Why not you and I?

Recovered from Google’s cache.
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06-16-2006, 08:56 AM

JAK

Why Not You and I?
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This is the title of a shortstory collection by Karl Edward Wagner that I'm currently re-reading. Some of the stories deal with writing and publishing.

Anyway, I was wondering if Karl was winking with the title. Grammatically speaking, should it be "Why Not You and Me?" instead of "You and I?"

You and I sounds better.
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06-16-2006, 09:30 AM

rpl

I think that whether it's grammatically correct depends on the context.

E.g.:

"Somebody ought to do something about it. Why not you and I?"

"Sombody ought to be shot for this. Why not you and me?"
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06-16-2006, 09:34 AM

soloset

My grandmother used to correct us whenever we'd say "you and me". I still have trouble with it.

Eventually, I read that if you're not sure, you should map the sentence out, at which point it becomes obvious which one to use.

"He left before you and I."
"He left before you."
"He left before I."

"He left before me."

I'm no expert, though, I just have a copy of The Little, Brown Handbook handy. I wonder if this is one of those weird pseudo-rules or if it's just changed in the last hundred years?
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06-16-2006, 01:29 PM

reph

rpl said:

I think that whether it's grammatically correct depends on the context.

E.g.:

"Somebody ought to do something about it. Why not you and I?"

"Sombody ought to be shot for this. Why not you and me?"

Click to expand...

We don't say "Me ought to be shot for this." Changing the voice of the verb from active to passive doesn't turn the subject of the sentence into an object.

This is a difficult example. I'm not sure the case of a pronoun is cleanly dictated by what happened in the preceding sentence.

[Customer to waiter:] "I'd like coffee, please."
[Second customer:] "Me too."
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06-16-2006, 01:56 PM

rpl

OK, bad example. So shoot me.
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06-16-2006, 02:07 PM

Jamesaritchie

I
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reph said:

We don't say "Me ought to be shot for this." Changing the voice of the verb from active to passive doesn't turn the subject of the sentence into an object.

This is a difficult example. I'm not sure the case of a pronoun is cleanly dictated by what happened in the preceding sentence.

[Customer to waiter:] "I'd like coffee, please."
[Second customer:] "Me too."

Click to expand...

Shouldn't this be "I, too?" As in, "I, too, would like some coffee."
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06-16-2006, 02:12 PM

Jamesaritchie

I
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rpl said:

I think that whether it's grammatically correct depends on the context.

E.g.:

"Somebody ought to do something about it. Why not you and I?"

"Sombody ought to be shot for this. Why not you and me?"

Click to expand...

Sometimes I think it's better to go with "Why not us?"
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06-16-2006, 02:21 PM

reph

Jamesaritchie said:

Shouldn't this be "I, too?" As in, "I, too, would like some coffee."

Click to expand...

Strictly speaking, it should, but customers aren't expected to speak strictly to waiters, even if the café is one block from a university.
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06-16-2006, 02:23 PM

Cat Scratch

If this is a book about writing/publishing, maybe the title is tongue-in-cheek? Like, the writer is asking in the title the very same question you are asking in this thread?
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06-16-2006, 03:22 PM

Jamesaritchie

I
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reph said:

Strictly speaking, it should, but customers aren't expected to speak strictly to waiters, even if the café is one block from a university.

Click to expand...

Yes, I was just looking at the technical side of it. I'd never say, "I, too, would like some coffee," and neither would any of my old English profs.

I have said, "I'd like some more coffee, too, please," but this is as close as I'd come.
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06-16-2006, 03:26 PM

LloydBrown

The rule is really simple. The problem is that few teachers teach it.

I is the subjective case of the pronoun.
Me is the objective case.

You use I when you're using a subject and me when you're using an object.
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06-16-2006, 05:16 PM

Jamesaritchie

teachers
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LloydBrown said:

The rule is really simple. The problem is that few teachers teach it.

I is the subjective case of the pronoun.
Me is the objective case.

You use I when you're using a subject and me when you're using an object.

Click to expand...

I don't think teachers are the problem. The teachers here do teach the rule, but as the case has always been, darned few students pay any attention at all in English class.

I can't tell you how many peole I've met, including wannabe writers, who swear they were never taught grammar in school, but when I cehck out the schools I almost always find very good grammar teachers, and years of lessons.

With math being the possible exception, I don't believe any subject in school is more despised, and more ignored, than English class.
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06-16-2006, 05:32 PM

LloydBrown

I failed English 4 years in High School. 690 on the verbal portion of my SAT, but I never did homework.

I learned extensive, intense grammar during a summer school course one year. If I had not failed the Advanced English class and taken the basic English course for 30 days during the summer, I would not have nearly the command of English I do now, and the development of my writing career could have been much different.
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06-16-2006, 09:27 PM

Jamesaritchie

English
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LloydBrown said:

I failed English 4 years in High School. 690 on the verbal portion of my SAT, but I never did homework.

I learned extensive, intense grammar during a summer school course one year. If I had not failed the Advanced English class and taken the basic English course for 30 days during the summer, I would not have nearly the command of English I do now, and the development of my writing career could have been much different.

Click to expand...

I was in college before I started paying serious attention to Grammar, but I did receive very good teaching starting in grade seven. Like most kids, however, I just tuned it out.

I almost never did homework in any class. Hated it, and simply had too much to do in the evening.

My youngest son is currently taking a summer course in English in preparation for college. He seems to be enjoying himself. I think I would have gone nuts being in school during June.
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06-16-2006, 11:06 PM

arrowqueen

He left before you and I." -did
"He left before you." - did
"He left before I." -did
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06-18-2006, 03:05 PM

Scribhneoir

Jamesaritchie said:

I can't tell you how many peole I've met, including wannabe writers, who swear they were never taught grammar in school, but when I cehck out the schools I almost always find very good grammar teachers, and years of lessons.

Click to expand...

When I went to school, official grammar lessons began in the third grade. I had been in a second/third grade combination class as a second-grader and I was intrigued by what the third-graders were doing. I could hardly wait until I got to learn grammar. Come third grade it was my turn to learn about verbs and nouns, subjects and predicates. I thought it was fascinating.

At the end of that school year we were tested and, beginning in fourth grade, I was in gifted classes. I didn't have another formal grammar lesson until eighth grade. And those eighth grade lessons came about only because our teacher discovered to her horror that we didn't know grammar. With another standardized state test coming up, she made it her mission to get us up to speed.

In the third grade, we learned how to construct a proper sentence. In the gifted fourth grade class, we went straight to writing term papers. I could write well because I was an avid reader and read well above my grade level. My classmates were pretty much the same. The teachers didn't teach basics, apparently under the assumption that we already knew them. To this day I know what's right and what's wrong, but I can't always explain it in grammatical terms.
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06-18-2006, 07:52 PM

reph

Scribhneoir said:

In the third grade, we learned how to construct a proper sentence.

Click to expand...

Funny, I don't remember any instruction in constructing a proper sentence. I attended two years of elementary school, fourth and sixth grades. We had grammar lessons, which now all seem to have been about mistakes to avoid. I remember drills on future perfect tense and such things but nothing positive about how to construct sentences in general. Maybe it all happened in third grade and I missed it.
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06-18-2006, 09:20 PM

JAK

Cat Scratch said:

If this is a book about writing/publishing, maybe the title is tongue-in-cheek? Like, the writer is asking in the title the very same question you are asking in this thread?

Click to expand...

The book is not all about writing / publishing, but does have a few stories of such. That is why I thought maybe Wagner was giving a wink with the title.

Still not sure of it.
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06-18-2006, 10:13 PM

Jamesaritchie

grammar
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All the schools in my state start official grammar in seventh grade, with only very, very minor instruction before this. The fifth and sixth grade classes do have a primer class intended to let students know what they're in for come junior high, but real instruction doesn't begin until grade seven.
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06-19-2006, 02:21 PM

Scribhneoir

reph said:

...I remember drills on future perfect tense and such things but nothing positive about how to construct sentences in general. Maybe it all happened in third grade and I missed it.

Click to expand...

Hmm. I missed drills on future perfect tense and such like. The first time I found myself doing drills on verb conjungations in various tenses was my seventh grade Spanish class. I do remember having to memorize a list of prepositions during that third grade year, though.

It was (Dave and) me.

Click to expand...

This one needs nominative case. It was I.

In standard English, a linking verb needs nominative case at both ends. "It was she who answered the phone." "It was I who [whatever]." "It was I." Of course, in dialogue, you write as the character would speak.

If you want to be grammatical, you won't say "It's me," whether a question preceded or not. "It's me" is idiomatic but not grammatical.