Dreaded Commas!

estateconnection · Aug 1, 2006

I feel silly asking this question, but I am reading a book for school and there is a line in the book I can't get past because of the omission of a comma. Please tell me if the book is correct. The sentence, as it is written in the book, is:

After his return from Paris Freud worked as a general physician at the Vienna General Hospital.

I would write that sentence:

After his return from Paris, Freud worked as a general physician at the Vienna General Hospital.

Is my assumption of the comma after Paris incorrect?

maestrowork · Aug 1, 2006

You're correct.

estateconnection · Aug 1, 2006

Ah, thank you. Even textbooks have the odd error, yes?

Perks · Aug 1, 2006

Is Paris Freud related to Paris Hilton?

estateconnection · Aug 1, 2006

You know Perks, I didn't even read it that way because I couldn't even finish the sentence. My eyes kept staring at that empty place where I thought the comma should be. Then of course, I questioned my twenty something years of comma use and wondered if I had been abusively sucking from the comma repository. I demand compensation!

maestrowork · Aug 2, 2006

I think this is a case when we know something isn't right because "Paris Freud" just looks and sounds weird. However, I have seen people skip the comma all the time, in published work:

"If I knew you were coming I would have made dinner."

"After I'd bathed I took a nap."

The problem, I think, is that if you invert either sentence, the comma is not needed, so many people don't think a comma is need anyway:

"I would have made dinner if I knew you were coming."
"I took a nap after I had bathed."

reph · Aug 2, 2006

maestrowork said:
I have seen people skip the comma all the time, in published work:

..."After I'd bathed I took a nap."

The problem, I think, is that if you invert either sentence, the comma is not needed, so many people don't think a comma is need anyway:

..."I took a nap after I had bathed."

Here's another reason people don't think the first sentence needs a comma. It's easy to parse because the second "I" signals the start of another clause. This would be less easy:

"After I'd bathed my dog and I took a nap."

Readers will speed through the first few words thinking I bathed my dog. Then they come to "and" and have to go back and figure out just who had a bath.

stephblake24 · Aug 4, 2006

I hate comma rules.

bluejester12 · Aug 4, 2006

maestrowork said:
I think this is a case when we know something isn't right because "Paris Freud" just looks and sounds weird. However, I have seen people skip the comma all the time, in published work:

"If I knew you were coming I would have made dinner."

"After I'd bathed I took a nap."

The problem, I think, is that if you invert either sentence, the comma is not needed, so many people don't think a comma is need anyway:

"I would have made dinner if I knew you were coming."
"I took a nap after I had bathed."

The past perfect strikes me as odd for "bathed."

I've been experiementing with commas in MS Word, and at times an omission or placing of a comma is not counted as a grammar error FYI. I know, it's Word (comma splice intentional).

reph · Aug 4, 2006

bluejester12 said:
The past perfect strikes me as odd for "bathed."

Actually, the past perfect would be correct in the other example. "I would have made dinner if I'd known you were coming."

laurel29 · Aug 4, 2006

Commas scare me

. I am afraid to put too many in, so I end up leaving too many out.

I always use them incorrectly. I am reading some grammar books right now, but I know this is going to be something I struggle with. I have a comma phobia...

stephblake24 · Aug 4, 2006

Laurel29. I have comma phobia, too. Maybe we should start a support group.

I have an English degree with an A in college grammar, and I still use them incorrectly.

I have a sticky note with hints... Also go here: http://www.junketstudies.com/rulesofw/

Silver King · Aug 4, 2006

laurel29 said:
Commas scare me . I am afraid to put too many in, so I end up leaving too many out. I always use them incorrectly.

Laurel, there wasn't an instance in your post of a misplaced comma. In fact, they're used with the utmost skill to give the reader pause with the greatest inflection. So you see, you're weaving correct punctuation through your writing, perhaps without realizing it, and that's the mark of natural writing at its best.

bluejester12 · Aug 7, 2006

reph said:
Actually, the past perfect would be correct in the other example. "I would have made dinner if I'd known you were coming."

I know. That's why I didn't mention that example

Here's one rule I do remember: use a comma before a conjunction if an independent clause follows it. Silver King's last sentence, for example.

Last I heard, it's a matter of choice and not a hard rule for examples like:

I ate turkey, salad, and a tofu dog.
I ate turkey, salad and a tofu dog.

smallthunder · Aug 7, 2006

stephblake24 said:
Laurel29. I have comma phobia, too. Maybe we should start a support group.

I have an English degree with an A in college grammar, and I still use them incorrectly.

I have a sticky note with hints... Also go here: http://www.junketstudies.com/rulesofw/

Thanks for the site --

Jamesaritchie · Aug 7, 2006

bluejester12 said:
I know. That's why I didn't mention that example

Here's one rule I do remember: use a comma before a conjunction if an independent clause follows it. Silver King's last sentence, for example.

Last I heard, it's a matter of choice and not a hard rule for examples like:

I ate turkey, salad, and a tofu dog.
I ate turkey, salad and a tofu dog.

Not really a choice, but rather a decision as to whether the serial comma is good or bad. For the most part, stick to the serial comma. It'll save editors a bunch of grief. They're likely to change it if you don't use it, but they'll never mess with hit if you do.

And not using the serial comma can lead to some really horrid and confusing sentences. Better safe than getting laughed at.

DeborahM · Aug 7, 2006

laurel29 said:
Commas scare me . I am afraid to put too many in, so I end up leaving too many out. I always use them incorrectly. I am reading some grammar books right now, but I know this is going to be something I struggle with. I have a comma phobia...

Boy, can my editor relate to that statement after reading my work! Thank the Lord his patience quota is high. I keep reading the comma rules hoping it will sink in some day and the light will go on!

And thanks to this thread, I don't feel so bad about thinking I was the sole owner of idiotcy when it comes to the commas.

maestrowork · Aug 8, 2006

Serial commas, IMO, are optional but they do give clarity. For example:

I ate some cheese, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches

is different than

I ate some cheese, peanut butter, and jelly sandwiches

bluejester12 · Aug 8, 2006

maestrowork said:
Serial commas, IMO, are optional but they do give clarity. For example:

I ate some cheese, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches

is different than

I ate some cheese, peanut butter, and jelly sandwiches

Optional as long as the meaning is clear--that's what I was getting at, too.

TeddyG · Aug 8, 2006

I am, pure and simple, comma challenged.

stephblake24 · Aug 8, 2006

DeborahM said:
Boy, can my editor relate to that statement after reading my work! Thank the Lord his patience quota is high. I keep reading the comma rules hoping it will sink in some day and the light will go on!

And thanks to this thread, I don't feel so bad about thinking I was the sole owner of idiotcy when it comes to the commas.

Isn't it strange how we can write for years, read Strunk, etc., but we still don't know about the comma?

I start 2nd guessing myself all the time. It is very annoying, and sometimes it hurts my writing because I am too concerned with the stupid comma.

I recently sent an agent a query, and she said it had typos BECAUSE of misplaced commas. I hate that.

I was reading some of Judy Blume; she doesn't use commas ALL the time.

Bufty · Aug 8, 2006

Treat the comma as both enabling one to draw breath and being the bearer of clarity and one can't go too far wrong.

Heartsease · Aug 8, 2006

I like this, finally a "rule" I think I will be able to remember.

LA

Steve W · Aug 22, 2006

Hi,

I ate some cheese, peanut butter and jelly sandwiches

is different than

I ate some cheese, peanut butter, and jelly sandwiches

In England, the first statement is a correct use of the comma. We're taught you never place a comma before 'and'. I read in a grammar book that using commas in such a way is a US convention. That said, I find it does clarify things, so have adopted the technique. Of course, my English teachers and the book could have been wrong. I suppose it's similar to the numbering convention: 100,000 is US; 100 000 is UK.

Here's a horror story - my first apostrophe lesson (that I recall) was that human things get one, nothing else does. For example, 'the boy's head' is correct, but 'the dog's head' is wrong. Must have been one hell of a teacher. She also taught me that 'its' was 'it's'. Good knows what's become of all the kids she taught over the years. Could explain why I don't personally recognise any of the names on the best-seller lists!

Cheers,
Steve

Heather Lewis · Aug 22, 2006

Steve W said:
In England, the first statement is a correct use of the comma. We're taught you never place a comma before 'and'. I read in a grammar book that using commas in such a way is a US convention.

I think Lynne Truss talks about the serial comma in Eats, Shoots, and Leaves...probably everyone here has read that book by now, but if not, I highly recommend it!

As has been pointed out, a serial comma is helpful when the sentence would be confusing without it, as in the sentence: "I'd like to thank my parents, God and Mother Theresa."

Technically you can go either way in instances like:

After dinner I had a bath.
After dinner, I had a bath.

Usu. just depends on your preference, or your publisher's style guide.

MR

Dreaded Commas!

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delicate #!&@*#! flower

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has a lopsided smile.

Megalops Erectus

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Where have the last ten years gone?