POD Promotion and Best Case Scenarios

Heath · Aug 29, 2006

This may sound a bit strange, but like all of you, I'd love my book to become a blockbuster hit. I'm new to the whole business side of this, although I've read several books. It appears to me that there are the following methods to getting published:

1 - Get an agent
2 - Get a publisher
3 - Go to a small press or
4 - Do vanity or POD publishing

As for 1, agents want you to have been published or have a publisher. As for 2, publishers want you to have an agent. As for 3, the likelihood of being taken seriously enough to produce a major hit are low. It seems like you have to be good AND get lucky for any of these to work.

So here is my strange question:

If you do a POD such as AuthorHouse, which I've been considering, how much money would it take (assuming your book was halfway decent) to make sure it is successful? Has anyone ever done this successfully?

I was thinking of throwing $10k to $15k into the package and promotions and working on getting it out there, maybe up to $40k or $50k, but I don't want to waste my time and money. Does anyone know of a success story, regardless of financial cost?

Unimportant · Aug 29, 2006

I don't think there's any amount of money that can make sure a book will become a blockbuster. Throwing money at a book that has a very high potential of being a blockbuster will help, but if the potential isn't there no amount of money will make it happen. And if a book can't attract the interest of a single agent, publisher, or small press, the likelihood of the book having the potential to even be a midlister is pretty low.

Agents take on new authors all the time. So do publishers.

Try to sell your book through traditional methods. If that doesn't work, write another book.

my $0.02

Heath · Aug 29, 2006

query

We have to start with the premise that it is a good book just under the radar of the agents. After all, if they're getting 250 queries a week, the process could take a long, long time through traditional methods, assuming that they didn't just fight with their spouse before reading your query.

So that said, are there success stories out there? Is it good to do POD like AuthorHouse in order to attract the attention of an agent/publisher? If you can put $10k into it and sell 10,000 copies, wouldn't that attract some attention?

Wordworm · Aug 29, 2006

Have you read up on AuthorHouse in Bewares and Background Checks? There are extensive discussions in there.

Having said that, I have also been contemplating the pros and cons of taking the sort of approach you're thinking about. However, one thing is very clear to me. Every single one of the Vanity publishers, Lulu included (a fine Canadian upstart, I might add, and owned by Hamiltonian Bob Young, who made a fortune with Red Hat) works on the same basis: extremely healthy margin off the top (on the cost of production) plus percentage of sales off the bottom. At the prices they charge per book (even in volume), you almost couldn't afford to have a bestseller. I am quite familiar with printing costs, and I can see that these outfits cover themselves backwards and forwards.

huw · Aug 29, 2006

You say that you don't want to waste your time and money...I would advise you only to pursue vanity POD publishing backed by a big promotion budget if that requirement is, shall we say, flexible.

Other than that, I agree with Woodworm. Lulu is probably the best of the bunch, but even they have a print pricing model that makes the books seem unaffordable by the time they're listed on Amazon. You'd think there would be a niche for vanity PODs to make their money in higher up-front fees while doing the printing at close to cost, but I'm not familiar with any such outfits. Maybe they're out there, if you look hard enough. Come to think of it, with the sort of figures you're mentioning you could probably start one of your own

ResearchGuy · Aug 29, 2006

Heath said:
...I was thinking of throwing $10k to $15k into the package and promotions and working on getting it out there, maybe up to $40k or $50k, but I don't want to waste my time and money. Does anyone know of a success story, regardless of financial cost?

Do not put one dime more into the project than you can cheerfully afford to lose.

Really.

I am a supporter of independent publishing, self-publishing, and even POD publishing, when used for the right reasons and with a full understanding of the limitations, and even I am very concerned about what you propose. You cannot promote a POD book into success. Some folks have modest local success when they have a local hook (local history, say, or an anthology of columns by a popular local newspaper columnist -- maybe). But that is about the limit for a POD. The economics do not work, distribution is nonexistent, reviews are rare, at best. Very hard row to hoe.

Allow me to suggest that you consider (1) noodling around in traditional commercial routes (query agents and publishers--after carefully studying how to write a query and how to write a book proposal) and only then, if that is not successful (2) go small-scale with a low-cost POD that has a good reputation, and work your specific market niche. Not all PODs are the same.

Do NOT sink thousands or tens of thousands of dollars into the endeavor unless you are rich and will not miss the money. (But if you are that rich, you can probably wheedle a legitimate agent or publisher into being interested. IF your manuscript is adequate.)

I have seen some high-quality POD books from Avantine Press, in San Diego. Up-front costs are reasonable AND pricing is exceptionally good by POD standards, allowing normal bookstore discounts from retail. Lulu.com offers free and low-cost options. But only those who make a full-time, serious business of it can make a living with self-published books, and I do not know anyone who has had meaningful success, by any measure, with a POD (and I do know a lot of folks who have used the POD route as well as folks who have done real self-publishing).

You will NOT sell 10,000 copies of any POD. Period. No matter how hard or expensively you promote it. You might do well to sell 100.

The most relentless (and full time, experienced, professional) self-publisher I know--buys print runs in the thousands, not POD, and has sold thousands of copies of some of his books. He is a rare exception, writes for a regional audience, and managed to place 8,000 copies of one title in Costco. Nearly all of them sold. Rare, rare, rare. And his printing costs are probably about a buck and a half a copy for books priced at $12.95 and that he sells at signings for $10. Not gonna happen with POD, and he makes his writing and publishing his full-time business. (He probably spends very little on promotion, by the way. Lots of person-to-person time, though.)

--Ken

Heath · Aug 29, 2006

POD

My idea was to use marketing such as Google or Yahoo! I imagine if enough people saw a banner ad or similar marketing, it would spur sales, and then word of mouth would do the rest. Consumers don't really care where they get their product (publishing house or POD), as long as they get the quality they want.

*Dreaming, perhaps, but hopefully at least would break even*

And the real money is to be made through film options. I want to be able to show them an adaptation screenplay "based on my novel."

Anyone aware of anything like this actually succeeding? The traditional route, to me, puts too much power and control in the hands of others, takes forever, and ends up in a crap shoot. Maybe I'm just a little too much like George Lucas...

ResearchGuy · Aug 29, 2006

Heath said:
My idea was to use marketing such as Google or Yahoo! I imagine if enough people saw a banner ad or similar marketing, it would spur sales, and then word of mouth would do the rest....

How many books have you bought that way? Extrapolate.

--Ken

Anthony Ravenscroft · Aug 29, 2006

In business sales, there's an old truism. Sometimes you have to BS the client. Once in a while, you have to BS your boss. But when you start to BS yourself, it's time to get out of the game.

Many people who choose the self-pub route claim they're fully prepared to devote their lives to promotion & marketing & one-to-one sales, but the problem is that they're fundamentally lazy. (In this usage, "deathly afraid of potential criticism" falls under "lazy.") They have no idea what's involved in the job, & therefore figure it's easy.

Then there's the "if you build it, they will come" mentality, encouraged by Yahoo & Google & various marketing schemes.

To a certain extent, it's true... if you're writing a nonfiction book to an underserved & active niche, or you've already got 10,000 people per day reading your blog. Otherwise, it's nonsense. (This is especially true for fiction.)

Heath, you can hire a freelancer to put your book into the right .pdf layout, & pay a few hundred bucks to a credible cover designer, then send the whole set of files off to a printing company, who'll run off at least 1,500 for maybe $3/unit, so call it roughly $5,000 after setup costs & shipping.

First, you might want to prove to yourself that you actually really believe in your book & its potential, & collect at least 100 rejections before taking an alternative route.

citymouse · Aug 30, 2006

Email me privately about Author House.

james1611 · Aug 30, 2006

Heath said:
This may sound a bit strange, but like all of you, I'd love my book to become a blockbuster hit. I'm new to the whole business side of this, although I've read several books. It appears to me that there are the following methods to getting published:

1 - Get an agent
2 - Get a publisher
3 - Go to a small press or
4 - Do vanity or POD publishing

As for 1, agents want you to have been published or have a publisher. As for 2, publishers want you to have an agent. As for 3, the likelihood of being taken seriously enough to produce a major hit are low. It seems like you have to be good AND get lucky for any of these to work.

So here is my strange question:

If you do a POD such as AuthorHouse, which I've been considering, how much money would it take (assuming your book was halfway decent) to make sure it is successful? Has anyone ever done this successfully?

I was thinking of throwing $10k to $15k into the package and promotions and working on getting it out there, maybe up to $40k or $50k, but I don't want to waste my time and money. Does anyone know of a success story, regardless of financial cost?

If you've got 50k to throw away, why worry about making your book a blockbuster, you sound like your doing fine already!

Seriously, no amount of advertising can make a book that people aren't interested in, into a blockbuster. Advertising lets people know about the book, it doesn't mean people will like it.

--James

PODLINGMASTER · Aug 30, 2006

Except Lucas was making a movie

Heath said:
My idea was to use marketing such as Google or Yahoo! I imagine if enough people saw a banner ad or similar marketing, it would spur sales, and then word of mouth would do the rest. Consumers don't really care where they get their product (publishing house or POD), as long as they get the quality they want.

*Dreaming, perhaps, but hopefully at least would break even*

And the real money is to be made through film options. I want to be able to show them an adaptation screenplay "based on my novel."

Anyone aware of anything like this actually succeeding? The traditional route, to me, puts too much power and control in the hands of others, takes forever, and ends up in a crap shoot. Maybe I'm just a little too much like George Lucas...

Lucas made a movie with studio backing. now nobody thought it would be what Star Wars has become, but it played to the public. Vanity books generally go unnoticed by the public, of course many others do as well.

As for google and Yahoo, I assume you are referring to their programs that charge per click to your site and so forth? That still doesn't mean anyone will like the book; even if they know about it.

It sounds like you need to have a really great book and then take the time to shop it around some. If its that good then it might get Publisher or Agent attention. If it falls outside the bounds of what they normally publish then a smaller press might pick it up. Then you are free to throw as much money at the project as you like, but it takes more than money to create GOOD WORD OF MOUTH.

You could spend 10k on advertising and people hate the book and spread that word of mouth instead! Goodbye 10k!

If you really intend on self publishing, You might try starting your own small press, going through Lightning Source and Ingram directly. You can purchase your own ISBN#'s in blocks of 10 for a few hundred dollars, get a premium cover and pay for good editing and so forth. Then you are running your own business that you may want to bring other authors works into. This might give you more eggs in your basket to depend on. Have your book reviewed and see what responses you get back from them.
Many book reviewers will review self published titles in addition to others. We do it at P.O.D.LINGS and I'm aware of several others including Pod People and Pod-dy Mouth.
See what reaction you get to your blockbuster in waiting from these kinds of sites and people before wasting big money on a book no one will read anyway.

My 2 cents,
Podlingmaster

Heath · Aug 30, 2006

pod

Thanks for your feedback. I was kind of looking for success stories as a sort of "how to" in making POD or self-publishing successful, such as The Celestine Prophecy and Eragon. Everyone here seems to think that an agent or publisher is the only way to go to be really successful, and that good books don't get by their radar. However, that's very contrary to the books I've read, which recommend a very proactive approach and that many good books really are outside their radar because they see so many queries a week.

Now, I've only received 5 rejections so far, and none have bothered to look at the manuscript. I'm going to keep trying, but I'm also making long term plans because an agent and publisher don't catch every good book that comes their way. I recall Stephen R. Donaldson saying that he'd been rejected about 47 times and then accepted by the first publisher he originally submitted to.

Heath · Aug 30, 2006

money

And for those who think that money is everything...it's not. I'm considered a very successful attorney making top dollar at the top firm in the world, but I also have a very stressful life and had my first heart attack at the age of 34. That's when I decided it was time to pursue my lifelong dream, but you can see why I may not have the patience for editors and agents.

maestrowork · Aug 30, 2006

Are you willing to spend most of your waking hours promoting and actually selling your books? Remember, POD books don't get sold in stores. So your only venues are web, online stores, and out of your own car trunk. Are you willing and able to push it? Even then, the chances of it being a "mega hit" is abysmal. You hear stories like Richard Paul Evans simply because it's so rare (and because he promoted and sold his books full-time).

If you think a small press with limited distribution and budget is not a way to go because you want your book to be a blockbuster... what makes you think AuthorHouse can do that for you? They have even LESS ability to make it happen.

If you have 50K to spend, why not just self-publish and make yourself a publisher? That way, you have a better chance to a) get distribution and b) get your book reviewed and into book stores.

Lauri B · Aug 30, 2006

If your book isn't good enough to be picked up by a mainstream publisher, no amount of your own money is going to turn it into a blockbuster. Don't waste your money. Spend the time to write a really good book and go from there.

PODLINGMASTER · Aug 30, 2006

Unfortunately...

Heath said:
Thanks for your feedback. I was kind of looking for success stories as a sort of "how to" in making POD or self-publishing successful, such as The Celestine Prophecy and Eragon. Everyone here seems to think that an agent or publisher is the only way to go to be really successful, and that good books don't get by their radar. However, that's very contrary to the books I've read, which recommend a very proactive approach and that many good books really are outside their radar because they see so many queries a week.

Now, I've only received 5 rejections so far, and none have bothered to look at the manuscript. I'm going to keep trying, but I'm also making long term plans because an agent and publisher don't catch every good book that comes their way. I recall Stephen R. Donaldson saying that he'd been rejected about 47 times and then accepted by the first publisher he originally submitted to.

Unfortunately, the reason you aren't recieving the kind of feedback you wanted is because those extreme success stories are few and far between.
Having heard that you are a successful man, just looking to write a book for seeing a dream come true...I would say, go with previous advice to start your own small press. You have the money to do it apparently and you could actually afford to spend the money on a limited print run for your book and then try to get some distribution set up and of course be willing to accept returns. all these things and a good solid book may very well get you into bookstores.
If you're really not concerned about the money then why does it have to be a blockbuster??...If you just want to write and publish a book then you apparently have the financial resources to make that happen, by starting your own small press publisher.

Podlingmaster

ResearchGuy · Aug 30, 2006

Nomad said:
If your book isn't good enough to be picked up by a mainstream publisher, no amount of your own money is going to turn it into a blockbuster. ....

Tell that to Kevin Trudeau (Natural Cures They Don't Want You To Know About). Self-published blockbuster. Deceptive piece of crap. But then, not everyone is going to sink huge money into infomercials to sell a book or tie the book to a money-machine website. And the chance of anything like that working for a novel is about as big as the chance of the Empire State Building vanishing and reappearing on Mars an instant later.

Anyway, having a good book manuscript is neither a sufficient nor always a necessary condition to mainstream publication. That is not a popular view here, I understand.

--Ken

ResearchGuy · Aug 30, 2006

maestrowork said:
...If you have 50K to spend, why not just self-publish and make yourself a publisher? That way, you have a better chance to a) get distribution and b) get your book reviewed and into book stores.

Bingo. A few dollars of that money could pay for a good book on self-publishing, for starters (Tom & Marilyn Ross's, or Dan Poynter's) -- and maybe a couple of classes or seminars in publishing. Some would cover editing, book design, graphics--and advance reader copies for reviewers. Some would pay for a cost-effective print run (be ready to store a few thousand copies in the garage ...) Some would pay for promotional efforts. AND because the book would probably cost only a dollar or two per copy to print in quantity, pricing and discount structure can make sense.

--Ken

Unimportant · Aug 30, 2006

>My idea was to use marketing such as Google or >Yahoo! I imagine if enough people saw a banner ad or >similar marketing, it would spur sales, and then word >of mouth would do the rest.
Publish America, a vanity publisher, has eleven thousand or so 'happy authors'. Many of them have poured tons of money into promoting their book and trying to create word-of-mouth. Not one has gone on to blockbuster success, or even midlister success.

No one predicted Harry Potter. Not even the best editor or publisher can =guarantee= a book will become a blockbuster. If they could, obviously, they'd only buy those books and make zillions, instead of having a few blockbusters carry all those other just-breaking-even books.

>We have to start with the premise that it is a good >book just under the radar of the agents.
Every author believes that about their book. The reason you see so few success stories from non-traditional publishing routes is that the vast majority of those authors are wrong about the quality of their books. Most of them just plain aren't good enough. An awful lot of them are just plain crap. Not having seen your book, I can't judge. All I can say is that it's very possible =your= assessment of the book is not unbiased. Have you sought honest, unbiased feedback on your book via a workshop or critique group?

>Consumers don't really care where they get their >product (publishing house or POD), as long as they get >the quality they want.
True, but they =do= want quality. They buy books in bookstores because, in their experience, this equates to quality, just as they buy food in the grocery store for the same reason. Buying a taco off the guy selling them out of the boot of his car, and getting norovirus, will ensure they never shop anywhere but Kroger's again. Since most vanity published books are pretty bad, most people don't ever buy more than one. The potential buying pool for such books continually shrinks.

>And the real money is to be made through film >options.

Yes.

How many books/novellas get written and submitted to publishers each year? Out of these, what proportion get accepted and published? Out of =those=, what proportion get made into movies? You're looking at Lotto odds.

It's a poor gamble if you're looking for a way to replace the salary of a high powered lawyer.

>Anyone aware of anything like this actually >succeeding?
I know of one guy, E Lynn Harris (?) who self published, was hugely active in hand selling his books in everything from coffee shops to hair salons, and got picked up by a big publisher and went on to huge success.

That's the only one I can think of.

I think he was writing damned good books that most publishers thought would appeal to too small of a market -- gay/bi black men. Turned out there was a bigger market than anticipated, I guess. But those success stories after years of rejection, like this guy and Jean Auel, seem to happen when an author is basically creating an entire new genre. Not for Yet Another Fantasy or Yet Another Murder Mystery kind of books.

Heath · Aug 30, 2006

POD

ResearchGuy said:
Anyway, having a good book manuscript is neither a sufficient nor always a necessary condition to mainstream publication. That is not a popular view here, I understand.

I think this is a good point. If Paris Hilton can publish a book, you know that quality doesn't count as much as money/fame.

As for movie options, most authors who succeed big time make their money through selling options. Now, most of these options are not actually made into movies, but they are still optioned, and the authors still profit from that.

And someone asked why I would want a blockbuster if money wasn't an issue? Why does anyone do what they love? Why does Stephen King continue to write even though he has megabucks? You do it because you want to touch as large an audience as possible. Part of entertainment is getting your name out there, not performing in your backyard for your family.

Anyway, I was thinking along the lines of hiring a PR consultant or someone to do all the work so I don't have to, not spending the time doing the PR work myself, except appearances and the like.

Again, I have to repeat that not every good book gets picked up by an agent or editor, any more than every good singer makes it big in the music industry. And some pretty bad ones get out there. When it is the destiny of your book in your hands, it is best to make things happen...

Unimportant · Aug 30, 2006

Heath, you've got a lot of options.

You can spend your fifty grand printing up mumbletymumble thousands of copies of a mass market paperback with a nice cover. (somebody here can probably point you to the excellent alg's blog post where she breaks down the finances of publishing) Then give them away. Bingo, you've touched a pretty big audience.

You can spend fifty grand starting up a new small press, with your book being the first novel it publishes. Hire an editor, an artist, and a copyeditor. Take returns, get into some decent distribution, and hope you can make back at least some of your investment.

You can spend a few grand on a professional editor or two, to rip through your manuscript and give it a thorough critique. Eminent author and forum member James MacDonald used to do this for a set fee. I think some pro agents like Larson Pomada (sp?) and Ashley Grayson (?) have an editorial service as well. If you're going to pour money into a book, you might as well spend a few thousand up front to ensure it's as good as it possibly can be, to enhance your chances of success.

You can submit your book (as is, or post edit) via traditional routes to publishers and agents. Use any feedback you get; if you get fifty form rejections, assume your book just isn't as good as you think it is, set it aside, and write a better one.

Anthony Ravenscroft · Aug 30, 2006

How to emulate The Celestine Prophecy: quit your job, close your house, spend more than 10 years of your life travelling endlessly back-&-forth across the United States, selling enough books out of your trunk so that you can afford both a motel room & a hot meal.

How to emulate Eragon: get born into a family that owns its own printing company, talk Mom into hiring a professional editor to rewrite your text & "expand" it, talk Dad into hiring a top-line professional designer to assemble the book, spend fifty thousand bucks on promoting it as "this little kid who self-published his book," then sell the rights.

Heath, you're talking as though you play every position on the football team. One moment you've got a great book that's going to sell itself; the next, you're going to have to throw wads of dollar bills with great force.

If you don't have at least a hundred rejections, I doubt you'll be able to actually expend the effort to sell your book.

Yeah, ResearchGuy is right that there's a lot of garbage on the market. So what? Sturgeon's Law once again -- big surprise. We elect crooked politicians because "he sounds like such a nice guy!" or "but at least she belongs to a good church!"

That doesn't mean that garbage is going to sell better just because a "little guy" is throwing it. In fact, that means you're going to have to make sure that you've got something remarkable, & that it's spotless, & that you're already a "known name," & that you've got connections.

You can throw cash at garbage if you want, but I don't see why you'd need anyone's advice. Thus far, you don't appear to want anything except empty support for your ill-conceived fantasy -- your marketing plan, that is, not your book.

Go find a dozen published big-house novelists. Pay them to read your manuscript, & offer them more for a two-hour critique over dinner. Do this with each of them, one-on-one.

Pay attention to what they say, & rework your manuscript. If right now you hear a little voice saying, "I won't need to rework my manuscript! It's utterly perfect!" then quit this site immediately & go do it -- you don't want input anyway.

On the present path, you're going to sell your house & start living in your car so that you can finance the movie, & there's nothing anyone can do to stop you. Mazeltov. But a hundred grand, or even half-million, makes you a small player in Hollywood, & barely midlist in "independent" film. It doesn't sound like you're interested in writing, storytelling, or publishing -- you want to be Spielberg, & everything else is the ground you'll walk upon.

If that's the direction you're going to go, though, my feeling is you'd be better off hiring a ghost, spilling your ideas, then hiring a screenwriter to do a 30-minute cheapie to tour the indie festivals & get funding for development, production, & distribution, not to mention build some buzz.

Wordworm · Aug 30, 2006

Despite all the dire warnings, I'm rooting for you, Heath. I think your attitude about your writing is terrific (although I hope you DO get at least a few reliable people to vet the book for you).

But all in all, I think it's great that you're self-confident enough that you're willing to try to make something happen without going through the established channels. As I read through the posts on this forum, I get rather depressed at how many writers seem to feel like they have no choice but to take what the 'system' delivers. Maybe it's my 60s roots, but I personally like people who are willing to try to buck the system, even if they eventually lose.

I've been trying to figure out a strategy for doing much the same thing as you. When I started my magazine in 1991, I was quickly told how 75% of all magazines didn't make it to their fifth year, and how difficult it was to get advertising, blah blah blah. I managed to make a decent living at it for twelve years, and it's still around today, although my interest in trying to keep it going has now dissipated, but that has more to do with the times and the subject matter.

Anyhoo, all I'm saying is that you're obviously a smart guy who has a dream, and I see no reason for you to abandon it just because a few folks tell you to follow the rules. I'm sure you know that your writing and your subject matter has to be damn good if it's going to sell. But assuming it can fly those hurdles, I say keep looking for ways to fast track its success.

Good luck, and I hope you keep us posted.

(and I'm not even going to hold anything against you for being a lawyer) *g*

Heath · Aug 30, 2006

POD

Thanks, Wordworm. I like your advice best. It seems that most the people here seem to assume that the work must be bad if you're willing to spend money on promoting it and you're having trouble finding an agent, and there is the assumption that finding an agent is the end all, be all of writing success. I too started getting depressed about the possibility of taking a non-traditional route when I started reading these replies.

Personally, I've been looking only at top notch agents and publishers so far, as I begin to lose confidence in them the lower down the list I go (not with their skills, but with their willingness to promote you).

But as for POD, it's seeming like there are far more horror stories than success stories, and they seem to go far beyond just the promotional aspect. Even John Grisham was selling copies of "A Time to Kill" out of the back of his car before "The Firm," and he had a publisher.

POD Promotion and Best Case Scenarios

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