comprens seulement un peu. Je suis desolee--je suis Americainne.

Kristen

Wordworm
09-09-2006, 12:18 AM
Okay, so the concensus seems to me that I AM sad as I originally thought, but that I'm not alone.

Of course, you meant consensus.

Okay, since we're on the topic...my personal bugaboo is watching all the typos on CNN, especially the ones in the tickertape news running across the bottom of the screen—although they're almost as frequent in the headlines on the main screen. But that tickertape is guaranteed to have at least two typos every five minutes...I find myself sitting there, counting them as they go by. Makes TV watching very difficult.

And the other one that bugs me for some reason is one I've seen on this forum a lot..."judgement" instead of "judgment"...which I admit is a tricky one, and not especialy intuitive.

Mom'sWrite
09-09-2006, 01:23 AM
Est-ce que vous voulez acheter une vache?

So? Who bought the cow? I have to know or I will not be sleeping well tonight.

TheIT
09-09-2006, 01:27 AM
So? Who bought the cow? I have to know or I will not be sleeping well tonight.

Didn't Jack sell one for six magic beans?

Silver King
09-09-2006, 01:56 AM
It was five beans. Jack counts them by saying something like, "Two in each hand and one in your mouth."

I just made up a new term for the behavior some of us are exhibiting: Compulsive/Repulsive Nature, which is the need to correct, whether mentally or outwardly, every written mistake we come across.

I'm rather proud of my condition, and I wouldn't change my Compulsive/Repulsive Nature, unless I saw it misspelled.

Mom'sWrite
09-09-2006, 02:05 AM
Didn't Jack sell one for six magic beans?

So Jack bought the cow only to flip to someone else for beans? Or is Kristen really Jack? Or does Kristen know Jack? Because I don't know Jack, as I'm constantly reminded by my kids. Someone please save me.

TheIT
09-09-2006, 02:09 AM
So Jack bought the cow only to flip to someone else for beans? Or is Kristen really Jack? Or does Kristen know Jack? Because I don't know Jack, as I'm constantly reminded by my kids. Someone please save me.

No problem, just climb this beanstalk.

Mom'sWrite
09-09-2006, 02:10 AM
No problem, just climb this beanstalk.

Pervert!:D

TheIT
09-09-2006, 02:13 AM
Uh, the beanstalk growing out of the ground where Jack dropped the magic beans? Never mind....

Soccer Mom
09-09-2006, 03:03 AM
Yeah right. And there's a magic harp up there. Sounds to me like Jack was smoking the beans.

Kristen King
09-09-2006, 03:11 AM
Do you think he dried them and ground them up first??? I'm having a really hard time figuring out the logistics of that, but I would really like to. :D

Kristen

Soccer Mom
09-09-2006, 07:03 AM
Ground. rolled. Lit. I'm telling you. Jack's just that type of wayward youth. Next thing you hear, he's gonna be boosting birds that lay golden eggs to feed his habit and killing off giants that get in his way. Mark my words. Jack is one disturbed boy.

SeanDSchaffer
09-09-2006, 07:08 AM
Although I do agree with most of the comments in this thread, I don't bother doing too much proofing when posting on web boards, just the obvious stuff, otherwise I would never get any of the "real writing" done.

To me its the real writing that matters. Posts on messageboards don't count, they are just chat (my opinion only).

So i apologise now, just this once, and never again, to everyone, who has, or will ever, read my posts.

I will never bother to proof them past the blatantly obvious mistakes.

They WILL contain errors.
I WON'T correct all of them (and i will enjoy not changing them)
I WILL omit regular punctuation, and spell things wrong, because i can.
I WILL pride myself in being inaccurate. Just as much as i pride myself in being accurate in my "real writing"

That includes this post (which contains many mistakes)

As for you proofaholics, I'm sure this post will bug you!

If it doesn't then this is for your benefit

Yew prewfers rearly dew my head in, your always chang'n stuf.


Oh, the humanity!

;)

Sandi LeFaucheur
09-10-2006, 01:23 AM
And the other one that bugs me for some reason is one I've seen on this forum a lot..."judgement" instead of "judgment"...which I admit is a tricky one, and not especialy intuitive.

Actually, my dictionary (Collins) indicates both are correct.

SeanDSchaffer
09-10-2006, 01:38 AM
Actually, my dictionary (Collins) indicates both are correct.


"Judgement" is an older way of spelling "Judgment". Technically, they're both correct.

However, most word processor spell checkers that I have used, point out that "Judgement" is wrong.

When I was a child, many words that ended with an 'e', kept the 'e' when a 'ment' was added at the end. "Judgement" was one of those words.

Bk_30
09-10-2006, 02:15 AM
Is it no wonder then, that certain words are spelled incorrectly, when they continue to change the spelling?

ResearchGuy
09-10-2006, 02:18 AM
...And the other one that bugs me for some reason is one I've seen on this forum a lot..."judgement" instead of "judgment"...which I admit is a tricky one, and not especialy intuitive.
The British spelling is "judgement," with the e in the middle. The preferred American spelling omits that e. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language shows both spellings, not flagging the one with the e as nonstandard.

FWIW.

--Ken

pdr
09-10-2006, 04:04 AM
"judgement" instead of "judgment"...which I admit is a tricky one, and not especially intuitive.

I didn't know Americans spelled it without the e. So how do you say the word then?

I understood the e after the g to be necessary otherwise the g will be pronounced hard - g=gate - instead of the soft j sound needed for the word Judgement.

The rule I know is that if you want the soft sound of c or g those letters must be followed by e or i. (And sometimes i is a y.)

ResearchGuy
09-10-2006, 04:30 AM
"judgement" instead of "judgment"...which I admit is a tricky one, and not especially intuitive.

I didn't know Americans spelled it without the e. So how do you say the word then?
That e has no effect on the pronunciation.

Simplified American spelling dates back to the days of Noah Webster. My guess is that judgement was one of the words he simplified, to judgment. By the same token, labour became labor, colour became color, and so on.

Some time with a good dictionary can be helpful with such questions.

--Ken

SeanDSchaffer
09-10-2006, 04:43 AM
That e has no effect on the pronunciation.

Simplified American spelling dates back to the days of Noah Webster. My guess is that judgement was one of the words he simplified, to judgment. By the same token, labour became labor, colour became color, and so on.

Some time with a good dictionary can be helpful with such questions.

--Ken


My Emphasis.

I'm not so sure about that, Ken. When I first learned spelling, in Elementary School, there was no mention that I recall of words like 'judgment' (without the middle 'e'). Of course, I am the first to admit that each state probably has its own criteria for what is and is not proper English. But at least in the State of Oregon, where I grew up, the spelling 'Judgment' was not regularly used until after I graduated High School.

pdr
09-10-2006, 05:01 AM
That e has no effect on the pronunciation.

Why not?
Don't you use the ce/i/y ge/i/y rule in America to make g or c soft?

Do you say Judge with a hard g or a soft g?

Wordworm
09-10-2006, 05:03 AM
Never mind all of that. I am now absolutely horrified to see my quote excerpted so many times with "especially" missing an L. Yes, it's true that ever since my son decided to clean my keyboard, all the keys are much stickier, and I often find that I have to bang extra hard, ESPECIALLY when there's a double letter, but still...the horror. The shame. The humiliation. How could you all let this pass without passing judgment? Or judgement? Are you just torturing me? Making me twist in the wind as I agonize over my blatant typo-deficiency?

I'm not sure I can ever show my face on this thread again...*sigh*

Silver King
09-10-2006, 05:27 AM
Your misspelling occurred only because you corrected Tracy's "consensus," Wordworm. Strangely, the same has happened to nearly every other poster who chimed in with a helpful spelling hint (myself included).

It must have something to do with the stress of trying to reach perfection when posting in the Grammar forum, along with a serious dose of Murphy's Law.

Wordworm
09-10-2006, 05:38 AM
Your misspelling occurred only because you corrected Tracy's "consensus," Wordworm. Strangely, the same has happened to nearly every other poster who chimed in with a helpful spelling hint (myself included).

It must have something to do with the stress of trying to reach perfection when posting in the Grammar forum, along with a serious dose of Murphy's Law.
Nevertheless, I'm sorry to say that I now feel compelled to flagellate myself with a Dinschrift diphthong until my sense of inadequacy subsides...

Silver King
09-10-2006, 06:01 AM
Dinschrift diphthong? Are you sure you spelled that right?;)

(I'm okay with diphthong, but Dinschrift has me confused.)

Wordworm
09-10-2006, 08:51 AM
Dinschrift is a family of fonts. I just picked it for the alliteration.

ResearchGuy
09-10-2006, 09:26 PM
My Emphasis.

I'm not so sure about that, Ken. When I first learned spelling, in Elementary School, there was no mention that I recall of words like 'judgment' (without the middle 'e'). Of course, I am the first to admit that each state probably has its own criteria for what is and is not proper English. But at least in the State of Oregon, where I grew up, the spelling 'Judgment' was not regularly used until after I graduated High School.
Puzzling.

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, (First) College Edition, (c) 1953-1959, shows only the spelling judgment. That was a distinguished dictionary, later adopted as standard by The New York Times, for example. My father was the etymological editor of that dictionary for about 40 years, through a few editions and countless interim updates between new editions.

Webster's Third New International Dictionary (Merriam-Webster; 1966 printing), shows the spelling judgment first, with an "also" before judgement. On the other hand, the Oxford English Dictionary (1971) reverses the order of the spellings, Judgement, judgment -- with of course one pronunciation applying to both spellings. My own observation in reading is that the spelling normally found in British writing includes that e in the middle; American spelling usually omits it. Hence the different order of the spellings in American and British dictionaries.

By the way, Bryan Garner, in his useful A Dictionary of Modern American Usage, has this to say about spelling of the word:

"Judgment is the preferred form in AmE and in British legal texts, even as far back as the 19th century. Judgement is prevalent in British nonlegal texts and was thought by H.W. Fowler to be the better form . . . ."

I have no idea why schools in Oregon would have preferred the British spelling.

Make of it what you will.

--Ken

SeanDSchaffer
09-10-2006, 10:01 PM
I only know what I've experienced, Ken. I was raised on the spelling 'Judgement' instead of 'Judgment'. It might be strange, but that's the way it happened.

I honestly never knew there was a spelling 'judgment' until after I graduated from High School in 1990. It was never presented to me in that spelling.


Oh, well. Whatever works, works.


ETA:
By the way, I just looked the word up in my brand-new dictionary, the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, from 2004. It shows both spellings as correct.

Also, the same can be said for my Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary, Fifth Edition, from 1948. The two different spellings, according to both dictionaries, are correct.

Wordworm
09-10-2006, 10:28 PM
Now that you guys have started dissecting judgment/judgement, what's gnawing at me is why I ever adopted the no "e" spelling in the first place. I'm in Toronto, and historically we Canadians have always used British spelling ahead of American. Now that I've come to the realization that somewhere along the line I migrated to the U.S. version, I almost feel like a traitor (or perhaps I should say "traitour" *s*).

Carrie in PA
09-11-2006, 04:59 AM
Ahhh, I am surrounded by like-minded individuals! How refreshing!!! Yesterday, while waiting for our appetizers, my mom and I passed the time by adding apostrophes to our placemats.

One of my favorite typos was in a full color, glossy catalog from a company that makes shirts. Well, I assume they meant shirts. They left out the "r". On the FRONT page. "We offer personalized mugs, t-shits and mouse pads!" Ummmm.... all righty then!

veinglory
09-11-2006, 05:10 AM
I can't help chiming in on "judgement". I don't think this is an older spelling--it's just one that MSWord spell checker has chosen to exclude for no good reason. Fight the power.

Silver King
09-11-2006, 05:16 AM
"We offer personalized mugs, t-shits
Are you sure that wasn't spelled intentionally? Perhaps the printing company is offering a new service that hasn't been tried yet, printing ads on biodegradable surfaces which are flushed with opportunity.

Oh, and Carrie, since it's the first official week of the NFL season, do I detect a Rams fan snuggling up to a Ravens fan in your avatar? If so, I know you're both happy with today's results. (My Bucs got pecked to death by Ray Lewis...)

kikonie
09-11-2006, 06:22 AM
I have no idea why schools in Oregon would have preferred the British spelling.

--Ken

In Canada, a large number of Brits immigrated to British Columbia, the province farthest from the British Isles, and had a very large influence. Anyway, I wonder if they liked the coastal region so much that they also took up residence in Washington and Oregon.

Carrie in PA
09-11-2006, 09:06 PM
Oh, and Carrie, since it's the first official week of the NFL season, do I detect a Rams fan snuggling up to a Ravens fan in your avatar? If so, I know you're both happy with today's results. (My Bucs got pecked to death by Ray Lewis...)

Quite the happy football weekend at our house!!! DH is a Colts fan, his boys won, too. DS just kind of goes with the wind. His favorite team changes hourly. LOL

My Ravens are looking good! They were horrible last year, so my fingers are crossed that they make it to playoffs! That would rock. :D

Sorry about your Bucs. Well, not really. :roll:

Silver King
09-11-2006, 09:14 PM
Sorry about your Bucs. Well, not really. :roll:
My heart was with the Bucs, but my money sided with the Ravens, so it wasn't a TOTAL loss!

Soccer Mom
09-11-2006, 09:25 PM
:( Feeling your pain Silverking. I'm a Cowboy fan. 'Nuff said.


ETA: Oops, misplaced sympathy. Carrie is the happy one here.

Carrie in PA
09-11-2006, 09:28 PM
My heart was with the Bucs, but my money sided with the Ravens, so it wasn't a TOTAL loss!

:ROFL: Good call!

Mags
09-11-2006, 10:33 PM
Know what drives me nuts? The use of "I" or "myself" as an object pronoun, for instance, "When you are finished, give the book to Joe or I." I find it especially cringe-worthy when supposedly well-educated people use it. I hear it on a lot of news broadcasts as well.

SeanDSchaffer
09-11-2006, 11:38 PM
I just saw, a moment ago, a post on another part of AW where someone refered to an Espresso as an "Expresso". I see or hear it all the time. That one has never really set well with me, because there is no 'x' in the real word, "Espresso".

kikonie
09-12-2006, 01:07 AM
Hi,

I just happen to be working on a coffee study for the National Coffee Association USA and another for the Coffee Association of Canada, and both spellings are correct.

SeanDSchaffer
09-12-2006, 01:20 AM
Hi,

I just happen to be working on a coffee study for the National Coffee Association USA and another for the Coffee Association of Canada, and both spellings are correct.


You're kidding me! Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun! I thought for certain that "Expresso" was wrong.

You learn something new every day. Cool.
:)

kikonie
09-12-2006, 01:22 AM
Cool is how well you took the info

Soccer Mom
09-12-2006, 02:08 AM
You're kidding me! Well, I'll be a son-of-a-gun! I thought for certain that "Expresso" was wrong.

You learn something new every day. Cool.
:)

That's why I drink Maxwell House. Spelled like it sounds. :D

ResearchGuy
09-12-2006, 03:27 AM
...They left out the "r". On the FRONT page. "We offer personalized mugs, t-shits and mouse pads!" Ummmm.... all righty then!
I once received an official communication from what is abbreviated CalPERS, in which the writer referred to it as the California Pubic Employees Retirement System. That probably went to tens of thousands of people. Public employees, all.

-Ken

Carrie in PA
09-12-2006, 03:59 AM
I once received an official communication from what is abbreviated CalPERS, in which the writer referred to it as the California Pubic Employees Retirement System. That probably went to tens of thousands of people. Public employees, all.

-Ken

BUWAHAHAHA!!!!

DamaNegra
09-12-2006, 07:39 AM
I once grabbed a paper written by some calssmates. The taecher had given them a 75. Even if I only took away one point per mistake, their final grade (according to me) should've been 23. Of course, they hated me for it. But really, "She tolled me that I was wrong." I should have failed them just for that.

Silver King
09-12-2006, 07:46 AM
"She tolled me that I was wrong." I should have failed them just for that.
Dama, maybe they meant they were being charged (tolled) for mistakes.;)

shelerella
09-12-2006, 10:59 PM
Ok..I have to know..and yes I know I should be ashamed of myself....But this has been driving me crazy...When using the apostrophe on a name or thing ending with s do you add another s or do you just leave the apostrophe hanging. For example Mr. Savons's OR Mr. Savons' ??? I swear I remember being taught in school that the latter is the correct one, but I know I have read books where the former is seen..Please tell me what to do...I might have a lot of editing to do...

DamaNegra
09-12-2006, 11:31 PM
Dama, maybe they meant they were being charged (tolled) for mistakes.;)

The funny thing is that about a week or so later, I did a presentation for our Human Relations class, and we proyected it for the whole classroom. And there it was, in huge letters: Noble Prize of Piece.

Ooooooo did they let me have it.

ResearchGuy
09-13-2006, 01:52 AM
Ok..I have to know..and yes I know I should be ashamed of myself....But this has been driving me crazy...When using the apostrophe on a name or thing ending with s do you add another s or do you just leave the apostrophe hanging. For example Mr. Savons's OR Mr. Savons' ??? I swear I remember being taught in school that the latter is the correct one, but I know I have read books where the former is seen..Please tell me what to do...I might have a lot of editing to do...
Generally, the second s is omitted -- but it depends. Speak the sentence out loud. Do you add that second s or not?

I am going to Bob Williams's house for dinner. That needs (and I think most people would pronounce) the added s, and hence that s belongs in the written form. Else, it sounds like the speaker is going to the house of Bob William (Bob William's house).

Or, to take a familar example: Let us pray in Jesus' name. I suspect that few add the second s there because Jesus's is awkward to pronounce and the possessive form is clear from context without it.

So, there you have it. Like most elementary school English rules, what you learned is correct as far as it goes, but it does not cover the entire question. Reasonable people will make different choices in specific cases. House style, where it exists, may determine choice. Finally, it is desirable to be consistent in such usages.

--Ken

Bk_30
09-13-2006, 04:20 AM
so for the double (s) sound I could use a z? ow, ow, stop throwing things at me! it was a joke.

Speed
09-13-2006, 07:25 AM
Hi,

I just happen to be working on a coffee study for the National Coffee Association USA and another for the Coffee Association of Canada, and both spellings are correct.No. "Expresso" is just a sufficiently common misspelling that people have started giving up on correcting it. The same thing happened with "supercede", which again is just a very common misspelling. It should be "espresso" and "supersede", not that anyone remembers that anymore.

Medievalist
09-13-2006, 07:56 AM
The same thing happened with "supercede", which again is just a very common misspelling. It should be "espresso" and "supersede", not that anyone remembers that anymore.

Hey!

I said I was sorry! I apologized right away . . ..

:cry:

kikonie
09-13-2006, 08:06 AM
No. "Expresso" is just a sufficiently common misspelling that people have started giving up on correcting it. The same thing happened with "supercede", which again is just a very common misspelling. It should be "espresso" and "supersede", not that anyone remembers that anymore.

Damn! That's the last time I trust the Oxford Illustrated Dictionary or those two "coffee" associations.

SeanDSchaffer
09-13-2006, 08:36 AM
Damn! That's the last time I trust the Oxford Illustrated Dictionary or those two "coffee" associations.


I don't know about the coffee associations, but I do know the dictionary can be wrong, at least compared to what things were like a few years ago.

For example, when I was a child, the word 'Ain't' was not a word. I just looked up that non-word in my 2004 Merriam-Webster dictionary. Guess what? It was there, with several different definitions.

Saint Fool
09-13-2006, 06:33 PM
Went walking at the WNC Arboretum a few days ago, and there was a sign warning that "bears have been sited here" complete with the bold and italics.

Although now it conjures up an image of the Arboretum gardners moving a bemused black bear back and forth until they found the perfect spot for it, at the time it made me moan. I gave the information desk a spelling correction and can only hope that they made it. At least they didn't "cite" it.

Bk_30
09-13-2006, 08:17 PM
I was floored the day I told my son "ain't isn't a word" and he brought me the dictionary. I told him fine they include it now, but if you use it in a sentence I'm still going to bean you.

Wordworm
09-13-2006, 08:36 PM
Went walking at the WNC Arboretum a few days ago, and there was a sign warning that "bears have been sited here" complete with the bold and italics.

Although now it conjures up an image of the Arboretum gardners moving a bemused black bear back and forth until they found the perfect spot for it, at the time it made me moan. I gave the information desk a spelling correction and can only hope that they made it. At least they didn't "cite" it.
No, you misunderstood completely, Fool. They were referring to the imbibing habits of certain of your citizens in those particular areas of the Arboretum by warning that "beers have been sited here".

You must be in a dry county, or you would have seen this right away.

kikonie
09-14-2006, 09:17 AM
I don't know about the coffee associations, but I do know the dictionary can be wrong, at least compared to what things were like a few years ago.

For example, when I was a child, the word 'Ain't' was not a word. I just looked up that non-word in my 2004 Merriam-Webster dictionary. Guess what? It was there, with several different definitions.

Seannie, this dictionary is a 1985 edition, and, er, it's .... ummm, Oxford.

madcow
09-14-2006, 03:52 PM
Glad to make contact with some other saddos (saddoes?) - erm, I mean obsessive perfectionists like me. (Not that I live up to it, but I try...)

Tracy
09-14-2006, 06:15 PM
Know what drives me nuts? The use of "I" or "myself" as an object pronoun, for instance, "When you are finished, give the book to Joe or I." I find it especially cringe-worthy when supposedly well-educated people use it. I hear it on a lot of news broadcasts as well.

TOTALLY!!!!

I think it's considered quite posh to say 'Joe or I', in the same way as sticking your little finger out when you drink tea is posh - i.e. not at all if you realised, but just really pretentious.

And Wordworm - thanks for the spelling correction for 'concensus/consensus', I had to laugh. Serves me right!

ResearchGuy
09-14-2006, 06:47 PM
...For example, when I was a child, the word 'Ain't' was not a word. I just looked up that non-word in my 2004 Merriam-Webster dictionary. Guess what? It was there, with several different definitions.
Sean, I was a child a long time before you were. "Ain't" was a word then -- generally considered nonstandard, but nonetheless an English word.

Consider this, from the 1959 printing of the 1953 edition of Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, College Edition (World Publishing Company--this is the dictionary of which my father was etymological editor for decades):

"ain't . . . was formerly standard for am not and is still defended by some authorities as a proper contraction for am not in interrogative constructions, as I'm going too, ain't I?"

The Oxford English Dictionary cites usages of the word as far back as 1778.

Trust me on this, Sean, although your teachers frowned on "ain't" as dialect or nonstandard English, it has been a word for a very, very long time. That a word is dialect, regional, or otherwise nonstandard does NOT mean that it is not a word -- nor are the parochial prejudices of school teachers definitive of the language.

Now, we could, I suppose, get into the general question of how words and their definitions get into dictionaries (primarily through scouring of the written and spoken language for examples, which are compiled by editors and evaluated according to house standards) and of standards for acceptance of a word or usage (varying from strict to lax, a subject of debates for a very long time). But let's not.

The general lesson is that careful writers will have several varied dictionaries and will refer to them. They will also read widely and well with an eye on how the language is used. They will not settle for distant recollections of what they learned from poorly educated and usually not well-read school teachers.

--Ken

Nakhlasmoke
09-14-2006, 06:49 PM
..
Or, to take a familar example: Let us pray in Jesus' name. I suspect that few add the second s there because Jesus's is awkward to pronounce and the possessive form is clear from context without it.

...
--Ken

This is just what I was taught, and I'm not American so make of it what you will. Words ending in s will get 's, *unless* the name is one from antiquity; names like Moses, Jesus, and so on.

ResearchGuy
09-14-2006, 07:04 PM
This is just what I was taught, and I'm not American so make of it what you will. Words ending in s will get 's, *unless* the name is one from antiquity; names like Moses, Jesus, and so on.
Perhaps (and see below). I would still argue that pronunciation is more important, at least in some specific cases. If the sound is awkward and difficult, it will lose out.

By the way, I see in Bryan Garner's Dictionary of Modern American Usage that "the AP Stylebook (6th edition, 1996) calls for nothing more than an apostrophe if the word already ends in -s . . . ." He adds, "most authorities who are not journalists demand the final -s as well."

This appears to be another case where AP sets a standard for journalists that differs from generally preferred use in other contexts. (The serial comma may be the most notorious example.)

I should add, Nakhlasmoke, that Garner endorses your view regarding Biblical and classical names. He also notes the exception for words that are plurals ending in an s. For example, the possessive of General Motors is General Motors' -- not General Motors's.

--Ken

Nakhlasmoke
09-14-2006, 08:12 PM
ResearchGuy, I'm pretty certain that no matter how we choose to write it, publishers will change it to house style. :)

ResearchGuy
09-15-2006, 07:46 AM
ResearchGuy, I'm pretty certain that no matter how we choose to write it, publishers will change it to house style. :)
Yeah, ain't THAT the truth! <giggle> http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Medievalist
09-17-2006, 09:13 PM
For example, when I was a child, the word 'Ain't' was not a word. I just looked up that non-word in my 2004 Merriam-Webster dictionary. Guess what? It was there, with several different definitions.

It was a word, and the seventeen hundreds, was considered colloquial and informal, but nonetheless acceptable English.

Del
10-19-2006, 04:29 AM
I have recommended reading for all of you proof-aholics.

Eats, Shoots & Leaves by Lynne Truss

You will recognize it from the cover art of the panda on the ladder (attempting to remove the comma).

Read it for the chuckles (it is full of what you speak) and then give it to someone who needs it.

Del
10-19-2006, 04:38 AM
It was a word, and the seventeen hundreds, was considered colloquial and informal, but nonetheless acceptable English.


I once found ax in a popular dictionary with one definition as "to inquire".

http://messenger.msn.com/MMM2006-04-19_17.00/Resource/emoticons/confused_smile.gif Don't ax me.

BardSkye
10-19-2006, 08:35 AM
You did the right thing, Tracy. Sounds like a perfectly normal response to a mistake you felt compelled to correct, as long as you didn't place the apostrophe after the "es."

Now if you start carrying a ladder around town and climbing to dangerous heights to fix spelling errors on business signs, then I'd say you should seek help for your compulsion.

I confess to having once corrected the graffiti in a bus shelter. Bad enough having graffiti; they could at least spell it right. :e2paperba

Silver King
10-19-2006, 08:54 AM
Ha! Bard, I'd completely forgotten about this thread. I'm so glad you brought it up to emphasize the need to correct grammar in all forms and in all places at any time. Your corrections in public venues are to be commended.:Thumbs:

SeanDSchaffer
10-19-2006, 04:54 PM
It was a word, and the seventeen hundreds, was considered colloquial and informal, but nonetheless acceptable English.


Interesting. All these years I thought it was not a word because my second grade teacher told me it wasn't.

Well, I'm off to find some other way of putting my foot in my mouth...
:gone: