Writing a large SFF series

Rinsler · Nov 23, 2018

Hi all, I'm new to the forum so please be gentle!

I've done some searching here and found a single post that perhaps touches on my question, but with no definitive answer.

Here's some background:

I am a new author and am currently writing a SFF series, based around a single MC. It's not a Jack Reacher style series, whereby each book is almost a standalone story in itself, it is a hero's journey with each book leading on from the next. The universe and plot is a big one, and I have the basic outline for... wait for it... eight books, with the climax (of course) in the eighth. Book one is currently being edited at 96k, and book two is in progress at 80k of approx 120k.

I came on this forum to ask "How does one go about querying a whole series like this?", and I have more questions, but a statement I read earlier said that "You'll never sell an 8 book series", which, of course, rang alarm bells.

So, before I continue with my main question, what are your thoughts on this statement I read?

Thanks!

Ryan

cornflake · Nov 23, 2018

You won't sell an eight-book series.

You do not query an eight-book series, or a series of any length. You query one book that has the ability to stand alone -- that is, it has a satisfying conclusion to its main plot. It may have threads that allow for a sequel to continue the broader story, but the book you query can't end on a cliffhanger, or lack a satisfying ending of its own.

When you query it, you say it has series potential. If you have an interested agent, who manages to sell your work to a publisher who absolutely loves it and believes it will succeed without question (this is nearly impossible) they may consider a contact that covers two or three books. No one, but no one, is offering you a contract for eight books, That's not a thing, unless you're JKR, in which case you're probably not asking us this question.

Worry about finishing (editing, editing again, getting beta readers, editing again, etc.) one book that stands alone and query that. Don't bother writing subsequent ones yet. I mean if you want to outline them, or want stuff to do while you're querying, go nuts. First though, worry about one book, because odds are that's what you'd sell.

lizmonster · Nov 23, 2018

What cornflake said. Pitch one book, mention series potential, and cross your fingers.

I actually don't think it's a problem to keep writing them (although it doesn't hurt to have other ideas in your pocket). I got an agent off a book with series potential, and when it went on sub, publishers wanted three. It was a big help that I had another one partially drafted.

But the only way to be certain your 8 books will get published is to publish them yourself. Otherwise, you're at the mercy of the vagaries of publishing, which are legion.

-Riv- · Nov 23, 2018

Rinsler said:
Hi all, I'm new to the forum so please be gentle!

I've done some searching here and found a single post that perhaps touches on my question, but with no definitive answer.

Here's some background:

I am a new author and am currently writing a SFF series, based around a single MC. It's not a Jack Reacher style series, whereby each book is almost a standalone story in itself, it is a hero's journey with each book leading on from the next. The universe and plot is a big one, and I have the basic outline for... wait for it... eight books, with the climax (of course) in the eighth. Book one is currently being edited at 96k, and book two is in progress at 80k of approx 120k.

I came on this forum to ask "How does one go about querying a whole series like this?", and I have more questions, but a statement I read earlier said that "You'll never sell an 8 book series", which, of course, rang alarm bells.

So, before I continue with my main question, what are your thoughts on this statement I read?

The bottom line is that you query one novel as a standalone with series potential. Once you have an agent interested in that book and are communicating, you can let them know what else you have in the pipeline. If your work is compelling, they may go for a two or even three book deal, but an eight book deal for a debut author would be a miracle--and still doesn't let you off the hook for having the first book be a standalone. It's a business deal for a publisher, and they will want to know how book one sells before committing to additional books. If the first book is a flop (in sales terms), they wouldn't want seven more in the works.

My advice is to write the absolute best first book you can. Make it stellar. Don't hold back the "good stuff" for later books. It's very important that the novel functions as a standalone with a complete story: plot with a beginning/middle/end and its own climax. It can leave the reader wanting more, but it shouldn't leave them feeling dissatisfied and needing more.

There's lots of info to be had in the forums, as well as the Share Your Work area where you can post for critique (once you have at least 50 posts) and give critique.

ETA: As lizmonster said, if you want to be certain all 8 books are published, self publishing is an option.

Have fun!

All the best,
Riv

Rinsler · Nov 23, 2018

Hi all. Firstly, thank you so much for your clear and understandable replies.

I had no idea that a large series is actually detrimental to my chances of being published, rather than the opposite. I have done some reading on querying, and one thing I read was that agents want to know you're not just a one-hit-wonder, and that you have more books in you. This buoyed me because I was already planning on a big series.

So, in terms of my current writing, the plan I have had all along was to make book one of shorter length (as it's my debut) and the major twist comes at the end, leading fully into the series proper. Pitching this as 'series potential' doesn't work for this model, as it would have to be a series.

From what you are saying, my entire model is flawed (from a traditional publishing angle at least), and that my options are limited — self publish and hope for the best, or revise book one and try to pitch that.

The problem I have with pitching just book one, is that it would be like trying to pitch LOTR Fellowship as a standalone novel. It doesn't have any satisfactory ending as you described, because the whole point of the story is that the ring has to be destroyed, which doesn't happen until the end of the final book of course. What would be the difference when pitching this against my series (technically, I mean, not story content or writing proficiency)? Is it just luck?

Thanks!!

Ryan

Woollybear · Nov 23, 2018

I think the difference is the timing (20th vs 21st century), and competition (so many more people writing books now), and audience (shorter attention span overall...).

I suspect Tolkien wrote what he wanted to write. In a sense, this is what you are doing as well. Enjoy that part of it.

On the plus side--If you self publish, being able to provide another book in the series every few months is a great position to be in. Again, attention span of the audience. If you can crank out followups, you will be a step ahead of folks like me who need a year or two per book.

lizmonster · Nov 23, 2018

Apart from the age of LOTR, it was originally a single novel.

You can, of course, try pitching a series. Long odds are not the same as impossible odds...but you're looking at very long odds.

Have you had beta readers on your work? Any chance your first book could work as a standalone if you combine it with the second?

-Riv- · Nov 23, 2018

Rinsler said:
I had no idea that a large series is actually detrimental to my chances of being published, rather than the opposite. I have done some reading on querying, and one thing I read was that agents want to know you're not just a one-hit-wonder, and that you have more books in you. This buoyed me because I was already planning on a big series.

For a query, you're (typically) pitching ONE book. For query purposes, "more books in you" is covered by "series potential." Later, you can chat with your agent about your vision and what else you have. You'll definitely close some doors if you query a series rather than a novel with "series potential." Only you can decide if it's worth the risk.

Rinsler said:
So, in terms of my current writing, the plan I have had all along was to make book one of shorter length (as it's my debut) and the major twist comes at the end, leading fully into the series proper. Pitching this as 'series potential' doesn't work for this model, as it would have to be a series.

This is where you run into a problem if you're going the trade publishing route vs. self publishing. With self publishing, you are free to present it however you'd like. With trade publishing, you run into issue noted in my previous post. It's not impossible, but it's darned close.

Rinsler said:
From what you are saying, my entire model is flawed (from a traditional publishing angle at least), and that my options are limited — self publish and hope for the best, or revise book one and try to pitch that.

Even as a series, book one needs to have a satisfying ending. A cliffhanger or a bunch of unresolved threads won't cut it. In other words, the series shouldn't just be one gigantic novel chopped into eight pieces. Each book needs it's own arc, and that arc can/should add to the overall arc, but needs to be a complete story for that book. You may be able to get away with a cliffhanger in a later book, but the main plot for that book should be tied up.

Rinsler said:
The problem I have with pitching just book one, is that it would be like trying to pitch LOTR Fellowship as a standalone novel. It doesn't have any satisfactory ending as you described, because the whole point of the story is that the ring has to be destroyed, which doesn't happen until the end of the final book of course. What would be the difference when pitching this against my series (technically, I mean, not story content or writing proficiency)? Is it just luck?

LOTR was a single, massive novel that got cut into three volumes for publishing convenience more than half a century ago. It's not a series/trilogy in the same sense as series today, so you can't really compare to it as far as making a current pitch/query.

Whether you decide to go the trade-publishing route or self-publishing route, there are a ton of resources here on AW.

All the best,
Riv

cornflake · Nov 23, 2018

Rinsler said:
Hi all. Firstly, thank you so much for your clear and understandable replies.

I had no idea that a large series is actually detrimental to my chances of being published, rather than the opposite. I have done some reading on querying, and one thing I read was that agents want to know you're not just a one-hit-wonder, and that you have more books in you. This buoyed me because I was already planning on a big series.

So, in terms of my current writing, the plan I have had all along was to make book one of shorter length (as it's my debut) and the major twist comes at the end, leading fully into the series proper. Pitching this as 'series potential' doesn't work for this model, as it would have to be a series.

From what you are saying, my entire model is flawed (from a traditional publishing angle at least), and that my options are limited — self publish and hope for the best, or revise book one and try to pitch that.

The problem I have with pitching just book one, is that it would be like trying to pitch LOTR Fellowship as a standalone novel. It doesn't have any satisfactory ending as you described, because the whole point of the story is that the ring has to be destroyed, which doesn't happen until the end of the final book of course. What would be the difference when pitching this against my series (technically, I mean, not story content or writing proficiency)? Is it just luck?

Thanks!!

Ryan

To start with, it was written like 75 years or so ago, and like most things, publishing has changed since then.

It was also intended as a single, ludicrously-large book, not a series, but that was untenable.

In addition, Tolkein wasn't a debut author asking for a giant series deal. He was a star with what amounted to a bestseller, who dropped a subsequent doorstopper on his publisher's desk and was told, 'what if we divvy it up?' rather than your idea to get a publisher to sign you for EIGHT books.

It's a business. No one is doing that. You're an unknown quantity -- hence the JKR comment in my original post. If you've proven to the publishing world that pretty much anything with your name on it will sell literally millions of books, well, people will write nearly anything you want into a contract. If Stephen King called up his publisher and said he had an idea for an eight-book series that had no stand-alones in it, they might waffle, but they're not going to lose him to another house if they can help it.

Also, the thing about agents wanting to know you're not a one-hit wonder is totally true. However, if your way of demonstrating that to an agent is that you've got seven more books, that are all really one story, and the "series proper" actually starts with book two, which you have to have read book one to grasp and if you read book one you won't be happy or think anything is resolved until the end of seven more books.... does that show you're not a one-hit wonder, or does it show you can't tell a story in one book? If you say you have ideas or outlines or even drafts of a sequel or two to a stand-alone book, that make sense, and don't need to be there, that's something to sell.

If you say 'I have one idea and it'll take a literal million words to tell it,' what are you saying to agents?

Rinsler · Nov 23, 2018

Totally get what you're saying about the market being different. Obviously HP is also a hero's journey with a long running series, and for the story to conclude you would have to read all seven books, but it took her a looong time to get representation, and she had a unique story at the right time.

lizmonster said:
Have you had beta readers on your work? Any chance your first book could work as a standalone if you combine it with the second?

Yes I have had 5 betas so far and am working with a CP. Feedback has generally been positive, and readers have (jokingly) been pressuring for book two, but as a standalone, book one just wouldn't work. I did consider combining one and two, but the big bomb needs to drop at the end of book one, otherwise it just wouldn't have the impact it does now.

On the plus side--If you self publish, being able to provide another book in the series every few months is a great position to be in. Again, attention span of the audience. If you can crank out followups, you will be a step ahead of folks like me who need a year or two per book.

This is looking more and more like my only option. My field is online marketing, so that does give me a foot up in self publishing, but I always feel that self-publishing is the last resort. I am a music producer also, and the dream is to get signed to a label. Many people (who, to be frank, aren't good enough) self-release their music, because they "don't like the lack of control labels force on you", but really, it's because their music isn't good enough to get signed. Inevitably their music never really gets anywhere because they a) don't have music that was good enough in the first place and b) don't have the backing of a big label. I can't help but feel this with self publishing, in that self-publishers are people who couldn't get their work represented. Perhaps an unpopular opinion, and I guess it's what you make of it in the end, but one that pushes me to keep working toward getting an agent.

Maybe in this case it's not going to be possible.

cornflake · Nov 23, 2018

It didn't take Rowling long at all to get representation, and she sold ONE book, not the series.

lizmonster · Nov 23, 2018

Self-publishing is exactly the right answer for the sort of work that doesn't fit with the trade model.

But given your ambitions, I'd strongly encourage you to consider being more flexible with your story. For example, you might restructure it so the Big Bang you feel needs to be the end if Book One is in the middle of it instead, and give Book One a proper ending.

If we're talking about JKR - yes, she wrote a series. But each book really did stand alone (apart from maybe the last two, which were published well after she'd proven she could sneeze and sell a zillion copies). She didn't leave cliffhangers, just unresolved plot points.

be frank · Nov 23, 2018

Rinsler said:
(who, to be frank, aren't good enough)

You called?

:nothing

(but, um... what everyone else said)

cornflake · Nov 23, 2018

To clarify, she sold one book to begin with. I'd wager at some point she was offered a several-book or open-ended series contract, but that, as Liz points out, was after she demonstrated that anything in the series was going to break sales records (set by the previous book in the series). If you rework and sell a stand-alone that goes on to innumerable print runs, you can leverage that. Without it...

Helix · Nov 23, 2018

Rinsler said:
Totally get what you're saying about the market being different. Obviously HP is also a hero's journey with a long running series, and for the story to conclude you would have to read all seven books, but it took her a looong time to get representation, and she had a unique story at the right time.

No. It didn't take Rowling a long time to get representation. She was picked up by the second (?) literary agency she queried and the book sold within a year of completion. HP isn't a unique story. But it is an entertaining one.

Rinsler said:
Yes I have had 5 betas so far and am working with a CP. Feedback has generally been positive, and readers have (jokingly) been pressuring for book two, but as a standalone, book one just wouldn't work. I did consider combining one and two, but the big bomb needs to drop at the end of book one, otherwise it just wouldn't have the impact it does now.

If it can't work as a stand-alone, what happens if it doesn't sell? That's another seven manuscripts in the round file.

Rinsler said:
This is looking more and more like my only option. My field is online marketing, so that does give me a foot up in self publishing, but I always feel that self-publishing is the last resort. I am a music producer also, and the dream is to get signed to a label. Many people (who, to be frank, aren't good enough) self-release their music, because they "don't like the lack of control labels force on you", but really, it's because their music isn't good enough to get signed. Inevitably their music never really gets anywhere because they a) don't have music that was good enough in the first place and b) don't have the backing of a big label. I can't help but feel this with self publishing, in that self-publishers are people who couldn't get their work represented. Perhaps an unpopular opinion, and I guess it's what you make of it in the end, but one that pushes me to keep working toward getting an agent. Maybe in this case it's not going to be possible.

There's nothing wrong with self-publishing. Same thing with music and other creative pursuits. It depends on the creator, her vision for the work, and how much she wants to be involved in the minutiae of the publishing business.

Rinsler · Nov 23, 2018

OK so I have decided to rework book one into a standalone, which it needed anyway. Looking at many initial books of a popular series, there is some sort of antagonist or arc that is concluded in the book, with a lead-in to subsequent sequels. It's what part one is lacking and I am sure it will only bolster the series anyway.

In answer to the JKR querying, it's trivial but she was rejected about 12 times. 'Loads' was her description. The reason I brought up this cliche of a series (sorry) is that it was sold as a single book, the main arc in which was not to be concluded until many books later, which is roughly my situation. Where I am lacking, which I am going to resolve, is that my first book doesn't have a gripping arc outside of the main series plot, which I 100% see now that it needs.

Thanks for everyone's input!

-Riv- · Nov 23, 2018

Rinsler said:
In answer to the JKR querying, it's trivial but she was rejected about 12 times.

Publisher rejections after getting an agent, not agent rejections. She was actually agented very quickly (second query). What everyone is referring to in this thread is landing an agent.

All the best,
Riv

-Riv- · Nov 23, 2018

Rinsler said:
OK so I have decided to rework book one into a standalone, which it needed anyway. Looking at many initial books of a popular series, there is some sort of antagonist or arc that is concluded in the book, with a lead-in to subsequent sequels. It's what part one is lacking and I am sure it will only bolster the series anyway.

This is your best move, IMO. Good luck!

Rinsler · Nov 23, 2018

-Riv- said:
Publisher rejections after getting an agent, not agent rejections. She was actually agented very quickly (second query). What everyone is referring to in this thread is landing an agent.

All the best,
Riv

Ah, I see. Thanks Riv! Appreciate the help.

Harlequin · Nov 24, 2018

Rowling does propagate that myth, probably out of well meaning intent to be encourbut it's not really very accurate.

As others ahve said, she got the second agent she queried and she spent only a year on submission. A year is very normal, and not that long for trade. On the whole, she sold the first book she wrote to the second agent she queried; those are phenomenal stats, and very quick for the publishing industry. (If you want a random comparison, I collected 130 rejections for first ms, and a couple dozen for ms2, before finding an agent; and as far as publisher rejections go, I'm halfway to Rowling's 12 already, lol.)

Naomi Novik was offered a 9 (or 8?) book series as a debut author, but she is the only one I can think of in recent times who was given that opportunity and also pulled it off (the series is finished). Definitely an exception.

Rinsler · Nov 24, 2018

Harlequin said:
Rowling does propagate that myth, probably out of well meaning intent to be encourbut it's not really very accurate.

As others ahve said, she got the second agent she queried and she spent only a year on submission. A year is very normal, and not that long for trade. On the whole, she sold the first book she wrote to the second agent she queried; those are phenomenal stats, and very quick for the publishing industry. (If you want a random comparison, I collected 130 rejections for first ms, and a couple dozen for ms2, before finding an agent; and as far as publisher rejections go, I'm halfway to Rowling's 12 already, lol.)

Naomi Novik was offered a 9 (or 8?) book series as a debut author, but she is the only one I can think of in recent times who was given that opportunity and also pulled it off (the series is finished). Definitely an exception.

That's some serious stats.

It's worth mentioning that I'd never considered looking for representation for the whole series at the same time. I fully expected to have to query each instalment, whether that's right or wrong.

Some interesting info here, thanks!

Harlequin · Nov 24, 2018

Unfortunately, I'm not unusual. Hundreds of rejections at query stage (and even publisher stage) are relatively common.

No need to query each installment, unless you really wish to

Most agents are looking for career partnerships and will continue to work for you unless something changes (meaning, you can pitch the books to your agent or editor without having to requery.)

cornflake · Nov 24, 2018

Rinsler said:
OK so I have decided to rework book one into a standalone, which it needed anyway. Looking at many initial books of a popular series, there is some sort of antagonist or arc that is concluded in the book, with a lead-in to subsequent sequels. It's what part one is lacking and I am sure it will only bolster the series anyway.

In answer to the JKR querying, it's trivial but she was rejected about 12 times. 'Loads' was her description. The reason I brought up this cliche of a series (sorry) is that it was sold as a single book, the main arc in which was not to be concluded until many books later, which is roughly my situation. Where I am lacking, which I am going to resolve, is that my first book doesn't have a gripping arc outside of the main series plot, which I 100% see now that it needs.

Thanks for everyone's input!

The thing you now realize is an issue is an issue -- the first HP book has an internal plot with a satisfying conclusion. It's not a cliffhanger book. No, the whole larger Voldemort yada yada business is still out there, but lots of things are still out there in life. They're not all wrapped up. It's like (but not like) a television series. If a show is predicated on the problem of the main characters being survivors of a zombie plague, that's not all wrapped up in one episode. The immediate problem introduced in the episode is wrapped up and the larger problem continues on, as they do.

As other have noted, she wasn't rejected a lot at all. Picked up by your second agent and sold on (likely) your second sub round is a smooth route to print. As it was, until the Galbraith thing, and we know how that turned out, her first foray into publishing, she likely didn't, maybe doesn't, get how smooth her road was. If you don't know a lot of people in the business from the beginning (like if the people you meet in the business are mostly all already secure with book deals they may have had for some time) you maybe don't grasp the general realities of the publishing world.

Also, it was more than 20 years ago, and the rise of e-querying has only made stuff much worse in terms of submission bulk.

Shoeless · Nov 24, 2018

Basically, you have nothing to worry about if you are a phenomenal writer with incredible sales potential. The book deal will go your way. You'll have your first indicators that you may be on this path if you query multiple agents, get multiple offers from many of them, and then actually have them fighting to represent you, each sweetening the deal for what they'd offer you and your book if you decide to sign with them. The next step that you're probably on this path is if that agent starts submitting the books to publishers, and you get a pre-emptive offer from one to try and head off an auction, and your agent says, "Forget that, we can get way more out of an auction," and you suddenly have 3-5 of the Big Five publishers all bidding on your book, frantically increasing their offers while your agent suddenly promotes you to rising star in the cilentele list and pays WAY more attention to you than other clients.

If you see those signs, odds are that when you say "I have an eight book series," they won't care if each book is the size of a phone book. They're convinced you're going to make money.

If none of that is happening for you, you're far less certain about the possibility of getting an 8 book deal.

For most of us, as others have said, you're better off marking the book as having "series potential," and then hope you get to play that out. Your agent will take it on, and if you're very lucky, an editor will have enough enthusiasm for the book that you may get an offer for a duology or a trilogy. But very few authors get an 8 book deal straight out of the gate. In some cases, a publisher may make a conditional offer, where they're aware that your book may be a series, but they want to see how the first book does before they commit to any more. In both of these cases though, if your book gets the sales, and the publishers are happy with the numbers you're pulling, you may get to continue the series beyond the initial agreement.

On the other hand, if the first book comes out and the sales are poor, now you're in trouble. If it was only for a one book deal with a "Let's see what happens after" clause, then you're unlikely--at least from that publisher--to be given the green light to write more books. If the contract was for a duology or a trilogy, they'll be watching the sales of those subsequent books and if they don't surpass--or worse yet come in lower--than the sales of the first, you're not getting an offer for additional books in that series. There's even a chance that exceptionally poor sales may follow you around. Publishers aren't so cruel as to think that just because a book didn't hit the NYT list you're written off as a writer. But if a first book does very, VERY badly, and then subsequent books fall right off the sales cliff, that will be part of your reputation.

So I would say that if you absolutely are in love with this series, and can't imagine not writing it, then be true to your heart and write it, but don't necessarily write it with the assumption that it's all going to print. Write it because you have to, and not having those eight books exist would kill you. But if these eight books exist solely to get into book shelves and be read by others, then temper those expectations. Be prepared for the possibility this won't happen, and start looking at other stories to tell, then budget your time between writing books for publication and writing your big series for yourself.

It's not all that uncommon for writers to want to write a series. It's fun, ambitious, and I think it's probably an amazing learning experience. But always write with an escape hatch. Be adaptable enough to move on if the series you're committed to now is not the one that's going to get published, because that's always a possibility. It took six books to get my current literary agent, and at least three of those are series that are unlikely to ever happen.

Filigree · Nov 24, 2018

Definitely treat the first book as a 'standalone with series potential' when querying an agent. Given the amount of revisions that many agents and editors do to a manuscript, you will likely have to shelve or rewrite large parts of your other series books. If you think self-publishing may be an option, have at least some solid notes on your larger stories.

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