A Question for the British...

britwrit · Jul 30, 2006

Hi. I'm an American who's lived in London for the last decade or so, but being a Yank, I'm still pretty much braindead. In my WIP, one of my main characters is a teenager whose parents are American Indians (Dad came over during the Vietnam War to avoid the draft) but who was born in London and spent all of her 17 years there. My questions are...

(1) I have her seeing herself as "English." Would she rather look at herself as "British?" And would most other Londoners see her as British/English or American?

(2) She spent her first twelve or so years in a housing estate in Stockwell, south London. Her Dad owns a thriving mini-cab company, though, and after expanding, made enough money for them to move to Hempstead. She still sees herself as working class but would people roll their eyes at this description?

Sorry. I know these questions sound stupid but I can't really get a fix on them. Any help would be extremely appreciated.

Steve W · Jul 30, 2006

Hi,

I don't know many people who'd describe themselves as British, except to foreigners - I'm sure most would say English.

People would think of her as English, unless she dressed in a foreign way/ spoke with a foreign accent/ or were racist and she looked particularly foreign.

Yes, they'd roll their eyes, but that doesn't stop some middle class still believing they're working class.

Cheers,
Steve

veinglory · Jul 30, 2006

English people think of themslves as English and are fairly fuzzy on English and British being different (one of the reason Scots still get plenty of chance to bristle at how they are treated).

People wh are still working class might roll their eyes but growing up on a counsel estate counts for something even with them c.f. those who are raised with money.

newmod · Jul 30, 2006

I don´t know if this will help but I´ll give it to you anyway.

I was born and raised in London, but my parents, grandparents etc. are Irish. I consider myself to be from London and tend to say I´m neither English nor Irish. I´m from London with an Irish background. For me naionality is an irrelevant concept. Other than the need to have a passport to travel.

If she is so adamant about saying "I´m English" then it would suggest to me that she´s reacting against being American. I live in Spain and when people ask me "where are you from?" I say London and they say "oh you´re English" and it goes from there.

So for me nationality is something imposed on me by others. As far as I´m concerned I´m from London. I have no blood, or any other, connection to England the country. My connection is to London.

Don´t know if that has helped you or hindered you, but I hope it has helped.

Good luck with the piece.
newmod

hjwilde · Jul 30, 2006

Hmmmm - I'm English but think of myself as British so I don't think it's necessarily true that all the English are "fuzzy on English and British being different".

I know this is no help as now you've got opposing points of view, but there probably really are all sorts of different points of view on this from people who are English and and I think you'll probably need to just pick the one that feels closest to your character.

H

hjwilde · Jul 30, 2006

This is what my partner makes of it - he's half English (English Dad and Irish Mum, born in England, lived in Ireland until he was 18 and now back in England):

He says he feels neither English nor Irish as people from Ireland tend to think he's English, as his accent is very mild, and people from England can hear his Irish accent and think he's Irish.

We both think that Newmod is right by saying that if she's making a big deal out of being English, she's reacting against something.

Hope that helps

H

veinglory · Jul 30, 2006

IMHO English people without close contact with non-English Brits are the most likely to conflate the two. That was the group I was in contact with the most. Once at a party it turned at the a majority there present could not tell me the difference between England, the UK and Britain. And yes, all three are different--that was part of my education in New Zealand

dpaterso · Jul 30, 2006

As a full-blooded Native American who must stick out like a sore thumb in a country that continues to have serious racial friction problems, maybe she wouldn't want to call herself English or British.

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veinglory · Jul 30, 2006

I don't know. I met plenty of very proud black, Pakistani and Asian Brits...

hjwilde · Jul 30, 2006

We've got a very wide circle of friends from various countries (including 2 from New Zealand

- and even a couple of Scots

) but every one of my English friends would know the difference if I asked.

I don't want to have an argument over this but it surely isn't possible to judge the whole of England from just the group you were in contact with. Just by coming on this message board you've already found 1 and a half

of us who know the difference.

H

dpaterso · Jul 30, 2006

I'd bet they're third-generation (or later) Brits whose grandparents came from Commonwealth countries that once belonged to the British Empire, which is how they came to be in the UK in the first place (for years Britain had an open door policy). Different kettle of fish.

-Derek
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electric.avenue · Jul 30, 2006

I don't think the character would "stick out like a sore thumb" in London (I've lived there), where there is a good mix of all different kinds of people.

If she has only ever lived in London, she may well see herself as British, or English, rather than American, but it depends very much on the person. She will probably see herself as a Londoner, and also be conscious of her native American heritage, esp as so many people living in London are from families that have come into the area from elsewhere.

Like a previous poster, I too do not see nationality as such a big deal - more like something imposed on me.

Cath · Jul 30, 2006

National Statistics are always a great source of information on ethnic diversity:

I've lived in England, Wales and Scotland, and it's interesting that the non-English nations of the UK make a much greater distinction between nationality other than "British".

Tish Davidson · Jul 30, 2006

Going back to another part of your questions, wouldn't how people view her in terms of class depend on part on how she spoke? If she spent the first 12 years of her life in council housing, she probably sounds a lot like the people who live there - e.g. working class.

Snitchcat · Jul 30, 2006

britwrit said:
(1) I have her seeing herself as "English." Would she rather look at herself as "British?" And would most other Londoners see her as British/English or American?

(2) She spent her first twelve or so years in a housing estate in Stockwell, south London. Her Dad owns a thriving mini-cab company, though, and after expanding, made enough money for them to move to Hempstead. She still sees herself as working class but would people roll their eyes at this description?

IMO:

If she spent her first twelve years in a Stockwell housing estate, she'd sound like the other kids / residents there.

"Working class" is still heard, but it belongs more to times past than now.

She'd probably refer to herself more as a Londoner instead of "British" or "English".

It also depends on how strongly she identifies with her American Indian heritage and which country she considers her home. Just because you're born in one country, doesn't mean that it's your home. So, she might refer to herself as American Indian, even though she is British by birth.

Btw, 'mini-cab'? Just questioning the use of the term, though I admit it's been a while since I've been in London.

Hope that helps,
Snitch.

P.S. I used to live in London.

Billytwice · Jul 31, 2006

I don't think there's anything wrong with the term 'mini cab.'
I have a friend who has just taken up cab driving as a job. Apparently there are two different cab licences you can have in the UK, a Hackney licence which allows you to pick up fares on the street when they flag you down and the easier to get 'private hire' licence where your fares are supposed to ring a central office to arrange to be picked up. (Mini cabs.)
There maybe more variations of cab licence covering mini buses etc.

Richard · Jul 31, 2006

She'd almost certainly say English, in England, possibly British overseas.

three seven · Jul 31, 2006

Snitchcat said:
Btw, 'mini-cab'? Just questioning the use of the term, though I admit it's been a while since I've been in London.

A minicab is an everyday car with 'Taxi' written on it, as opposed to a Hackney cab, which is what you'd call a traditional London taxi (FX4/Metrocab etc). Minicabs aren't allowed to pick up fares on the street.

seun · Aug 2, 2006

I don't know anyone who refers to themself as British. It's either English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish. To be honest, the only time I hear British is from Americans when they mean English.

Cath · Aug 2, 2006

I'm British and I call myself such - but then again, I've always been a bit odd. :crazy:

electric.avenue · Aug 2, 2006

I sometimes refer to myself as British, sometimes as English. I don't see the two terms as meaning/representing the same thing. British refers to my overall Scots/English heritage, English refers to where I grew up and now live.

I agree with Snitchcat that people are no longer clearly defined class-wise by their accents. In England you get some really well off people with strong regional accents, and people in quite low paid jobs who speak standard or "posh" English. However, some people still see class as a question of accent rather than of wealth, which I believe is misleading.

A Question for the British...

britwrit

Steve W

veinglory

volitare nequeo

newmod

hjwilde

hjwilde

veinglory

volitare nequeo

dpaterso

Also in our Discord and IRC chat channels

veinglory

volitare nequeo

hjwilde

dpaterso

Also in our Discord and IRC chat channels

electric.avenue

Cath

The mean one

Tish Davidson

Snitchcat

Dragon-kitty.

Billytwice

Richard

13th Triskaidekaphobe

three seven

(Graeme Cameron)

seun

Horror Man

Cath

The mean one

electric.avenue