Would this be an Interlude?

Starbrazer · May 17, 2006

Dear Editor:

I am currently working on a fantasy novel, of which I have created an outline for and I have a question about its structure.

The outline goes as follows:

Prologue: Present day (2 pages)

Part One
Chapters 1-8 (all present tense; a sum total of 42 pages)

Part Two
One chapter (flashback; one hour before occurrence, 26 pages)
or...
Interlude "same as above, 26 pages"

Part Three
Chapters 1-12 (present day)

OK, my question is about Part Two (the flashback chapter); since it only has one chapter should I consider it Part Two or just an Interlude; what exactly is an Interlude anyhow? Somehow, Interlude sounds more appropriate since this part of the book is just one chapter, 26 pages.

The only other way this would work is if I eliminate Part Two/Interlude, and make it the first chapter of Part One, but I don't want to do that, because this chapter is lengthier and I want to get the reader hooked before I spring this chapter on them. Not that it is not a good chapter; it's just that the first eight chapters are small and the book reads better that way, I think.

What are your suggestions on this matter?

Sincerely,
argenianpoet

Gillhoughly · May 18, 2006

argenianpoet said:
Dear Editor:

I am currently working on a fantasy novel, of which I have created an outline for and I have a question about its structure.

The outline goes as follows:

Prologue: Present day (2 pages)

Speaking as an editor and a reader, I don't like a prologue and skip them over when picking something to read at the store.

argenianpoet said:
Part One
Chapters 1-8 (all present tense; a sum total of 42 pages)

You've lost the sale, and I'm putting your proposal back in the return envelope or the circular file for recyle.

Present tense anything is strictly amateur night.

Present tense for 42 pages is sheer torture.

argenianpoet said:
Part Two
One chapter (flashback; one hour before occurence, 26 pages)
or...
Interlude "same as above, 26 pages"

See above on use of return envelope. You forgot Spellcheck. Flipping back and forth in time is a turn-off.

Part Three
Chapters 1-12 (present day)
<snip>What are your suggestions on this matter?[/quote]

Do what our friendly uncle said in a previous post. Put this one in a box for a few months and write another book. Then another.

THEN go back and start editing.

Starbrazer · May 18, 2006

Gillhoughly said:
You've lost the sale, and I'm putting your proposal back in the return envelope or the circular file for recyle.

Present tense anything is strictly amateur night.

Present tense for 42 pages is sheer torture.[qoute=Gillhoughly]

What's this supposed to mean, I mean c'mon; "you've lost the sale, and I'm putting your proposal back in the return envelope..." This is not a proposal; it's a question?

I was speaking of the story's layout, and yes this flashback chapter is important. I was wondering whether I should make it the first chapter of Part One or just Part Two as is (one chapter), or just an Interlude, but you did not answer my question. You talk awful big about it, but you don't know the story.

Furthermore, I made a mistake when I wrote this question; present tense, I actually meant present day, and no it is not written in the present tense 42 pages. This flashback chapter takes place an hour before the big event and it is at the heart of the story.

The prologue and first eight chapters of Part One are short and are easier to read; I just thought that they would work better at the front of the book and save the flashback for the second Part, Interlude or whatever...

Starbrazer · May 18, 2006

Gillhoughly said:
See above on use of return envelope. You forgot Spellcheck. Flipping back and forth in time is a turn-off.

Part Three
Chapters 1-12 (present day)
<snip>What are your suggestions on this matter?

Again, what are you talking about? This makes absolutely no sense to me, and in a way you are slamming a story that you know nothing about. Flashbacks have a place in novel writing, just like everything else does, and this is one of those times when it works. These are poor suggestions; no excuse me, these are not suggestions at all, but rather hogwash...

"See above on use of return envelope. You forgot Spellcheck..." Yeah, okay...as if...

CaoPaux · May 18, 2006

Gillhoughly said:
Present tense anything is strictly amateur night.

Now, now, don't be throwin' out the baby with the bath water.

Present tense, like first-person POV, can be quite effective. The irony is, of course, that while new writers often begin with this "natural" form, it takes an experienced writer to make it work.

argenianpoet said:
Okay, my question is about Part Two (the flashback chapter); since it only has one chapter should I consider it Part Two or just an Interlude; what exactly is an Interlude anyhow? Somehow, Interlude sounds more appropiate since this part of the book is just one chapter, 26 pages.

The only other way this would work is if I eliminate Part Two/Interlude, and make it the first chapter of Part One, but I don't want to do that, because this chapter is lengthier and I want to get the reader hooked before I spring this chapter on them. Not that it is not a good chapter; it's just that the first eight chapters are small and the book reads better that way, I think.

What are your suggestions on this matter?

I can't say I understand what you're trying to do here, but if it were me I'd lose all the "part" stuff and just keep it in chapters: making the flashback Ch. 9 and the present-day narrative beginning with Ch. 10.

Gillhoughly · May 18, 2006

This is not a proposal; it's a question? (sic)

The question was on structure, and at present your structure will work against you making a sale.

CaoPaux said:
while new writers often begin with this "natural" form, it takes an experienced writer to make it work.

Exactly!

I stand corrected in that the poster meant present day, not present tense. BIG difference between the two, so no one yell at me because there was an error in the wording.

Technical stuff on present tense: I usually write in first person and have had some bits in books in present tense. They were very SHORT bits, no more than a page. They were present tense because the hero had been conked on the head and wasn't thinking too clearly. Soon as he snapped out of it I went back to normal narrative.

Cautionary tale: As an editor and writer who's talked with literally 100's of others in the business I can guarantee that the fastest way to the rejection pile is using present tense, so I warn neos away and fast. The ones who come to me with present tense stuff always think they've done something different. I've got a men's "action" novel called "Dog Star" dating from the 50's. It's in present tense. I've yet to get more than 2 pages into it.

That aside: Structure.

Editors aren't fond of writers going back in forth in time unless the writer really knows what he's doing.

Rather than rely on a tired old device like a flashback, why not tell the story in chronological order? Unless your hero has a terrible case of amnesia and the driver of the book has to do with him remembering stuff, flashbacks can work against the flow of your narrative. If you're using it as a device to surprise the reader in some way, step back and look at the story from the point of view of your worst enemy. What would he or she say to rip your work apart? How do you fix the problem?

I do that every day. As a writer I am my own worst enemy. I am merciless to my work. The object is to make it better, not get egoboos.

It is all too easy to get angry over hearing how the publishing world really works, but we just suck it up and move on. The first time I heard something I didn't like about my first novel I was ready to go postal. In retrospect I came to realize the other person had a point, and I also had not been clear in the wording of my question.

The point here is to be absolutely clear on questions, use Spellcheck so people will take you seriously, and realize that this board is peopled by those who really do want to help others get better in the craft. They don't have to be here, they are donating time they could better spend writing on their own stuff.

Again, go with what our genial uncle suggested on a previous post.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33308

Put it in a box.

Write a 80K novel. Sell it.
Write a 100K novel. Sell it too.
Then pull out your 250K novel.

It worked for me.

And now I've got to get back to editing.

Starbrazer · May 18, 2006

CaoPaux said:
I can't say I understand what you're trying to do here, but if it were me I'd lose all the "part" stuff and just keep it in chapters: making the flashback Ch. 9 and the present-day narrative beginning with Ch. 10.

This is obviously a confusing question and I knew that when I tried to put it into words, but I felt compelled to ask. I am full of questions so don't mind me, but I appreciate your attempt to understand me. I have studied novel layout for years and I have learned from the masters. When you write a book you can split it up into different Parts or Books for the different stages of the story. In the case of this novel everything goes from being good to bad and that is the difference between the two stages of this novel. One moment everyone is having a normal Saturday morning and the next it is all turned upside down as the worst happens. In other words:

Book One/introduces town and people

Book Two/how these people handle the darkness that has fell upon them.

The Flashback explains why this nightmare is happening, and introduces one of my protagonist characters, but it probably belongs at the beginning of the book.

CaoPaux · May 18, 2006

Gillhoughly said:
I stand corrected in that the poster meant present day, not present tense. BIG difference between the two, so no one yell at me because there was an error in the wording.

Heh, hardly. In fact, you could probably tell from my response that I missed the correction entirely.

Argenianpoet, if your first eight chapters occupy the same timeline as the ones after the flashback, it makes even less sense to separate them into "parts". If you'll look at existing books with Part I, Part II, etc., I expect you'll find the divisions mark major shifts in location, characters, and/or point of view, not just past or present timelines.

ETA: Since you posted while I was posting. Keep in mind that "part" and "book" have distinct meanings in terms of structure. They're used to cue the reader that there's a major shift in perspective, not just "now the story begins". I agree that your flashback would work better as Ch. 1 or a prologue.

Starbrazer · May 18, 2006

Gillhoughly said:
The point here is to be absolutely clear on questions, use Spellcheck so people will take you seriously, and realize that this board is peopled by those who really do want to help others get better in the craft. They don't have to be here, they are donating time they could better spend writing on their own stuff.

What do you mean by spellcheck; I still don't get it. Furthermore, you think that the best structure is this: Chapter One to Chapter 30 or whatever? No Parts or Prologues or Interludes or Epilogues? Really?

I personally like to split my book into different Parts/Books (whatever you want to call it), because it creates a more powerful story that way. Prologues are short glimpses that introduce the story, and in the case of my novel it introduces the main character. It is very short and it hooks the reader, giving him some idea of what is in store for the future.

I value the advice of others, but when it doesn't make any sense to me then I must question it. This is not a clear question, I know, but I knew I was going to have trouble wording it right. I can take criticism, but you come off sort of strong I thought. Anyway, peace brother, I respect your opinion--I'm not sure I understood all of it--but I respect it.

Different strokes for different folks, right?

Moreover, I appreciate the feed that I recieve in this community of writers, editors and agents. This place is like a gold mine, and I love it. Thank you AbsoluteWrite for creating such a place. Thank you everyone for the generous feed that you give me on a daily basis.

Sincerely,
argenianpoet

Sheryl Nantus · May 18, 2006

maybe it might help if you told us where you got this list of "rules" and which "Masters" you studied... give us some sort of context to work from.

Starbrazer · May 18, 2006

Sheryl Nantus said:
maybe it might help if you told us where you got this list of "rules" and which "Masters" you studied... give us some sort of context to work from.

Masters: Stephen King, Peter Straub, Ray Bradbury, Dean Koontz...just to name a few, and there are many, many more that use this format:

Example:
Book One: Infamous
Book Two: Legends of Fire
Book Three: And in the End...

Each Book or Part is split up into a set of chapters 1-10 (or whatever).

Peter Straub: Floating Dragon
Stephen King: Pet Sematary, The Tommyknockers
Dean Koontz: The Key to Midnight

Check the format out in these books and see what I am talking about.

argenianpoet

BardSkye · May 18, 2006

argenianpoet said:
What do you mean by spellcheck; I still don't get it.

If I may help clarify? Your initial post contained spelling errors. Gillhoughly was letting you know how an editor would view a query with that sort of mistake in it; they simply do not have time to check spelling and such, nor should they have to: that's the writer's job.

argenianpoet said:
No Parts or Prologues or Interludes or Epilogues? Really?

I think that's a matter of taste. I doubt the average reader even notices. As has been pointed out in a couple of threads, most readers don't even read a prologue, so if you're using it to hook them, you most likely won't. And if you're using it to introduce the main character, you might want to re-think.

I'm in the minority: I do read prologues and had one in my own work. After seeing what the professionals on here had to say about it, I dropped it.

I'm afraid I don't read quotes at the beginning of books or chapters, though.

Starbrazer · May 18, 2006

Ok, I was not aware that there was a spellchecker on here, but I guess I should have figured that. Oh well, but I can guarantee you one thing: the query letter I sent to my first New York Agent was void of error. I had to download the ispell onto my computer in order to use it, so this is new news to me.

BardSkye · May 18, 2006

We all live and learn, right? The person who can't make a mistake hasn't been born yet, and it's especially tough when what you're asking about has no hard and fast rules.

How far along in the manuscript are you?

Starbrazer · May 19, 2006

BardSkye said:
How far along in the manuscript are you?

Presently, I am 40,000 words, at the halfway mark...

Would this be an Interlude?

Starbrazer

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Starbrazer

Starbrazer

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Starbrazer

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless

Starbrazer

Sheryl Nantus

Holding out for a Superhero...

Starbrazer

BardSkye

Barbershoppin' Harmony Whore

Starbrazer

BardSkye

Barbershoppin' Harmony Whore

Starbrazer