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jbal
08-10-2006, 10:10 PM
well, I guess that says it all. As in "Bob kneeled down", or should it be knelt?

Perks
08-10-2006, 10:12 PM
It's one of those words that appears in the dictionary, but looks wrong most of the time. I'd say go with "knelt".

My-Immortal
08-10-2006, 10:15 PM
well, I guess that says it all. As in "Bob kneeled down", or should it be knelt?

Regardless of 'kneeled' or 'knelt' do you really need the 'down'?

ResearchGuy
08-10-2006, 10:26 PM
well, I guess that says it all. As in "Bob kneeled down", or should it be knelt?
It is a perfectly ordinary word. "Down," however, is surplusage. "Bob kneeled" suffices. HOWEVER, "knelt" is far more common, according to Bryan Garner's Dictionary of Modern American Usage. He labels "kneeled" a "variant." The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language apparently has no preference, although it lists "knelt" first.

Do a Google search of kneeled and then of knelt. FWIW, the latter is far more common (4 million pages compared to 1.2 million).

House style guides might have a preference for one or the other, which would be decisive where applicable.

--Ken

Shadow_Ferret
08-10-2006, 10:29 PM
You can't kneel up, can you?

You know, the dictionary lists both words and I wonder if this is just a personal preference?

The congregation kneeled at the urging of the pastor.

The congregation knelt several times during the service.

Medievalist
08-10-2006, 10:35 PM
Both are OK words; kneeled is a dialect marker, and knelt is far more standard.

Generally, unless an editor tells you otherwise, go with knelt.

jbal
08-11-2006, 12:42 AM
cool, thanks for the advice. A reader pointed this out to me, and I thought it was legit either way but wanted to make sure.
and btw, yeah , the 'down' isn't necessary, and is in fact redundant. it was just a quick example

brainstorm77
08-11-2006, 01:23 AM
knelt would be my choice.

Jamesaritchie
08-11-2006, 06:06 AM
You're into irregular verbs here, and it's more a matter fowhat has bcome accepted than anything else. The "ed" has replaced some "p" endings, but not others. In this case, the "p" form is still the most widely used, so it should be "knelt."

TsukiRyoko
08-11-2006, 06:14 AM
I say when in doubt, use another verb.

triceretops
08-11-2006, 06:28 AM
They assumed a kneeled postion to worship.

They knelt at the altar.

I dunno, I guess they can both work. But kudos to the person who said leave "down" out.

Could you imagine this one: "They knelt down upon their knees."

As opposed to the edited version "They knelt."

Doh!

Tri

TsukiRyoko
08-11-2006, 06:30 AM
They knelt, heads hovering over the ground.

They kneeled etc etc....

Hmmm...

Heartsease
08-11-2006, 07:42 AM
In our neck of the woods we would say kneeled, which as previously mentioned is a matter of dialect, we ain't called Owentuckians for no reason:D

LA

aruna
08-11-2006, 09:32 AM
I don't know. To kneel down to me implies the act of getting down on their knees - there's movement in it. Whereas kneeling is static. They are on their knees. Where's Reph when you need her?
In any case though I would say knelt.

Pat~
08-11-2006, 09:41 AM
I would use "knelt". Or you could say they assumed a kneeling position.

JimmyB27
08-11-2006, 03:58 PM
You can't kneel up, can you?



What if you are laying down, and then move into a kneeling position? Kneeling up, no? :tongue

Jamesaritchie
08-11-2006, 05:40 PM
What if you are laying down, and then move into a kneeling position? Kneeling up, no? :tongue

Nah, you're still merely kneeling.

Jamesaritchie
08-11-2006, 05:41 PM
"Knelt" is an irregular verb. In some cases, the "ed" form has become teh proper choice, but it this case the "t" form is still the right one, so it's "knelt" instead of "kneeled."

CaroGirl
08-11-2006, 06:10 PM
knelt, dealt, smelt, burnt vs. kneeled, dealed, smelled, burned.

All are legitimate words, some are more widely accepted in certain cultural climates and dialects than others. When deciding on the right word, consider your setting, timeframe, and whether you're using it in narrative or dialogue. All these considerations effect word choice.

laurel29
08-11-2006, 06:12 PM
I think it is amusing that I say kneeled probably as often as knelt, but when I look at in print I can't help thinking it is wrong. I would probably use knelt.

(But honestly, when I look at either word long enough I start pronouncing the K in my head and it makes me giggle...I am so easily amused.)

awatkins
08-11-2006, 07:07 PM
You're into irregular verbs here, and it's more a matter fowhat has bcome accepted than anything else. The "ed" has replaced some "p" endings, but not others. In this case, the "p" form is still the most widely used, so it should be "knelt."

I must not have had enough coffee. What is the 'p' form of this word? Forgive me if it's something very simple that I'm just missing right now.

Dekomposer
08-11-2006, 07:18 PM
Kneeled is not a proper word, the correct word is knelt. But it depends on which side of the pond you reside for instance, in the U.S. they say "He dove into the water" when in fact it should be "He dived into the water". A Dove is a friggin bird, so you would expect the phrase to be "he flew into the water" how about if the Dove got cross, he could fly into a rage!

{;0)

Medievalist
08-11-2006, 07:23 PM
If you want the gory details, kneel is a Class 2 irregular verb; there are about fifteen or so verbs that have an -ed past ending that is differerent from the participle form of the past.

Burned burnt, or spoiled spoilt, send sent, smelled smelt.

In Old English there's already a pattern that associates a preference for t or d with a dialect. In modern English, British English generally goes for the t.

In American, well, it depends on the speaker. Most publishers have a list of preferred forms in the House style sheet, and editors will follow it. Authors who don't like the preferred form use a stet and everyone ends up, well, if not happy, at least not morally outraged.

jbal
08-11-2006, 08:26 PM
I must not have had enough coffee. What is the 'p' form of this word? Forgive me if it's something very simple that I'm just missing right now.
Yeah, I missed that too. But if James A. Richie say's there's a "p" form (twice, so it's not a typo), then there is one. Participle maybe? or past?

I really felt like I had this one licked in the first couple of posts. This is truly a great community. Thanks everyone for your input, it's great to have such a broad base of people who are willing to take time out and answer piddling questions from some goofball they don't know (me).

Ken Schneider
08-11-2006, 10:25 PM
I know knelt is.

He knelt down in front of the old king who tried to heft his heavy broadsword to knight him, and instead neutered his nads.

Jamesaritchie
08-12-2006, 12:01 AM
Yeah, I missed that too. But if James A. Richie say's there's a "p" form (twice, so it's not a typo), then there is one. Participle maybe? or past?

I really felt like I had this one licked in the first couple of posts. This is truly a great community. Thanks everyone for your input, it's great to have such a broad base of people who are willing to take time out and answer piddling questions from some goofball they don't know (me).

Oops. Meant "t" form. I'm trying to teach myself touch typing at the ripe old age of fifty-two, and it ain't working. How the heck do you manage to make each finger do what it's supposed to do, when it's supposed to do it, when you're using all ten of the buggers?

I've been typing modified newspaper style almost my entire life, four fingers for the keys and the thumb for the space bar, and touch typing is tough. Even when the right finger presses the right key, it often hits it at the wrong time. Even my thumb gets confused, so instead of "does not," I get "doe snot." Editors tend to laugh at this when I miss it during proofreading.

Instead of "other," I sometimes get "oerth." Sometimes I drift off the home row and can't figure out what the heck I meant to type.

My mind always thinks I've hit the keys in the right order and at the right time, but proofreading is getting to be a nightmare, and if I skip it, as on many forum posts, bad things result.

laurel29
08-12-2006, 12:10 AM
knelt, dealt, smelt, burnt vs. kneeled, dealed, smelled, burned.

All are legitimate words, some are more widely accepted in certain cultural climates and dialects than others. When deciding on the right word, consider your setting, timeframe, and whether you're using it in narrative or dialogue. All these considerations effect word choice.
I was thinking of the examples above and I have a few quick questions. I think of smelt for example, as I smelt something, but I think of smelled as in, something smelled. I burnt a candle, versus a candle burned. Does that make any sense or do I have some weird made up mental rule going on in my head...

Medievalist
08-12-2006, 12:28 AM
The preference for the t form versus the -ed form is sometimes a matter of grammar/usage, but more often than not, it's a matter of dialect.

Jamesaritchie
08-12-2006, 01:00 AM
The preference for the t form versus the -ed form is sometimes a matter of grammar/usage, but more often than not, it's a matter of dialect.

Is it really? I guess that's a good way to look at it. The 'ed" form certainly strikes me as dialect, though it also strikes me as ignorance of grammar and usage, which is probably quite often the same thing.

jbal
08-12-2006, 01:17 AM
smelt to me is something you do with molten metal.
Jameseritchie- you are a smart mofo. Even when I disagree (which is just on TIO anyway), you still sum up a point in the fewest words possible. Where can I get your books without a credit card?

jbal
08-12-2006, 01:18 AM
oops
Jamesaritchie is what I meant

Medievalist
08-12-2006, 01:29 AM
Is it really? I guess that's a good way to look at it. The 'ed" form certainly strikes me as dialect, though it also strikes me as ignorance of grammar and usage, which is probably quite often the same thing.

Sometimes you really do want the past participle form, but I note that Hans Kurath uses the ed/t of kneeled/knelt and smelled/smelt burned/burnt in his dialect maps of the 48 states.

Jamesaritchie
08-12-2006, 02:54 AM
Sometimes you really do want the past participle form, but I note that Hans Kurath uses the ed/t of kneeled/knelt and smelled/smelt burned/burnt in his dialect maps of the 48 states.

Interesting. Especially since not all irregular verbs are created equal. I encounter "burnt" far more often than "burned," at least in certain contexs. "Burnt toast," for example.

Guess I need to study U.S. dialect a bit more. As a writer, I spend so much time studying dialect in other countries and regions that I sometimes neglect dialect right here at home.

Medievalist
08-12-2006, 02:57 AM
Interesting. Especially since not all irregular verbs are created equal. I encounter "burnt" far more often than "burned," at least in certain contexs. "Burnt toast," for example.

I have had huge rancorous arguments with editors who wanted to change the name of the color burnt umber to burned umber, and one who was sure Eliot's poem "Burnt Norton" was a typo :D

Jamesaritchie
08-12-2006, 03:18 AM
I have had huge rancorous arguments with editors who wanted to change the name of the color burnt umber to burned umber, and one who was sure Eliot's poem "Burnt Norton" was a typo :D

Now that gives me great faith in editors.

allion
08-12-2006, 03:19 AM
I have had huge rancorous arguments with editors who wanted to change the name of the color burnt umber to burned umber, and one who was sure Eliot's poem "Burnt Norton" was a typo :D

And they must be destroyed, or at least sent to a remote desert island to be chased by polar bears and push buttons for eternity.

Karen

bluejester12
08-17-2006, 02:58 AM
Kneel before Zod!







For those who seen/remember Superman II....

rekirts
08-17-2006, 06:48 PM
And they must be destroyed, or at least sent to a remote desert island to be chased by polar bears and push buttons for eternity.
KarenHow did the polar bears get to the desert island? Were they sended there too?

Sorry, I'm feeling frivolous today. :o

laurel29
08-17-2006, 07:09 PM
Hehe, my daughter says things like, "I sended a letter"...sended sounds so funny.

sdarb
08-17-2006, 08:28 PM
My son (who is 26 and almost - thank God - a college graduate but an unfortunate product of the north Alabama public school system and didn't start listening to his grammar-nazi mother until now) still says ruint.

It has driven me to my knees, at times
:)

Carmy
08-23-2006, 09:49 PM
Hehe, my daughter says things like, "I sended a letter"...sended sounds so funny.

I love that, Laurel. She'll grow out of it but you'll lose a lot of laughs. I've been there.

Knelt of course!

Kneeled is not a proper word, the correct word is knelt. But it depends on which side of the pond you reside for instance, in the U.S. they say "He dove into the water" when in fact it should be "He dived into the water". A Dove is a friggin bird, so you would expect the phrase to be "he flew into the water" how about if the Dove got cross, he could fly into a rage!

Oh, how 'dove' makes me cringe. It's a bit like the noise that a knife makes when scraped across a plate. DIVED! DIVED! DIVED! I can put up with most American English but that one makes me crabby.

Ralyks
09-16-2006, 05:29 PM
Kneeled is not a proper word, the correct word is knelt. But it depends on which side of the pond you reside for instance, in the U.S. they say "He dove into the water" when in fact it should be "He dived into the water". A Dove is a friggin bird, so you would expect the phrase to be "he flew into the water" how about if the Dove got cross, he could fly into a rage!

{;0)

There are different rules for American and British usage. That doesn't make American usage "wrong." Grammar is a modern invention. You follow your rules, and we'll follow ours...We'll say the crowd is going wild, and you may say the crowd are going wild.

arrowqueen
09-17-2006, 12:30 AM
I'd rather not, thank you - though I have seen this misconception about Brits and collective nouns before.

I would no more write: 'The crowd are going wild.' than I would: 'The cat are running up the curtains.'

;)

Peggy
09-17-2006, 01:03 AM
I'd rather not, thank you - though I have seen this misconception about Brits and collective nouns before. Someone should really tell the BBC and the Guardian that this is a misconception, since they use "the crowd are" construction (and I notice because it sounds/looks so odd to me).

Here's an example I came across recently ( the Leeds festival sounds like fun BTW):
A potentially tricky situation is averted as the crowd are distracted by a man walking around naked except for a thong, who had presumably been hired specifically for such occasions. They also say "the band haven't" which seems just as jarring, since they are referring to only one band.

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/reviews/story/0,,1859687,00.html

arrowqueen
09-17-2006, 01:13 AM
'The Guardian' is so noted for its typos that it's affectionately known as 'The Gruniad', so their bad grammar doesn't surprise me - but I am shocked and horrified by the BBC. I shall be going round with my red pencil first thing in the morning.

What's the world coming to?

signed,

Outraged. (Tunbridge Wells.)

jbal
09-17-2006, 03:19 AM
Hmmm... a late resurgence of this thread.
I caught myself writing kneeled again a few days ago, just so everyone knows. But I caught it.

lekha
09-17-2006, 04:53 PM
there are other words like dream, learn, spell, spill, spoil, etc which fit into this pattern. but some like /sleep/ /keep/spend/ sweep/ weep/ do not have the 'ed' form - - and /learn/ can be an adjective if we use 'learned' (as in a learned man) - of course there's a pronunciation difference.
also, there's the issue of voiced/unvoiced consonant endings and their pronunciation - e.g. even in a word like "checked" we pronounced it "checkt" whereas in a word like "charged" we'd retain the /d/ ending in pronunciation.
anyway english spelling conventions only froze somewhere in the 18C, so there's no sacred rule for these anyway!
as it stands, /ed/ for some past tense endings is used more in American than in Brit English - and either's fine as long as it's consistently used. IMHO.

Ralyks
09-17-2006, 05:00 PM
"Kneeled" is a perfectly acceptable American construction, and you will find both "kneeled" and "knelt" used interchangeably in American usage. No need to "catch" yourself using it and correct it.

That's interesting to learn that "the crowd are" is not considered corrected usage in British grammar. I had read in more than one grammar source that it was considered so, and I've come across it in my reading.

arrowqueen
09-17-2006, 11:58 PM
So I found when I looked it up.

American Heritage: Some nouns, like committee, clergy, enemy, group, family, and team, refer to a group but are singular in form. These nouns are called collective nouns. In American usage, a collective noun takes a singular verb when it refers to the collection considered as a whole, as in The family was united on this question or The enemy is suing for peace. It takes a plural verb when it refers to the members of the group considered as individuals, as in My family are always fighting among themselves or The enemy were showing up in groups of three or four to turn in their weapons. In British usage, collective nouns are more often treated as plurals: The government have not announced a new policy. The team are playing in the test matches next week.

but

BBC Learning: Collective nouns refer to groups of people usually. Our choice of singular or plural verb form often depends on whether we are thinking of the group as an impersonal unit (in which case we use the singular verb - and relative pronoun which) or as a collection of individuals (in which case we use the plural verb form - and relative pronoun who).

As far as I can see both British and American rules are exactly the same, which means that the statement about British usage is mistaken.

Peggy
09-18-2006, 01:31 AM
The British and American rules appear about the same, but, at least from my reading, in practice British writers use the plural more often with collective nouns. I have never seen "The government have" construction in American writing, for example.

From the Chicago Manual of Style FAQ:
Q. It grates on my ear to listen to the BBC (particularly sports) newscasts talk about countries in the plural form, e.g., “England are preparing for next week’s match.” Can this be correct? I only began noticing it a couple of years ago, and I seem to recall that the practice even extends to cities or team names (Bayern Munich are out of the playoffs . . .). Your assistance would be much appreciated.

A. The British are much more likely to consider collectives in the plural rather than the singular. I first remember noticing this when reading about English rock bands back in the seventies (the Who are the loudest rock band in the world; Led Zeppelin, some say, have sold their souls). Fowler’s points out this difference between American and British usage at various points. In American English this usage has largely disappeared.
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.html

arrowqueen
09-18-2006, 02:34 AM
Sports commentators? Enough said.

:D

Peggy
09-18-2006, 03:00 AM
Sports commentators? Enough said. They do have a special language all their own.

Ralyks
09-18-2006, 04:32 PM
BBC Learning: Collective nouns refer to groups of people usually. Our choice of singular or plural verb form often depends on whether we are thinking of the group as an impersonal unit (in which case we use the singular verb - and relative pronoun which) or as a collection of individuals (in which case we use the plural verb form - and relative pronoun who).

As far as I can see both British and American rules are exactly the same, which means that the statement about British usage is mistaken.

It does sound like the same rule. Americans and the British must simply occasionally differ about what they consider "an impersonal unit" and what they consider "a collection of individuals."

sdarb
09-18-2006, 07:44 PM
am really late rejoining this thread, but to Ken S ---- ouch (or is it ouched?)

Wordworm
09-18-2006, 08:15 PM
Googling for examples of "the crowd are"...

delirious.org.uk - Reviews - Access:d Album
"the crowd are loudly audible with regular cheering and singing"

Punktastic
"By the time 'Alive With The Glory Of Love' comes round, the crowd are completely won over."

opsyn newyr eng
"The crowd are puzzled and curious."

BBC - Radio 1 - Judge Jules
"The crowd are the loudest ever ..."

indieworkshop.com | articles: In the Crowd: Green Man Festival '06 ...
"The crowd are hesitant to accept his twee-isms at first..."

Microsoft PowerPoint - Chris Kemp Public Lecture 14 July 06
"The crowd are so much more aware of their own. personal risk and will carry out their own. assessment very early on in the process ..."

Venue Magazine > Spam Archive
"The crowd are up on their feet."

UK Indymedia | Stop Bu$h - National Demonstration - Thursday 20th
"Trafalgar Square: The crowd are moving along Regent Street ..."

Nakhlasmoke
09-18-2006, 08:40 PM
Not American, and to me "knelt" always looks odd. I'll use kneeled, and if I ever get published and the editors say use "knelt' I shall do so with no argument.