Help me understand, please....

poetinahat · Jul 16, 2006

Hi, all --

So, I've been in the Christian church my whole life, but extremely passive. I'm making some sputtering attempts to understand and get more involved. Part of this effort is reading the Bible.

Now, I've started with Genesis, as the study group I've joined is on a forced hiatus (key people away). But I've got a question early on, and there will be more like it:

Just where did Cain's wife come from?

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, but it feels as though there's a giant 'plot hole' right there.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Melisande · Jul 16, 2006

I am not Christian, but I have always been interested in religions, every kind. I used to contemplate that very question a lot, until I read "Isaac Asimov Explaines the Bible". I can really recommend that book, because Isaac Asimov breaks down the Old Testament in a very simple and plausible way; the history of the region, the dynamics of the time, and presents some really thought-provoking ideas.

I stumbled over the book at our local library, looking for something completely different, but I truly enjoyed it.

poetinahat · Jul 16, 2006

Thanks, Melisande -- I'll look around for that one!

Outside Douglas Adams, Asimov is about the only sci-fi I've ever read: the Foundation trilogy.

Saint Fool · Jul 16, 2006

Cain's wife is a 'plot hole'.

Now various denominations may have come up with their own explanations, but biblically, not a clue.

Shwebb · Jul 16, 2006

MacAllister · Jul 16, 2006

But our own Liam Jackson has a terrific book coming out with St. Martin's Press, using those OT plot holes for a jumping off point...

emeraldcite · Jul 16, 2006

Nice response, Mac.

What'll really get your goat is to ask why did God reject Cain's offering?

poetinahat · Jul 16, 2006

Good point, ec. I was wondering about that. Why?

emeraldcite · Jul 16, 2006

I think there are some really vague qualifiers in the books that come after, but never any real explanation about why God rejects his offering.

I'm up for any explanation. I've heard a few, but some of them come from other books not included in the bible.

There's the explanation that Abel gave the best of his sheep while Cain only offered his crop.

There's an explanation dealing with blood sacrifice.

There's also an explanation involving Cain's wife (which is why I brought up my last post).

Then, there's the faith answer: God knows why and we should just trust in his judgement.

It's a very interesting topic.

poetinahat · Jul 16, 2006

emeraldcite said:
Then, there's the faith answer: God knows why and we should just trust in his judgement.

But if that were the case, what would we have to learn from this answer? How would God's response to Cain enable people to better understand how God wants them to behave? What good does it do people to know God's response if it doesn't help them live better lives?

In a Christian context, I see two explanations from my uninformed viewpoint:

1) People must trust God, no matter how unfair or unfathomable His judgment appears;

2) It's only through Jesus that humans have access to the Kingdom of God. Hence, we should not expect to be able to understand any of God's actions from the Old Testament (i.e., prior to Jesus' appearance on earth).

Shwebb · Jul 16, 2006

As far as the sacrifice goes, do you think it is possible that Cain already knew what God's requirements for sacrifice were, and he didn't follow them?

Perhaps they aren't spelled out because the audience Genesis was for would already know the context, as well, so it made sense for them.

emeraldcite · Jul 16, 2006

But if that were the case, what would we have to learn from this answer? How would God's response to Cain enable people to better understand how God wants them to behave? What good does it do people to know God's response if it doesn't help them live better lives?

The object of that particular tale is that murder is wrong in God's eyes. Cain's story is an object lesson in right and wrong, although I would sure like to know the reason behind God's choices.

As far as the sacrifice goes, do you think it is possible that Cain already knew what God's requirements for sacrifice were, and he didn't follow them?

Probably, but it doesn't say that, so how are we supposed to know? Genesis gives little indication concerning what Cain knew and didn't. It said that God favored Abel's sacrifice.

Perhaps they aren't spelled out because the audience Genesis was for would already know the context, as well, so it made sense for them.

True. Or, for that audience, it didn't matter because the lesson was about murder not the correct sacrifice.

But this still causes some trouble for me: from the passage, it seems that God's judgement is arbitrary.

Why else would he choose Abel's sacrifice over Cain's? One wonders if he chose Cain's over Abel's, would the outcome have been different?

reph · Jul 16, 2006

I've seen an explanation of the rejected-sacrifice problem, interpreting the story as a metaphor about human prehistory rather than a literal account of events. This is not for biblical literalists. Abel represents animal husbandry and herding; Cain represents agriculture. Having God show a preference for Abel's offering was a way to express the higher value placed on meat and dairy products, which, with their concentration of protein, enabled societies of the time to thrive and advance faster than when grains had been the main food.

emeraldcite · Jul 16, 2006

Back to your original question:

Just where did Cain's wife come from?

One version I read speculated that Cain's wife was Abel's twin sister and Abel's wife was Cain's twin sister. I don't recall where that came from, but it was from someone's holy book.

Ah, here's a link to check it out.

Just some thoughts on the matter...

poetinahat · Jul 16, 2006

emeraldcite said:
The object of that particular tale is that murder is wrong in God's eyes. Cain's story is an object lesson in right and wrong, although I would sure like to know the reason behind God's choices.

Agreed; it's really the rejected-sacrifice problem that rattles me. How am I to know, if I make an offering to God, that it won't be rejected or un-pleasing to Him?

The lesson seems to be 'Do your best - if God doesn't appreciate your effort, cop it. What will please Him is for you to guess.'

emeraldcite · Jul 16, 2006

Agreed; it's really the rejected-sacrifice problem that rattles me. How am I to know, if I make an offering to God, that it won't be rejected or un-pleasing to Him?

The lesson seems to be 'Do your best - if God doesn't appreciate your effort, cop it. What will please Him is for you to guess.'

It's perplexing.

This whole rejected sacrifice thing bothers me more than the Cain's wife paradox.

Okay, so they mention the first man and woman. That's pretty common in creation mythologies. Then it gets male-centric from there on out. That's fine, everyone was moving from a foraging culture to aggro-centric culture and things depended on men to do the hunting, till the fields, and make the mistakes.

Got it. But that sacrifice...what was wrong with it? What made it unpleasing. If God is omnipotent, then he knew that disapproval of Cain's sacrifice would lead to the murder of Abel.

Very odd. Sadly, there is no solid textual answer.

writerterri · Jul 16, 2006

Hello!

Rob, I had the same question come up. I got a few answers, but here's what I think since the Bible doesn't say.

Where did Eve come from? Why couldn't have God made Cain a wife like that too? I makes sense to me. I don't think he married his sister. I think God, who is a mystery, used Cain's rib or created her like he did Adam, from the dust and breathed air into her and sent her to be married.

It's one of the many mysteries we have to wait until we meet God to know.

Tez

writerterri · Jul 16, 2006

emeraldcite said:
It's perplexing.

This whole rejected sacrifice thing bothers me more than the Cain's wife paradox.

Okay, so they mention the first man and woman. That's pretty common in creation mythologies. Then it gets male-centric from there on out. That's fine, everyone was moving from a foraging culture to aggro-centric culture and things depended on men to do the hunting, till the fields, and make the mistakes.

Got it. But that sacrifice...what was wrong with it? What made it unpleasing. If God is omnipotent, then he knew that disapproval of Cain's sacrifice would lead to the murder of Abel.

Very odd. Sadly, there is no solid textual answer.

I think God rejected his sacrafice as a test. We are tested all the time. It's how character is built in us and how He shapes us.

God's always a zillion steps ahead of us. He says His ways are higher than ours.

poetinahat · Jul 16, 2006

writerterri said:
I think God rejected his sacrafice as a test. We are tested all the time. It's how character is built in us and how He shapes us.

God's always a zillion steps ahead of us. He says His ways are higher than ours.

That's the thing I wonder about, though. If I've failed, I'd like to know why, so I can do better the next time! I can't get better if I don't know what I need to change.

"Honey, why are you mad?"

"If you don't know that, then I'm not going to tell you!"

(shakes head in bewilderment)

emeraldcite · Jul 16, 2006

I don't think he married his sister.

Incest wasn't outlawed until after Noah's time, I believe, but I could be mistaken on that one.

I think God rejected his sacrafice as a test. We are tested all the time. It's how character is built in us and how He shapes us.

God's always a zillion steps ahead of us. He says His ways are higher than ours.

Yeah, that's one of the common answers too [see the last option on this post ]

If this final statement is true, then the Bible would be best off with two words: Trust God.

It wastes quite a bit of space to get to that single idea.

I think people have a problem with some of these stories because it's one of those "have it both ways" situations. On one hand, the Bible is meant to be the word of God, a history of creation; on the other hand, it's meant to be a general handbook with guidelines, not laws. Then, pick one, or both of these options, to fit any question.

Either it's accurate or metaphor, but it can't be both. I think that is one of the main arguments here about Cain's wife and Cain's sacrifice rejection: what is the Bible meant to be?

Then it comes down to which branch of Christianity you live on because all the different branches ascribe their very own meaning to the text.

It becomes difficult to reconcile all these different POVs. If it wasn't meant to be thought about and discussed, questioned and dissected, pondered and theorized, then it would be more clear cut than it is.

Rather, it is vague, difficult, multi-layered, imperfect. It varies in tone and interpretation. Even God's covenent changes from the Old Testament to the New.

If it wasn't meant to be questioned, then the Bible would contain just two words: Trust God.

writerterri · Jul 16, 2006

poetinahat said:
That's the thing I wonder about, though. If I've failed, I'd like to know why, so I can do better the next time! I can't get better if I don't know what I need to change.

"Honey, why are you mad?"

"If you don't know that, then I'm not going to tell you!"

(shakes head in bewilderment)

One thing we fail to realize is that it's His job to change us. There's a lot of I's in your last sentence. He already knows we are going to fail that's where His grace abounds. What He wants is our hearts and He will change the rest. It's automatic when He has our full hearts and attention. "Remain in me and I shall remain in you". Change just follows with out any effort from us; God does all the changing. But when we remain passive there is no work in us being done, but God is patient and will wait until we realize that then He begins to work on us and change takes place. It takes the "I" right out of it, right?

You don't need to change anything, you just need to give God your heart. He will do the rest.

writerterri · Jul 16, 2006

emeraldcite said:
Incest wasn't outlawed until after Noah's time, I believe, but I could be mistaken on that one.

Yeah, that's one of the common answers too [see the last option on this post ]

If this final statement is true, then the Bible would be best off with two words: Trust God.

It wastes quite a bit of space to get to that single idea.

I think people have a problem with some of these stories because it's one of those "have it both ways" situations. On one hand, the Bible is meant to be the word of God, a history of creation; on the other hand, it's meant to be a general handbook with guidelines, not laws. Then, pick one, or both of these options, to fit any question.

Either it's accurate or metaphor, but it can't be both. I think that is one of the main arguments here about Cain's wife and Cain's sacrifice rejection: what is the Bible meant to be?

Then it comes down to which branch of Christianity you live on because all the different branches ascribe their very own meaning to the text.

It becomes difficult to reconcile all these different POVs. If it wasn't meant to be thought about and discussed, questioned and dissected, pondered and theorized, then it would be more clear cut than it is.

Rather, it is vague, difficult, multi-layered, imperfect. It varies in tone and interpretation. Even God's covenent changes from the Old Testament to the New.

If it wasn't meant to be questioned, then the Bible would contain just two words: Trust God.

For me, I don't' even worry about that stuff. I figure someday I'll find out and the whole darn mystery will come clear.

God knows me inside and out and He's the only one who does. I just want to make sure I'm right with Him and my destiny is secure and I do something for His kingdom here on earth (my part in life) and live according to His will for me. I've had a darn rough one for sure and I'm not too good at trusting but God has never failed me as long as I keep the communication open between us and know that He is in charge.

poetinahat · Jul 16, 2006

writerterri said:
One thing we fail to realize is that it's His job to change us. There's a lot of I's in your last sentence. He already knows we are going to fail that's where His grace abounds. What He wants is our hearts and He will change the rest. It's automatic when He has our full hearts and attention. "Remain in me and I shall remain in you". Change just follows with out any effort from us; God does all the changing. But when we remain passive there is no work in us being done, but God is patient and will wait until we realize that then He begins to work on us and change takes place. It takes the "I" right out of it, right?

You don't need to change anything, you just need to give God your heart. He will do the rest.

I disagree, but it's off topic, so I'll drop it.

writerterri · Jul 16, 2006

poetinahat said:
I disagree, but it's off topic, so I'll drop it.

Perhaps I misunderstood. Sorry.

Birol · Jul 17, 2006

One of the explanations I've heard about Cain's wife deals with the combination of Biblical accounts with scientific understanding. These explanations depend on believing not that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman created, but that they were the first Christian man and woman. Starting from that assumption, the explanation is that there were other people in existence at the same time as Adam and Eve so Cain's wife could have come from them.

Help me understand, please....

say it loud

say it loud

She's the creepy-looking dude

'Twas but a dream of thee

Art is Resistance

say it loud

Art is Resistance

say it loud

She's the creepy-looking dude

Art is Resistance

Fig of authority

Art is Resistance

say it loud

Art is Resistance

It's a dorky day!

It's a dorky day!

say it loud

Art is Resistance

It's a dorky day!

It's a dorky day!

say it loud

It's a dorky day!

Around and About