Thoughts on Info-Dumping first chapter of a novel

TrapperViper

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
564
Reaction score
151
Location
United States
In doing some light research on these forums and elsewhere it seems that a common error of first-time writers is to info dump in the beginning of short stories or novels. I’m not necessarily just talking about the tell vs show concept, but the desire for a new writer (like myself) to provide a lot of background on the story prior to the first scenes or dialogue.

I am struggling with this. I personally think that the beginning of my novel is good, but I’m not advanced enough yet to be a decent self-critic. I have lot of info dumping in the first 500 words before I even make it to the first scene. Like I said, I think that it is well written but I am unjustifiably biased.

I’m wondering if any of you might be willing to share your thoughts on whether you think this is ever acceptable, and if so, in what sort of circumstances? The novel is not fantasy or science fiction or YA, which makes me anticipate that the majority will opine that info dumping in the first 500 words of a novel should be avoided at all costs.

Thank you in advance for sharing your perspectives. I’m hoping that some of you might offer me some justifications for continuing without having to re-write the first chapter.

Thank you
 

-Riv-

The much appreciated
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
4,442
Reaction score
2,229
Location
Pacific Northwest
In doing some light research on these forums and elsewhere it seems that a common error of first-time writers is to info dump in the beginning of short stories or novels. I’m not necessarily just talking about the tell vs show concept, but the desire for a new writer (like myself) to provide a lot of background on the story prior to the first scenes or dialogue.

I am struggling with this. I personally think that the beginning of my novel is good, but I’m not advanced enough yet to be a decent self-critic. I have lot of info dumping in the first 500 words before I even make it to the first scene. Like I said, I think that it is well written but I am unjustifiably biased.

I’m wondering if any of you might be willing to share your thoughts on whether you think this is ever acceptable, and if so, in what sort of circumstances? The novel is not fantasy or science fiction or YA, which makes me anticipate that the majority will opine that info dumping in the first 500 words of a novel should be avoided at all costs.

Thank you in advance for sharing your perspectives. I’m hoping that some of you might offer me some justifications for continuing without having to re-write the first chapter.

Thank you😊
Info dumping is a (negative) label for too much information being presented in a way that doesn't engage the reader. If info is presented in an engaging way, it's not an info dump. (What's not engaging for one reader may be engaging for another, however.)

Without reading the opening, there's no way to give an opinion one way or the other. This is something that is assessed on a case by case basis, and opinions will differ from reader to reader. If the majority of the feedback you get on your opening is that it's an "info dump" (negative connotation), then it might be something you would want to take a look at.

tl;dr There's not a rule that says you can't present information in an opening, but how it is presented can affect how it is received.

Once you get to fifty posts, you can post your opening in the Share Your Work section to get feedback, if you'd like.

All the best,
Riv
 

MaeZe

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 6, 2016
Messages
12,772
Reaction score
6,476
Location
Ralph's side of the island.
And in some cases we think the reader has to have all kinds of backstory or they won't understand the story. And it often turns out they don't.

Here's the tentative opening of my query where I did feel the need to describe the setting:
"Centauri Rising, complete at 100K words, is a YA sci-fi story that takes place on an Earth-like planet in a distant solar system settled by humans more than a century before the story begins."​

When I started the book I thought that was needed for the readers to understand. Then on top of it there is a relationship between two populations on the planet that is key to the story.

But now that the story is finished except for polishing, I found I didn't need the reader to know any of that in order to understand the story.

I am still struggling with how to describe the story to friends who ask, and the query is a struggle. But an info-dump at the beginning wasn't necessary at all in the story other than the little bits gleaned here and there throughout the book.
 

-Riv-

The much appreciated
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
4,442
Reaction score
2,229
Location
Pacific Northwest
And in some cases we think the reader has to have all kinds of backstory or they won't understand the story. And it often turns out they don't.
<snip>
+1 to this.
 

mewellsmfu

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
488
Reaction score
194
Agree with MaeZe and Riv. I learned to integrate information into the manuscript in bits and pieces. Even better, with each revision (lots of lots of them), I discovered what I thought was vital when I first started the book wasn't at all necessary. Over time I've become a convert to the less-is-more school of writing.
 

TrapperViper

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
564
Reaction score
151
Location
United States
Info dumping is a (negative) label for too much information being presented in a way that doesn't engage the reader. If info is presented in an engaging way, it's not an info dump. (What's not engaging for one reader may be engaging for another, however.)

this was much appreciated. Thank you.
 

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
12,975
Reaction score
4,507
Location
USA
Website
brightdreamersbookreviews.blogspot.com
IMHO, if it rises to a level that even you, as the writer, automatically think "info-dump" when reading it, it should probably go.

As others have mentioned, it's easy to overestimate what a reader needs to know to invest in your story. Often, it's just what you want them to know - and of course you do. You spent a long time - years, maybe even decades - crafting this tale and these characters. Like any proud parent, your first instinct is to show off the baby pictures and break out the slide show of their Little League years, instead of standing back and letting your now-grown offspring speak for themselves.

For writing purposes, it's not uncommon to start out a bit infodumpy/info-heavy. Some of that's for your benefit as a writer, as you work your way towards your vision; even with an outline, drafting is a process of feeling out and refining the story in your head for delivery into other people's heads. As you revise, and the story and characters become stronger, you'll often find that you can pare back the raw info from a dump to a minimum (though it's unlikely that you can eliminate it altogether; just because it's information doesn't mean it's an info-dump, as information can be delivered engagingly and in story context.)
 

CathleenT

I write
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
5,097
Reaction score
1,981
Location
Northern California
Okay, rules are meant to be broken. Really, they're more like guidelines (a la Pirates of the Caribbean).

However.

Exposition is generally not your most relatable opener. Fantasy and sci-fi can start with some form of nifty magic or tech to set the scene. Historical writers can do something similar, but even then I'd wrap it in a character.

Ex: Marya sat bolt upright in bed. The unaccustomed silence--not a single bomb, not even a stray bullet--had her fumbling for her gas mask before her feet even hit the floor.

(And yes, I started with waking up. I liked the opener from Hunger Games, too. So, there's a rule I just broke.)

For now, I'd say just write, and go to SYW and start critiquing. Say nice stuff and do cheerleading at first if you feel awkward. Don't worry--we've all been there.

I've scrapped openers that I really liked. (Shoot--I've trunked entire novels, but that's a whole other story.) Sometimes you can fix it, sometimes it's best just to move on. And you're probably too close to the thing to be objective.

Getting a draft to pretty good--to where a random acquaintance reading it might say that you should try to publish--and getting something to actual publishing standard are two entirely different things.

But for now, just keep going. Self-edit as best you can as you go along, but otherwise, don't sweat your opener. Some people end up lopping off the first chapter and modifying the second. Some rewrite, some merely check for weak verbs and call it good. It's impossible to say what will happen until the work is done.

Editing can fix a lot. But you've got to get the thing drafted first. My advice would be to keep your eye on that goal for now. :)
 
Last edited:

TrapperViper

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
564
Reaction score
151
Location
United States
Thank you all. This has been pretty enlightening, and there is another thread going right now that probably more intelligently addresses the same thing I was trying to.

https://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?341062-Are-we-judging-story-openings-too-harshly

Key point that I think I have learned here is to whether or not the opening is engaging/compelling. Being an amateur writer my sense of my own work is obviously biased...so I am interested to see other's opinions if I end up sharing.

It is interesting that even though we have the ability be self critical in other aspects of our lives, it is tough to be so when we don't know what right looks like. When it comes to writing a novel, I have yet to learn what right looks like.

Thank you all:)
 

talktidy

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
896
Reaction score
86
Location
Fabulous Sweyn's Eye
I am still at the learning stage myself, so take the following with a pinch of salt, but...

Personally, I would not worry about revising your first chapter until you have a completed first draft to work with, by which time you should have a better grasp of your story and your current first chapter may be jettisoned in future revisions.
 

Lakey

professional dilettante
Staff member
Super Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
2,714
Reaction score
3,965
Location
New England
When it comes to writing a novel, I have yet to learn what right looks like.

Hello TrapperViper. A question that occurs to me as I read your thoughtful posts: Do you read a lot? I strongly believe that the best way to learn what works and what doesn’t work in fiction is to read widely and with your brain engaged.

If it’s openings you want to study, pick up some of your favorite books and reread their openings, paying close attention to what each sentence is doing, and how the opening makes you want to read on. How is the opening engaging your curiosity? How is it establishing setting? What is it telling you about character? Good openings do all these things at once.

Pick up some recent books in the genre and marketing category you want to write in, and do the same analysis. Some of them will work better than others. If you find yourself not engaged, think about what’s going wrong. You will find so many answers to your questions by studying the books around you.

:e2coffee:
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
Something I have discovered over the past year is that HOW we relate information is hugely impactful in shaping the narrative.

The decision of when to parcel out info, how to stagger or pace it, how it is discovered or relayed, and by whom, give the plot a lot of its structure.

Straight up exposition can work, but if it is happening a lot, or for very crucial information, then the story may end up dragging not having enough content, or lacking tension. Not always but is often or broadly true.


Basic example: a character reads a report about a secret military base underneath their local convenience store, or is informed of its existence by another character through an explanatory conversation.

Versus

A character discovers said base by going there, and experiencing what the base has to offer (or even doesn't go in, but sees others use it's entrance.)

All of the above can work but how that information is relayed is going to shaoe the plot, and each of those options focuses the story in different ways.

They can all be made to work, as can flat out exposition. However, for me it's not only about how interesting the exposition is, but what it is doing for the story being being explained in thst form. If thst makes sense.
 

litdawg

Helping those who help themselves
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
873
Reaction score
562
Location
California
I tend to intersperse world building information with other story lines. I don't know if this will save it from some readers viewing it as an information dump. I think on these boards some people have heightened sensitivity to info dumps because they get to look at such small chunks of text. Within the context, the information given is ungainly.

I think you should make a distinction between info-dumping in openings--which detracts from more important work of establishing a character/story we want to follow--and what others have called exposition at the right time, in the right way. When I have long exposition sections, such as when a character's backstory/reminiscence is emerging, I parse it out with some task or interaction the character is having. So there are two things happening at once, and I move between them when I think the back story is displacing the front story.

Another way exposition can work is by making it a discovery for a character. Mission briefs are time honored ways to get some information out; intercepted letters or secret plans are another. How may stories have been advanced by snooping in someone's diary? That's information, though. Why the world you've built works the way it does is a different sort of information. Here it is good to consider the POV limitations. Some characters have voices that lend themselves to philosophical reflection or cultural analysis. These voices can be better for "how the world works" exposition than the smash-and-grab characters, or so, at least, I've found in both my work and reading.
 

screenscope

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
681
Reaction score
78
Location
Sydney, Australia
Sometimes info-dumps are necessary. It depends on the story, so I would not avoid them simply because the conventional 'wisdom' is negative. If not sure, as with any other confusing writing issue, try it and see if it works.

My preference - most of the time - is to use information as a pacing tool by drip-feeding it into a story. It's a case of working out exactly what the reader needs to know and when they need to know it. It's not that hard to do and it gets much easier with experience.
 

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
16,768
Reaction score
4,663
Location
Scotland
A page or whatever it may be of 'interesting, relevant and informative' exposition may well be necessary and would be perfectly acceptable to me, but to me an 'info-dump' per se is by definition an ill-advised and usually boring 'dump' of uninteresting and irrelevant information.


Posted by Screenscope Sometimes info-dumps are necessary. It depends on the story, so I would not avoid them simply because the conventional 'wisdom' is negative. If not sure, as with any other confusing writing issue, try it and see if it works.

My preference - most of the time - is to use information as a pacing tool by drip-feeding it into a story. It's a case of working out exactly what the reader needs to know and when they need to know it. It's not that hard to do and it gets much easier with experience.
 
Last edited:

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
12,853
Reaction score
3,051
Location
Not where you last saw me.
Sometimes info-dumps are necessary. It depends on the story, so I would not avoid them simply because the conventional 'wisdom' is negative. If not sure, as with any other confusing writing issue, try it and see if it works.

My preference - most of the time - is to use information as a pacing tool by drip-feeding it into a story. It's a case of working out exactly what the reader needs to know and when they need to know it. It's not that hard to do and it gets much easier with experience.

Info-dumping is by its nature negative (that's why it's called a 'dump'): it's a wordy chunk of information or backstory dropped on the reader's head all at one time and it's often boring. Relevant information provided as setup may be needed to ground your reader in a particular place in the story—either through exposition or dialogue—but keep it brief and stick to what is necessary at that juncture in your story.

A page or whatever it may be of 'interesting, relevant and informative' exposition may well be necessary and would be perfectly acceptable to me, but to me an 'info-dump' per se is by definition an ill-advised and usually boring 'dump' of uninteresting and irrelevant information.

Yes.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
Nothing is ever necessary--there are always other options. As with so many things in writing, it comes down to a value judgment for which option you think is best.

If that sounds finicky, I guess I feel the need to make that distinction because in the past I've locked myself into knots as a result of thinking a certain bit of my novel was "necessary" at all costs, or that a certain approach/method was "required".
 

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
12,853
Reaction score
3,051
Location
Not where you last saw me.
Nothing is ever necessary--there are always other options. As with so many things in writing, it comes down to a value judgment for which option you think is best.

If that sounds finicky, I guess I feel the need to make that distinction because in the past I've locked myself into knots as a result of thinking a certain bit of my novel was "necessary" at all costs, or that a certain approach/method was "required".

You might want to clarify what you mean by that first sentence. There are elements necessary to a story: setting, characters, a challenge (for example)—elements without which there is no story to tell.
 

screenscope

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
681
Reaction score
78
Location
Sydney, Australia
Fair point. Few things are truly necessary, perhaps?

Or, everything is on the table until it's off the table.

'Info-dump' is a common expression among writers, always used negatively, but I don't believe I've ever heard it from a reader. It shouldn't bother me, but I do get concerned that beginning writers are missing valuable writing lessons by avoidance due to an opinion disguised as advice.

The only way to learn why something does or doesn't work is by doing it.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
I was thinking in terms if specifics, really. Like yes, a story needs characters. But it doesn't technically need any particular character. The classic example being in multi pov novels where an author "must" have John and susy and Ben... But not really, because the narrative could work without any of them. If that makes sense.

So my.objectio above was to the specific statement that sometimes a story needs an info dump. A story never needs an info dump, although it does of course need information.

It might be beneficial, or he best way in the end (though j am a hard sell in that) but I think approaching your story with the mindset of "this novel NEEDS X done in Y way" risks being inflexible.

A reader may not have the term info dump but can still recognise it. I remember reading sections in books, when I was young, that I found dry and lecture ish. Nowadays I'd likely call such sections infodumps.
 

screenscope

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
681
Reaction score
78
Location
Sydney, Australia
Info-dumping is by its nature negative

The term 'info dump' is a negative opinion, not a defined writing element. I would argue that 'bad' ones are obvious, while no one notices the ones that do work.

I get all the reasons some writers don't like them and warn against them, but I don't like any advice that tries to narrow a writer's experience and knowledge regarding why things work or don't work.
 

-Riv-

The much appreciated
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
4,442
Reaction score
2,229
Location
Pacific Northwest
The term 'info dump' is a negative opinion, not a defined writing element. I would argue that 'bad' ones are obvious, while no one notices the ones that do work.
That's the key. It's not an info dump if it works (and whether or not it works will depend on the reader).
:Shrug:

I get all the reasons some writers don't like them and warn against them, but I don't like any advice that tries to narrow a writer's experience and knowledge regarding why things work or don't work.
I'm not sure how saying "make the revelation of info as interesting/engaging/relevant as possible" narrows a writer's experience and knowledge.

All the best,
Riv
 

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
12,853
Reaction score
3,051
Location
Not where you last saw me.
The term 'info dump' is a negative opinion, not a defined writing element. I would argue that 'bad' ones are obvious, while no one notices the ones that do work.

I get all the reasons some writers don't like them and warn against them, but I don't like any advice that tries to narrow a writer's experience and knowledge regarding why things work or don't work.

Is it possible you're meaning 'backstory' when you write 'info dump'? 'Cause that's about the only slack I'm prepared to cut here. I've already made my stance clear on presenting opinions as fact in this room.