Sprawling Plot

Elianne · Apr 22, 2018

Hello everyone! I was hoping to pick your brains on an issue I've been struggling with i.e. convoluted plot lines. Now, I'm a plantser but for the novel I'm writing - sprawling world, huge cast - I decided that the best way forward was to write a plot and mark out when major events happen and where each of the MCs happen to be at. My problem? My plot consists of around 120 chapters for the 1st book. I've written about 20% of that and have already hit the 110k word mark.

My question is simple: If you were in my position, would you pause the writing and take a deep hard look at the plot before moving forward or just proceed with writing the story (all 120 chapters) before doing an extremely brutal edit? Bearing in mind that I do even with the plot written out, I do allow for flexibility - the characters still do things that surprise me, events happen that weren't in the original plot - but the general direction in which the story and the whole cast is moving towards remains the same. It frustrates me because I'm aware of what a SF novel length normally is; with my word count, I should already be wrapping the story up but right now, my cast has barely begun their journey! And if I continue at this rate, I'll need to look at cutting around 80% of what I'll have written!

Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you!

blacbird · Apr 22, 2018

My initial impression, not knowing more specifics, is that this sounds like multiple books in a series. You may be just trying to cram way too much into a single book.

caw

Enlightened · Apr 22, 2018

Warning for those on mobile devices, below is a 38+ min video....

You should watch Brandon Sanderson (starting at 17:56 minutes into the below video) talk about when he started plotting, he planned a 36 book arc across 16 worlds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQwT0FQdLRI

It sounds like you either have: 1) multiple books sharing the same characters, worlds, other; or 2) a book series.

Your work is WAY too long for one book. Write one book. If it sells, write more. Self-publishing is another option. If you are not looking to sell it, write it however you want.

indianroads · Apr 22, 2018

Sometimes the plot just gets tangled up. You might try trimming back some of what is not essential to the story.

Bufty · Apr 22, 2018

The issue seems to be you feel you have too much for one novel already.

If it were me, and it's not, I would probably write on and see what comes out in the wash. Probably, but how can I possibly know?

So long as you're organised and can keep track of the characters and where they are and what they are doing and how all the plot threads criss and cross, I would imagine it's all in the execution.

You may find you have written a series - you may have several novels and need to separate them - you may have written an epic with volumes - you'll only know when you get there.

You could keep going and enjoy the journey - especially when the characters seem to keep surprising you. Even though we're always in the driving seat, it's always worthwhile and can be very rewarding to listen to our characters.

There's bound to be one or two here who've already been through the experience you're having. I'm not one of them but I'm sure someone will appear shortly and give the benefit of their experience.

Happy choosing :snoopy:

Bugjune · Apr 22, 2018

It also sounds like you have a series, however, you need to make sure the first book is sufficiently satisfying so they will keep reading the others. I'm also writing a series, was 3 but now it's 4 after my betas both thought the first book should be two as it was just too fast at 110k words. Write it all and then edit with a machete.

JJ Crafts · Apr 22, 2018

Like the others have said it sounds like you're writing a series. Is there any major plot points that could be used as the main conflict of book one and then a different one for a second.
But something else, because you mentioned they've only just got started on their journey after over 100k, it sounds like you've started the book too early in the plot. Is it possible to cut forward. Do you really need all those chapters? You want to get across the characters and the world to the reader, yes, but can you do it after the plot gets moving?

A good example of this would be A Game of Thrones. (I'm just going to assume you know what I'm talking about as it's the right genre) It doesn't start in Kings landing as Jon Arran is dying. It didn't even start at his funeral when the king decided to go north. It doesn't start on the journey north when all those characters start to get moving. It starts when they ARRIVE in winterfell and we find out the rest later. So I'd ask yourself what bits do you really need to have at the start and can you jump forward?

sideshowdarb · Apr 22, 2018

Hi Elianne, sounds to me like you have a series on your hands. When I was writing the first book of the trilogy I'm currently writing, I got to a point about 400 pages in where I realized my original conception would result in something very, very long. I was already at a natural end point, so I stopped and looked at what I had. Doing this opened new doors I had never considered and allowed the trilogy to take shape. I would look at what you have, see if you have the bones of a beginning middle and end in your work to date. Think about what you want to do with the rest of the story, and let it take shape.

Best of luck with your writing!

WilliamBarnes38 · Apr 22, 2018

I would make all of those plots into multiple books in a series. Keep each book more focused and easier to follow. Plus a series makes more money than one book.

Odile_Blud · Apr 22, 2018

My advice, honestly, would be to go through and see how much of that you don't need (e.g filler, over description, lengthy dialogue scenes, etc.) I say that because I had a novel a few years ago that managed to his the 50k mark and it was still the beginning of the story, and this was a contemporary fiction mind you. Then I went through it to see what exactly caused it to be so long and discovered that there were scene filled with useless filler and dialogue between characters that went on forever.

Now, I haven't seen you manuscript, so I could be wrong, but my best advice would be to go through it and see what exactly is making it that long, and anything you feel isn't absolutely necessary for the novel, go ahead and kill it.

Tip as far as dialogue goes (if you find that may be the problem): A lot of dialogue can take only a few sentences to get to the point. This usually isn't something you notice you your manuscript (or at least for me anyway) until you've gone back and looked at it again after a while.

cornflake · Apr 22, 2018

Elianne said:
Hello everyone! I was hoping to pick your brains on an issue I've been struggling with i.e. convoluted plot lines. Now, I'm a plantser but for the novel I'm writing - sprawling world, huge cast - I decided that the best way forward was to write a plot and mark out when major events happen and where each of the MCs happen to be at. My problem? My plot consists of around 120 chapters for the 1st book. I've written about 20% of that and have already hit the 110k word mark.

My question is simple: If you were in my position, would you pause the writing and take a deep hard look at the plot before moving forward or just proceed with writing the story (all 120 chapters) before doing an extremely brutal edit? Bearing in mind that I do even with the plot written out, I do allow for flexibility - the characters still do things that surprise me, events happen that weren't in the original plot - but the general direction in which the story and the whole cast is moving towards remains the same. It frustrates me because I'm aware of what a SF novel length normally is; with my word count, I should already be wrapping the story up but right now, my cast has barely begun their journey! And if I continue at this rate, I'll need to look at cutting around 80% of what I'll have written!

Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you!

If you know you'll be cutting 80% of what you'll be writing, personally, yeah, I'd cut out the middleman there.

You may have a series but given the bolded, I'd wonder if you're including a lot that doesn't need to be in there at all.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Apr 22, 2018

I think you've got a lot of good advice already, but back to your original question: If you were in my position, would you pause the writing and take a deep hard look at the plot before moving forward or just proceed with writing the story (all 120 chapters) before doing an extremely brutal edit?

I've done the latter. I've written a gargantuan story (although not as big as your projected final wordcount, about 350k and still unfinished) and then gone back and tried to wrangle it into publishable novel length volumes. It's definitely the harder road, and usually results in so much rewriting you end up asking yourself whether it'd be easier just to start again from scratch.

So I'd probably recommend you spend a little longer on the plotting stage and see if you can divide it into smaller chunks before you write it. This will also help with your structure and pacing, because it will encourage you to think of each volume as a self contained story, with an arc and plot points that lead towards some sort of climax, even if the overall story doesn't conclude until the last volume. It might be that your first novel isn't all that exciting because the story hasn't really started yet - you said you're 110k in and they have yet to set off on their journey? In that case you've either started too early, or you haven't reached a proper place to end book 1 yet. I found the same thing when I went to chop my magnum opus into a trilogy - the first third just didn't contain enough story or conclude enough plot threads to be a satisfying novel on its own. So I ended up including 2 thirds of the story in book 1, and now I've had to beef up the final third with some extra plot to turn it into a decent book 2. But I've beefed it up so much I'm thinking of chopping that into two as well and going back to the idea of a trilogy

Anyway, in short: yes, I advise you to divide it into volumes and work on the structure before you start out, so you can avoid the pain I went through

Elianne · Apr 22, 2018

Everyone, thank you! Really appreciate so many people taking the time to respond to my query.

Editing: Retrospectively, the excess/filler writings are evident and I can see how my existing chapters can be combined or edited out altogether. My problem however is the parts that are excessive / unnecessary become clear only after I've written them - argh! It's a constant battle between: do I edit what I've already written or just plod on (knowing full well that gigantic portion of what I've written might never see the light of day)?!

Multiple books: Again, another thought I had toyed with. The reason why I'm focused on all the plots being in Book 1 is because while there are a number of conflicts that occur, none are so big as the one I've planned at the very end of the 120 chapters. The current book takes place in one nation, whereas the major conflict will see the characters being flung to different parts of the world I've created. As such, it would be ideal to keep all the plot I have so far in the first book. The way forward may very well be to just cut the plot down

Kallithrix, the concern/pain you raised is one that is haunting me right now!!

cornflake · Apr 22, 2018

Have you considered the possibility that, say, chapters 1-100 aren't needed at all?

What if you started at 101 and tried that, then tried weaving in the backstory?

blacbird · Apr 22, 2018

Elianne said:
My problem however is the parts that are excessive / unnecessary become clear only after I've written them

Which puts you in a big population of good company, including many (perhaps most) people here. You just plain cannot think you will write with ideal succinctness and clarity in a rough draft. Just . . . . can't.

So don't.

caw

Elianne · Apr 22, 2018

cornflake said:
Have you considered the possibility that, say, chapters 1-100 aren't needed at all?

What if you started at 101 and tried that, then tried weaving in the backstory?

Ahhh to be honest, this is exactly how it first happened! I wanted to open with the major conflict so I wrote that, then I realised that there was far too much backstory so I took time out to draft out what had happened previously / who the characters were. One thing led to another, and the result was this mammoth 100 chapters!

Which puts you in a big population of good company, including many (perhaps most) people here. You just plain cannot think you will write with ideal succinctness and clarity in a rough draft. Just . . . . can't.

So don't.

caw

That's comforting to know

cornflake · Apr 22, 2018

Yeah, I'd suggest forgetting the first 100 or so chapter outlines exist and just starting the book where it should likely start.

frimble3 · Apr 22, 2018

Elianne said:
Ahhh to be honest, this is exactly how it first happened! I wanted to open with the major conflict so I wrote that, then I realised that there was far too much backstory so I took time out to draft out what had happened previously / who the characters were. One thing led to another, and the result was this mammoth 100 chapters!

Write it all, if you have to, but once you are finished, see how much of that backstory you really need. My guess, not as much as you think.
Very few stories of WWII begin with biographies of the leading generals. Or, the natures of all the countries that took part. Very few Westerns start with the American Revolution. People catch on more quickly than we think.

BethS · Apr 22, 2018

Elianne said:
My question is simple: If you were in my position, would you pause the writing and take a deep hard look at the plot before moving forward or just proceed with writing the story (all 120 chapters) before doing an extremely brutal edit? ... And if I continue at this rate, I'll need to look at cutting around 80% of what I'll have written!

Sounds like the story is too big for one book. If you keep writing and then manage to cut 80%, what you'll end up with will be nothing more than bones.

So your choice comes down to how badly you want it to fit in one volume. If you're not married to that idea, then you could just keep writing while knowing this story is never going to fit into one volume and you're going to have to divide it up. I have some experience with that. *cough*

Quinn_Inuit · Apr 23, 2018

You've got a lot going on here. I think the general consensus that you have a series is correct. If you approach it like that, you'll have an easier time regarding backstory, since that can literally become another story.

I recommend taking stock of the different narrative arcs in your planned plot and seeing which ones can function as stand-alone stories, which ones should be in a series, and how many different series you have.

Also, if you need to cut, I'd like to direct your attention to an old thread of mine on how to make enormous, slashing edits: https://absolutewrite.com/forums/sh...ve-Cutting-or-Chainsaw-Use-for-Fun-and-Profit

Feel free to PM me additional questions, especially on the topic of breaking out separate narrative arcs. I occasionally miss thread replies due to being a semi-lurker these days, but I'll see those.

Ji'ire · Apr 24, 2018

Elianne said:
Ahhh to be honest, this is exactly how it first happened! I wanted to open with the major conflict so I wrote that, then I realised that there was far too much backstory so I took time out to draft out what had happened previously / who the characters were. One thing led to another, and the result was this mammoth 100 chapters!

It sounds as if the major conflict should be the focus of your attention for now, I would keep going forward and then analyze afterwards what the story looks like.
100 Chapters of backstory is just way too much if you want the major conflict to be the focus point of the book, and even if you cut it down heavily there's no guarantee it would work as things might start to feel rushed and too fast-paced (You also mentioned a big cast).

My advice is no decision has to be made yet, even if your book starts at chapter 101 you can still use those 100 chapters of backstory as a really useful reference point, potentially take segments and put them after chapter 101 or use that backstory as a spin-off book for after we've read the main story.

WriteMinded · Apr 25, 2018

I had to laugh when I read the OPs post. Sounds like my first book. I was over 200k and wasn't even at midpoint when I started to question the length. Imagine my horror, when I looked up the average size of novels.

Oh well, my research brought me here, so it all worked out.

kelzey2 · May 7, 2018

I say write it all then figure out what to do.

Cindyt · May 7, 2018

Elianne said:
Hello everyone! I was hoping to pick your brains on an issue I've been struggling with i.e. convoluted plot lines. Now, I'm a plantser but for the novel I'm writing - sprawling world, huge cast - I decided that the best way forward was to write a plot and mark out when major events happen and where each of the MCs happen to be at. My problem? My plot consists of around 120 chapters for the 1st book. I've written about 20% of that and have already hit the 110k word mark.

My question is simple: If you were in my position, would you pause the writing and take a deep hard look at the plot before moving forward or just proceed with writing the story (all 120 chapters) before doing an extremely brutal edit? Bearing in mind that I do even with the plot written out, I do allow for flexibility - the characters still do things that surprise me, events happen that weren't in the original plot - but the general direction in which the story and the whole cast is moving towards remains the same. It frustrates me because I'm aware of what a SF novel length normally is; with my word count, I should already be wrapping the story up but right now, my cast has barely begun their journey! And if I continue at this rate, I'll need to look at cutting around 80% of what I'll have written!

Would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you!

I had the same problem with my historical. So, I'm currently rebuilding it. All scenes and plots that don't directly mesh with the main plot go into my deleted scene file.

DanielSTJ · May 7, 2018

I would say go for the rough writing and then tough editing.

Just my two cents!

Sprawling Plot

Elianne

blacbird

Enlightened

Always Learning

indianroads

Wherever I go, there I am.

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Bugjune

JJ Crafts

sideshowdarb

WilliamBarnes38

Odile_Blud

-_-

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Elianne

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

blacbird

Elianne

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

BethS

Quinn_Inuit

Not a real eskimo

Ji'ire

WriteMinded

Derailed

kelzey2

Still waiting . . .

Cindyt

Gettin wiggy wit it

DanielSTJ

The Wandering Bard