Little-known facts on the Masters of Horror
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I heard poe writes at about a third grade level. Ha ha, just kidding.
The only thing I feel I can contribute to this thread is that I didn't start writing as an adult until my father died, so maybe there is a link there. I write horror as well.
Thanks for the info, I knew nothing about Poe other than the fact that he was a drunk and people would get him liquored up and take him around to vote multiple times, a common practice in his day.
Now that I feel like I know Poe, am I doomed?
The only thing I feel I can contribute to this thread is that I didn't start writing as an adult until my father died, so maybe there is a link there. I write horror as well.
Thanks for the info, I knew nothing about Poe other than the fact that he was a drunk and people would get him liquored up and take him around to vote multiple times, a common practice in his day.
Now that I feel like I know Poe, am I doomed?
No, it's not quite that. I don't know if the two are in any way related. I hadn't written anything since I was a teenager, when I wrote a really abysmal novel and a fair number of short stories. Since then...nothing until one day I started thinking, I should write a novel. Just for fun, something for my friends to read, much like the numerous cd's I create and don't even try to sell. Horror is what I feel like I know best, and the genre in which I'm pretty well equipped. So after the idea kept nagging at me, suddely I got a great idea for the story, and four months later I was done. This was meant to be a one-off thing, but I found myself still wanting to write, so I wrote a few short stories, and my novel is now with beta readers. Then about a month ago, in a dream, I had an idea for another novel, so here I am again, about 17000 words in, and really excited about this project, which is shaping up to be better than the last IMO.darkness said:
The first serious bit of writing with multiple drafts that I undertook was the eulogy for my Dad's funeral, maybe two months before I started on the first novel. Related? I don't know, but something makes me think so.
Sorry for the long post and the complete lack of relevance to the topic.
So, what happened to West Point? I am sure Poe was kicked out of West point for gambling. Of course, that could just be a dream within a dream. 
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Sorry, but you lost me at "The man is a hack" and "Why is America like that?"
(As for the latter, you may want to look at King's foreign sales records, and the number of international posters that frequent his site.)
Many times, writing "up" or "down" simply depends on the intent of an author to reach a target audience. Again, numbers would indicate King found a way to reach his target. A rather broad target, at that, and not all that many fifth graders, I'll wager.
Many novelists do not write to enlighten. They write to entertain. As for style, purple prose is purple prose is purple prose, and the use of a twelve letter word offends the senses when a simple five letter word would suffice.
I also believe that audiences in general prefer to read stories without aid of a thesaurus. Some readers, as evidenced by various posts on this site and others, take great offense when challenged to take up a dictionary in order to understand an unfamiliar word. I once used the word "curmudgeon" in a post on this site. A member took me to task for "making up words" just to confuse the other posters. (No, the site member wasn't joking. In fact, she was downright hostile.)
If you really want to test King's prose, or that of any other author, forget Fry. Select a dozen various paragraphs taken at random from any half dozen books. Then ask a random selection of adult readers if the paragraphs appeared "dumbed down." You also may be surprised at how little difference there is between an eleventh grade reading level and a sixth grade level....according to Fry.
(As for the latter, you may want to look at King's foreign sales records, and the number of international posters that frequent his site.)
Many times, writing "up" or "down" simply depends on the intent of an author to reach a target audience. Again, numbers would indicate King found a way to reach his target. A rather broad target, at that, and not all that many fifth graders, I'll wager.
Many novelists do not write to enlighten. They write to entertain. As for style, purple prose is purple prose is purple prose, and the use of a twelve letter word offends the senses when a simple five letter word would suffice.
I also believe that audiences in general prefer to read stories without aid of a thesaurus. Some readers, as evidenced by various posts on this site and others, take great offense when challenged to take up a dictionary in order to understand an unfamiliar word. I once used the word "curmudgeon" in a post on this site. A member took me to task for "making up words" just to confuse the other posters. (No, the site member wasn't joking. In fact, she was downright hostile.)
If you really want to test King's prose, or that of any other author, forget Fry. Select a dozen various paragraphs taken at random from any half dozen books. Then ask a random selection of adult readers if the paragraphs appeared "dumbed down." You also may be surprised at how little difference there is between an eleventh grade reading level and a sixth grade level....according to Fry.
reading level.
Firs, you can't judge grade level by a sample of work. It takes a full novel to get an accurate assessment.
But you really, really need to learn what grade level means before checking someone's writing. King does NOT aim his wriitng at the fifth grade level. What he does is write as well as possible, and this makes his work fall at from fifth to eighth grade level, which is where nearly all good writing does fall.
Ernest Hemingway wrote at a fourth grade level, and darned near every good writer out there writes at sixth grade or below. King writes at anywhere from five to eight, depending on his work, and you have to do the whole book to know.
The average newspaper in this country, and the rest of the world, is at sixth grade level.
Try doing a reading level test on the greatest writers who even lived, and when you adjust the language use, they almost all some it at fifth or sixth grade level. Even Shakespeare.
You need to learn a whole lot more about what writing at a grade level means. It does not, in any way, mean the writer is writing for fifth graders, or sixth graders, or whatever. He is NOT dumbing his writing down. It merely means that most of the words a writer uses can be read by the average fifth grader. Not necessarily understood, but read. This is a very good thing, and it's the mark of an intelligent, well-read, good writer.
King, like all good writers, simply writes as well as he possibly can, and never even thinks about grade level. But when you write very well, your fiction will almost always fall from fourth to eight grade.
The grade level a writer uses has nothing at all to do with dumbing down. Higher grade level, at least for fiction, does not mean better or smarter writing. The reverse is true. If you find yourself writing fiction at a high grade level, start over. You're writing poorly. Even nonfiction should be at the lowest grade level that allows all the information and necessary jargon to be included.
It is not, never has been, and never will be, fancy words and convoluted sentences (Which are what raises the grade level), that makes for good writing. Just the opposite. Good writing is nearly always written at lower grade levels. Where would you change King's work to make is read at a higher level? Where would you change Twain's work? How about Dickens'?
What about London, or Hemingway, Bradbury, or any one of a thousand other extremely good writers who all write at from fourth to seventh grade levels?
Think about it. Better, try to rewrite King's work so it falls at a higher grade level. If you succeed, you'll find the writing isn't nearly as good.
To use a couple of Twain quotations:
"I notice that you use plain, simple language, short words and brief sentences. That is the way to write English - it is the modern way and the best way. Stick to it; don't let fluff and flowers and verbosity creep in."
And: [SIZE=-1]"The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is the difference between the lightning and the lightning-bug,"
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The right word is almost always the simple word, not the fancy one.
[/SIZE]
darkness said:
Firs, you can't judge grade level by a sample of work. It takes a full novel to get an accurate assessment.
But you really, really need to learn what grade level means before checking someone's writing. King does NOT aim his wriitng at the fifth grade level. What he does is write as well as possible, and this makes his work fall at from fifth to eighth grade level, which is where nearly all good writing does fall.
Ernest Hemingway wrote at a fourth grade level, and darned near every good writer out there writes at sixth grade or below. King writes at anywhere from five to eight, depending on his work, and you have to do the whole book to know.
The average newspaper in this country, and the rest of the world, is at sixth grade level.
Try doing a reading level test on the greatest writers who even lived, and when you adjust the language use, they almost all some it at fifth or sixth grade level. Even Shakespeare.
You need to learn a whole lot more about what writing at a grade level means. It does not, in any way, mean the writer is writing for fifth graders, or sixth graders, or whatever. He is NOT dumbing his writing down. It merely means that most of the words a writer uses can be read by the average fifth grader. Not necessarily understood, but read. This is a very good thing, and it's the mark of an intelligent, well-read, good writer.
King, like all good writers, simply writes as well as he possibly can, and never even thinks about grade level. But when you write very well, your fiction will almost always fall from fourth to eight grade.
The grade level a writer uses has nothing at all to do with dumbing down. Higher grade level, at least for fiction, does not mean better or smarter writing. The reverse is true. If you find yourself writing fiction at a high grade level, start over. You're writing poorly. Even nonfiction should be at the lowest grade level that allows all the information and necessary jargon to be included.
It is not, never has been, and never will be, fancy words and convoluted sentences (Which are what raises the grade level), that makes for good writing. Just the opposite. Good writing is nearly always written at lower grade levels. Where would you change King's work to make is read at a higher level? Where would you change Twain's work? How about Dickens'?
What about London, or Hemingway, Bradbury, or any one of a thousand other extremely good writers who all write at from fourth to seventh grade levels?
Think about it. Better, try to rewrite King's work so it falls at a higher grade level. If you succeed, you'll find the writing isn't nearly as good.
To use a couple of Twain quotations:
"I notice that you use plain, simple language, short words and brief sentences. That is the way to write English - it is the modern way and the best way. Stick to it; don't let fluff and flowers and verbosity creep in."
And: [SIZE=-1]"The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is the difference between the lightning and the lightning-bug,"
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The right word is almost always the simple word, not the fancy one.
[/SIZE]
hack
Oh, and when you call King a hack, you lose all credibility. Once you say this, nothing else you say makes any sense at all.
If you want poetic imagery, read a poem. If you want good writing, good storytelling, good characters, and good dialogue, read King.
darkness said:
Oh, and when you call King a hack, you lose all credibility. Once you say this, nothing else you say makes any sense at all.
If you want poetic imagery, read a poem. If you want good writing, good storytelling, good characters, and good dialogue, read King.
Darkness,
Thank you for clarifying. There are lots of those scales out there. I just found that the SMOG Readability Calculator is online http://webpages.charter.net/ghal/SMOG.html . I pasted my own writing in the calculator and got a score. I encourge anyone to try it--it's kinda fun. I found that the calculator has a major problem. Any passages which include dialogue knock your score down--sometimes more than a letter grade.
As an English teacher, I find these calculators interesting, but I don't take them too seriously. They cannot calculate the depth of an idea and they cannot calculate a student's comprehension. I had students who could read an entire novel yet fail a simple ten-question multiple choice test on it.
Incidentally, I just did a "Fry Graph" on 'Salem's Lot." Picking three random paragraphs, they averaged a readability level closer to eighth grade. You say that "The man is a hack, with very little real craft in poetic imagery." I confess that I have not read his fiction in a while, but I have been reading his 'On Writing' (I'll always remember the day, because it was also the day I learned that Tequila Sunrise was more than just a song) and I like it. In fact, it got me out of a slump. Since I'm relatively new to this forum, I wouldn't mind having you (or anyone else) clarify the comment. Perhaps this should be a new thread, or maybe it's been done to death?
Thanks again.
Thank you for clarifying. There are lots of those scales out there. I just found that the SMOG Readability Calculator is online http://webpages.charter.net/ghal/SMOG.html . I pasted my own writing in the calculator and got a score. I encourge anyone to try it--it's kinda fun. I found that the calculator has a major problem. Any passages which include dialogue knock your score down--sometimes more than a letter grade.
As an English teacher, I find these calculators interesting, but I don't take them too seriously. They cannot calculate the depth of an idea and they cannot calculate a student's comprehension. I had students who could read an entire novel yet fail a simple ten-question multiple choice test on it.
Incidentally, I just did a "Fry Graph" on 'Salem's Lot." Picking three random paragraphs, they averaged a readability level closer to eighth grade. You say that "The man is a hack, with very little real craft in poetic imagery." I confess that I have not read his fiction in a while, but I have been reading his 'On Writing' (I'll always remember the day, because it was also the day I learned that Tequila Sunrise was more than just a song) and I like it. In fact, it got me out of a slump. Since I'm relatively new to this forum, I wouldn't mind having you (or anyone else) clarify the comment. Perhaps this should be a new thread, or maybe it's been done to death?
Thanks again.
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darkness said:
HPL's family fortune declined sharply after his childhood. He was raised by his mother and an aunt, as his father died early in his life. They owned the home, with a scanty inheritance, but that was about it. He married for a few years in his thirties and lived with his wife in New York, but when they seperated he returned to Providence.
When his regular magazine changed ownership, the new publisher didn't like him much at all, and he rarely got anything published in his own name. He turned to doing edits and re-writes of other people's work and out and out ghostwriting to survive.
Much more prolific than his fiction are the long-term and varied correspondences with other writers who became known as the Lovecraft Circle. This included August Derleth among others
"At the time of his birth Lovecraft's family was quite well-to-do, most of the wealth derived from the extensive business interests of Lovecraft's maternal grandfather, Whipple Van Buren Phillips. This prosperity, however, was not to last. The death of Whipple Phillips in 1904 had two calamitous effects: it robbed Lovecraft of one of his major early influences (for with the death of Lovecraft's father in 1898 of paresis the raising of the lad had been entrusted to his mother, his two aunts, and especially his grandfather); moreover, because of the mismanagement of affairs by Phillips's business associates, Phillips's fortune was squandered and the Lovecrafts were forced to move out of their palatial mansion. "
S. T. Joshi http://www.themodernword.com/scriptorium/lovecraft.html
I recommend Joshi as perhaps the most competent biographer of an enigmatic man.
Regards,
Scott
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<<<I do think that it would be very nice if those who deny the statement would start their own thread, but I have little hope of them ever doing so. Perhaps they could call their thread; "Little know facts about the idiot called Darkness.">>>
My apologies. I must have missed your intent. I thought you wanted to initiate some dialogue regarding your various posts. I didn't realize you wanted to address passive readers or only those who agree with you.
Lesson learned.
My apologies. I must have missed your intent. I thought you wanted to initiate some dialogue regarding your various posts. I didn't realize you wanted to address passive readers or only those who agree with you.
Lesson learned.
repeat
I said, when you call King a hack, you lose all credibility, and prove you haven't a clue. As if the silly grade level stuff didn't already prove this. Need it said yet again?
darkness said:
I said, when you call King a hack, you lose all credibility, and prove you haven't a clue. As if the silly grade level stuff didn't already prove this. Need it said yet again?
darkness said:
Yes, you have a right to your opinion, no matter how silly it is. But I assure you I've read far more classics, including classic poets, than you have. I've studied more classic literature, compared more classic writers with cirrent writers, etc. I haven't been doing it for the last few years, but for the last few decades, inside college and out.
And why would any sane person compare poets such as Shelly, Brown, Byron, etc., to a short story and novel writer? This makes zero sense. You're right. There is no comparison. But you're trying to force one regardless.
Frankly, it isn't really possible to compare a Poe with a King in most ways. They were born too many years apart. I suspect you've fallen in love with outdated language and style, think it was somehow better when it's merely dated. Not a bad thing at all, unless you let it affect your judgement of today's writers.
But Let's compare Poe and King in one area where they can actually be placed side by side.
The Fall of the House of Usher--5.74.
I thought this was surely a mistake, so I ran his ten most popular short stories, and came up with an average grade level of 5.40. Geeze, how sad. What a hack. Why on earth would Poe dumb down his writing like that? It is sad. Why was America like that?
In plain fact, a hundred years from now King will be considered the Poe of our day. Or more likely, teh Charles Dickens of our day. Probably considerably better than Poe, in fact. Of all the writers now alive, only a handful will be remembered for a hundred years, and King is right at the very top of the list of those who will be. Of all the things you look at to determine the probablbility of a writer lasting a hundred years or more, King has them all in his favor.
Hack, my a**.
Your thread heading was 'facts' so perhaps you should stick to 'facts' and if you want to write opinion, start another thread of 'Darkness's opinions'.darkness said:
About the reading scale. I was told by my publisher that the reading score should ultimately fall between 5 -6. Reason being - people like to read fiction for pleasure. After reading difficult text at work, they don't want to come home and read something that requires more work. Not to mention if you wish to appeal to the masses then you stick to that level.
So if you want to write into college level reading levels - write non-fiction.
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darkness: do you have an example of anything on a higher level? I've written some academic papers on the twelfth grade level, but I doubt many people would be interested in them as reading material.
Maybe an example of a fiction writer who doesn't dumb his or her stuff down?
I have a feeling that you tie success and dumbing down together, but I don't think you'll find too many fiction writers who write on a particularly high level. It's the nature of fiction.
Maybe an example of a fiction writer who doesn't dumb his or her stuff down?
I have a feeling that you tie success and dumbing down together, but I don't think you'll find too many fiction writers who write on a particularly high level. It's the nature of fiction.
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