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bringonthepretenders
05-07-2018, 12:57 PM
Hi,

My character goes to NYU.

He is a "postgraduate student".

He has a PhD in archaeology.

He's currently undertaking his Masters.

Question: What year of schooling at college would he be in? How old would he be? And are those facts listed about accurately consistent with each other?

Thanks

neandermagnon
05-07-2018, 01:33 PM
Okay maybe this is some big USA v UK thing, but don't you usually get a master's before a PhD?

villain_fan
05-07-2018, 01:50 PM
Okay maybe this is some big USA v UK thing, but don't you usually get a master's before a PhD?

You would usually get a master's before a PhD in both the USA and UK.


How old would he be?

If he completed all of his education in America then he probably would have started his undergraduate degree at 18 (which takes 4 years normally). His MA in Archaeology probably would have taken about 2 years, and his PhD about 5 (this can vary though so I'd research what's most common for Archaeology at NYU).

bringonthepretenders
05-07-2018, 04:45 PM
Would a 25 year old generally have a steady job, their own home and management of finances by that age? Would they still live with their parents or act as though they are still an undergraduate - living in a dorm and going back to their parents house on holidays, etc?

I know it will vary from person to person, but I want the general vibe.

benbenberi
05-07-2018, 05:20 PM
Question: What year of schooling at college would he be in? How old would he be? And are those facts listed about accurately consistent with each other?


"What year of schooling at college" is a meaningless question in this context. A "postgraduate student" (in the US, usually called a "graduate student") has already completed their formal college education by graduating with a Bachelor's degree, either a BA or a BS. Postgraduate programs are not generally structured around "years of schooling" -- I recommend you go over to the NYU website to investigate for yourself what the requirements are for the course of study you want your character to be engaged in.

Generally speaking, a Masters degree is lower than a PhD. A person who already has a PhD in a discipline would never be working subsequently on a Masters in the same discipline. So your archaeology PhD character will already have received their archaeology MA or MS before they got the PhD (some schools make you do specific work to get the Masters before they admit you to a PhD program, some will admit incoming grad students directly to the PhD program and award the MA at some midpoint as a formality). If your character has a PhD in Archaeology and is now working on a Masters it must be in something completely different. (Possibly with a terminal Masters degree -- Social work, perhaps? or Fine Arts?)

As for your character's age... let us assume he graduated from college at 22 and went straight to grad school, as many young scholars do. Also assuming he is pursuing his degree on a full-time basis, not part-time while he holds down a separate job, it would be normal for him to take 5-10 years to earn a PhD, depending on the particulars of the program. After that, any amount of time at all may have elapsed before he finds himself in the middle of a new Masters.

I strongly recommend you spend some time on the NYU website & places it links to. Tons of relevant information there for you!

benbenberi
05-07-2018, 05:52 PM
Would a 25 year old generally have a steady job, their own home and management of finances by that age? Would they still live with their parents or act as though they are still an undergraduate - living in a dorm and going back to their parents house on holidays, etc?

I know it will vary from person to person, but I want the general vibe.

Many 25 year olds have steady jobs, their own homes, and manage their own finances. 25-year-old graduate students at NYU? Much less likely. 25-year-old investment bankers have difficulty affording their own place in New York -- your guy would almost certainly be sharing a tiny apartment with 2 or 3 other people, possibly at some distance away from the campus. (An apartment for 2-3 people in the NYU neighborhood is easily $4-5000/month these days. You can check the listings online.) Check on the NYU website what they say about housing for graduate students -- it's entirely possible they may have something like a grad student dorm, and if so, your guy might be able to live there if you want him to. Housing is a major issue for schools like NYU and also for young people in NYC generally, both students & otherwise. There's a lot of discussion about it in a lot of places.

If his parents live in a convenient location, it's possible he could live with them & commute to school. That's almost certainly the financially prudent choice. But there are all sorts of other factors that may argue for some other arrangement. You know your character better than we do! If the parents don't live in a convenient location, living with them is clearly not an option. But of course he's going to visit them on holidays unless there's some reason you don't want him too. Even people who are 50 years old visit their parents for holidays!

Twick
05-07-2018, 06:21 PM
Would a 25 year old generally have a steady job, their own home and management of finances by that age? Would they still live with their parents or act as though they are still an undergraduate - living in a dorm and going back to their parents house on holidays, etc?

I know it will vary from person to person, but I want the general vibe.

Students will usually not own their own homes, unless they've been bankrolled by their parents. University is expensive.

Graduate students may have a "job" as assistance to their profs, etc. Some may be working part-time on their degrees, in which case they'd usually have other jobs. However, if they're a full-time student, they likely won't have time for more than a part-time job such as waiting tables.

As others have pointed out, Masters degrees usually come before PhDs, unless one completes a PhD and then decides to move on to a new subject of study. PhD is usually the top degree available.

Old Hack
05-07-2018, 06:28 PM
One of my children is just approaching his Masters finals in a London university. (His first exam is on Wednesday: I am more anxious about this than he is.) He went through infant, junior and secondary school here, and finished his A levels as usual at the end of Year 13. At that point he was 18. He then took his bachelor's degree, which took another three years, so he's now got his BSc; his Masters has taken him a year, full time, and once he's finished he'll have an MSc.

He's now 22.

He's going to get a job, but several of his friends are going to go on to take a PhD. So yes, it's usual to do your masters before your doctorate. The only exception to this is if you want to move disciplines: I have a friend who took her degree in Oxford, and then went straight on to do a doctorate in Cambridge, both in biochemistry. A couple of decades later she then got a masters degree in a philosophy because she'd been offered a job lecturing in that subject, and thought she'd better get some relevant qualifications.

My son, and his friends, do not have jobs, full time or otherwise. They are funded by student loans and willing parents. Not all students are so lucky, but it's difficult to do the degrees they've taken while also working part-time: they're all scientists or mathematicians, and their courses are very demanding. The ones taking PhDs all have full scholarships, which will cover their tuition fees and provide a decent amount of money to live on during the course of their studies. The funding lasts three years, I think, but they expect to take four or five years to finish the doctorates.

Some of my son's friends live with their parents still as accommodation is very expensive in London. My son lived in college accommodation for the first year--called Halls here--and since then has rented a flat with three of his friends. It's cost a lot of money, but he's had a brilliant time and has been worth every penny.

I hope that's a help.

lonestarlibrarian
05-07-2018, 07:38 PM
In the US system, the usual path involves a four-year Bachelor's program, a two-year Master's program, and then a two/three/five-year Doctoral program. (My Dad got his Master's and PhD in four years, total, in Aerospace Engineering. There were other people who had been in the doctoral part of things for eight or ten years. They call those people professional students. Many of them don't intend on graduating-- they're happy being students, they like being qualified for cheap student housing, they like collecting degrees and certificates, and/or they aren't in a hurry to run out into the real world.)

Whether or not the four years of undergrad (the Bachelor's program) are completed in four years depends on the student. A full-time student should be able to take that number of credit hours and graduate on time. But there are extra circumstances that can make that harder-- like suppose you double-major. Suppose you fail a class and you have to take it twice. Suppose you try to earn a minor while you're at it. Likewise, there a way to accelerate things-- like suppose you transfer credits from a community college, that were either earned during your high school years (dual credit) or over the summer while you're at home. (You only transfer classes that are required for your degree, but not your major-- so you can transfer, say, Inorganic and Organic Chemistry, so long as you're not in a hard science-related field. Or you can transfer French I and French II, as long as you're not a language major.) So there's lots of things that will affect your age at graduation.

Moving on to your Master's, which is a graduate program, suppose you had your undergrad (Bachelor's) degree in Archaeology and Anthropology. Or Archaeology and History. Or Archaeology and Museum Studies/Museum Science. Or Archaeology and Classics (Latin + Greek). At my school, they required students in the Archaeology program to double-major, so students would pick whatever was most useful for their ultimate goal.

However, there's also the rule of thumb that you don't earn your Master's and PhD at the same school that you earned your undergrad at. The classes/lectures are pretty much the same between the BA and the MA-- just the grad students had a lot of extra work on top of it. But it is normal to get your Master's and your PhD at the same school, because the two programs build on each other, and they like to know their doctoral candidates have a particular framework to build on. However, if a lot of time has passed between someone earning their Master's and wanting to pursue a doctoral degree, there's nothing that ties them to the school that they earned their Master's at... they can apply anywhere. But if the two events were closely related in time, it's a whole lot easier to just move on up since you're already in that environment. If too much time passes, however, you lose your "student brain" and it gets hard to get back into the rhythm.

Occasionally, people want to take supplemental classes, but aren't in a program. If it's something like "Introduction to B&W Photography" or "Intro to Watercolors" and has no formal relation to their actual degree, those are generally considered "Continuing Education". They're classes that people take for their personal enrichment, but aren't necessarily as rigorous, and they may or may not have an interest in applying that information to their "real" work. Likewise, if someone takes additional courses, without actually trying for an actual degree, that would often be considered pursuing an "Academic Certificate"-- like, say, 12 hours of extra coursework might result in an academic certificate in Applied Anthropology, or Archival Management, or whatever your student might think would look good on paper, without the time commitment of a full degree.

Because ultimately, that's what a degree is-- it's a key that unlocks a door. So your student needs to figure out what door he wants unlocked, and then undertakes the coursework that would allow him entry into whatever field. You need to figure out why he's pursuing advanced degrees, because Archaeology (and Classics. And Museums. And Anthropology. And so on...) is not a well-paying field... and there's a lot you can do with just a Bachelor's. So you need to figure out what someone wants to do that makes the extra time and financial commitment a wise investment. Full-time in a Bachelor's program is 15 credit hours/semester. Full-time in a Master's or Doctoral program, however, is 9 hours/semester. (I had no clue why I could manage 21 hours my last semester of undergrad, but was struggling with 12 for my first semester of Master's work! Guess what my advisor forgot to tell me!) :D

Being a student, especially at the doctoral level, is a job. If they're not paying you to go to school at that point, you're doing it wrong...! :) For example, when I was a Museum Studies/Archaeology student in Undergrad, I spent one semester working in Oral History, and six semesters working in Collections in our campus museum. It was just a minimum wage thing, but it gave me Experience That Looks Good On Paper, and I was able to leverage that when I graduated. We didn't have a doctoral program in my degree, but if we did, they would have been Teaching Assistants, would have graded papers, would have done some lectures, and so on. Your student is going to be very conscious that the piece of paper unlocks doors, but ultimately, it's just a piece of paper. It's experience that people want to see. So your student is going to want to get experience that makes him look like he knows what he's doing in his field, rather than just having sat in a chair for eight years, listening to people talk. (Can he do an STP Survey? Can he walk 10 miles in a day carrying 40 lbs of equipment? Does he know his way around Trimble? Can he talk for fifteen minutes about the importance of Data QA/QC? Is he familiar with his Munsell Soil Chart?)

A lot will depend on whether your student is married or unmarried. If your student is unmarried, and his parents live close to campus, it would make financial sense to continue living at home. Me, I was married, and my husband was pursuing his JD while I worked on my MLS. We both worked full-time during the day. He went to the night program (which was tailored to People With Jobs and Experience and Wanting a New Direction in Life, whereas the day program was tailored to Bright Young Things Fresh Out of Undergrad), and I did WebCT, with a few electives that I chose to travel up to campus to take in person. About half the librarians in my program earned their degree through WebCT because we had real life going on... and that was more than 15 years ago, so I'm sure the numbers have gone up since then. We graduated with no debt. A friend of ours took out about $100k in loans, and lived off that while she earned her JD... it paid her bills, covered her house payments, etc, and she graduated with... $100k in debt to pay back. She did it just fine and is a very successful corporate attorney, but failure was not an option.

Archaeology is not a well-paying field. In my part of the world, you can expect to earn about $15/hr doing fieldwork with a BA, so that's not the kind of thing you'd take out a $100k loan to do. Many of the fieldwork jobs are seasonal in nature, or even shorter-term than that. It involves a lot of travel, so it's not conducive to putting down roots in a particular location. If you get into things like desk jobs-- archivists, historians, museums-- then you might have expectations in the $30k-$60k/year if you're attached to a very thriving institution. The rule of thumb is you don't want to spend more than 4 years in one place before leveraging yourself into a better position elsewhere. Archaeologists who are at the doctoral level are probably mostly interested in getting into academia.

Old Hack
05-07-2018, 09:01 PM
However, there's also the rule of thumb that you don't earn your Master's and PhD at the same school that you earned your undergrad at.

That's not the case in the UK, where many students (my son included) sign up for a four-year course which includes both a batchelors and a masters degree right from the start; and where it's common to move onto your PhD at the same university, because you get to know tutors who then become your supervisors.

Siri Kirpal
05-07-2018, 09:49 PM
Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Even in the US, some people earn all their degrees from one University. But it's not common.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Marissa D
05-07-2018, 10:11 PM
Ditto to Old Hack and Siri Kirpal--I know people from my undergrad school who got all three degrees there. Depends on the area you're specializing in--archaeology programs aren't all that common.

(signed, an archaeology Ph.D. program dropout, though from a different school from where I got my BA)

benbenberi
05-07-2018, 10:55 PM
Graduate departments in academic disciplines are not generic.They tend to have specific program priorities and specialties that are reflected in the specialization of individual faculty members. Graduate students in these disciplines apply to these programs to study in these specific areas with these particular faculty members. (Which is a huge distinction from undergraduate studies -- undergraduate programs are geared toward providing undergraduate students with a broad foundation in the disciplines, & undergraduates can and frequently do change their majors as their interests evolve & they get exposure to new things.)

It's typical that, when an undergraduate student starts looking into graduate studies, they will discover that the departments & professors that match their interests the most closely are NOT the ones at their undergraduate institution -- assuming the undergraduate institution even offers graduate degrees in the subject, which many do not. (And good faculty advisers at their undergraduate institutions will point the would-be grad student to the departments that may match them better.)

Good graduate programs are highly competitive and draw students from a national/international pool of applicants.

For these reasons, although it's possible for a student to get their undergraduate & graduate degrees from the same school, it's not very common.

On the other hand, it's extremely common for a graduate student to get their MA and PhD from the same department. In many cases, as I mentioned above, the 2 degrees are regarded as elements in the same course of study -- an incoming grad student does the coursework, research, & whatever other requirements are needed to get the MA in the first couple of years, and barring any demonstration of incompetence or bad behavior they move automatically from the MA to the PhD track to complete whatever requirements are involved at that level and do a dissertation.

A distinction is commonly made between a terminal Master's degree, which is a final step, and the type of master's degree that is a qualifying stage for a PhD. Terminal masters generally open doors to professional non-academic careers in their area (and some, like an MFA, are sufficient for academic jobs in areas where no PhD exists). In subjects where both a terminal and a pre-doctoral MA are available, graduate students may be given the option to select one or the other. In that case, only the pre-doctoral MA student will be will be considered eligible to advance into the doctoral program on completing their MA.

Elenitsa
05-08-2018, 12:42 AM
I am reading all these and getting surprised how different MSc and PhD experiences in other countries are radically different... I have a PhD in World Economics, and my experience (in Romania) was radically different. We have set years for studies, we do study at the same university (if not willing to change fields or if not getting a scholarship abroad) for all three degrees...

benbenberi
05-08-2018, 03:00 AM
I am reading all these and getting surprised how different MSc and PhD experiences in other countries are radically different...

Yes, every country handles higher ed very differently. Even US and Canada are close but not quite identical. The degrees themselves mean different things based on the different systems they're embedded in.

lonestarlibrarian
05-08-2018, 10:32 AM
One example of the three-degrees-one-school path--
Originally, I wanted to be an Egyptologist. I wanted to attend NYU, get my undergrad degree in Archaeology, and then transition into their ANEES department for my Master's/PhD work. Ta-da, one school, three degrees.

One example of the three-degrees-two-schools path--
My parents explained to me that even a private university 200 miles away was half the cost of NYU, which was 1600 miles away. So, how about if I get my ARC degree close by at the not-cheap-but-cheaper option, and then apply somewhere like U of Chicago or NYU for a Master's/PhD in Egyptology. The university I got my BA in ARC at had an excellent Biblical Archaeology program at the time, but if that wasn't your focus, you'd have no reason to stay there for your advanced degrees.

One example of the three-schools-three-degrees path--
I got my BA in ARC and Museums. I was disappointed in the ARC experience, and wanted a career path that was more stable than what spending a few decades in fieldwork would provide. I focused on the curatorial aspects of museums, and, looking to see what a good endgoal was, I set my sights on paper conservation (preservation of historic documents, not recycling). There were four programs in the US that offered a PhD in that field, and one of them was three hours away. So I got my MLS at the university that was 45 minutes away while I worked my day job, because it was a prereq for the paper conservation program... and then life went off on a tangent and I never applied/relocated to pursue the PhD.

Bolero
05-12-2018, 12:39 AM
Funnily enough, after all the people saying it is unusual to do degree and PhD at the same University, that is exactly what I did in my science subject and it was the norm where I was. Of all the PhD students in my year, about 90% had done their degree at the same place - and a fair proportion of the PhD students went onto to do post doctoral work in the research group where they'd done their PhD.

blacbird
05-12-2018, 06:19 AM
Hi,

My character goes to NYU.

He is a "postgraduate student".

He has a PhD in archaeology.

He's currently undertaking his Masters.


In what field? If there's already a Ph.D., there won't be any reason to pursue a Master's in the same field.

And it's not the common path, but it isn't unusual either, for someone to go straight for a Ph.D. without an intervening Master's degree.

caw

Enlightened
05-12-2018, 07:20 AM
Hi,

My character goes to NYU.

He is a "postgraduate student".

He has a PhD in archaeology.

He's currently undertaking his Masters.

Question: What year of schooling at college would he be in? How old would he be? And are those facts listed about accurately consistent with each other?

Thanks

High school, just before college, ends at grade 12. College is not grade 13 and up. At this point, you are in undergraduate education (with freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior levels of undergraduate education). If someone graduates high school at 18, and spend all four years earning an undergraduate degree, they would be 22 when they graduate. These are called traditional-aged students. Non-traditional students exist to (i.e. those going to school late in life, or back to school after working).

If someone took advanced placement (AP) classes in high school, they may be able to eliminate two years of the undergraduate degree, because the AP classes count as college credit. This person would be 20 instead of 22 when they earned their degree.

Master's degrees come before doctorate degrees, although one does not have to earn a master's to earn a doctorate in some disciplines. Master's come in three varieties: professional (e.g. M.Ed.); research based; non-research based. I completed my professional master's in one year, because it only had classes and a 100-hour internship (i.e. no research). Non-research masters can be completed in a year too. The chances of completing a research-based master's is highly unlikely. Maybe 1-3 years to complete a master's degree. EDIT: The chances of completing a research-based master's, on one year, is highly unlikely.

Ph.D. (research-based doctorate) is different in the U.S. (compared to places like Australia and England). In the U.S., Ph.D. students must complete A LOT more classes than students in other countries. In Australia, I think 3 years is the norm to complete a Ph.D. In the U.S., depending on the Ph.D., four or five years is the norm.

The Ph.D. is not the only doctorate. There are professional doctorates as well (J.D., M.D., Ed.D., DPA, and so forth). These can take different amounts of time. A J.D. (law school) is usually completed in 3 years. Some of these degrees require original research. A Ph.D. in Higher Education, compared to an Ed.D. in Higher Education, usually requires more time to complete and more, original research.

"Postgraduate" means any education after completing an undergraduate degree. This can be a graduate certificate, a second bachelor's after the first is completed, a master's, or a doctorate. There are postdocs (for scientists who work in labs at research universities that earned their doctorates). There are postdoctoral research fellows, but these are not students. This person might be conducting research for one or more professors, or conducting their own research (while using the expensive equipment to conduct it).

In general, any doctorate degree is considered a terminal degree (i.e. no degree above it) for the discipline it was earned in, such as archaeology. A person with a Ph.D. in this discipline would not go back to earn a master's in it. Likely, they'd have one already.

Helix
05-12-2018, 12:26 PM
Ph.D. (research-based doctorate) is different in the U.S. (compared to places like Australia and England). In the U.S., Ph.D. students must complete A LOT more classes than students in other countries. In Australia, I think 3 years is the norm to complete a Ph.D. In the U.S., depending on the Ph.D., four or five years is the norm.

That's because admission to a research PhD in Australia requires an Honours degree, which comes after the Bachelor degree. Honours, which is a year full time, has a significant research component. Admission to a research PhD usually requires a 1st or upper 2nd class degree. For those with lower Hons or without Hons, there's still the opportunity to do a PhD by enrolling in a Master by research and then converting after a couple of years. But conversion is not automatic. You have to convince the P'grad Committee that your research is PhD-worthy and that you are capable of completing it.

I can't comment on the current structure in the UK. I did my undergrad degree there...er...some time ago...and I'm sure it's all changed since then.



"Postgraduate" means any education after completing an undergraduate degree. This can be a graduate certificate, a second bachelor's after the first is completed, a master's, or a doctorate. There are postdocs (for scientists who work in labs at research universities that earned their doctorates). There are postdoctoral research fellows, but these are not students. This person might be conducting research for one or more professors, or conducting their own research (while using the expensive equipment to conduct it).

My emphasis. No. A second, third or nth bachelor's degree is an undergraduate degree.

Albedo
05-12-2018, 03:27 PM
My emphasis. No. A second, third or nth bachelor's degree is an undergraduate degree.
This gets a bit complicated in medicine. My second degree is a Bachelor of Medicine/Bachelor of Surgery, but because medicine requires a prior undergraduate degree, is it a 'graduate degree'? But then, as the uni I went to is changing the name of the degree to MD (to the chagrin of everyone in Australia who earned an MD as a true higher degree, through research), does it become a post-grad degree? Nothing about the program is changing except the letters you get at the end.

Helix
05-12-2018, 03:39 PM
This gets a bit complicated in medicine. My second degree is a Bachelor of Medicine/Bachelor of Surgery, but because medicine requires a prior undergraduate degree, is it a 'graduate degree'? But then, as the uni I went to is changing the name of the degree to MD (to the chagrin of everyone in Australia who earned an MD as a true higher degree, through research), does it become a post-grad degree? Nothing about the program is changing except the letters you get at the end.

Oh, yeah, the current structure of medical (and law) degrees are beyond my ken. It used to be less complicated before the AQF reclassified everything.

Albedo
05-12-2018, 04:09 PM
Oh, yeah, the current structure of medical (and law) degrees are beyond my ken. It used to be less complicated before the AQF reclassified everything.
I've honestly got no idea where an MBBS fits in that framework. (Probably Bachelor's. It's always seemed a bit unfair I get to call myself 'Dr' with a measly Bachelor's degree, lol.)

benbenberi
05-12-2018, 06:02 PM
As I mentioned above, every country handles everything about higher ed in a completely different way. Since the original post concerned a graduate student at NYU, only information about US-based universities and degrees is directly applicable. But it's fascinating to see the range of variability elsewhere!

davidjgalloway
05-12-2018, 07:06 PM
If someone took advanced placement (AP) classes in high school, they may be able to eliminate two years of the undergraduate degree, because the AP classes count as college credit. This person would be 20 instead of 22 when they earned their degree.

With the caveat that many schools restrict the total number of AP credits you can apply to your degree and may also restrict how they are used. For instance, we do not allow them to satisfy general education credits and their value in a given major is subject to the discretion of that department. We restrict to 7 courses, which is less than one year and so you wouldn't be able to shave two years off of the normal four in that system.

cornflake
05-12-2018, 07:15 PM
Yeah, I've never heard of anyone actually getting credit for AP classes. I'm sure it probably happens someplace but... I got nothing for any of 'em; I know kids now with like seven APs they have 4s and 5s in who got nothing for them...

I was able to test out of a bunch of reqs once I got on campus but that was school-specific testing that opted out of specific gen-ed reqs.

ETA: Oh, not true -- I recall a kid who got a 5 on the AP Latin who was able to opt out of the first year of the classical language requirement at an Ivy, though I think he had to take Latin 2? I did not try AP Latin, heh. Four years of regular Latin and all I can remember is how to discuss toga shopping.

Enlightened
05-12-2018, 08:22 PM
With the caveat that many schools restrict the total number of AP credits you can apply to your degree and may also restrict how they are used. For instance, we do not allow them to satisfy general education credits and their value in a given major is subject to the discretion of that department. We restrict to 7 courses, which is less than one year and so you wouldn't be able to shave two years off of the normal four in that system.

This is good information, but with taking interim and summer classes (coupled with course-overloading), it is possible for them to finish the degree in two years.

Enlightened
05-12-2018, 08:30 PM
My emphasis. No. A second, third or nth bachelor's degree is an undergraduate degree.

Thanks for the clarification on the Australia Ph.D. system. Here in the U.S., some schools count master's level work in their Ph.D. requirements. Other schools, like the University of Denver (Colorado, USA), does not allow comparative coursework to be substituted (in a master's program) if the classes were completed from a conferred degree program. From your description, it appears all Australian universities allow pre-Ph.D. work to count (and require less time to complete the program).

I think the second bachelor being postgraduate is subjective. It is earned after one graduates from an undergraduate program. Technically, the student is an undergraduate student, but is doing the work "postgraduate" to his first degree.

P.K. Torrens
05-12-2018, 09:35 PM
I've honestly got no idea where an MBBS fits in that framework. (Probably Bachelor's. It's always seemed a bit unfair I get to call myself 'Dr' with a measly Bachelor's degree, lol.)

Albedo
MBChB/MBBS is counted as a double bachelor degree.
Re. your degree becoming MD - Surely, if it's just a name change, it should still be an undergraduate degree as you haven't graduated yet? Weird. I lament Australia Americanizing its education :tongue Although, you guys do already have private medical schools.

What confuses me is that you can become a medical doctor (MD) in America by doing a osteopaths undergrad... wtf, right? In British/Aus/NZ systems, osteopathic treatment is alternative and isn't taught in academic universities.

Enlightened
05-12-2018, 10:16 PM
What confuses me is that you can become a medical doctor (MD) in America by doing a chiropractor undergrad... wtf, right? In British/Aus/NZ systems, chiropractic treatment is alternative and isn't taught in academic universities.

In America, we have a distinction of medical doctors called D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine). These doctors do adjustments as well as traditional M.D. work. I prefer these over M.D.s, because I can get something popped back in place (and they have the knowledge to see and correct instead of offering pain killers and physical therapy for weeks on end).

P.K. Torrens
05-12-2018, 10:32 PM
In America, we have a distinction of medical doctors called D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine). These doctors do adjustments as well as traditional M.D. work. I prefer these over M.D.s, because I can get something popped back in place (and they have the knowledge to see and correct instead of offering pain killers and physical therapy for weeks on end).

Oops, sorry. I quoted chiropractic instead of osteopathy... I get the two muddled. My bad.

Yep. The problem is that spinal manipulation is controversial, scientifically.

Does it provide relief? Yes. Undoubtedly.

However, the biological model osteopathy provides is baloney. Manipulation does not reduce subluxation of vertebrae but *probably* compresses sensory nerves, stopping their conduction for weeks to months... until you need them squished again. Questions regarding long-term safety of manipulation have not been adequately answered.

cornflake
05-12-2018, 10:36 PM
Albedo
MBChB/MBBS is counted as a double bachelor degree.
Re. your degree becoming MD - Surely, if it's just a name change, it should still be an undergraduate degree as you haven't graduated yet? Weird. I lament Australia Americanizing its education :tongue Although, you guys do already have private medical schools.

What confuses me is that you can become a medical doctor (MD) in America by doing a chiropractor undergrad... wtf, right? In British/Aus/NZ systems, chiropractic treatment is alternative and isn't taught in academic universities.

Noooo, no you can't. I've never heard of a chiropractor undergrad, though this may be a miscommunication between UK/US...

In the US, undergrad would be pre-med or majoring in biology or the like and graduate with a bachelor's degree. Then a prospective MD would go to medical school for four years (you graduate with an MD), then have a year of internship (closely overseen, rotating through specialties in a hospital setting) and usually three years of residency (usually targeting the specialty the person is interested in).

A prospective chiropractor goes to chiropractic college after undergrad, to get a DC -- the whole thing is three years to completion, not seven or eight, like a year or so of coursework and then practice.

Some schools don't require a full BS to apply to chiropractic schools; I've never heard of that for med schools. I believe pretty much all med schools require a BS.

Veterinary School btw, in the U.S., is harder to get into than med school (there are fewer, and it's arguably harder, education-wise, as it's the same thing but for multiple species) and is just like med school -- you need a BS (plus demonstrated experience working with animals), then vet school is four years, plus a year of internship, then residency.

Both med and vet school have extensive boards (comprehensive exams that you have to take between internship and residency -- they're like two full days each part, come in two parts Boards I and II, people take entire months off to study following their internships) that are the path to licensure.

P.K. Torrens
05-12-2018, 10:37 PM
And I won't even get into the quackery that osteopathy proclaims in areas such as infectious disease. For example, they associate infections with spinal misalignment, despite there being absolutely no scientific evidence for that.

P.K. Torrens
05-12-2018, 10:39 PM
Noooo, no you can't. I've never heard of a chiropractor undergrad, though this may be a miscommunication between UK/US...


My bad. I meant osteopathy not chiropractic.

cornflake
05-12-2018, 10:41 PM
My bad. I meant osteopathy not chiropractic.

Yah, sorry, I saw that after I'd typed the whole thing, heh.

You still have to go to med school to be an osteopath I think? You don't get an MD without med school.

Enlightened
05-12-2018, 10:48 PM
However, the biological model osteopathy provides is baloney. Manipulation does not reduce subluxation of vertebrae but *probably* compresses sensory nerves, stopping its conduction for weeks to months... until you need it compressed again. Questions regarding long-term safety of manipulation have not been adequately answered.

Abuse of adjustments is certainly a bad thing (e.g. Alannah Myles (http://www.680news.com/2011/07/01/alannah-myles-shares-tragic-health-news-with-canada-day-crowd/)). Your body's atlas (horizontal line between shoulders and vertical spinal column) can and does get out of alignment. For me, I used to sling a heavy backpack over one shoulder. My thoracic vertebrate went out of alignment because of it. I had some adjustments to pop it back in place from my D.O.

I don't do long-term adjustments, so I cannot comment on any ill-effects.

cornflake
05-12-2018, 10:57 PM
I tried to figure out the osteopath thing. Apparently yes, it's simply a medical specialty, same as psychiatry. You need a BS, then four years of medical school, etc., and then you specialize in osteopathy.

From the Assn of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine page (http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/about-om)


Today, more than 20 percent of medical students in the United States are training to be osteopathic physicians.

Osteopathic physicians can choose any specialty, prescribe drugs, perform surgeries, and practice medicine anywhere in the United States.

Legally, to be able to do those things, you must have an MD from an accredited school, internship, and a license which requires the accredited degree and passing of licensing tests and etc.

Enlightened
05-12-2018, 11:03 PM
Legally, to be able to do those things, you must have an MD from an accredited school, internship, and a license which requires the accredited degree and passing of licensing tests and etc.

Yes. My current D.O. had his M.D. before he went back and earned the D.O.

P.K. Torrens
05-13-2018, 12:13 AM
I tried to figure out the osteopath thing. Apparently yes, it's simply a medical specialty, same as psychiatry. You need a BS, then four years of medical school, etc., and then you specialize in osteopathy.

From the Assn of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine page (http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/about-om)



Legally, to be able to do those things, you must have an MD from an accredited school, internship, and a license which requires the accredited degree and passing of licensing tests and etc.

Truly gob-smacking.

Helix
05-13-2018, 02:50 AM
Thanks for the clarification on the Australia Ph.D. system. Here in the U.S., some schools count master's level work in their Ph.D. requirements. Other schools, like the University of Denver (Colorado, USA), does not allow comparative coursework to be substituted (in a master's program) if the classes were completed from a conferred degree program. From your description, it appears all Australian universities allow pre-Ph.D. work to count (and require less time to complete the program).


It counts only if it of is a sufficiently high level. Honours is a complete degree in itself. It's not necessarily in the same topic as the PhD and is treated as a year of research training. This means there's much less coursework in a PhD program.

When converting from a Master's degree to a PhD, the time already spent on research might be -- but isn't always -- counted towards the PhD.

Not so long ago, doctoral students were allowed to take as long as they liked to complete their degree. Now there's a minimum and maximum time for completion. (I took 3.5 years.)


I think the second bachelor being postgraduate is subjective. It is earned after one graduates from an undergraduate program. Technically, the student is an undergraduate student, but is doing the work "postgraduate" to his first degree.

The degree is undergraduate. Presumably, the student is doing that degree for the first time.

Summonere
05-14-2018, 02:38 AM
I graduated high school at 17, went to college at 18, three years later had a BA, and two years after that an MA, graduating at 23. A PhD was deferred. Life intruded. Now I'm a lot older and have 3/4 of another MA in another field altogether, probably won't bother to finish that one, and most likely will never pursue that PhD. For what it's worth, that's how the timing worked out.

waylander
05-14-2018, 04:03 PM
My experience in the UK a few (ahem) years ago was a 3 year first degree course with upper second class degree, straight onto PhD research which was funded for 3 years. The first year writeup was considered a masters thesis. I wrote up my PhD thesis in the last few months on funding while doing labwork. It is generally a good idea to writeup before starting your post-doc/new job. Having stayed in touch with the system as I've been industrial superviser for PhD students, I can say not much has changed except that most undergrad chemistry courses now are 4 yrs, some of which end with a MChem, some PhDs are now funded for 4 yrs.