Spammer turns Newbie with a question

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Niggle by Leaf

Hello all, I've been spamming the Announcements forum here for a while, but have been drawn to lurk further around the board. All highly educational - not to mention, entertaining - for a talentless beginner like myself.

I have a newbie-style question that someone here might be able to answer. I have seen several web sites that advise writers not to make work that they intend to submit for publication available publicly on the web. I'm thinking of work that might be put up on a message board like this one, for comments and criticism. On the other hand, I see a lot of people ignoring this advice left, right and centre. Can anybody put me right as to what the risks are?

Thanks!

Niggle

P.S. no need to rush with an answer. I'm still only about a third of the way through the obligatory 1,000,000 words I need to churn out before I can tell whether there is any hope for me (or whether I should just take up knitting, instead).
 

Tish Davidson

for what it is worth

There does not yet seem to be a definitive answer to how much web posting constitutes publishing, however, I believe the current guidelines run like this.

If you post work on a website open to the public that anyone can go to and read, it is published and your first rights are gone. (If you've seen the call for Mid-America Review unpublished writers issue, it clearly says that web publication counts as being published)

If you post your work on a list-serve or in a members only online critique group, it is unpublished. This is the equivalent of handing out copies for critique at a writers' group or a writing class.

The murky area is on a board like this one where anyone can read the material, but only registered members can post. Is the board considered public or private? Is the material considered published or unpublished?

Someone several months ago suggested that if you post to a board like this one, you should clearly marke the material as work in progress and consider deleting the posting after you get some replies. That seems like reasonable advice given the current interpretations of what constitutes being published.
 

SRHowen

according to

Orson Scott Card you should never post more than 13 lines of your work on a BB--or it may be considered published.

I agree.

And why risk your idea?

Post 13 lines and ask if anyone is willing to read the rest so you can send them the complete piece. Better safe than sorry.

Shawn
 

Niggle by Leaf

Re: according to

Thanks for the information all of you. Can I ask for a bit more clarification? So, placing your work on the internet can count as "publishing" the piece, except in certain restricted circumstances. And the problem with this is that you can no longer sell the first publishing rights to anyone else, is that the case? Presumably, you can still sell your work to a publisher who is happy not to have first publishing rights? Or is it more a case that it's not realistic to expect anyone to pay to publish work that is already available freely on the internet?

Apologies if this is a stupid question! :/

As for why one should take the risk, Shawn, I guess the attraction for me is the availability of critiquing forums, where you can get really detailed feedback on your work from someone who is a complete stranger, and who will therefore (hopefully) be perfectly honest about its strengths and weaknesses.
 

aka eraser

Re: according to

Sure, you could still sell second, or reprint rights but the best paying markets are overwhelmingly interested in first rights.

I think it's safe to say that fewer than 50% of markets will consider buying reprints.

It doesn't make sense to eliminate most of the markets, and virtually all of the higher paying ones, just to have a few people comment on your work online.

If you feel critiquing is important, either join a 3D writing group, or email the piece to folks whose opinion you value.
 

qatz

Re: according to

Frank is correct, but I would say even more so. First rights are extremely important to the publishers I know of, and it can be suicide to lose them. That is going to be a big majority view, I think. So my quick advice is, listen to all these good people and do not risk losing your rights. Some people even have strong cautions about critique groups, not only in terms of copyright, but also in terms of plagiarism.

Having said that, your question is an excellent one, one which I've pondered and one to which there are different answers depending on opinion. And your underlying concern, just finding a human to read the stuff and react, is quite valid. I think people are much more free with their stuff on the net than I would think prudent, but if it's all in process of revision etc. mebbe it'll work. Still, I tend toward the conservative side on this and think you should too if you want to sell down the road. Of course, you can share your first ten stories with anyone anywhere, on the premise that we must write badly before we write well, and that will be educational. So those are things for you to balance . . .
 

Niggle by Leaf

Thanks

Thanks for the advice. At the moment, I am such an eXtreme beginner that the possibility of getting helpful advice on my writing far outweighs any risk that I might be losing a potential publication possibility. But, in the future, the balance of risk will change (at least, inside my own head if not in actuality :) ) and at that point I'll follow your suggestions and stop putting stuff online.

I guess by "3D Writing Group" you mean one where actual people meet in the actual flesh. (Wow! Radical!) I hope to join such a group at some point, but at present my RL circumstances make it impracticable. I also have a couple of very patient beta readers who give me help by e-mail, to whom I am very grateful. But, I still feel that online critique groups add an extra dimension, in that you get detailed feedback from people who don't know you from Adam and who have no reason to want to like your piece or any expectations of it or you. They also give you the chance to critique for yourself.
 

dpaterso

Niggle, methinks in some instances the first rights protection thing may boil down to individual editor tastes. I've read guidelines where ye editor has wanted First North American print rights and nothing else, i.e. the material should not have appeared in print before. Others have specified that the material must not have appeared anywhere before in any form including the internet. But keeping track of who gives a damn and who doesn't is difficult; always better to play safe. Certainly the CompuServe online writing/critique groups I've been involved with over the years have private message sections and private libraries which only registered writing group members can access, which preserves all rights.

Shrug, I dunno if I'd added anything to the conversation. Just my random thoughts early on a Sunday morning.

-Derek
hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57
 
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