PDA

View Full Version : Aikido



whistlelock
07-26-2006, 09:16 AM
Anyone familiar with the different styles?

Kushiel
07-26-2006, 09:25 AM
This topic looked lonely so I thought I would respond. Sadly I do not know much about Akido other then the fact I saw it preformed once and fell in love with it; which is not a hard accomplishment since I pretty much love all things Japaness. I am going to be taking classes in Akido come next month; I am really looking forward to it.

I also deeply appologize for spelling Akido wrong in the title.

tiny
07-26-2006, 09:35 AM
Nope, but I have trained in several other forms. Personally I think any form is good as long as you cross train into another. All forms have their weaknesses. I've been training in Krav Maga and karate for about six years, both of which I instruct now. I've also trained in Jiu Jitsu, boxing, and Muay Thai. If you choose a good stand up form, make sure you complement it with a ground form. You'll be a more rounded fighter in the end.

whistlelock
07-26-2006, 10:08 AM
This topic looked lonely so I thought I would respond. Aw, thanks man. I appreciate that.


and thanks too Tiny. I was hoping to get some easy-sleasy research done here but, ah well.

In my current project my protag has taken up Akido and I was hoping to throw some jargon in. I guess it'll have to wait until a second draft when I've learned some of the jargon myself.

Looks like it's off to Half-Priced Books in the morning.

Birol
07-26-2006, 10:25 AM
What kind of jargon?

I can move this into the Story Experts forum. You'd get more and better responses there.

alleycat
07-26-2006, 10:36 AM
I have a copy of Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, which is very good. I would recommend it.

Opty
07-26-2006, 10:47 AM
Aw, thanks man. I appreciate that.


and thanks too Tiny. I was hoping to get some easy-sleasy research done here but, ah well.

In my current project my protag has taken up Akido and I was hoping to throw some jargon in. I guess it'll have to wait until a second draft when I've learned some of the jargon myself.

Looks like it's off to Half-Priced Books in the morning.


I know there are like 9 animal forms, but I'm not sure of any aikido-specific jargon.

dclary
07-26-2006, 12:52 PM
Whistle:

Aikido.

Great resource for you is:

http://www.aikidofaq.com


Keep in mind that what Seagal does is far more aikijutsu than aikido, but that's because true aikido is very non-cinematic.

dpaterso
07-26-2006, 03:05 PM
Not wanting to argue Western spellings of Japanese words, but I thought Seagal taught hard style Hapkido.

Tho' I'd Google-check on the spelling of a particular discipline before I let any of my characters use it. :)

-Derek
My Web Page - shameless vampyre fiction & other shameless writings. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)
Take the critiques you get with a grain of salt. Invariably, some of the critics will be kooks, bitter curmudgeons, or complete fools. ~odocoileus

rtilryarms
07-26-2006, 07:19 PM
I practiced Aikido. not sure I can give you any more info than available on the web. Traditional Aikido had very few variances. There were some sub-styles which were spawned by popular instructors but the basic defensive philosophies were the same. I was mostly interested in the Kendo and Kenjutsu side which was also taught.

Aikido, for my money, was the best style taught, and i just about went around the whole spectrum of martial arts.

dclary
07-26-2006, 09:20 PM
Not wanting to argue Western spellings of Japanese words, but I thought Seagal taught hard style Hapkido.

No. Definitely not. Hapkido is a Korean martial art -- essentially the "throwy-jujitsu-y" style of Korea, whereas aikido is distinctly Japanese. Seagal married a Japanese daughter of an aikido master, and eventually was allowed to teach at her father's dojo -- leading to the Black Belt magazine articles (and his early claim to fame) that he was one of the only Americans to ever teach the art in Japan.


Aikido's uniqueness, of course, is that as designed at taught, it is truly a passive art. It takes great amount of discipline and training to allow an opponent to defeat himself with the help of your timing, balance, leverage and momentum.

Stew21
07-26-2006, 09:22 PM
my only experience in martial arts is that my 3 year old takes tae kwon do and has a yellow belt. (soon to be yellow and green)

dclary
07-26-2006, 09:30 PM
I'm sorry.

Stew21
07-26-2006, 09:32 PM
I took Tai Chi for a while. Does that count?

dclary
07-26-2006, 09:34 PM
Tai Chi I can respect. Realize, of course, that Tai Chi was watered down substantially so that some aspect of the martial arts could survive fanatical communism's attempt to destroy all pre-Mao culture.

Tae Kwon Do, however, especially as marketed and presented today, is nothing more than the kicky-punchy version of the same "rob loving parents blind" scam as dance and gymnastics classes.

Bravo
07-26-2006, 09:35 PM
tae kwon do is okay for lil kids.

but for the love that is martial arts, take him out before he is a teen and put him in something that actually teaches a guy something practical.

Stew21
07-26-2006, 09:37 PM
tae kwon do is okay for lil kids.

but for the love that is martial arts, take him out before he is a teen and put him in something that actually teaches a guy something practical.

well I definitely appreciate that advice. He loves the class he is in and is doing great in it. (I especially like the discipline and respect he is taught) He especially likes the being loud and kicking! ;)

I wondered where to go beyond TKD. You'll have to advise me on it more.

dclary
07-26-2006, 09:38 PM
I don't even think TKD is good for kids. Unless you find an instructor who's old-school (pre-olympic tkd). Otherwise you're just feeding your kid a lot stuff that's going to do more harm than good if he ever has to use his skills on anything more threatening than ez-break wood slats.

Bravo
07-26-2006, 09:41 PM
well I definitely appreciate that advice. He loves the class he is in and is doing great in it. (I especially like the discipline and respect he is taught) He especially likes the being loud and kicking! ;)

it is good for that.

although for kids, i think karate is the best, as in it teaches discpline and all that, but is still realistic. it's good for entry level and for advanced students.



I wondered where to go beyond TKD. You'll have to advise me on it more.

i suggest something that deals w/ grappling. i know he likes kicking, but grappling is a hell of a lot of fun too. :)

jujistu &, aikido are good, but i bet if your place teaches tae kwon do, it also teaches hap kido. i def. recommend doing that.

after doing that for a few years, move on into muay thai and/or kung fu.

that's pretty much the story of what i did. well, i havent done muay thai yet, but that's next.

dclary
07-26-2006, 09:42 PM
Stew, you're in the STL, right? You've got a very nice variety of styles to pick from. Tell me about your kids... What's their body composition? Tall and lanky, short and stubby, fast and lithe, slow but strong?

While all styles have their individual merits, some are much better suited to particular compositions than others.

Stew21
07-26-2006, 09:45 PM
Thanks Bravo and Dclary!

He goes to World Martial Arts Academy. Young Chul Rho (if you've hear of him) is Grand Master. Their director is great. I know of a teacher who has his own place close to where I live that does karate classes, but not sure if they will start with a 3 year old. How hard is it to "unteach" a youngster what he was taught in one type of M.A. and move them to another?

Bravo
07-26-2006, 09:47 PM
Thanks Bravo and Dclary!

He goes to World Martial Arts Academy. Young Chul Rho (if you've hear of him) is Grand Master. Their director is great. I know of a teacher who has his own place close to where I live that does karate classes, but not sure if they will start with a 3 year old. How hard is it to "unteach" a youngster what he was taught in one type of M.A. and move them to another?

you dont unteach. at 1st its annoying and frustrating b/c you think you know something better than the new teacher, but later on, the kid is going to be able to integrate all of that knowledge in a real world setting.

good stuff.


P.S> anyone know where i can learn how to do the zidane headbutt??? :D

Stew21
07-26-2006, 09:47 PM
dc - my three year old is tall thin and fast as hell. He's doesn't have a lot of body mass at all. Most of the time if other parents in his class comment on him they say, "my god, he's fast!" that's definitely Kyle.
Jack is still too young - he's built like a brick shithouse. short, full body, long waist. Lots of mass on him, but that may change, he's still young.

Stew21
07-26-2006, 09:49 PM
whistle - I"m sorry I hijacked your thread!

I'll smack myself for you, if you like!

dclary
07-26-2006, 09:54 PM
Oops... company meeting. I'll have an answer for you in about 90 minutes.

whistlelock
07-26-2006, 11:29 PM
Whistle:

Aikido.

Great resource for you is:

http://www.aikidofaq.com


Dclary, at this point in our relationship you haven't learned to gloss over my poor spelling then there may be no hope for us.

And thanks for the link.


Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere

and thanks for that too.

I haev some action passages to write, and I want to give them an authentic feel but not drag them down with too much techinical speak.


whistle - I"m sorry I hijacked your thread!
it's okay. I don't mind.

dclary
07-27-2006, 12:59 AM
Whistle, there's only one man I don't spell check, and you know who that is.



Stew:

Let start by clarifying (clary-fying) something up front. There's nothing wrong at all with Tae Kwon Do. At its root, it is as valid a martial art as any. My issue with it, is that Korea has officially designated Tae Kwon Do as a sport (much like Japan did with Judo a half century ago), and because of this, it is taught as a sport to children.

The problem with that approach, is that kids are going to be given a distinct impression that these are skills that can save their life if they ever get in a fight. But at the same time they're going to be taught the strict rules of what techniques are allowed, which aren't, etc. In many tragic cases, a person taught a martial art as sport is going to step into a fight with a subconscious set of rules he's going to follow, and the other guy isn't. Think of John Cleese versus Kevin Kline in A Fish Called Wanda.

The style I studied was a self-defense style. I learned eye-gouges, how to dislocate a knee or break a collar bone at will; things I'd never once find a practical use for on the tournament floor. I was taught all that tournament stuff too, but as an afterthought. Our focus was "this will save your life, it'll teach you discipline, it will teach you culture."

As I said, some TKD instructors still teach old-school (pre-Olympic TKD) Tae Kwon Do, but you're better off -- if you want to keep the same basic style and Korean ethics (and form names) -- looking for a Tang Soo Do instructor in your area. Tang Soo Do is a Korean style very similar to Tae Kwon Do, and is the style Chuck Norris first learned. Check out the Gateway Tang Soo Do club in St. Louis here (http://sfasports.net/Martial_Arts.htm).

For your thicker kid, he's never going to be that happy trying to learn to kick things over his head. Give him a foundation in some hard-core Japanese styles, maybe. Something like Shotokan or Shorin-Ryu. There's an Okinawan martial arts school in St. Louis that you can investigate here (http://www.okinawan-karate.com/home.shtml).

In the end, these choices are yours, and eventually will be your childrens'. If they enjoy where they're at, and you're ok with the possible false sense of security they may get from having these skills (or if you feel their instructor is doing a good job of separating sport from self-defense), then by all means let them stay.

That's my 2 cents. I hope I was a little bit of help for you.

Birol
07-27-2006, 01:44 AM
I am going to move this over to the Experts forum, gang.

whistlelock
07-27-2006, 01:47 AM
sweet. Now I've invaded the Experts forum too.


Resistence is futileless.

gromhard
07-27-2006, 02:33 AM
dclary with all due respect...
1. Tae Kwon Do as a sport is GREAT for kids.
a. Teaches them to be flexible and graceful.
b. It allows them to compete with minimal risk of damage.
c. It IS a sport, allowing them to learn sportsmanship, not eye gauges.
d. I've won several fights using tae kwan do kicks. Yes, even above my
head.

Yeah Tae Kwan Do might not be practical in a fight but neither is akido or karate or tang so do or hapkido. None of em, since 1993 it's been proven that basically a HS wrestler can defeat any opponent that's not trained in jujitsu. All the chuck norris, steven seagal, jet li crap is just for movies.
We've had legalized no-holds-barred fighting for the past 13 years in every major country and the ONLY three martials arts to make appearances with any ammout of success are Jujitsu, Judo and Muay Thai. Along with scientific wrestling and boxing.
I've watched amatuers stomp mudholes in karate black belts.

You want self defense, try Tai Chi and mace. You wanna win a fight then you better work either your fists or your submissions.

For that woman's kids I recommend Tae Kwan Do heavily. It's great fun and it's great for gymnastics, dance and future combat sports, Kickboxing, Thai boxing, Boxing.

Karate is probably the WORST art for a kid. Karate's all about learning to take pain and kill your nerve endings. Adhere to the most rigid of forms and in the end, what do you get out of it? A hand that can't hold a pencil correctly and the ability to break boards...to quote Bruce Lee "boards don't hit back."

A LOT of the venom directed at tae kwon do is that out of shape american adults can't do the moves. Case closed, I've seen it a thousand times, no one who is without the personal ability to throw a decent head kick ever has anything nice to say about tae kwan do, they're jealous.

I recommend moving from Tae Kwan Do to Jujitsu which is hands down, proven time and time again to be, the most effective martial art in existence for single combat.
For fighting multiple opponents...use a gun.

P.S. Akido is cute, it won't win a fight though against anyone with any ammount of training in throw defense. It's half an art...Akido was created using only one of the nine ryus(schools) of Taijutsu, known in America as Ninjutsu.

rtilryarms
07-27-2006, 02:44 AM
Kids love to kick. TKD is perfect for that. At that age discipline and fitness are all that count. Ask any wrestling team, no matter how good you are, if you gas out, you will lose.
So keep them in TKD as long as they will go because the fitness part is the edge they will need for confidence and any altercations up until adulthood.


I loved taking on the kickers. Getting points on a spectacular kick was their primary goal. The showoffs were intimidating but any cool-headed competitor with some skill can make them look foolish. (Making people look foolish is my specialty)

Once we start getting older, and stop the 3 hour-per-day workouts, we are actually worse off for having learned the hard martial arts. Those kicks do us little good in our forties, no good in our fifties and if you think Chuck Norris lifted a leg above his knee his last two seasons then, well then kudos for great camera work.

The only thing I don't find useful from Aikido are the hours of learning how to fall. we were thrown by supervised amateurs or by practiced professionals.
In a street fight everything is random.
Tai-Chi was good for the mind and body flow of randomness.

Martial Arts are just like music. either ya got it, or ya don't.

Today I concentrate on three styles:
Mikey-Do and
Smith and
Wesson

rtilryarms
07-27-2006, 02:56 AM
dclary with all due respect...


I agree with almost everything you say with a little bit of prejudice.
1 - Aikido is way up there with Judo and Jujitsu. But boxing and wrestling are superior as long as their conditioning is maintained. Otherwise, I give the advantage to techniques in various martial arts.
2 - Some people just "Have it". When the case comes about where everything is equal, then the viscous circle of - Martial Arts hates Boxers. Boxers hate Wrestlers and Wrestlers hate a good Martial Artist.

gromhard
07-27-2006, 03:20 AM
I agree with almost everything you say with a little bit of prejudice.
1 - Aikido is way up there with Judo and Jujitsu. But boxing and wrestling are superior as long as their conditioning is maintained. Otherwise, I give the advantage to techniques in various martial arts.
2 - Some people just "Have it". When the case comes about where everything is equal, then the viscous circle of - Martial Arts hates Boxers. Boxers hate Wrestlers and Wrestlers hate a good Martial Artist.

1. Then how come Akido never shows up in Pride FC or the UFC?

2. I agree, it's been that way ever since the very first student said to his friend. "My sensei could beat up your sensei" probably 10,000 years ago.

rtilryarms
07-27-2006, 03:40 AM
1. Then how come Akido never shows up in Pride FC or the UFC?


Because I am talking about survival and real-life defense .
The best defensive styles do not work well in aggressive competition.

In the ultimate fighting arena, all I can say is that thankfully, I never learned that wrap-my-ankle-locked-legs around my opponent when I am on my back move.

Martial Arts was not supposed to be a sport. It was part of life. To use it effectively required some honor. Tradition and history were part of that life. That's why I never accepted any belt other than my first white belt in Judo when I was 12. I did that after listening to a Bruce Lee interview about the meaning of belts during his Green hornet days. That was before the David Carridine fervor.
Mine got dirty with use and age. When people ask me what the highest belt I achieved, I say "filthy and very smelly."
They don't get it.

dclary
07-27-2006, 02:38 PM
Grom, I'm not here to step on any toes, or argue about which style is best. That's an old, old debate that's never going to be answered fully.

I'd love to see your evidence indicating that high school wrestlers can defeat anyone not trained in ju jitsu. I can speak of several direct examples to the contrary.

I'd also like to point out that
Karate is probably the WORST art for a kid. Karate's all about learning to take pain and kill your nerve endings. Adhere to the most rigid of forms and in the end, what do you get out of it? A hand that can't hold a pencil correctly and the ability to break boards...to quote Bruce Lee "boards don't hit back." is absurdly stereotypical, and in the modern era mostly untrue.


A LOT of the venom directed at tae kwon do is that out of shape american adults can't do the moves. Case closed, I've seen it a thousand times, no one who is without the personal ability to throw a decent head kick ever has anything nice to say about tae kwan do, they're jealous.
I think you've got a double negative in there that's preventing you from saying what you meant to say. I know what you meant, I just think you're wrong here. I explained my specific issues with TKD, and none of them had anything to do with the fact that it tends to emphasize kicking. In fact, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and said as much in one of my first editorials at Karate/Kung Fu Illustrated.


For fighting multiple opponents...use a gun. Who's lecturing who on practicality?

dclary
07-27-2006, 02:44 PM
Then how come Akido never shows up in Pride FC or the UFC?


Aikido is a passive, non-aggressive style. LOL at wondering why an aikido master hasn't taken his style to the ring to compete with it.

Personally, I don't see why a person doesn't learn as much as they can, in a wide swath of disciplines. It's really the best way to learn what styles work best with your body type.

Martial arts are about much more than simple competitive brawling. As I told Stew, if you're ok with the fact that Tae Kwon Do has abandoned the martial half of the style for the art half, then by all means, it's great for your kids.

jvc
07-27-2006, 06:20 PM
Aw, thanks man. I appreciate that.


and thanks too Tiny. I was hoping to get some easy-sleasy research done here but, ah well.

In my current project my protag has taken up Akido and I was hoping to throw some jargon in. I guess it'll have to wait until a second draft when I've learned some of the jargon myself.

Looks like it's off to Half-Priced Books in the morning.

What Jarogon are you looking for, I know a few bits, let me know if I can help.

There is a book called Angry white pajama's, which is a very good read, I can't remember who wrote it though. I shall have a think and get back to you on that.

gromhard
07-27-2006, 10:45 PM
Grom, I'm not here to step on any toes, or argue about which style is best. That's an old, old debate that's never going to be answered fully.

I'd love to see your evidence indicating that high school wrestlers can defeat anyone not trained in ju jitsu. I can speak of several direct examples to the contrary.


MMA has proven it.

I used to read the Tao Te Ching and hang on every word senseis told me. I'd believe all the stories about former kung fu masters and karate masters and their seeming magic abilities with chi and all that crap...finally after spending the better part of my life doing that I realized it was all crap.
Each martial style exists because it purports to teach it's practitioners to win fights. Not just survive them but WIN. Anyone who wants to survive a fight need only work on their running away.
Tae Kwan Do, Karate, Akido and Kung Fu practitioners get their *** kicked in a real fight. The moves aren't practical and the throws only work if 1. the guy you're throwing has trained in the same art or 2. He's out of control and completely skill less.
I rememeber the first time I tried to do a taijitsu throw in real life, oni kadaki, throwing the giant, There's a similar throw in akido but i think it's called something else....well all the guy did was center his weight and he stuffed my throw and laughed. So I had to start punching him in the face.
After that I took a few years and re-evaluated the martial arts and came to the conclusion that for the most part they were about getting soccer moms to drop checks to out of shape senseis.
I mean seriously, watch any UFC and Pride and then imagine your sensei in that ring trying to "defend" himself, he'd get his *** kicked.
And if you're not going to be able to win fights with the stuff then what point is martial arts? If you want philosophy or zen or fitness there are a thousand different and more effective ways to achieve it.
If you want philosophy read Plato, if you want survivalism buy a gun and if you want to kick someone's ***, study MMA. But traditional martial arts have been obsolete ever since Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris taught everyone that they might have to someday defend against a kick.
IMO of course.
I really don't see non-mma martial arts surviving in this country for more than 10 more years, maybe a little longer in Asia because of the historical traditions and institutions.

PS. About the HS wrestlers thing. Yes, I see how that was kind of a sweeping and untrue statement. Let me put it this way, anyone who has been trained in scientific wrestling has the ABILITY to defend against and stop in non-jujitsu martial art. (with the possible exception of judo.)
Does that mean that they will? No...but I can tell you who I'd bet on.

rtilryarms
07-27-2006, 11:31 PM
Grom,
You are making delusional statements. The fact is, a skilled fighter will win regardless of the style.
As far as highschool wrestlers automatically winning against other styles, this is simply not the case. My Son was part of a 3X State Champion HS team. Our school had the 2nd winningest record of all sports. 2nd only to the Brandon (FL) HS wrestling team who ducked us for years.
I helped train them.
I boxed with the entire team and sparred using Aikido and various other techniques. I showed them the ease of redirects. It was quite effective. I even pinned a 4X State Champ at my weight.
I was a HS wrestler but I never had a lesson except my streetfighting. I went undefeated my Freshman year.

The skill of the fighter greatly outweighs style. If one has the skill, he or she can win in a variety of ways. i now practice nothing but Freestyle.

jvc
07-28-2006, 01:54 AM
I'm not going to get drawn into another debate (one which I avoid like the plague), but I will respond to a few of these points.


First when it comes to UFC, most of the people who take part in it will freely admit they usually have skills from a variety of styles. Styles in this type of competitions, is counterproductive. The skill of any particular fighter is usually what wins it. If they are good, they are good. If they are bad, then well they are bound to get their heads bashed in.


Most Karate fighters will not normally train against grappling and only ever stay upright, which is where they are most comfortable. This make ssense if they are in their own style competitions, or for instance, the K1 in Japan. When they enter the UFC, they convince themselves that they can beat a grappler without training to defeat a grappler. In my opinion those karate fighters who do this and enter the UFC are substandard as they simply don't train correctly for this sort of competition. Style doesn't come into it - training does.


A side note on grades in martial arts:-


Time for a sweeping generalisation.


American fighters (and martial artists in general in the US) tend to like to take the short cut, in the fights and in their own training, which is why in America you have so many 8th/9th/10th dans who are 25 year olds.

People don't like sweeping statements, which is why I never use them.


This is something you can take to anyone who claims a high grade. If an instructor tells you he is an 8th dan or higher and he isn't at least 50 years old (60 if it's 9th dan) and has been training for, oh let's say 35/40 years, then the instructor is a complete fraud and you should laugh at them / ridicule them and tell them so.



Okay back to styles;


Karate/taekwondo/jujitsu/judo etc, are all good, so long as the instructor is good. You should never take your child to a martial arts club with the belief they will learn how to defend themselves in every situation that may occur.


If we take karate clubs; they are not good for self defence. On the other hand they are very good at teaching a child to be able to defend themselves if they have a good instructor and the club is good.

Unfortuanly there are a lot of clubs and instructors out there, which are just no good.


Self defence is not the same as being able to defend yourself. Defending yourself comes in many forms, which I won't go into now as I haven't the time (maybe later).


Karate clubs (martial arts clubs) can teach a child many things. It is a way of improving co-ordination and manual dexterity (sp?). It is a way of improving your child's confidence, which is a big part of defending yourself. It teaches discipline. Discipline comes in many forms, from self-control to calming a boisterous child down, to learning when to speak and when to keep quiet. Karate can teach structure which a lot of children could do with. It helps to focus the mind, which in turn improves their concentration. This can help away from the club at school, for example.

On top of all that it can also be fun. It can help you make new friends and learn a new language and can help you in understanding other cultures (if it is a traditional club).


All of this though depends on the club and the instructor and not the style.


I have heard for decades people slagging off one style or another, and defending their own styles. It just proves how little someone really knows when they say this. I personally never listen, and I would advise others to do the same, if they come out with statements such as :- this style is better than that, my style is better than yours, that style is rubbish, etc.

Styles don't mean as much as the instructor. A good instructor is worth their weight in gold.





MMA has proven it.
I used to read the Tao Te Ching and hang on every word senseis told me. I'd believe all the stories about former kung fu masters and karate masters and their seeming magic abilities with chi and all that crap...finally after spending the better part of my life doing that I realized it was all crap.
Each martial style exists because it purports to teach it's practitioners to win fights. Not just survive them but WIN.

This is rubbish. All styles do not teach to win fights. An instructor at a club may tell you this. And as I said above, if he/she is telling you that his style is best because it can win fights against other styles, he is just a bad instructor.


I can name many styles which don't ever go into competitions and don't teach to win fights, in competitions or on the street. And there is a big difference in these I can tell you.



Anyone who wants to survive a fight need only work on their running away.


This I agree with. Miyagi once say - best defence, no be there.



Tae Kwan Do, Karate, Akido and Kung Fu practitioners get their *** kicked in a real fight. The moves aren't practical and the throws only work if 1. the guy you're throwing has trained in the same art or 2. He's out of control and completely skill less.


A sweeping generalisation here. I have trained in all three and I have been in 'real' fights' where I didn't get mu *** kicked. I know many people who have trained in these styles and have not had their *** kicked. Recently in the UK it was reported in the papers that a 14 year old boy who had been doing karate for 2 years was mugged. He punched the guy in the face and the guy fell down straight away. The kids then ran away and got help.


People don't win fights because they make it too complicated. A style like shotokan, for example, teaches basics over everything, and very simple basics at that. But they train them so much, that when the need arises, all you will ever need to think about are those basics and nothing else. When you start searching for this hold, that hold. That pressure point, this pressure point. This throw, that throw. Then you will not be able to defend yourself. Always look for the simple solution to a fight and don't ever overcomplicate anything. DOn't stick around after you have got the upper hand, because an upper hand can often turn out to be a lull and then you get your *** kicked.


Traditional karate teach one thing above all else. Block/counter and then get out of there.


I call this the KISS principal - Keep it Simple Stupid.



I rememeber the first time I tried to do a taijitsu throw in real life, oni kadaki, throwing the giant, There's a similar throw in akido but i think it's called something else....well all the guy did was center his weight and he stuffed my throw and laughed.


Aikido sometimes overcomplicates things. I have noticed that unless you are very skilled in Aikido then you should never use any of it in a fight. I have known top rated Aikido practitioners who ahve defended themselve, but they never used the throws/locks etc. They kept it simple.


A throw is a primary example of something someone who wants to defend themselves, should never use. It is just too complicated to be used effectively.


On the other hand, Aikido teach a lot of useful stuff like movement and evading. The only problem is when you are practicing with an opponent in Aikido, they usually help you out a lot and the punches they use have no baring on real punches. You cannot learn to block punches, unless you first know how to throw them.



So I had to start punching him in the face.


The very principal of KISS.



After that I took a few years and re-evaluated the martial arts and came to the conclusion that for the most part they were about getting soccer moms to drop checks to out of shape senseis.


This I have seen many many times. And it just goes to show that you should pick your club and instructor carefully and do the research first. Don't just drop your kids off at the nearest or most conveniant club.



I mean seriously, watch any UFC and Pride and then imagine your sensei in that ring trying to "defend" himself, he'd get his *** kicked.

And if you're not going to be able to win fights with the stuff then what point is martial arts?


Not everything in martial arts is about winning a competition. Competitions, even the full contact ones or no hold bars ones like the UFC, have no baring on real life. I'd like to see some of these grapplers try their moves in a real fight against a couple of guys. In a real fight, you drop down to the ground and you are just being asked to kicked by the other guy.


Plus some of those drops to the ground are good on the padded floor of the UFC, but would you seriously use them on concrete?


If you want philosophy or zen or fitness there are a thousand different and more effective ways to achieve it.


Perhaps, but they can be good in martial arts clubs as I have stated above. I wouldn't recommend an instructor who preaches though. And I have seen too many of these.



If you want philosophy read Plato, if you want survivalism buy a gun and if you want to kick someone's ***, study MMA. But traditional martial arts have been obsolete ever since Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris taught everyone that they might have to someday defend against a kick.

Yes plato is good for the old philosophy. Guns are also very good, but not all country's allow you to own a weapon. And even if they do, I wouldn't recommend this as a way to go.


I shall post my reply to the study of MMA in another post. I want to look up a nice story which is pretty good.



I really don't see non-mma martial arts surviving in this country for more than 10 more years, maybe a little longer in Asia because of the historical traditions and institutions.


If you are referring to America. I would disagree. Traditional clubs will be around a lot longer.



PS. About the HS wrestlers thing. Yes, I see how that was kind of a sweeping and untrue statement. Let me put it this way, anyone who has been trained in scientific wrestling has the ABILITY to defend against and stop in non-jujitsu martial art. (with the possible exception of judo.)Does that mean that they will? No...but I can tell you who I'd bet on.

I don't know anything about high school wrestling as we don't have it here, so I can't comment on something I know little or nothing about.

gromhard
07-28-2006, 08:37 AM
JVC We seem to be in agreement on most things. We've seen the same good and bad aspects of the martial arts culture it seems. We only seem to be in disagreement on the value of traditional martial arts.
I don't want it to seem that I'd like to see karate or Kung fu die off as arts. Nothing could be further from the truth. But what I do think needs to happen is a re-evaluation of martial prowess when it comes to street fights/self defence/comepition.
You said it best, KISS.
To me, this means getting rid of the board punching, the rigid styles, the preacher sensei mentallity(I mean the guys do karate, they're not prophets),the nunchucks and swords, the belts, the guis, the bowing and screaming out wierd japanese words, the nerve deadening and the like.
For people who want to learn a traditional art for fun or for culture, they can study the finer points of Wu Shu Kung Fu or Akido...but for people who want to study combat they should study only the most effective techniques from the different martial arts and leave the mysticism and draconian tradition at home.

Oh and "High School Wrestling" is traditional or scientific wrestling. Like they have in the olympics.
Where are you btw, UK?

And we TOTALLY hijacked this guy's thread.

jvc
07-28-2006, 05:57 PM
I shall take each point one at a time.

Board breaking

Not all traditional clubs break boards. When it comes to traditional karate, very few clubs, if any will do this. Now this could be different in America, though.

If you take Shotokan for example (a very traditional style), they will never break boards, if they are a true traditional club. It is not in any syllabus I have ever seen.

Taekwondo are different, they do it. Do I agree with board breaking, no, I don't see the point.

But just because you may have seen it at a club, doesn't mean this is the norm.

Rigid styles

This is actually a fallacy and something MMA and Bruce Lee fanatics throw about without knowing what they are talking about, just so they can justify what they are doing.

There are very few rigid styles out there. Karate for example is a dynamic form and has been changing ever since Funakoshi introduced it to Japan in 1922. The karate we see today is not the same as a hundred years ago, or even fifty or thirty years ago. It is in continuous development.

Just because a style is traditional, doesnít mean it is rigid.


Preacher instructors

The preacher instructors do annoy me, but I imagine if you are in America, you probably have it worse than I do in the UK.


Weapons

The nunchaku and swords, well what can I say. A lot of instructors think they can use these and simply canít. I train in Iaido, a traditional Japanese sword art, and it is very different to what I see on the movie screens. Those without any knowledge of how to use these weapons, usually just copy what they see on TV and think what they are doing is right.

Belts

Belts can be very beneficial to students and instructors. They can give students a goal to aim for, which keeps them interested and they get a sense of achievement. For the instructor, it can help break down the syllabus into easy sections so they can develop a studentís ability over a period of time.

This system is seen in many different forms. Take the school system. Why not do away with all exams apart from a degree. Do children really need to have 15 years of schooling broken up into many parts? Why canít they go into school at five and start on the degree program straight away?

From what I gather (you can correct me if Iím wrong here), in America you have to pass each grade or you canít progress up to the next year (is that right?). Schools do this so that a student isnít overwhelmed with everything at once, and can learn and develop their basic skills before moving up and onto the more difficult stuff. I have likened this to the building of a house. You have to first build the foundations before you can build the walls and the roof. If you start with the walls, then they will just fall down, without a good foundation.

This concept is the same in karate/martial arts clubs with the belt ranking system.


Giís

The giís (karate uniforms) are useful. Every sport has their own version and for you to say they should be abolished just shows your lack of knowledge. In your own MMA, you have a uniform. You wear sports wear/shorts/T-Shirt, and you wouldnít go in wearing jeans, that would just be impractical. In football, you wear a specific uniform Ė you wouldnít go and practice football in a business suit, would you?

It is the same in baseball and when you go to work -- you wear a specific uniform. So why shouldnít karate practitioners have a specific uniform to wear when they are training?


Bowing

Bowing is a sign of respect. It is common place in Japan and if you have a good bow, you are treated in turn with respect. Are you saying that showing respect is a bad thing?

Again, for example, football has this. Donít you shake hands with your opponents?

Respect among children, for other children or for adults, can sometimes be lacking. The bow in karate teaches that respect and enforces it, which is a very good thing. It teaches respect for your teachers, respect for other peoples culture, respect for your fellow classmates and respect for your fellow competitors. Are you saying showing respect is a bad thing?


Using Japanese words

Screaming out weird Japanese words. Well I hardly think they scream. There is a difference to giving an order in Japanese and yelling at a child. If you have seen an instructor yelling at a child, then he is a prat, and you should remove your child from their class, post-haste.

In traditional Karate, students learn another language - Japanese. I see nothing wrong in teaching children another language at all. Are you telling me there is?

Karate can bring people from different backgrounds together. I have trained in England, Scotland, Ireland, France, Cyprus, America, Japan and Germany, to name but a few countries. Now I do not know all the languages of these countries, but I have learnt Japanese from Karate and when I go into a club in a different country, I recognise the terms and I can easily join in and know what I am meant to do. Having a common language amongst all practitioners of karate is a good thing, it brings people together. Is this really a bad thing?


Tradition

I see nothing wrong in tradition. I could write a few thousand words on this alone. Traditions are found in all walks of life and not just the martial arts. I believe you have a tradition in America every November, I think it is called, Thanksgiving. Do I need to say more on this subject, or will that suffice? Traditions are good, it helps us remember, it helps us learn how things were once done, and why. It grounds us in the present, but always with an eye to the past. Learning about how things used to be, teaches us who we are and there is never anything wrong with a little formality.

I have just thought of this.

Every year in America, you have a state of the union address given by the president. This is tradition. Also, the president must be invited to address the house of representatives. This dates back to parliament (in the UK), where the houses of parliament must invite the monarch, the black rod knocks on the door etc and announces their precence. This is a tradition in America which is still in force today.


In closing. Just because you may think something is wrong, doesn't mean it is. And just because one person cannot see the point in something, does not mean there isn't a point to it.

MadScientistMatt
07-28-2006, 06:55 PM
Aikido is a passive, non-aggressive style. LOL at wondering why an aikido master hasn't taken his style to the ring to compete with it.

I recall once watching an akido demonstration, and one of the things that really stood out is that very few of the "attackers" actually were trying a good attack against the defenders. No feints, no sudden changes of direction - some of the attackers would telegraph a punch so badly that you could tell what they would do when they were still ten feet away. That sensei obviously had not been teaching his students how to make real attacks.

If I were looking for an akido school, I would definitely make sure that the exercises would include defending against things that seemed more real. I'm not sure if such a thing exists, but it seems that an akido school could benefit from also teaching its members a martial art that includes some more serious attacks, if only so as to have something good to defend against.

I also took tae kwon do as a kid. They didn't explain the reason for board breaking then, but I get the impression it's to demonstrate that you can put enough force behind an attack to be useful. We only did board breaking at the belt tests, not in routine practice. They also had optional self-defense class meetings that were not Olympic tae kwon do at all - more along the lines of "If someone puts you in a headlock, elbow him in the balls," or other no holds barred techniques.

dclary
07-29-2006, 01:18 AM
There's two big reasons for that, Matt.

One, and the one that most people suspect first, is because the martial artist doesn't know how to handle attacks he's not prepared for. That may be true for some, especially lower-skilled artists.

But the truer, and more likely reason, is safety. Especially in Aikido.

You know that one hip throw Seagal puts in every movie... Guy lunges with a punch chest high or so, he steps back, locks the wrist then turns his hip and the guy goes flying away into a stack of soup cans or whatever?

What you don't realize is that if the guy throwing that punch wasn't moving in perfect synch with Seagal to follow the momentum of the throw, instead of being tossed around... he'd either dislocate or break his arm.

In the same way, during demonstrations, if the attacker comes in sneaky, he runs a great risk of doing far more damage to himself than to his instructor. So he comes in straight and smooth, ready to fall the direction he gets thrown.

Birol
07-29-2006, 01:33 AM
But the truer, and more likely reason, is safety. Especially in Aikido.

As my sensei tells me (yes, in aikido), "Lori, if you break your practice partners, you won't have anyone to practice with." Alternatively, she also says, "Lori, if you get hurt, we'll all feel bad. I'll feel guilty for not teaching you properly, your partners will feel guilty for hurting you, and you will be in pain."

She often smirks when she says the latter.

dclary
07-29-2006, 01:59 AM
My instructor always asked "Are you wearing your cup?"

He never waited for the response, so it was always best if you were.