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SC Harrison
07-29-2006, 04:36 AM
I think George needs to bring Vladimir back to the ranch and have a heart-to-heart, and maybe a boot-to-@$$:

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060727/51927823.html

Russia and Venezuela have signed military contracts worth over $3 billion in the past eighteen months, state-controlled arms exporter Rosoboronexport earlier on Thursday. Under one contract, Russia is to supply 24 planes and 53 helicopters to Venezuela.

Russia has already delivered to Venezuela over 30,000 AK-103 automatic rifles in late June under a contract for the supply of 100,000 automatic rifles. And the two countries signed $1-billion contracts on supplies of military planes and helicopters to Venezuela earlier in the month.

The deal attracted the ire of Washington, which says Venezuela's regime posed a security threat to the region.

Putin said cooperation between Russia and Venezuela was not aimed against any other countries.

"Our interaction seeks to develop economies of the two countries and raise living standards of our people," he said.



It's a good thing Russia lost the Cold War. I think...

billythrilly7th
07-29-2006, 04:53 AM
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-reagan.jpg

Not to spoil the surprise, but I'm buying you all one for Christmas.

robeiae
07-29-2006, 05:04 AM
Putin. It's where the buck will finally stop when all is said and done.

billythrilly7th
07-29-2006, 05:06 AM
Putin. It's where the buck will finally stop when all is said and done.

I hope you're not Putin me on.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/musik/music-smiley-009.gif

Badampa!

Good night everybody!

Bravo
07-29-2006, 05:08 AM
does any1 know why brazil is making a nuclear reactor and an atomic submarine but no1 gives a damn about it?

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3738/is_200407/ai_n9458634


:Shrug:

billythrilly7th
07-29-2006, 05:11 AM
when is that story from?

billythrilly7th
07-29-2006, 05:12 AM
does any1 know why brazil is making a nuclear reactor and an atomic submarine but no1 gives a damn about it?


Because they haven't threatened to wipe another country off the face of the earth?

:Shrug:

Bravo
07-29-2006, 05:13 AM
sorry, fixed it.

they are also enriching uranium:


http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2006/2006-05-08-04.asp

Bravo
07-29-2006, 05:14 AM
Because they haven't threatened to wipe another country off the face of the earth?

:Shrug:

but why would a LA country need to get the bomb? who are they protecting themselves from?

billythrilly7th
07-29-2006, 05:14 AM
Brazil has managed to assure the international community its intentions are industrial and commercial, not military.

Good enough for me.

robeiae
07-29-2006, 05:15 AM
does any1 know why brazil is making a nuclear reactor and an atomic submarine but no1 gives a damn about it?
Do I really need to bring that butt avatar back to answer this question?

billythrilly7th
07-29-2006, 05:15 AM
but why would a LA country need to get the bomb? who are they protecting themselves from?

Pasadena?

Bravo
07-29-2006, 05:18 AM
Do I really need to bring that butt avatar back to answer this question?

yes. please.

billythrilly7th
07-29-2006, 05:26 AM
Bravo,
I always worried that I wouldn't be able to find a spot for you in my administration for obvious reasons.

But based on your performance here and passion for this issue, will you accept an appointment to represent the United States, YOUR COUNTRY, as our representative at the IAEA?

SpookyWriter
07-29-2006, 05:33 AM
when is that story from?
Интересующ как замечание некоторые людей становит с временем, да? Я думаю кто-то с меньшим здравым смыслом может пойти к соединению и открыть источник этой информации.
Вы думаете?

Сделайте вы нужна помощь с этой проблемой?

Spasibo, -- and thanks for the laughs!

Da?

SC Harrison
07-29-2006, 06:03 AM
Интересующ как замечание некоторые людей становит с временем, да? Я думаю кто-то с меньшим здравым смыслом может пойти к соединению и открыть источник этой информации.
Вы думаете?

Сделайте вы нужна помощь с этой проблемой?

Spasibo, -- and thanks for the laughs!

Da?

I thought I recognized your tone! You're Viktor Khostov, formerly of the Second Chief Directorate. So you didn't die in that whorehouse in Budapest, eh? Who was the poor slob whose luck ran out that night, Viktor? Somebody whose usefullness had come to an end? Stay on your toes, my friend, and enjoy your last days. :)

Robert Toy
07-29-2006, 07:52 AM
Интересующ как замечание некоторые людей становит с временем, да? Я думаю кто-то с меньшим здравым смыслом может пойти к соединению и открыть источник этой информации.
Вы думаете?

Сделайте вы нужна помощь с этой проблемой?

Spasibo, -- and thanks for the laughs!

Da?
Было бы слишком легко!

SpookyWriter
07-29-2006, 08:04 AM
Prastite, chto vy skazali? Kak eto skazat' paangliyski?

billythrilly7th
07-29-2006, 08:07 AM
�������������������������������������������������� ��������������������������������
Интересующ как замечание некоторые людей становит с временем, да? Я думаю кто-то с меньшим здравым смыслом может пойти к соединению и открыть источник этой информации.
Вы думаете?

Сделайте вы нужна помощь с этой проблемой?

Spasibo, -- and thanks for the laughs!

Da?

http://datacore.sciflicks.com/close_encounters/sounds/close_encounters_five_notes_human.wav

billythrilly7th
07-29-2006, 08:10 AM
It doesn't work.

I don't get it.

SpookyWriter
07-29-2006, 08:13 AM
Было бы слишком легко!Da! Too funny. spasibo for the laugh!

SpookyWriter
07-29-2006, 08:14 AM
It doesn't work.

I don't get it.Nam nuzhen perevodchik...da?

SpookyWriter
07-29-2006, 08:26 AM
It doesn't work.

I don't get it.

Better? I was on holiday last year in Ukraine from May 6-11th for their celebrations. Something to do with the end of WWII...

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k272/SpookyWriter/th_Holiday053.jpg (http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k272/SpookyWriter/?action=view&current=Holiday053.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1)

Robert Toy
07-29-2006, 09:21 AM
Prastite, chto vy skazali? Kak eto skazat' paangliyski?
Нет, огорченное я не понимаю.

Förstår du denna?

Путин будет капиталистом и проданным самолетом к Chavez. Американцы ревнивы потому что они не продали американский самолет

SpookyWriter
07-29-2006, 09:32 AM
Нет, огорченное я не понимаю.

Förstår du denna?

Путин будет капиталистом и проданным самолетом к Chavez. Американцы ревнивы потому что они не продали американский самолетЭто проблема?

Politics...blah! Nyet!!!!

SpookyWriter
07-29-2006, 09:36 AM
Нет, огорченное я не понимаю.Atkuda mne znat'

Ruskie translation: Ask me another question. Kaputz?

Robert Toy
07-29-2006, 01:39 PM
Atkuda mne znat'

Ruskie translation: Ask me another question. Kaputz?
Спросите мне другой вопрос Нет - Atkuda mne znat'

Mary имел маленькую овечку, его пальто было бело как снежок
И везде что Mary когда овечка была уверенн пойти
Теперь вы заканчиваете стихотворение?

Robert Toy
07-29-2006, 01:56 PM
Bravo,
I always worried that I wouldn't be able to find a spot for you in my administration for obvious reasons.

But based on your performance here and passion for this issue, will you accept an appointment to represent the United States, YOUR COUNTRY, as our representative at the IAEA?
I had to re-read it a few times, I thought you said IKEA!
Sorry :Shrug:

Robert Toy
07-30-2006, 01:01 AM
Well, killed another thread...:Shrug:

robeiae
07-30-2006, 01:03 AM
Well, killed another thread...:Shrug:
Nah...Spooky killed it. You just didn't know it was already dead.

Robert Toy
07-30-2006, 01:06 AM
Darn, when did Spooky die? Did he suffer?…he he he

robeiae
07-30-2006, 01:08 AM
Did he suffer?he he he
He was beaten to death by mimes with imaginary chopsticks...what do you think?

billythrilly7th
07-30-2006, 01:09 AM
I had to re-read it a few times, I thought you said IKEA!
Sorry :Shrug:

That too.

Robert Toy
07-30-2006, 01:11 AM
Velly excruciating way to become one with universe

Robert Toy
07-30-2006, 01:13 AM
That too.
What do have against IKEA?

Robert Toy
07-30-2006, 01:18 AM
Okay, back to the thread. The Americas are pissed at Putin because Chavez bought Russian aircraft instead of de-modified F-16.

SC Harrison
07-30-2006, 10:03 PM
It's too late, Robert. As soon as you digress, that's it. No attention span at all here.

Death to all digressors! Sorry. I got a little carried away. More anti-Russia scare tactics:

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2005%20Opinion%20Editorials/November/2%20o/Western%20pressure%20on%20Syria%20strengthens%20Ru ssian%20influence%20in%20the%20Region%20By%20K%20G ajendra%20Singh.htm


Russian diplomats assured the Israelis that the promise made by Putin in his April visit that it would not provide Syria with arms that could disrupt the balance of power in the region would be kept. One Russian diplomat accompanying Lavrov joked that Moscow would not disrupt the absence of balance, apparently referring to Israel's military superiority over its Arab neighbors. In Israel, they react nervously to such jokes.




During his January visit to Moscow Syrian President Bashar Assad had signed an agreement to purchase surface-to-air missiles despite protests from Israel and USA`. He said that "these are weapons for air defense, meant to prevent aircraft from intruding in our airspace. To mark the historic Syrian visit, Russia announced that it would write off 73% of US$ 13.4 billion in debt owed by Syria from the days of the USSR. Russian President Vladimir Putin said this created "opportunities for long-term cooperation".


In end September the Syrian armys chief-of-staff General Ali Habib during his four-day visit to Russia held discussions to further upgrade his countrys weapons and further strengthen defense cooperation between Moscow and Damascus. He discussed with Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov ways for maintenance and modernization of Syrian military equipment by Russian experts, the training of Syrian military officers in Russian military academies from 30 to 60 and future purchases of Russian weapons, a Russian defense ministry statement said. General Ali Habib also visited a weapons factory specializing in high-precision anti-tank rockets in Tula region south of Moscow which produces small arms, active armored systems and Kornet-E anti-tank missiles.

SC Harrison
11-17-2006, 04:01 AM
I was going to post this on the Iran thread, but the damn thing had migrated from off-topic Russia-bashing to even more off-topic Cheney-life-expectancy predictions. Whatever...grist for the mill:

http://www.security-policy.org/papers/2000/00-F3.html

But Putin's most important role may have been a role in one of the most important missions of the KGB: the attempt to steal technology from the West and thus save the Soviet Union from losing the Cold War. Until 1990, Putin reportedly headed a secret department in Dresden which inserted spies among groups of highly specialized East German scientists who wanted to emigrate to the United States and West Germany, according to Focus magazine.
* * *

It was one of the most important operations of the KGB and its First Chief Directorate during the 1980s. The intelligence gathered illuminated the rapidly growing high technology gap between the East and West, documented in a series of secret KGB reports in the early 1980s. The issue broke into the open in May 1984, when Chief of the Soviet General Staff Marshal Nikolai Ogarkov publicly warned that the West's military high technology was outpacing that of the Soviet Union.

Attempts by Putin's department and others to infiltrate and steal the technology quickly proved inadequate. The underlying technology was too complicated and rapidly evolving to be effectively reverse engineered. In turn, the KGB determined that the only effective way to acquire the technology and expertise was to attract Western investment and technology transfer to the Soviet Union. This set the stage for the KGB -- and Putin's -- next operation: The Soviet economy could handle neither a huge infusion of technology nor investment. It had to be restructured. And so the agency helped launch perestroika. And an opening of relations with the West was needed: glasnost.

By 1986, KGB officers were actively involved in constructing the economic infrastructure that would attract Western investment. KGB operatives began to funnel state and party resources out of the Soviet Union through KGB residencies in foreign countries, with the initial intent of cycling this cash back through the new banks and joint ventures. Putin's position with the KGB placed him at the heart of these theft-for-hard-currency schemes.


Old news, but I wonder where these scientists are now? Here's some other stuff:

http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/2002/0211.htm

As the CIA report of last week points out, "Russia continues to be a major supplier of conventional arms. Following Moscow's abrogation of the Gore-Chernomyrdin agreement in November 2000, Russian officials stated that they see Iran to be a significant source of potential revenue from arms sales, and believe Tehran can become Russia's third largest conventional arms customer after China and India."

Needless to say, the building of Iran into a regional military power with modern weapons and nuclear missiles is problematic for the West's oil supply sources in the Gulf region. Is Russia aiming to weaken the West's position in the Middle East?

Col. Stanislav Lunev, a high-ranking military defector from Russia recently wrote of Russia's actual intentions. According to Lunev, Russia and China are both attempting to undermine world stability. "Such alleged friends as Russia and China," wrote Lunev in a Jan. 13 essay, "continue to challenge America's influence and goals."

In December Russia's State Duma ratified a treaty with China that amounts to a military alliance against the United States. In Lunev's words, this treaty "dramatically reinforces Beijing's claims on Taiwan and strongly supports Chinese military preparations, which are directly mostly toward the U.S."

It is more than likely that last week's CIA report does not go far enough in describing Russia's support for America's enemies. It can be argued, in this context, that the real nature of Vladimir Putin and his regime has not been fully grasped. Too much benefit-of-the-doubt has been given, and now the danger grows as Anatoly Chubias chortles happily about Russia's new opportunities.

Not that you need my permission (oh great and mighty Mods), but you can go ahead and splurf (yes, I made that up) this over to the Politics thingie.

English Dave
11-17-2006, 04:10 AM
Russian women are hugely intelligent and largely wasted on ''Western'' males.

Phone me Nadia!

Unique
11-17-2006, 04:18 AM
"...the Brazilian government is planning to become an exporter of enriched uranium..."

SC Harrison
11-22-2006, 07:16 AM
I've been hearing a little about this on the radio for the past few days. Be careful which old friends you meet for lunch:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6164284.stm

Mr Litvinenko had been investigating the murder of Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya, an outspoken critic of Mr Putin and Russian policy in Chechnya, who was shot dead at her Moscow apartment building last month.

Speaking to the BBC last week, he said a contact had approached him to say they should talk, and they arranged to meet at a restaurant in Piccadilly.

"He gave me some papers which contained some names - perhaps names of those who may have been involved in the murder of Anna Politkovskaya - and several hours after the meeting I started to feel sick."

In a book, Blowing up Russia: Terror from Within, Mr Litvinenko alleged that agents of the KGB's successor, the Federal Security Service (FSB), co-ordinated the 1999 apartment block bombings in Russia that killed more than 300 people.

Russian officials blamed the explosions on Chechen separatists and in that year the Kremlin launched a new military offensive on Chechnya.

This is horrible and all that, but...ex KGB agents who've written scandalous books should know better than meeting contacts in a sushi bar. Everything's going fine, and, the next thing you know, somebody starts singing karaoke. It's just not a smart thing to do, if you ask me.

Bravo
11-22-2006, 07:51 AM
this just goes to show, that reading spy novels can save lives.

oswann
11-22-2006, 10:22 AM
I've been hearing a little about this on the radio for the past few days. Be careful which old friends you meet for lunch:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6164284.stm

Mr Litvinenko had been investigating the murder of Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya, an outspoken critic of Mr Putin and Russian policy in Chechnya, who was shot dead at her Moscow apartment building last month.

Speaking to the BBC last week, he said a contact had approached him to say they should talk, and they arranged to meet at a restaurant in Piccadilly.

"He gave me some papers which contained some names - perhaps names of those who may have been involved in the murder of Anna Politkovskaya - and several hours after the meeting I started to feel sick."

In a book, Blowing up Russia: Terror from Within, Mr Litvinenko alleged that agents of the KGB's successor, the Federal Security Service (FSB), co-ordinated the 1999 apartment block bombings in Russia that killed more than 300 people.

Russian officials blamed the explosions on Chechen separatists and in that year the Kremlin launched a new military offensive on Chechnya.

This is horrible and all that, but...ex KGB agents who've written scandalous books should know better than meeting contacts in a sushi bar. Everything's going fine, and, the next thing you know, somebody starts singing karaoke. It's just not a smart thing to do, if you ask me.


Litvineko is now dying in hospital after ingesting too much poison which will probably be blamed on Chechen separatists too. Putin is an ex KGB colonel who is succeeding again in turning Russia into Bizzaro World.


Os.

oswann
11-24-2006, 10:03 AM
He's now dead. (http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2006-11-23T190339Z_01_L23193689_RTRUKOC_0_UK-BRITAIN-POISONING.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-C2-NextArticle-1)

Os.

SC Harrison
11-24-2006, 07:56 PM
Crap. I was hoping he might recover like Yuschenko did. Here's more:

http://my.earthlink.net/article/int?guid=20061124/45667c50_3ca6_1552620061124-1569126518

"He had a mission to uncover what he felt were crimes his former colleagues had committed," said Nekrasov, who spoke to Litvinenko just before he lost consciousness. He said Litvinenko told him: "The bastards got me, but they won't get everybody."

Litvinenko worked for the KGB and its successor, the Federal Security Service, or FSB. In 1998, he publicly accused his superiors of ordering him to kill tycoon Boris Berezovsky and spent nine months in jail from 1999 on charges of abuse of office. He was later acquitted, and in 2000 sought asylum in Britain, where Berezovsky is now also living in exile.

Friends said Litvinenko had been on a quest to uncover corruption in the FSB and unmask the killers of another trenchant critic of Putin's government, the investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya.

On the day he first felt ill, Litvinenko said he had two meetings, the first with an unnamed Russian and Andrei Lugovoy, an-KGB colleague and bodyguard to former Russian Prime Minster Yegor Gaidar.

Later, he dined with Italian security expert Mario Scaramella to discuss the October murder of Politkovskaya.

Scaramella said he showed Litvinenko an e-mail he received from a source identifying Politkovskaya's killers, and naming other targets, including Litvinenko and himself.


It's one thing to accept that a crime has been committed and steps need to be taken to discover the perp, but to say:

But the Russian leader said British medical documents did not show "that it was a result of violence, this is not a violent death, so there is no ground for speculations of this kind."

reveals that Putin is at least not interested in finding out what happened to Litvinenko, if not determined to bury the issue. Compare this to how he would (probably) react if a pro-Russia activist had died mysteriously, and his words take on a different meaning.

SC Harrison
11-24-2006, 08:30 PM
In memory of Anna:

http://www.economist.com/obituary/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8023316

SHE was brave beyond belief, reporting a gruesome war and a creeping dictatorship with a sharp pen and steel nerves. It may be a chilling coincidence that Anna Politkovskaya was murdered on Vladimir Putin's birthday, but her friends and supporters are in little doubt that her dogged, gloomy reporting of the sinister turn Russia has taken under what she called his bloody leadership was what led to her body being dumped in the lift of her Moscow apartment block.

Mr Putin, condemning her murder four days late, said she had minimal influence. Yet Miss Politkovskaya was often threatened with death. Once Russian special forces held her captive and threatened to leave her dead body in a ditch. She talked them out of it. In 2001, she fled briefly to Austria after a particularly vivid death threat scared not her, but her editors at Novaya Gazeta, one of Russia's few remaining independent papers. In 2004, on her way to the siege of a school in the North Ossetian town of Beslan, where she hoped to mediate between the Chechen hostage-takers and the Russian army, she was poisoned and nearly died.

This time there was no mistake. She was shot in the body and the head. A pistol was left by her sidethe blatant hallmark of a contract killing. She was well aware that the authorities might have her murdered, but in conversation she would brush this aside, saying that her sources were in much more danger than she was. Journalists had a duty to report on the subject that mattered, she said, just as singers had to sing and doctors had to heal.


One can only marvel at the sheer bravery and determination of these folks. How do we, as Americans (and other free peoples), benefit from these examples of extraordinary behavior in pursuit of the truth? By taking the time to seek our own truths, and not allowing complacency to lull us into accepting what is artfully prepared for our consumption.

Bartholomew
11-24-2006, 09:18 PM
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-reagan.jpg

Not to spoil the surprise, but I'm buying you all one for Christmas.

oooo

No. I want one!

blacbird
11-25-2006, 10:59 AM
I think George needs to bring Vladimir back to the ranch and have a heart-to-heart, and maybe a boot-to-@$$:

You forget: When he first had Vlad over to the ranch, he looked into his heart, and saw that he was a good man. Now, if that's not something on which to base foreign policy, I don't know what is. Somebody tell Mrs. Litvinenko.

caw.

SC Harrison
11-25-2006, 08:37 PM
You forget: When he first had Vlad over to the ranch, he looked into his heart, and saw that he was a good man. Now, if that's not something on which to base foreign policy, I don't know what is. Somebody tell Mrs. Litvinenko.

caw.

We're lucky to have a seer as a President.

Oh, look who just got ushered into the WTO:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061119/pl_afp/usrussiawtotrade

"I congratulate you," US President George W. Bush told his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin just hours after the signing. "It's a good agreement for the United States, Russia and the international trade community."

"This creates a favourable background for all our activities, including solving complicated international problems," he (Putin) told reporters.

The US leader also told Putin that Washington had lifted sanctions imposed on Russian military aircraft maker Sukhoi for providing weapons-related material to Iran, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told reporters.

US business groups are urging Congress to move swiftly on granting Russia "Permanent Normal Trade Relations" (PNTR) status and to abolish Cold War-era limits imposed on commerce with the former Soviet Union.


Guh.

SC Harrison
11-26-2006, 07:55 AM
So, what gives with you and bbird? What is it about Putin that you so dislike, or am I misreading you?



No, you're not misreading me. Putin isn't just a guy who used to work for the KGB/FSB, he's the real deal. Meaning, he was recognized by some pretty bad dudes within the ranks of the FSB, the Oligarchy and elements of the former Russian mafia to be "just like them", which is why he is where he is today. Read this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/06/AR2005060601723.html

But Putin was not a born president. He commanded no mass following, articulated no grand vision for his country, had never been elected to public office. At the moment when Yeltsin publicly anointed him his chosen successor in 1999, polls showed his popularity rating at just 2 percent. He was the creation of one of the most extraordinary political projects in history -- "Project Putin," as some of those in the Kremlin came to call the effort they were enlisted to run.

But if the Yeltsin clan viewed him as a loyalist they could control, they were wrong. The project had a life of its own. A few months after his election, Putin gave a speech at a closed-door ceremony at the Lubyanka headquarters of the old KGB. The occasion was a Stalin-inaugurated holiday known as the Day of the Chekist, marking the founding of the Soviet secret police originally known as the cheka . Gathered there to listen to Putin were about 300 generals from the KGB and its successor agency, celebrating the rise of one of their own.

"Instruction number one for obtaining full power has been completed," Putin announced to the generals.

The few civilians in the hall thought it was a joke.

Only later, one recalled, would they realize how serious he was.

After that, the die was cast. Determined to dominate television, the Kremlin drove Berezovsky, who controlled Channel One, and Vladimir Gusinsky, the owner of independent NTV, out of the country and seized control of both networks. No one understood better than Putin just how powerful television could be in the new Russia. "He came to power through television, and that's why, to have an independent channel that covers 65 percent of Russia, that creates a danger," the top aide said.


Putin is consolidating his power base, flooding government positions with FSB loyalists, bringing the Oligarchy under his control through intimidation, saturating the airwaves with propaganda, and now he's going to bring hundreds of billions in commerce into his coffers via the WTO.

Meaning: he's making sure that what happened before won't happen again. And make no mistake: looking out for Russia is not the same thing as looking out for Russians. That part means nothing to guys like Putin.

blacbird
11-26-2006, 10:28 AM
Anybody who thinks Putin is going to quietly step aside when his second term is up, owing to the "term limits" in the current Russian law, is somebody who'd probably buy one of my novels.

caw

Bartholomew
11-26-2006, 12:54 PM
Anybody who thinks Putin is going to quietly step aside when his second term is up, owing to the "term limits" in the current Russian law, is somebody who'd probably buy one of my novels.

caw

In Soviet Russian, Book Reads You.

SC Harrison
11-27-2006, 07:40 AM
Quick edit: read this and tell me: does Putin sound like an old-fashioned Cold Warrior to you, as he's tries to embrace the west?http://sg.news.yahoo.com/061122/3/450aq.html

Actually, he does. Not one of the shallow fat Politburo types, but one of the lean masters of misdirection that permeated the KGB of a few decades ago.

Look, Bird. It's natural to want someone of power to be true to their words, but that is merely a construct of our own hopes. Just like Cyrus Vance, "Leonid Brezhnev is a man who shares our dreams and aspirations" listened with hope guiding him instead of common sense.

Putin's machine needs money, and he will say anything to get it. Don't believe it. Believe what you see, like the "forged documents" that were "discovered", giving him an excuse to squeeze Poland. Think about that for a minute or two, and see if any light bulbs go off.

I've been a Russia-watcher for a long, long time. I've studied the KGB's various approaches to mis- and disinformation, and most of them aren't very subtle, if you ignore the flowery language and pay attention to what they really are after. And yes, they want many of the same things our government does, and yes, we do a lot of questionable stuff too.

But that's an argument for a different thread, right? :)

MattW
11-28-2006, 04:00 AM
Who killed Alexander Litvinenko? And was it becaue of his information about Anna Politkovskaya?

Interesting thing I heard about him - he tipped off UK authorities about a plot to kill Putin. Would the FSB want to kill someone who did that? If so, were they under orders, or acting to hide something else?

I'm honestly fascinated by this all...

SC Harrison
11-28-2006, 05:59 AM
Who killed Alexander Litvinenko? And was it becaue of his information about Anna Politkovskaya?

Interesting thing I heard about him - he tipped off UK authorities about a plot to kill Putin. Would the FSB want to kill someone who did that? If so, were they under orders, or acting to hide something else?

I'm honestly fascinated by this all...

Very fascinating. Here's some more:

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=152937

"Litvinenko didn't die from stomach pain," Mario Scaramella, one of the last to see Litvinenko alive, told daily newspaper Corriere della Sera Saturday. "He was killed because of everything he knew.

Asked by the paper if he wanted police protection, Scaramella said: "I'm not asking for anything. But there is no doubt it was the Kremlin. And as I am the only one to have collected all his information..." He left the statement unfinished.

Good luck, Mario...

According to British media, Scaramella met with Litvinenko in a London sushi restaurant on November 1 and showed him emails indicating that the FSB, the successor to the KGB, was considering using force against critics of President Vladimir Putin.

British paper The Guardian published Saturday whatit said were extracts from the emails.

"All SVR (Russian foreign intelligence service) officers are sure that PG (journalist Paolo Guzzanti) and MS (Scaramella) still live closely with 'enemy No 1 of Russia' -- (self-exiled oligarch) Boris Berezovsky and his 'companion-in-arms' -- first of all A. Litvinenko," one read.

And more:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/251106Litvinenko.htm

It is understood that he had special responsibility for countering attempts by the Russian mafia to infiltrate the security services. In 1998, he declared his failure at this task. At a press conference he accused the FSB, then headed by Mr Putin, of ordering him to assassinate Mr Berezovsky. In turn charged with corruption by Moscow, Mr Litvinenko fled to London and continued his onslaught with a book, The FSB Blows Up Russia, in which he accused his former employers of murdering 300 people in 1999 by demolishing apartment blocks with explosives and blaming the attacks on Chechen rebels.

MattW
11-28-2006, 04:39 PM
Sounds like a good book! 2 rival factions in the FSB, both brutallly efficient, but one is self-serving and corrupt.

oswann
11-28-2006, 05:51 PM
Putin is dangerous for anyone who says anything against him and his politics. The tactics are not particularly subtle (from financial ruin to prison and/or death) and I can't believe he and the henchmen are managing to convince even people here of their innocence.


Os.

oswann
11-28-2006, 09:37 PM
He's not convincing me of anything, Os, but I'm suspicious of the press. I'm very suspicious of the way we seem to need to paint Russians in black and white instead of grey. Anyway, I'd like to post more on him tonight; hopefully I'll have a chance.

I would be suspicious of the press coming out of Russia at the moment that's for sure. Being a journalist has again sadly become a high-risk profession. Also I am not talking about Russians, I'm talking about Putin.


Os.

SC Harrison
11-29-2006, 03:24 AM
I meant Russian leaders, Os. It seems to me we never like any of them.

Gorby was alright.

I mean, he had that weird spot thing on his head, but other than that...

blacbird
11-29-2006, 03:28 AM
Who killed Alexander Litvinenko? And was it becaue of his information about Anna Politkovskaya?

Interesting thing I heard about him - he tipped off UK authorities about a plot to kill Putin. Would the FSB want to kill someone who did that? If so, were they under orders, or acting to hide something else?

I'm honestly fascinated by this all...

This is John LeCarr stuff.

caw

English Dave
11-29-2006, 04:01 AM
He's not convincing me of anything, Os, but I'm suspicious of the press. I'm very suspicious of the way we seem to need to paint Russians in black and white instead of grey. Anyway, I'd like to post more on him tonight; hopefully I'll have a chance.

Polonium can be bought off the streets like crack. If you know the right people. The Russian oliogarphs have a fiscal interest. I wouldn't jump to judge Putin.

SC Harrison
11-29-2006, 04:22 AM
Polonium can be bought off the streets like crack.

I guess you wouldn't want to use something that could only be found in the Kremlin, right? ;)

Seriously, there are many within and without Russia who would like to see Putin lose face. But that's working from the assumption that Litvinenko was not a serious threat to the FSB, and Anna Politkovskaya was off-base in her theory that FSB operatives engineered the apartment block bombing, and she was threatened/poisoned/imprisoned/threatened/shot in the head by common criminals, yada yada.

I must consume nutrients before continuing this onion-unraveling, but I will be back. :)

SC Harrison
11-29-2006, 06:41 AM
A little more detail on what Anna was investigating:

http://www.alternet.org/story/44782/

A false-flag operation is one in which an attack is carried out by one government or entity and made to seem the work of another.

The Russian bombings bear all the hallmarks of such operations, including the most well-known of these bombings, in which a car bomb was detonated in front of an apartment building in the city of Buynaksk that served as military housing for Russian soldiers, killing more than sixty residents. The attack was blamed on Chechen separatists and was used to justify attacks on suspected Chechen sympathizers and alleged co-conspirators, as well as on Chechnya itself. Other bombings soon followed, leading to then-Prime Minister Vladimir Putin declaring war on the separatist region, which had gained de facto independence following the breakup of the Soviet Union.

But it was not until the failed Rayzan bombing attempt (read this pdf! Muy importante!) that the suspected role of the Russian government in the bombings began to be alleged publicly. In mid-1999, a group of agents of the Russian Federal Security Service, or Federalnaya Sluzhba Bezopasnosti (FSB), were found placing explosives at an apartment complex in the city of Rayzan. The FSB is the Russian equivalent of the FBI, and it and the SVR are the two arms of what used to be known as the KGB. The materials used in this incident were similar to those found at the other bombings committed throughout 1999, but th FSB denied any involvement in the previous terrorist attacks and described the Rayzan bombing plot as a domestic counter-terrorism exercise.

The Russian Duma -- the lower house of the Federal Assembly -- attempted to investigate the bombings, but the Kremlin would not cooperate or provide requested documentation.


As I inserted above, click the link, then click the link for the pdf Rayzan Bombing Attempt for more details. They would kill a hundred Politkovskayas and Litvinenkos to keep this from becoming public knowledge.

oswann
11-29-2006, 09:40 AM
I meant Russian leaders, Os. It seems to me we never like any of them.

I guess if they stopped doing wacky things like bumping people off it would make the job of liking them easier.


Os.

SpookyWriter
11-30-2006, 10:17 PM
Hmm. Despite all those assassinations, I guess it's business as usual.Or maybe in spite of them they can now concentrate on other troubling issues?

SC Harrison
12-01-2006, 03:17 AM
MosNews



Bird, you're killing me. Go back and read chapter two in The Paranoid's Guide To Unraveling International Conspiracies. It plainly states that the code to use when deciphering State-run news reports is: "If they say they're not going to do something, it means they are going to damn well try."

Seriously, MosNews is a propaganda tool. Keep looking.

SC Harrison
12-01-2006, 03:29 AM
Here we go again:

http://theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20845077-2703,00.html

THE intrigue surrounding the radiation poisoning of a former KGB agent in London last week has taken another twist, with the disclosure that former Russian prime minister Yegor Gaidar is in hospital with a mysterious illness that his friends say could be another poisoning.

Mr Gaidar lives in Moscow and maintains close links with some Russian government officials but is a critic of President Vladimir Putin. He is undergoing tests in a Moscow hospital that have found no signs of radiation poisoning, but he told the Financial Times by telephone that doctors had so far been unable to identify the cause of his violent vomiting and bleeding.

In a link that would delight lovers of espionage thrillers, Mr Gaidar once employed as a bodyguard Andrei Lugovoi, a former KGB agent who met Litvinenko in a London hotel room on the day Litvinenko was apparently poisoned.

Ekaterina Genieva, who helped to organise the conference at the National University of Ireland in Maynooth, said Mr Gaidar looked pale and unwell when he came down to answer questions about Russia. After about 10 minutes, Mr Gaidar said he had to leave the room.

"I rushed after him and found him lying on the floor unconscious. He was vomiting blood and bleeding from the nose for about 35 minutes," she said.

Mr Gaidar was taken to the James Connolly Memorial Hospital in Blanchardstown, where he was treated overnight. The following morning, Mr Gaidar asked to be discharged, and after a visit to the Russian embassy in Dublin, he was put on a flight back to Moscow.

Where he lived happily ever after. Not

SC Harrison
12-01-2006, 03:53 AM
SC! You really do think he's gonna make a bid for 08, don't ya?

Maybe. He will either get the Constitution amended so he can stay:

http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=19008

Putin has argued that the country's constitution be left intact, and he is believed to be trying to anoint a successor. But some analysts have speculated that he could choose to stay if the Kremlin felt it was unable to guarantee a successor would be elected.

The commission's verdict, ruling against the proposal on technical grounds, appeared to leave open the possibility for similar petitions to be filed.

Chechnya's Kremlin-backed Prime Minister Ramzan Kadyrov told reporters Wednesday that Putin should "be president for a third and a fourth term as long as he is healthy he should lead the country."

Andrei Ryabov, an analyst with the Gorbachev Foundation, called the commission's decision "ambiguous" because it avoided a judgment on the broader issue of amending the constitution.

or take steps to ensure he and his buddies remain in charge:


http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/2006-177-10.cfm

In the most complicated scenario, which bears striking resemblance to Putin's own succession in 1999, Reddaway outlined the mechanics behind engineering both early Duma elections and early presidential elections. In this scenario, Putin would dismiss the incumbent prime minister Mikhail Fradkov over something trivial, such as rising gasoline prices, and appoint his chosen candidate, currently considered to be Dmitry Medvedev, as prime minister, Reddaway said. Then the Duma would reject Medvedev's nomination, enabling Putin to dissolve the Duma and call for new parliamentary elections. At the same time, Putin would resign and Medvedev would become both acting president and prime minister -- just as Putin did in 1999 after Yeltsin's resignation. Thus, Putin's preferred candidate, in effect, would be given a "head start" for the upcoming presidential election, with the entire "state apparatus behind him," Reddaway said.


But he will not step aside and let the chips fall where they may, and you can take that to the (World) bank.

SC Harrison
12-01-2006, 07:09 AM
you know, SC, it just doesn't fit his character. For example: he's a Russian Orthodox, not an atheist - which still goes against the Old Russian grain; and he's well-trained in martial arts. Both of these aspects speaks of someone who is indeed philisophical, very possibly respectful of power.

BTW - very interesting post.

The following is a rather extensive and in-depth article from the Atlantic, and provides much material for both the pro- and anti-Putinist:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200503/starobin

Putin's judo training taught him to control his emotions, but when he is angry his outbursts can be not only crude but breathtakingly acerbic. At a press conference in Brussels in November of 2002 a reporter from Le Monde asked him about the use of anti-personnel landmines in Chechnya. When that drew an angry retort from Putin, the reporter followed up with an even more pointed question: "Don't you think that in trying to eradicate terrorism you're going to eradicate the civilian population in Chechnya?" Putin's reply: "If you want to become an Islamic radical and have a circumcision, I invite you to Moscow, because we are a multi-talented country and have specialists there. I recommend that you have the operation done in such a way that nothing else will grow there."

The notion of joining the KGB began as a boyhood dream. Putin was under the influence, he told the compilers of First Person, of spy novels and movies: "What amazed me most of all was how one man's effort could achieve what whole armies could not. One spy could decide the fate of thousands of people." In ninth grade he went to the office of the KGB directorate in Leningrad and declared his interest in a job. He was told that the KGB didn't take people who came in on their own initiative, and that he needed some higher civilian education, such as law school. "From that moment on," Putin said, "I began to prepare for the law faculty of Leningrad University." In his fourth year at the school he was invited to join "the agencies." After graduation, in 1975, he embarked on a sixteen-year career with the KGB, mostly in the foreign-intelligence section. He left the security service after the botched 1991 coup, led by KGB hardliners, that tried to preserve the Soviet Union. The plotters had a "noble" intention, he would later say, but their method was wrong.


It is unwise to project Western notions of nobility and fidelity onto those who have lived under radically different circumstances, and draw conclusions on their character from this. We make these mistakes continuously in our foreign policy decisions, because we see their world through our eyes.

SpookyWriter
12-02-2006, 07:58 AM
Honestly BoP, you don't quite realize real Russia life or society. This is nothing new. Believe me, I've studied Russian/Urkainian life for eight years and don't have a clue. I dated Russian/Ukriane women, been to Eastern Europe and don't have a clue. I have friends in Moscow, St. Pete, Kiev, and many parts of Eastern Europe and they don't have a clue.

You can't understand the slavic mind until you've lived there or dealth with them for many years. I can, however, point you to Ukrainian and Russian writers, artist, scientist, Expats, and others who will not have a clue but can at least tell you a little bit more about life in the FSU than I.

ETA: Do you or anyone know how many Russians, Poles, Cheks, Ukraines, etc. live and work in London alone? Visit Palmers Green someday and be prepared to speak Russian. Putin could have had him killed easily to make it look like a robbery or random murder. Why go through the expense of a slow, painful death and the publicy when he could have him killed for a few hundred quid?

Did you know that in Russia and Ukraine that if you read the local papers that they (paid thugs like the Russian mob and murders) will advertise openly to take care of your problems for a few hundred dollars?


Poka,

Spooky

SC Harrison
12-02-2006, 08:54 AM
Putin could have had him killed easily to make it look like a robbery or random murder. Why go through the expense of a slow, painful death and the publicy when he could have him killed for a few hundred quid?



Because...it's a slow, painful death?

As you said, there are a lot of Russians and other former Soviet Bloc expats living in the West. If (regardless of my rhetoric, I'm not 100% sure) Putin etal did have Litvinenko killed, it may have served two purposes: silence his inquiries into Anna's death, and send a message to all that his reach is far, and he will not tolerate public accusations.

Yet, it is entirely possible that Boris Berezovsky engineered this in an effort to bring Putin down. He has lost gobs of income from his exile and having some of his businesses nationalized. Whether he did it or not, I have a feeling some evidence will be "discovered" linking him to the murder.

As usual, we will probably never know the truth.

SpookyWriter
12-02-2006, 09:08 AM
If (regardless of my rhetoric, I'm not 100% sure) Putin etal did have Litvinenko killed, it may have served two purposes: silence his inquiries into Anna's death, and send a message to all that his reach is far, and he will not tolerate public accusations.That's a stretch because Putin isn't just a head-of-state, he's also the person who has visions for Russia and the (public) murder would go against his policy of a Russia that is strong and independent of Western influence. I think you'll find (in the coming weeks of months) that Litvinenko's death was orchestrated and has nothing to do with Putin.

This behavior is not typical Russian. Just ask a few people from www.rwguide.com (http://www.rwguide.com)

It may be an interesting read what these guys have to say.

blacbird
12-02-2006, 10:09 AM
SC -

I'm completely baffled by your attitude toward Putin and Russia. 'Seems out of character. You too, bbird.

My attitude toward Putin has nothing to do with my attitude toward Russia. And isn't entirely negative, by the way. Putin is smart and tough and shrewd. More than once I've prayed for such qualities to be visited upon the current President of the United States, but, alas . . . well, that's another thread, isn't it?

Polonium-210 you don't obtain in lethal quantities from your local Walgreen's. Unless the Brits are blatantly lying, they now have good evidence of a radioactive Polonium trail on flights from Moskva. Someone highly-placed in Russia obtained that material and transmitted it, via trained and sophisticated agents, to Britain. And managed to fool a suspicious, almost paranoid, former Soviet spy, long enough to slip it into something he ingested.

Does that mean Putin ordered or approved the operation? No. But I also don't rule out that possibility.

But it is a peculiar and very exotic way to do away with someone. I find I have to ask Scott Evil's famous question: "Why don't you just shoot him?"

caw

SC Harrison
12-02-2006, 07:06 PM
Again, unlike SC -despite documenting his case well - I don't give much credence to cynical reviews of Putin, just for the reason you cited, Spooky. Russia's an unwieldy ship. It takes a very clever man to keep her to the wind.

I must say, Bird, just as my dark opinion of Putin surprises you, your take on him seems out of character compared with what I have noted from your posts on other threads.

First of all is how you virtually ignore the matter of Putin's approach to the Chechen war. When asked about civilian deaths, he makes a little quip about Russian circumcisions causing "nothing else to grow there". Hell, it appears they may have murdered many of their own citizens just to get the war off the ground.

And as to your idea that Putin must take away freedoms to battle corruption and keep Russia strong, that's just...crazy? Look, the Soviet Union was riddled with corruption back in the day, mainly (imo) because there was no freedom of the press to expose it on a local level. I mean, they even built phantom factories (which were supposed to provide hundreds of jobs for local people) that never produced a thing, because the appointed officials pocketed all of the payroll designated for the workers. Now Putin has fired all of the local, elected governors, and is appointing them instead. Which is par for his course, since he was originally appointed himself and only brought a decade and a half of espionage experience with him.


He takes away their information; he takes away their ability to vote for their local leaders; he uses heavy-handed tactics, including intimidation and prison (gulag) to keep his political opponents in line, and you admire him?

What happened to my Bird of Prey? What happened to my defender of downtrodden peoples, the voice of women and children caught in the crossfire of the war on terror, the proponent of self-determination for those the world would like to forget?

Okay, that was somewhat melodramatic. Sorry. :)

billythrilly7th
12-03-2006, 03:09 AM
Putin is a poisoner.

Thank you.

R.I.P.
Litveianeko

dclary
12-03-2006, 03:55 AM
I don't have anything to say about this, except that one of the best guys I ever worked with was a russian guy named Dmitri who had the best sense of humor, with fantastic comedy timing.

We were collecting money for an office lottery pool, when we asked Dmitri if he wanted to put $5 in.

"No," he said, in his clear but distinctive Moscovite accent. "It is a capitalist trick."

LOL.

God bless you Dmitri.

billythrilly7th
12-03-2006, 04:02 AM
Thank you so much for not bothering to read anything past the word: Putin.


Why?

Are you involved in a debate saying he isn't?

Thank you.

billythrilly7th
12-03-2006, 04:11 AM
I think Putin and every world leader need to sit together in a room and watch this...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sm-TlW9gXmk
(I miss this guy. He was goodness. At least I believed he was.)

...and when it's over, I'd bet my bottom dollar that we'd be on the right path as far as humankind and our earth is concerned.

billythrilly7th
12-03-2006, 04:59 AM
Thank you for mentioning me.
:)

But I don't know how you can say "highly unlikely."

If anything it is averagely likely or unlikely at this point.

I look forward to the Woodward and Bernstein investigation.

billythrilly7th
12-03-2006, 05:16 AM
It's all blathering at this point. Everybody hates the guy for his civil rights abuses and his pulling the plug on freedom of the press and firing all those elected officials and wanting a form of the old Soviet Union back. Read anything in the Washington Times. They hate him. Europe hates him.

I don't hate him.

I really am beginning to dislike him. I've always said that I will reserve final judgement on him until after if and when he steps down from the Presidency.

He's a bad man. He's a bitter man. A sore loser former KGB agent who can't get over that he lost the cold war. And it doesn't take a human behavioral genius to see that.

Russia will never be truly on the road being a peaceful and prosperous country until all the cold warriors are dead and they get some fresh blood in there. Until then...watch them really freaking closely.

'Nuff said.

billythrilly7th
12-03-2006, 05:42 AM
take away OUR civil liberties.

Which ones have been taken away from US?

I must have missed that.

dclary
12-03-2006, 05:45 AM
(oh billy...now they're gonna jump on that "the patriot act spells "bush is the devil" when read backward" dead horse and ride it for all its worth...

again.)

billythrilly7th
12-03-2006, 05:47 AM
(oh billy...now they're gonna jump on that "the patriot act spells "bush is the devil" when read backward" dead horse and ride it for all its worth...

again.)

Yeah. I know.
:)

But Bird seems to have some free time on his hands, so I figured I'd help him out.
;)

I'm off to watch History of Violence. I hope it's good. I'll report back.

dclary
12-03-2006, 05:55 AM
The right to keep my telephone calls to myself; the right to due process if I'm accused of being a terrorist - sound a little like Russia? The right not to ride in my car without a friggin seat belt on, the right to smoke on the friggin street - I know, I know, state thing - the right to bank account privacy. . . .

Should I keep going or maybe I should google one of those anti-Patriot Act sites and paste it.

Edit: and I don't have any time but maybe I should try to sleep tonight instead of trying to keep pumped and get more work done. You guys are a good adrenaline rush, though.

Pretty sure it was safety-monger democrats who banned seatbelt negligence and forced motorcycle riders to cover their noggins.

dclary
12-03-2006, 06:14 AM
As a rugged individualist, I demand the right to risk killing myself doing cool but stupid stuff. Damn you, soccer moms!

SC Harrison
12-03-2006, 07:29 AM
Putin may have used corruption as an excuse for removing regional governors, but gaining control of corruption and stamping it out are not necessarily the same thing:

http://www.bu.edu/iscip/vol10/Waller.html

Dresden was the second-largest East German city for the illegal stripping of state resources and laundering of hard-currency proceeds to the West, and Putin had his finger on the pulse. Some reports link Putin to the Coordinating Committee (Ko-Ko), the East German Communist Party organ that actually ran the resource theft, sale and hard-currency laundering operations. At the very least, Putin could have seen how the operation worked firsthand--a valuable experience for any Russian corruption-fighter (or his antagonist) who could see exactly how the pillaging system worked.

In St. Petersburg, as a deputy to Sobchak, Putin rose to handle the city's foreign and hard-currency operations. Investigative journalist Oleg Lurye of Novaya gazeta claims that Putin was involved in a range of questionable deals, including the "scandalous privatization of the Baltic Fleet and the Hotel Astoria in St. Petersburg," and with St. Petersburg organized crime figures.(31) City council members accused Putin of "mismanagement" of export licenses for local metals traders (in 1990, while he was still a KGB officer) and recommended that he be fired. Elsewhere, Lurye quoted from Ministry of Internal Affairs documents alleging "criminal activity--the exercise of official position for purposes of personal advancement--in regard to Putin," adding that Putin's post in the St. Petersburg city government "significantly impedes the activity of the investigative task force and allows [Mayor] A. Sobchak to feel relatively secure."(32)

Putin became Sobchak's main protector. When Sobchak himself faced corruption charges in 1996, Putin reportedly participated in arranging his flight to France on a chartered Finnair jet.(33) Sobchak did not return to Russia until Putin became prime minister.

While Putin did little if anything to combat corruption, he did everything possible to stand in the way of those who tried. He ordered Procurator General Yuri Skuratov, who was building corruption cases against members of The Family, to resign after the broadcast on state television of a video showing a man who looked just like Skuratov in a compromising position with two prostitutes. Putin publicly affirmed that the video was genuine, thus linking himself in the open to the dirty-tricks campaign.(38)


It's only "corruption" if the other guy's doing it. If it's you or your friends, it's "business".

I will be back. :)

dclary
12-03-2006, 08:00 AM
Yeah! And another thing: who keeps fvckin with Daylight Savings Time? Just keep it on SUMMER!

Pinheads.

I don't think I've slept in days. Stupid deadline. Fvck it. Better get some sleep or I won't be alive to miss it.

You're going to be like that guy in the Dilbert comics:

"I stayed up all night, and finally at 5:00 in the morning an Incan Monkey God came to me and prepared my report. Now if I can only find someone to translate his beautiful but incomprehensible language."

SC Harrison
12-06-2006, 03:26 AM
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/061204/1/458t3.html

Stranger than fiction. He has five times the amount of polonium considered lethal in his body. But he's fine. He's also Italian. Maybe it's his diet.

The Sunday Times reported that British Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett had told senior ministers that Russian President Vladimir Putin had expressed his anger at Britain's failure to gag Litvinenko after he was poisoned.

I know, right? If they're not willing or able to aid in the silencing of an outspoken dissident, what damn good are they? ;)

What a schwantz.

blacbird
12-06-2006, 04:01 AM
He's a bad man. He's a bitter man. A sore loser former KGB agent who can't get over that he lost the cold war. And it doesn't take a human behavioral genius to see that.

Sooo . . . when George W. Bush, that self-proclaimed "reader of people" looked into Putin's heart and told us he saw a "good man", he was . . . what? Jist funnin' us?

caw

SC Harrison
12-06-2006, 04:22 AM
You know, I just have a hard time believing that. Now listen to me, SC. He may have expressed upset that he was being accused of something heinous, and perhaps requested that Britain at least temper reports, but sooooo? Who wouldn't request that - ESPECIALLY - if the party in question wasn't guilty. . . . .

If he was guilty and a sinister, calculating KGBer, I would think he'd just keep his mouth shut.

Sometimes it is what it looks like. And sometimes it isn't. Who knows?

There's a reason deathbed statements are generally admissable as evidencethe dying person is not likely to leave this world with a lie crossing his lips. Meaning, the ex-KGB/FSB agent was fairly certain that Putin was responsible for his death. Whether he was tricked into believing this and was used by someone else to smear Putin remains to be seen.

I posit that Litvinenko knew a hell of a lot more about the motives of the FSB, including the motives of Putin, than any news reports that we have seen so far have revealed. All things considered, I'm willing to give the dead man a little leeway to make his case.

billythrilly7th
12-06-2006, 04:26 AM
Sooo . . . when George W. Bush, that self-proclaimed "reader of people" looked into Putin's heart and told us he saw a "good man", he was . . . what? Jist funnin' us?

caw

No. He was wrong.

Bush made a mistake with that.

He's human. He's got a heart of gold. And he's an optimist. He wanted to believe that Putin was good.

Thank you.

(Timesaver: Yeah...Bush made a lot of mistakes...IRaq...bla bla bla bla...he wanted to believe there were WMD's...etc..bla bla bla...)
:)

SpookyWriter
12-06-2006, 07:28 AM
(Timesaver: Yeah...Bush made a lot of mistakes...Lauri...bla bla bla bla...he wanted to believe there were actually beans in the chile...etc..bla bla bla...)
:):D

oswann
12-06-2006, 09:59 AM
Sometimes it is what it looks like. And sometimes it isn't. Who knows?


It's what it looks like.


Os.

SC Harrison
12-08-2006, 06:11 AM
I can't believe you people allowed my Russia thread to slip to page two. Don't you get it? That's just what they want! :)

Anyway, *op-ed warning*. Complimentary grains of salt available:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009305

In the last six years, the makeup of the ruling elite in Russia has undergone a dramatic change. Once in power, Mr. Putin filled the majority of important posts with veterans of the security services, many with ties to him dating back to his work in St. Petersburg. By 2003, the top ministers, half of the members of the Russian security council and 70% of all senior regional officials in Russia were former members of the security services. At the same time, many of these persons gained access to great wealth. Russia was already highly corrupt under Boris Yeltsin but, according to IDEM, an independent Russian think tank, with the rise in oil prices the level of corruption in Russia between 2002 and 2005 increased 900%.

The result of these developments was that Mr. Putin created an FSB ruling class. As this class became rooted, the victims of contract killers in Russia began to include some of the most prominent political figures in the country.

The most sensitive question in Russia is the provenance of the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow, Volgodonsk and Buinaksk in which 300 persons died. As a result of the bombings, the second Chechen war was launched and, in his role as wartime leader, Mr. Putin, then the prime minister, achieved enough popularity to be elected president. There is widespread belief that the real authors of the bombings were the FSB. Two of the political figures murdered in Russia in recent years were trying to investigate the bombings.

The first victim was Sergei Yushenkov, a co-chairman of the Liberal Russia Party and member of the commission on the apartment bombings. He was shot on April 17, 2003. Mikhail Kodanev, the other leader of the Liberal Russia Party, was tried and sentenced to 20 years in prison for organizing the murder. Two years later, however, Igor Korolkov, a reporter for Moscow News, learned that a video camera near the building where Yushenkov was shot captured two persons running from the building immediately after the killing. The police collected the tape but it was never included in the case filed against Kodanev.

In July 2003, Duma deputy Yuri Shchekochikhin, another member of the commission on the 1999 bombings, died after contracting an unexplained illness. Shchekochikhin, who was also a reporter for Novaya Gazeta, had been investigating the "Three Whales" furniture stores that reportedly evaded millions of dollars in import duties. A co-founder of the stores was the father of Yuri Zaostrovtsev, then a deputy director of the FSB. Shchekochikhin's illness progressed catastrophically from peeling skin to "edemas of the respiratory system and brain" and death. When Novaya Gazeta tried to investigate whether he had been poisoned, they were told that all information was a "medical secret" that could not be disclosed even to family members.

billythrilly7th
12-08-2006, 06:15 AM
This spy poisening is Putin's Watergate.

I predict a resignation before the summer.

http://media.bonnint.net/apimage/63671a68-98ff-48aa-89b2-041ed4dcaea2.jpg

SpookyWriter
12-08-2006, 06:19 AM
This spy poisening is Putin's Watergate.

I predict a resignation before the summer.

I seriously doubt it. If anything, Putin will kill the press and declare marshall law to supress the outlaws who committed the crime.

billythrilly7th
12-08-2006, 06:24 AM
I seriously doubt it. If anything, Putin will kill the press and declare marshall law to supress the outlaws who committed the crime.

Yeah, I know.

I was joshin, yo.

Although I am excited to see how well Scotland Yard does with this and if they can tie it to him.

dclary
12-08-2006, 06:28 AM
I would declarey

"Walker: Texas Marshall Law"

Then they'd be sorry.

Roundhouse kick their friggin heads into tomorrow.

SpookyWriter
12-08-2006, 06:37 AM
I swear, you guys can't sleep without boogeymen. But I can.Can what? Sleep with the boogeyman or can't sleep without the boogeyman?

SpookyWriter
12-08-2006, 06:46 AM
Can't. Putin has to keep creeping in your dreams.Putin doesn't bother me, night or day. Now this (http://love.mail.ru/photo/?anketa_id=19772821&oid=23683422&offset=0) is one Russia I need to worry about. :D

billythrilly7th
12-08-2006, 06:51 AM
I can't believe we're six pages in and noone has mentioned how beautiful Russian women are.

I wish they all could be Eastern Bloc girls.

Thank you.

billythrilly7th
12-08-2006, 07:01 AM
You can send for one or more by mail.

As soon as I sell a screenplay.

I'm gonna get me a Russian girl and/or an Asian girl.

:D

SC Harrison
12-08-2006, 07:41 AM
You can send for one or more by mail.

Knowing my luck, I'd answer the door and there'd be a dumpy grandma standing there wearing a babushka and clutching a half-eaten loaf of black bread while grinning widely at me so I could see all five teeth. (shiver)

I'm such a pushover, instead of yelling, "I want my two hundred dollars back!", I'd probably drive her to the bus station and buy her a ticket to Boca.

MattW
12-08-2006, 08:14 AM
Russian women don't age well.



That's it. Move along.

SC Harrison
12-08-2006, 10:09 PM
I have a question if anybody knows. If polonium is so lethal, and it appears to have been tracked through jets and hotel rooms, could the murderer still be alive? I doubt it.

Traces have been detected here and there, and Scaramella seems to have a high level in his body, but he's on my short list of possible suspects anyway.

They believe Litvinenko ingested the polonium 210 and it did irreparable damage as it coursed through his system. Some of the traces that have been detected may have emanated from his body, and some probably leaked during transport before he was dosed. It's a good bet the actual murderer will have traces from the handling, which is (or should be) one of the reasons the Brits are in Russia now. In order to contract a lethal dose, he would (probably) have to be exposed to unshielded material for an extended period of time (stupid), or actuall ingest some (even more stupid) like Litvinenko did.

Just remember: if someone is found and dies from Polonium 210, that doesn't necessarily mean he was the killer. ;)

SC Harrison
12-09-2006, 03:49 AM
Yeah, but there's more to it, SC. I mean his wife tested positive and they claimed it wasn't due to exposure to him.

I don't know. Bizarre. Looking for a radioactive hitman. That should be easy enough, especially if he glows.

This stuff is nasty, Bird. A tiny amount can heat up quickly to 500 degrees Celsius. Litvinenko was basically cooked from the inside out. I'm not sure how much trace Polonium could/would escape from his body during this time, but I imagine some would.

Burns hot as hell, but only has a half-life of 138 days or so. After that, detection of where it had been may be extremely difficult. Others who came in contact with it might contract cancer in the next few years, but determining the cause of said cancer may also be difficult. The Brits need to work fast on this one...

MattW
12-09-2006, 06:28 AM
How many defector/critic/journalist victims are we looking at so far?

Somebody put a bodyguard on Barishnikov. That man is a TREASURE!

SC Harrison
12-09-2006, 07:25 AM
How many defector/critic/journalist victims are we looking at so far?



I've actually lost count, which is kind of scary in its own way.

Let's see, there was the two guys from the commission investigating the apartment bombings, then Anna who was doing her own investigation of the same thing, and then Litvinenko who was investigating her death. That leaves a few more who must die so they can (try to) tie this thing up in a nice little "conspiracy of the misguided" bundle.

Steve's prediction: Scaramella's belief that he will survive his situation will prove erroneous, and the former bodyguard (Lugovoi, I think) will commit suicide after writing a note explaining why he flipped out and committed all the murders.

Unique
12-09-2006, 07:30 AM
The Radioactive Hitman - great title.

MattW
12-09-2006, 07:36 AM
I've actually lost count, which is kind of scary in its own way.

Let's see, there was the two guys from the commission investigating the apartment bombings, then Anna who was doing her own investigation of the same thing, and then Litvinenko who was investigating her death. That leaves a few more who must die so they can (try to) tie this thing up in a nice little "conspiracy of the misguided" bundle.

Steve's prediction: Scaramella's belief that he will survive his situation will prove erroneous, and the former bodyguard (Lugovoi, I think) will commit suicide after writing a note explaining why he flipped out and committed all the murders.Does he make scale models of the crime scenes? If not, this story doesn't hold a candle to CSI...

oswann
12-09-2006, 11:14 AM
How many defector/critic/journalist victims are we looking at so far?

Somebody put a bodyguard on Barishnikov. That man is a TREASURE!

I think the number is up to twelve.

Os.

SC Harrison
12-09-2006, 07:08 PM
More on the perils of real journalism in Russia:

http://www.frontlineclub.com/words-and-pictures/articles/from-the-frontline/death-of-a-critic.html


It was only when I returned to Moscow and, with an American colleague, Doug Birch, who had been with me in the Caucasus, was invited to an interview at the Lubyanka, that alarm bells began to ring.

Deep in the corridors of the slab-like building, the nerve centre of Lavrentia Berias infamous purges of the 1950s and so much other Soviet repression, a senior official sauntered in in a worn grey suit.

So you are the journalist who was shot up in Chechnya, the FSB man started with a knowing look. How many times do we have to tell you people not to travel there without our escorts?

My mind raced. How did the FSB know about the shooting in Chechnya? Were they behind it? Were they capable of shooting western journalists? If they were not involved, then how did they know about the incident?

During the last trip I made to the Caucasus before leaving Russia I worked on another story with a local journalist called Fatima, a mother-of-two.

The story was about the killing and torture of innocent civilians by the local FSB and police. We found plenty of evidence.

To punish Fatima for working with foreign reporters, local FSB agents abducted her and burnt cigarettes into her fingers. A key interviewee we talked to later went missing, presumed dead.

Unfortunately, with Putin in the Kremlin, such abuses have become the norm.

SC Harrison
12-09-2006, 07:38 PM
I'm not sure about the credibility of this publication, but maybe one of our UK members can advise? Anyway, this is a group you don't want to get on the wrong side of:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=418820&in_page_id=1770

A ruthless assassin known as Igor is being hunted over the poison murder of a former Russian spy that yesterday threatened to spark a fully-blown diplomatic row.

The trained killer - part of a group of ex-KGB spies called 'Dignity and Honor' - was named in a document passed to police by Alexander Litvinenko shortly before he lost consciousness and died.

(if the guy who poisoned him handed him this document, well...)

Dignity and Honour - named after the motto for the Russian secret services - is a shadowy group of ex-KGB spies and assassins allegedly waging a war against critics of President Vladimir Putin.

Little is known about the group which is said to be a mercenary organisation available to carry out tasks for the Russian government - or for hire by private individuals.

It appears to have links to other KGB veterans' organisations - one of which is led by Putin's former station chief when he was a spy in East Germany during the Cold War.

The group has its headquarters on a well-known Moscow street and claims to represent retired agents from the secret services and the police.

The group is suspected of being used for "deniable" operations required by Russian secret services but which would cause too much scandal if they were ever linked to the government.

It is said to employ freelance hitmen who also work for the secret services.


I'm now having second thoughts about my future vacation to Moscow. I'm a serious coffee drinker, and (with my luck) this is the kind of place I would walk into and say, "Hey! You folks have a bathroom in here? My back teeth are floating!"

SC Harrison
12-17-2006, 09:09 AM
The richest bodyguard in the world:

http://www.axisglobe.com/article.asp?article=1152

Since November 20, one of the most intriguing personages in the abovementioned list is Andrei Lugovoy. He is interesting as such, because he had once served in one of the most privileged and classified bodies of the Russian special services, being in the secrets of several key figures of the first post-Soviet decade in the history of his country. He had been in a close contact with then high-ranking representatives of the foreign security bodies. But all the abovesaid is not the main point. Important stage in his career was linked to two oligarchs, who had enormous influence within the entourage of the first Russian President Boris Yeltsin, and who found themselves in disgrace and fled abroad when Vladimir Putin came to power. It is noteworthy that while working with the oligarchs, Lugovoy did not break up ties with his former colleagues, who were still in service. Then, after the change of power, he stayed in Russia, unlike Litvinenko, and became a businessman, whose range of activity included security sphere. At this stage Lugovoy continued keeping in touch with the fugitive oligarchs, making no secret of this fact. He claims that such contacts did not provoke any interest of the Russian secret services.

It is not certainly known what was Lugovoy engaged in after his release from prison in the autumn 2002. Italian daily La Repubblica claims that for some time he headed Berezovsky's London security service and then opened a private detective agency in Moscow. According to the Russian newspaper Izvestiya, "recently Lugovoy was an employee of Badri Patarkatsishvilis protection service".
In turn, from a performance Lugovoy on the Ekho Moskvy radio, it is possible to conclude that the last years he was engaged in business, in particular in the sphere of security. Quite probably, each of these reports contain a share of truth, and last four years Lugovoy rendered private services in the security sphere, and Berezovsky and Patarkatsishvili were registered among his clients. It is confirmed by what Litvinenko had told shortly before his death, according to his friends. He reportedly told then that Lugovoy was the owner of "a private security bureau in Moscow and had the capital of 1 million dollars. Litvinenkos friends believe that such money Lugovoy could earn only with the assistance of the Russian secret services.
As concerns his present activity, Lugovoy told the Ekho Moskvy that he was one of proprietors of the Russias largest kvass manufacture factory in Ryazan area, owning the Pershin trade mark. However, in other part of the same performance it was mentioned that members of the Berezovskys family "till now address us concerning security and we provide it not only in the territory of Russia". Almost simultaneously, in an interview to The Sunday Times, Lugovoy has added that the Pershin company has control share holdings in the sphere of security, soft drinks and wine, and it is estimated in 100 million dollars.

This guy is all over the place. It looks like he's earned his way into the money somehow, and it could be by making problems go away...

SC Harrison
12-25-2006, 08:30 PM
I saw this pop up for a few seconds on the news last night:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/25/world/europe/25italy.html


ROME, Dec. 24 (AP) An Italian who met with a Russian former K.G.B. operative the day the man fell ill from radiation poisoning was arrested on Sunday, the Italians father said.

The accusations of international arms trafficking and slander against the Italian, Mario Scaramella, were not believed to be directly related to the investigation into the poisoning death of the former Russian agent, Alexander V. Litvinenko.

The Italians father, Amedeo Scaramella, said his son was arrested in Naples after returning from London. Rome prosecutors have accused him of international arms trafficking and slander, and he is being taken to Rome, his father said.

Mr. Scaramella has been gathering information for Senator Paolo Guzzanti, the former chairman of an Italian parliamentary commission that examined past cases of K.G.B. infiltration in Italy. Mr. Guzzanti said the Italian accusations against Mr. Scaramella appeared to be unrelated to the poisoning.

Last month, the Milan daily Corriere della Sera published excerpts of what it said was a wiretapped January phone conversation between Mr. Scaramella and Senator Guzzanti, during which Mr. Scaramella was quoted as telling Senator Guzzanti that he could not get information that showed that Romano Prodi, who became prime minister in May, had been a K.G.B. agent.

A few days later, Mr. Prodis office announced that he would take legal action against unidentified parties who had defamed his character.


I've seen a few articles that alluded to the possibility that Scaramella has close ties to the Russian FSB, and it looks like he's got a few different games going. I'm not saying he poisoned Litvinenko, but I won't be inviting the Scaramellas over for tea and crumpets, that's for sure. I'm...not even sure what crumpets are, but Mario won't be getting any at my house. :)

SC Harrison
04-12-2007, 02:32 AM
Hmmm:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/03/wlitvin03.xml

Pyotr told the Rossiya, the Kremlin's most loyal television channel, that Litvinenko had offered him 40 million in 2003 to claim that he had been ordered by the Russian intelligence service, the FSB, to kill Mr Berezovsky in London.

"You just say you were sent to murder Berezovsky with poison placed in a pen," Pyotr quoted Litvinenko as saying to him.

At the time Berezovsky was trying to fight off an attempt to extradite him to Russia on embezzlement charges and Pyotr, who also lives in London, said that the assassination claim helped the oligarch secure political asylum in Britain.

Pyotr claimed that he refused the bribe but later made an audio tape confessing to the plot after psychotropic drugs were slipped into his coffee.

The witness, identified by the Russian newspaper Kommersant as Vladimir Teplyuk, suggested that Litvinenko could have been killed because he knew about the fake plot and claimed that he, too, feared being killed.

Russian prosecutors, pursuing their own investigation into the murder, interviewed Mr Berezovsky, who employed Litvinenko, in London last week. They have asked to question at least 100 other witnesses.

That's...not as far-fetched as it sounds.