06-23-2006, 08:42 PM Puma
I know I've seen some posts somewhere in Absolutewrite about historical fiction and creative historical non-fiction. Is there a clear cut way to distinguish between the two? And/or - can anyone give some good examples of creative historical non-fiction? Thanks! Puma
Last edited by Puma : 06-23-2006 at 09:06 PM.
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06-23-2006, 10:02 PM JenNipps
There was an interesting discussion on the Freelance board (I think) about creative nonfiction in general. I think it would be interesting to see a correlation between historical fiction and creative historical nonfiction.
Another reminder to myself to see what I can find.
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06-23-2006, 11:25 PM stumpfoot
I think officially he is considered fiction, but check out Jeff Shaara.
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06-24-2006, 06:41 AM Puma
Stumpfoot, he who? Can you expand your prior post? Thanks. Puma
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06-24-2006, 07:40 AM stumpfoot
Jeff Shaara
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06-24-2006, 10:08 AM JenNipps
I was mistaken. The discussion on creative nonfiction was in Writing Nonfiction Books, not in Freelance. Here it is.
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06-24-2006, 02:04 PM Puma
Thanks, Jen. In what I saw on your link, the closest definition to what I'm talking about was in a post by Perdita Drury -
"On the other end of the spectrum, there's non-fiction yoked to literature... most of the facts are true but other "facts" are based on the author's speculative musings, including the incorporation of fictionalized or pure-fiction characters, while fiction techniques make the book "feel" novelistic. Think of John Berendt's MIDNIGHT IN THE GARDEN OF GOOD AND EVIL."
My issue is a WIP, almost all characters real, major events real - but the whole thing linked together by fictional events that could have happened. What is it - creative non-fiction or historical fiction? Help! Puma
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06-24-2006, 02:07 PM the1dsquared
Puma, Jeff and Michael are father and son writers. Michael wrote Killer Angels about the Gettysburg battle. He passed away and his son Jeff picked up where his father left off. I loved Killer Angels and when I heard that Jeff had written Gods and Generals (about the war prior to Gettysburg) I expected a weak imitation of the old man. Boy was I wrong! Jeff is every bit the writer his father was, in my estimation maybe better. This link has really helped me figure out where I'm going.
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06-24-2006, 02:42 PM Puma
Thanks, 1dsquared and Stumpfoot. I haven't read either book (sounds like I ought to - I got sort of waterlogged by all the Civil War stories that have been available and stopped reading them.) I will be checking out the Shaaras. Puma
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06-24-2006, 02:46 PM JenNipps
(Emphasis is mine.)
Puma,
The key there is the fictional events. Therefore, from what I'm understanding from you, it is historical fiction unless you have proof that the events actually happened.
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06-24-2006, 03:26 PM stumpfoot
I agree I think Jeff's a little better. If your tired of the civil war thing, he does a two book set on the revolutionary war called; Rise to rebellion and The glorius cause. Also one on the mexican war called Gone for soldiers. And To the last man is about WW1. By the way He's a great guy. If you go to his web site and email him questions about what ever (His books, future projects) He does real good about getting back to you personally.
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06-24-2006, 05:11 PM Puma
Response to Jen
Hi Jen - everything in my WIP is actual, real historic people and facts except for filler like clearing fields, fixing meals, making trips for supplies, etc. By major events, I meant events that happened to the people in the story - the birth of the first child, building a church, enlisting in the War of 1812 - but there are only snippets of these facts so I had to create dialogue to go with the events. Does that make your opinion any different? Puma
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06-24-2006, 06:16 PM pdr
Difficult!
If the only created pieces are linking passages like a meal or walk then it's probably Creative non-fiction.
However you say you've invented dialogue and interactions between people? Then it's probably historical fiction.
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06-24-2006, 09:13 PM Puma
What I've done is take the recorded history of a small section of property, researched the people who held the property and finally settled on it, and put it all together (the first fifteen years worth) into a book. The land was one of the original land grants made to Revolutionary War veterans - so the first chapter is the granting of the land by John Adams; but other than that fact, I know nothing about what transpired when it was granted (but I made it a short chapter). The property then changed hands several times before it was settled. The only information I have about the people who held it before it was settled is a name from the deed abstract and sometimes their location and the date of transfer. After the settlers arrived I have more information from actual records and have done a lot of genealogical research on the families plus I'm very familiar with the land area.
Does that additional information help clarify whether the book should be called fiction or non-fiction? Thanks evryone for your inputs. Puma
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Yesterday, 08:48 PM JenNipps
Honestly? No, it doesn't make my opinion different. Why?
Basically, you answered your own question. Creating the dialog is, in my opinion, the key. You don't have documented proof that what the characters are saying was exactly what they would have said. I would venture to say it might be your best guess as to what they would have said. But even with that, I would still classify it as fiction.
If you were to market it as creative nonfiction, fact checkers, editors, and the like would want a source list, which would include the dialog. In creating the dialog, you don't have that, so they couldn't accept/market it as nonfiction.
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Yesterday, 09:22 PM Puma
Thanks, Jen, pdr, etc. I had been calling the work historical fiction but some dubiety crept in after reading some of the posts in absolutewrite. I will continue to call it historical fiction but include in the queries that much of it is based on fact. Thanks again for your help. Puma
I know I've seen some posts somewhere in Absolutewrite about historical fiction and creative historical non-fiction. Is there a clear cut way to distinguish between the two? And/or - can anyone give some good examples of creative historical non-fiction? Thanks! Puma
Last edited by Puma : 06-23-2006 at 09:06 PM.
--------------
06-23-2006, 10:02 PM JenNipps
There was an interesting discussion on the Freelance board (I think) about creative nonfiction in general. I think it would be interesting to see a correlation between historical fiction and creative historical nonfiction.
Another reminder to myself to see what I can find.
--------------
06-23-2006, 11:25 PM stumpfoot
I think officially he is considered fiction, but check out Jeff Shaara.
--------------
06-24-2006, 06:41 AM Puma
Stumpfoot, he who? Can you expand your prior post? Thanks. Puma
--------------
06-24-2006, 07:40 AM stumpfoot
Jeff Shaara
--------------
06-24-2006, 10:08 AM JenNipps
I was mistaken. The discussion on creative nonfiction was in Writing Nonfiction Books, not in Freelance. Here it is.
--------------
06-24-2006, 02:04 PM Puma
Thanks, Jen. In what I saw on your link, the closest definition to what I'm talking about was in a post by Perdita Drury -
"On the other end of the spectrum, there's non-fiction yoked to literature... most of the facts are true but other "facts" are based on the author's speculative musings, including the incorporation of fictionalized or pure-fiction characters, while fiction techniques make the book "feel" novelistic. Think of John Berendt's MIDNIGHT IN THE GARDEN OF GOOD AND EVIL."
My issue is a WIP, almost all characters real, major events real - but the whole thing linked together by fictional events that could have happened. What is it - creative non-fiction or historical fiction? Help! Puma
--------------
06-24-2006, 02:07 PM the1dsquared
Puma, Jeff and Michael are father and son writers. Michael wrote Killer Angels about the Gettysburg battle. He passed away and his son Jeff picked up where his father left off. I loved Killer Angels and when I heard that Jeff had written Gods and Generals (about the war prior to Gettysburg) I expected a weak imitation of the old man. Boy was I wrong! Jeff is every bit the writer his father was, in my estimation maybe better. This link has really helped me figure out where I'm going.
--------------
06-24-2006, 02:42 PM Puma
Thanks, 1dsquared and Stumpfoot. I haven't read either book (sounds like I ought to - I got sort of waterlogged by all the Civil War stories that have been available and stopped reading them.) I will be checking out the Shaaras. Puma
--------------
06-24-2006, 02:46 PM JenNipps
Puma said:
(Emphasis is mine.)
Puma,
The key there is the fictional events. Therefore, from what I'm understanding from you, it is historical fiction unless you have proof that the events actually happened.
--------------
06-24-2006, 03:26 PM stumpfoot
I agree I think Jeff's a little better. If your tired of the civil war thing, he does a two book set on the revolutionary war called; Rise to rebellion and The glorius cause. Also one on the mexican war called Gone for soldiers. And To the last man is about WW1. By the way He's a great guy. If you go to his web site and email him questions about what ever (His books, future projects) He does real good about getting back to you personally.
--------------
06-24-2006, 05:11 PM Puma
Response to Jen
Hi Jen - everything in my WIP is actual, real historic people and facts except for filler like clearing fields, fixing meals, making trips for supplies, etc. By major events, I meant events that happened to the people in the story - the birth of the first child, building a church, enlisting in the War of 1812 - but there are only snippets of these facts so I had to create dialogue to go with the events. Does that make your opinion any different? Puma
--------------
06-24-2006, 06:16 PM pdr
Difficult!
If the only created pieces are linking passages like a meal or walk then it's probably Creative non-fiction.
However you say you've invented dialogue and interactions between people? Then it's probably historical fiction.
--------------
06-24-2006, 09:13 PM Puma
What I've done is take the recorded history of a small section of property, researched the people who held the property and finally settled on it, and put it all together (the first fifteen years worth) into a book. The land was one of the original land grants made to Revolutionary War veterans - so the first chapter is the granting of the land by John Adams; but other than that fact, I know nothing about what transpired when it was granted (but I made it a short chapter). The property then changed hands several times before it was settled. The only information I have about the people who held it before it was settled is a name from the deed abstract and sometimes their location and the date of transfer. After the settlers arrived I have more information from actual records and have done a lot of genealogical research on the families plus I'm very familiar with the land area.
Does that additional information help clarify whether the book should be called fiction or non-fiction? Thanks evryone for your inputs. Puma
--------------
Yesterday, 08:48 PM JenNipps
Puma said:
Honestly? No, it doesn't make my opinion different. Why?
Basically, you answered your own question. Creating the dialog is, in my opinion, the key. You don't have documented proof that what the characters are saying was exactly what they would have said. I would venture to say it might be your best guess as to what they would have said. But even with that, I would still classify it as fiction.
If you were to market it as creative nonfiction, fact checkers, editors, and the like would want a source list, which would include the dialog. In creating the dialog, you don't have that, so they couldn't accept/market it as nonfiction.
--------------
Yesterday, 09:22 PM Puma
Thanks, Jen, pdr, etc. I had been calling the work historical fiction but some dubiety crept in after reading some of the posts in absolutewrite. I will continue to call it historical fiction but include in the queries that much of it is based on fact. Thanks again for your help. Puma
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