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Steve W
08-21-2006, 10:21 PM
Hi,

I'm not up on the Bible - could someone tell me roughly how this would be interpreted, please? (I think I've grasped the meaning, but want to check.)

“Fallen is Babylon the Great, that hath made all nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

Thanks.
Steve

Gravity
08-21-2006, 10:41 PM
Steve: some attribute that passage to the apostate church at the end of the age, others to the world's economic system. And I'm sure there are other interpretations.

Nateskate
08-21-2006, 11:01 PM
Hi,

I'm not up on the Bible - could someone tell me roughly how this would be interpreted, please? (I think I've grasped the meaning, but want to check.)

“Fallen is Babylon the Great, that hath made all nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

Thanks.
Steve

Babylon was synonymous with confusion (Babel means confusion) Generally the term was used as a metaphor referring to a system (government/religion) that was a substitute for the legitamate. The building of the tower of Babel was somewhat religious, but also secular- man striving to reach heaven in his own power without God. This is something God would never sanction, let alone bless. - it makes man god, and implies God is expendible.

Repressive Communist systems gave us a clue to what this Babylon will look like. They didn't always outlaw religion entirely. Instead they gave a "State sanctioned religion" that compromised sacred beliefs for whatever the state mandated to be true.- you couldn't baptize, certain scriptures were outlawed, members had to swear alligeance to the government and turn in Christians that did not comply- some to execution and others to prison.

That would be considered a Babylonian Religion. Confusion. A mixture that offers a shadow of the real, but it is a compromise devoid of God's blessing.

Steve W
09-01-2006, 11:27 PM
Thanks. This is very useful.


Confusion. A mixture that offers a shadow of the real, but it is a compromise devoid of God's blessing.

So would I be right in thinking the verse and Babylon could equally be applied to a person as well as a state or system?

Thanks again,
Steve

Nateskate
09-03-2006, 12:08 AM
Thanks. This is very useful.



So would I be right in thinking the verse and Babylon could equally be applied to a person as well as a state or system?

Thanks again,
Steve

There are clues throughout the chapter and the book. Revelation 14 refers specifically to a "city".

Elsewhere in Revelation Babylon is referred to as the mother of Harlots.

The actual city of ancient Babylon was in modern day Iraq. The name was then later used as a metaphor/allegory to refer to any place of spiritual compromise. "Mystery Babylon" refers likely refers to a place which is real but an allegory as well. (It is real and a symbol of compromise and confusion)

In Revelation, the saints are warned to "flee" from Babylon or they will share in her judgments. We can't flee a person, but we can flee a place or a system. However, here it seems to refer to a specific place and also a system.

Elsewhere in Revelation "Babylon" is called the "Mother of Harlots". The term "Harlot" is used elsewhere in the Bible to refer to a state of compromise.

And in this sense, you have to look at the contrast of metaphors and allegories. God refers to his people in both the Old and New Testament as a "bride". By contrast, a Harlot would be somewhat of a false substitute for a wife. And again in terms of metaphors, a Harlot looks somewhat like a "wife" but whose motive and purpose is not love or faithfulness. (Compromise)

In the Old Testament Jezebel is a "type" of spiritual harlot. She replaced worship of "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" with "Baal" worship.

Baal- literally means "the lord" or "master"
Beelzebub or Baal Zebub, means "lord of the flies". Baal worship was a form of compromise. Some people actually referred to "God" as "Baal". However it was a watered-down term that allowed anyone to worship anyone and anything they wanted. Baal-Peor...etc. Baal could be twisted and molded into whatever thing you wanted to worship. So, calling "God" Baal became symbolic of idol worship-am telling God who you think he should be, and approaching him to perform magic for a price. (God serves us, not we serve God)

There is a prophesy in the OT where God says, "and my people will no longer call me 'my Baal', not that God isn't their "Lord", but that they would not ignorantly worship him, dictating to God who he is, but would worship him in spirit and in truth for who he really is.

What was wrong with "Baal" worship if it could refer to "God"? The problem was that people were not coming to God on God's terms, trying to discern who God was and the will of God; it turned things around, where men could ascribe to God whatever personality or traits they "wanted God to be"

God kept laying out a trail of Bread Crumbs- I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob"- meaning- If you want to know who I am, what I am about, follow the trail- I'm trying to teach you about my nature and character.

When God identified himself as "I am", God was saying, "Don't pin me into your picture of who I am- don't make me into your image of who you think I am."

Long story/shorter- Babylon is a compromise that leads to confusion. In a sense, the false churches that existed under Communism were forms of "Babylon"- they were compromises where "God" "God's-will" were not the central focus. The state can't dictate who God is. I can't dictate who God is. In fact God won't let anyone tell him who he is. He tells us who he is, and the best we can do is focus on God and try to learn his character qualities from what God chooses to reveal.

Nateskate
09-03-2006, 12:32 AM
In saying "We can't tell God who he is", when God said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob..." this wasn't just a saying, It was not God saying he was the God of Israel only, it was God saying, "I am the God of all" (paraphrase) ...but this is how you find me, through looking at how I reveal myself and my blessings through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

When God met Abraham, he told him that he would bless ALL nations through him, not just one, but he was laying down the bread crumbs to show how he would Bless all nations, and how we could access the blessings. And so, Abraham becomes the starting point of blessing- not divisions or spiritual country clubs. (Not that there isn't a bloodline blessing, but there is also a blessing that transcends this. That those who are not physically related to Abraham can also share in the blessing (all nations) if they realise how to follow the trail.)

God is God of all. So, when he says, "I am the God of Abraham..." if we look at this as a trail of bread crumbs to blessing, we look at how God revealed himself to Abraham. Now repeat this study with Isaac, then with Jacob.

When Isaac told Esau he didn't have any more blessings to give, he was speaking something he couldn't understand. Esau still had a chance to be blessed, but he had to follow the trail of bread crumbs like all the rest of us. His blessing could still come, but through the bread crumbs. Instead of going to his father, he had to look to see what God would do through his brother. (Again this happened again with Joseph- God had a blessing for all the brothers which would come through Joseph- something they didn't understand when their brother told them his dream; and something they fought against until they understood it.)

Jacob didn't get anything from Isaac in terms of great riches...etc. Instead he winds up a used-sheep salesman with little to his name, working for a slave-driver and married to someone he didn't choose.

Jacob didn't have anything until he had his OWN encounter with God, and his OWN revelation with God. And so God is the one that actually blesses Jacob with the promise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob show us that blessing is not about bloodline, although there was a bloodline blessing, but it was more importantly about an encounter with God. Each had to have their own encounter with God because a human father's promise was not enough.

Their are countless metaphors in the way God revealed himself to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, including the most important metaphor "God is my righteousness"

We can learn about the nature of God through them.

Ralyks
09-08-2006, 08:55 PM
Asking what something means in Revelation is asking for 100 different opinions. There are so many views and arguments among Christians as to what anything in Revelation means, and all sorts of terminology to describe the type of Christian based on his/her reading.

Some think this refers to the Fall of Rome, already fulfilled in the past, some to the fall of a future nation, some to the corruption of the Church, etc., etc.