Would you sign with a publisher...

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Maze Runner

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who's been sued by more than one author for non-payment of royalties? It's been a few years since, and there are other points in their favor, such as more than one book on the NYT Bestseller list, a couple of awards, one or two known authors, and other things like a small advance, hardcovers, etc.? Add to this a novel that though I've gotten favorable responses from readers and agents and publishers, is admittedly not going to be everyone's cup 'a tea.
 

Ari Meermans

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Not without further research and serious scrutiny, no. The favorable points you list are good to know and are somewhat mitigating, but they wouldn't seal the deal for me.
 

Maze Runner

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Probably a no-brainer, thanks. I think I might be trying to talk myself into it.
 

Ari Meermans

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The desire to be published can be quite strong. And, of course, I'm the overly-cautious type and I do remain steadfastly in the camp "It's better to remain unpublished than to be badly published." That, of course, includes self-publishing: Do it right or don't do it. :)
 
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Maze Runner

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And when you want something, that's when you're an easy mark. I'm not as cautious as I should be, and worse, I'm impatient, so the waiting is indeed the hardest part. Especially now, about out, you know? Thanks very much, Ari. I think I'll take you advice.
 

Ari Meermans

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I do know. Impatience SHOULD have been my middle name (instead of Elisabeth). Some things in life are too important—such as one's writing career—to play fast-and-loose with, tho'.
 

frimble3

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And, how many is 'more than one'? Half a dozen, dozens, enough for a class-action lawsuit? If there are enough, and annoyed enough, to have made it to the Internet, then it doesn't sound good. From what I've read on AW, 'suing' usually comes after a lengthy period of asking, pleading, begging and threatening. It's the last step.
 

Maze Runner

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I think I know what I'm gonna do. Thanks, guys.
 
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cool pop

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Hell no.

Meow!
 
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be frank

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On second thoughts, you should never take any kind of risk ever and always advise caution.

*shakes head in disbelief*

When people advise caution because someone's considering handing over rights to their book to a publisher that's been sued for dodgy dealings in the past ... you seriously think they're saying "never take any kind of risk ever"?

:Wha:
 

Ari Meermans

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On second thoughts, you should never take any kind of risk ever and always advise caution.

*shakes head in disbelief*

Yes, we advised caution; there's not a thing wrong with being cautious. A calculated risk—a risk taken after weighing known factors against probable outcomes—is a very different thing to never taking a risk, at all. Weighing the probability of possible outcomes is a smart business practice and planning your writing career is serious business. Or, should be. (All writers should learn the business side of writing—it's your armor against scams and other dodgy dealings.) Throwing caution to the wind (as the cliche goes) is not at all smart.
 

Undercover

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It sounds tempting, but will you even get paid? If other authors are having problems with it, you will too I'm sure. And that's one of the biggest red flags there is (other than being charged, that's the worst....never go down that road.)

I know how it is to pretty much exhaust all leads with agents and publishers. But Ari is right. It's better to be unpublished than published with a bad publisher. I've been published by crappy publishers in the past and it's only made me move far away from them. I'm also hoping that maybe, just maybe one of my novels will work with a big publisher and then I could go back to my unpublished novels and try to submit that to them. But once you're in, doesn't mean you'll stay in. Publishing is a fickle thing. You never really know what they're going to want. A novel you've written years ago might be big later on.
 

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On second thoughts, you should never take any kind of risk ever and always advise caution.

*shakes head in disbelief*

There's risk, and there's risk. I've had to sue someone. We were 100% in the right, and we won. It was a hideous experience, and something I'd never consciously risk having to do around my writing.

An underlying assumption here is that an unscrupulous publisher will somehow do better for you than, say, self-publishing. That's absolutely untrue. An unscrupulous publisher can tie up your rights and your money and your time, not to mention less quantifiable things like your creativity and your motivation. An unscrupulous publisher can hamstring - or even destroy - your career.

These days there are too many reputable alternatives to risk your work with a publisher who's proven to be dishonest. The idea that getting published by anyone is somehow better than not getting published at all is how places like Publish America keep popping up under different names like unwhacked moles. You will not get paid back in publicity and name recognition. That's not a thing.

Risk is polishing your work and querying. Risk is pulling together a professional package to self-pub. Risk is sitting down and writing the next book when the last one went nowhere. Risk is continuing to believe in your own words.

It's not handing over the car keys to someone who promises those last four car wrecks were just a mistake, really, and anyway, they'll pay you back for sure.
 

AW Admin

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You can only sell first rights once.

And yes, being badly published is much worse than never being published at all.

People die of exposure. Ask Harlan Ellison (profanity ensues).
 
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Carrie in PA

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No.

But just to play the devil's advocate for a second - anyone can sue anyone for anything. Doesn't mean they'll win. What was the outcome of the lawsuits? How many lawsuits? Did the people who sued have a history of suing other companies? Did they sue prematurely? How long ago were these lawsuits? Did the company address the lawsuits? Like maybe they used an unscrupulous accountant who they fired and immediately made good on? Was the company right/wrong but in good faith?

I probably wouldn't work with them, but I'm nosy, so I'd probably do some more digging regardless. (Ooooh another procrastination rabbit hole!)
 

Ari Meermans

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No.

But just to play the devil's advocate for a second - anyone can sue anyone for anything. Doesn't mean they'll win. What was the outcome of the lawsuits? How many lawsuits? Did the people who sued have a history of suing other companies? Did they sue prematurely? How long ago were these lawsuits? Did the company address the lawsuits? Like maybe they used an unscrupulous accountant who they fired and immediately made good on? Was the company right/wrong but in good faith?

I probably wouldn't work with them, but I'm nosy, so I'd probably do some more digging regardless. (Ooooh another procrastination rabbit hole!)

Yep, but that's gathering more information on which to make an informed decision. (It's not playing devil's advocate.)
 

The Black Prince

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Perhaps being a lawyer myself gives me a slightly different take on this situation, but let's put that to one side...

My original comment was made purely in the spirit of an alternative perspective against the tide of advice saying no. And why should there be an alternative perspective? Because getting published in the mainstream is really hard and if someone offers you publication (meaning your masterpiece is going to be on the shelves in shops) it needs to be taken very seriously. Of course you need to protect yourself and you need to be aware of the risks, but how would you feel looking back on your "career" if that was the only shot you ever got and you turned it down? How do you know it would not have turned out OK...or even really well?

In fact my sister was confronted with a very similar dilemma in 2015. She had been trying to be published since the late 80s and at last she was offered publication by a small but mainstream publisher - after nearly 30 years of trying. She showed me the contract because she had concerns about it - and rightly so. It was a bit of a rip off, overwhelmingly favouring the publisher but I knew she was torn, despite her mild outrage at the contract. I said to her: "Do you have more books in you?" and she replied, that yes, she had lots more ideas. So I said: "If you have confidence in your ability to keep producing, you could just see this contract as an investment in your writing future. This will at least get you onto the shelves and develop your brand."

So she signed the terrible contract. The book has sold over 50,000 copies in Australia (which is a lot here) - she's been featured on major network TV - she's done heaps of appearances and readings - she's made some money (not near as much as she should have) - and now she's very well known in her sector of the market and has signed a much better contract for her next book. She is now in exactly the place she wanted to be as a writing professional.

So, what is the moral to this story? Certainly do your homework and go into ANY contract with your eyes wide open. Publishing has always been hard but now it's just impossible - impossible to get picked up in the first place and impossible to be treated properly by desperate publishers getting nastier every minute in their fight to stay afloat. It's easy to claim the moral (and yes, sensible) high ground in this world but that doesn't make a more risk taking approach equally valid and worthy of discussion. If you reckon you have more books in you, don't be too quick to turn down the chance to get your name out there.

The other moral is just because you disagree with something doesn't make you right. When it comes to publishing, no-one knows.
 

lizmonster

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So, what is the moral to this story? Certainly do your homework and go into ANY contract with your eyes wide open. Publishing has always been hard but now it's just impossible - impossible to get picked up in the first place and impossible to be treated properly by desperate publishers getting nastier every minute in their fight to stay afloat. It's easy to claim the moral (and yes, sensible) high ground in this world but that doesn't make a more risk taking approach equally valid and worthy of discussion. If you reckon you have more books in you, don't be too quick to turn down the chance to get your name out there.

Due respect, but did that "terrible contract" involve your sister not actually getting paid?

There's a quantitative difference between (for example) a low percentage for your royalties, and a publisher that violates the contract you signed, terrible or otherwise.

Suggesting someone cast caution to the wind and enter into a legal relationship with an entity that has neglected their end of the deal multiple times seems not so much an "alternative perspective" as reckless and ill-considered advice.
 

Helix

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Perhaps being a lawyer myself gives me a slightly different take on this situation, but let's put that to one side...

My original comment was made purely in the spirit of an alternative perspective against the tide of advice saying no. And why should there be an alternative perspective? Because getting published in the mainstream is really hard and if someone offers you publication (meaning your masterpiece is going to be on the shelves in shops) it needs to be taken very seriously. Of course you need to protect yourself and you need to be aware of the risks, but how would you feel looking back on your "career" if that was the only shot you ever got and you turned it down? How do you know it would not have turned out OK...or even really well?

In fact my sister was confronted with a very similar dilemma in 2015. She had been trying to be published since the late 80s and at last she was offered publication by a small but mainstream publisher - after nearly 30 years of trying. She showed me the contract because she had concerns about it - and rightly so. It was a bit of a rip off, overwhelmingly favouring the publisher but I knew she was torn, despite her mild outrage at the contract. I said to her: "Do you have more books in you?" and she replied, that yes, she had lots more ideas. So I said: "If you have confidence in your ability to keep producing, you could just see this contract as an investment in your writing future. This will at least get you onto the shelves and develop your brand."

So she signed the terrible contract. The book has sold over 50,000 copies in Australia (which is a lot here) - she's been featured on major network TV - she's done heaps of appearances and readings - she's made some money (not near as much as she should have) - and now she's very well known in her sector of the market and has signed a much better contract for her next book. She is now in exactly the place she wanted to be as a writing professional.

So, what is the moral to this story? Certainly do your homework and go into ANY contract with your eyes wide open. Publishing has always been hard but now it's just impossible - impossible to get picked up in the first place and impossible to be treated properly by desperate publishers getting nastier every minute in their fight to stay afloat. It's easy to claim the moral (and yes, sensible) high ground in this world but that doesn't make a more risk taking approach equally valid and worthy of discussion. If you reckon you have more books in you, don't be too quick to turn down the chance to get your name out there.

The other moral is just because you disagree with something doesn't make you right. When it comes to publishing, no-one knows.

The moral of this story is that one outlier is not a trend.

Also that bolded bit -- nah, that's a bad deal, mate.
 

The Black Prince

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Sorry, but I disagree profoundly.

Not everyone has the luxury of dealing with publishers on an equal negotiating basis. You shouldn't have to just suck it up, but if you can't see any alternative and you do want to see your years of effort rewarded with at least seeing your books on the shelves - it's a calculated gamble.
 

lizmonster

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Sorry, but I disagree profoundly.

If you choose to do business with people who've proven themselves dishonest, that's your business. But suggesting to others that it's in any way a good idea isn't something I'm comfortable letting stand unchallenged.

Bad contracts are one thing (and they're bad enough). Companies that violate their own legally binding agreements are quite another.
 
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AW Admin

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Not everyone has the luxury of dealing with publishers on an equal negotiating basis. You shouldn't have to just suck it up, but if you can't see any alternative and you do want to see your years of effort rewarded with at least seeing your books on the shelves - it's a calculated gamble.

Why the hell not? Every one is equal; you can say yes, or you can say no.

If the book is good enough that one publsher wants it, another will as well.

If you just want to see your book on the shelf, self-publish it and market it yourself; that way, at least you control the rights.

Don't be all romantic about "just seeing your book on the shelf" and opine about it being a "calculated gamble." It's not a calculated gamble; it's a business deal.

It's not a game, either. Run the numbers. Does the publisher offer standard advances and royalties? Do they have a fair termination clause rights-reversal and end of rights termination and subsequent property language? Do they have real distribution of actual books to retail bookstores with standard returns? Check the language of the contract.

Can you find their books in your local bookstores and libraries? Are they part of Overdrive? No? Then self-publish or find a better publisher.
 
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