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Saoirse
04-13-2018, 04:25 AM
In my current WIP, there are four "suicides" (that actually turn out to be murder) and there are Tarot cards left at the scene.

In the beginning, before it's discovered that they are murders, how would the news (TV, papers) go about covering this? I'm assuming they wouldn't say a whole lot, if anything. The thing is, I need my MC to find out about the Tarot cards in some manner. She is psychic, but I have her finding out several key points via her abilities and do not want this to become a situation where her psychic abilities do the work for her.

Also, I read somewhere else that the suicides would be considered homicide unless proved to be suicide? For plot reasons, that can't happen b/c then there wouldn't be anything for my MC to discover. How could I wok this so they are considered suicides until she proves that they are murder?

cornflake
04-13-2018, 04:34 AM
In my current WIP, there are four "suicides" (that actually turn out to be murder) and there are Tarot cards left at the scene.

In the beginning, before it's discovered that they are murders, how would the news (TV, papers) go about covering this? I'm assuming they wouldn't say a whole lot, if anything. The thing is, I need my MC to find out about the Tarot cards in some manner. She is psychic, but I have her finding out several key points via her abilities and do not want this to become a situation where her psychic abilities do the work for her.

Also, I read somewhere else that the suicides would be considered homicide unless proved to be suicide? For plot reasons, that can't happen b/c then there wouldn't be anything for my MC to discover. How could I wok this so they are considered suicides until she proves that they are murder?

If the cops investigate and get it wrong and decide it's suicide, but otherwise...

Every unexplained death is investigated.

As to the cards, that's not really going to happen either. Cops don't release scene info because it's useful for several things, like sorting false confessions, being able to question suspects, etc.,, and there's no point in releasing random details that no one would consider notable.

Saoirse
04-13-2018, 04:46 AM
Thanks, cornflake! Any ideas on how to solve this problem?

cornflake
04-13-2018, 04:58 AM
I think I need more details to help -- what does she need to find out about the cards? Does she know the people? Are they notable people for some reason? Does she know a cop?

As to it being declared a suicide, it's not like cops don't make mistakes. Is it staged? Is it just inept cops? I dunno what's going on.

Larry M
04-13-2018, 05:08 AM
I don't know if you'll find this relevant or helpful...

A friend of ours died of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound (another friend told us our deceased friend's husband was out of town at the time, and she was believed to be home alone). The police released zero information to news media, and to this day (two years later), we have not found any news stories mentioning her death. No arrest was made, adding to the speculation that it was suicide. The only information we were able to find were online police reports that indicated police performed two welfare checks within a couple of hours, at her home address. The online police report indicates that an hour or so later, officers responded to two 'shots fired' phone calls at our friend's house.

We were told by another friend who is a police officer that this is how suicides are routinely handled - virtually no information released to news media.

Anna Spargo-Ryan
04-13-2018, 05:09 AM
If they're suspected to be suicides from the beginning (notes left behind, testimony from family, the nature of the death) and aren't famous, the media probably wouldn't cover them at all.

I suspect the most common way to turn a homicide into a "suicide" is to murder a person in some way that's not immediately obvious (like poison or suffocation), then stage a suicide scene and hope no one investigates further. Could your psychic have some connection with a family member who mentions the card? Or what if a loved one wrote something online (a Facebook post? a blog?) about trying to understand why the tarot card might mean, and the psychic found it?

frimble3
04-13-2018, 06:05 AM
Does she know any of the families? Or someone who might bring their suspicions to her? But, yeah, I can't see the police releasing information to all and sundry. Which is why in most cozies the investigator is dating a cop.
Also, there is a stigma around suicide, so if the police aren't investigating a crime, there would be very little mention of it in the media. Unless it was very public - 'hanged himself from the water tower' public.

frimble3
04-13-2018, 06:08 AM
RE: Tarot cards. If the police are investigating, or at least checking things out, they might ask a local shop that carries that sort of thing about the tarot cards - did they sell them, do they carry them, is there something significant about them? Maybe your character shops there as well, and the owner mentions the police interest?

autumnleaf
04-13-2018, 07:28 PM
Sadly, suicide is very common and therefore is unlikely to make the news unless the person is famous or the circumstances are unusual.

Suicide-prevention groups issue guidelines for responsible reporting of suicide: https://www.samaritans.org/media-centre/media-guidelines-reporting-suicide/advice-journalists-suicide-reporting-dos-and-donts However, these guidelines are voluntary and not always adhered to. Additionally, a lot of news these days is disseminated via social media, frequently with distortions along the way.

EMaree
04-13-2018, 07:44 PM
Covering suicides in the news is heavily discouraged by mental health and suicide prevention charities.

Viewing news about people who commit suicide, particular the sort of reporting that's encouraged in the modern day (photos of the victim smiling and happy, accounts from the distraught family, gory details about what happened, how and why) are massively dangerous to other people who may be considering suicide.

News coverage solidly correlates with copycat incidents across all violent acts, including suicide, and when a suicide gets wide media coverage (eg a famous musician dies, or a tabloid rag decides a tragic/gory story is worth the clicks) suicide attempts and successes usually spike upwards.

I know it seems sad that doesn't make the news, but as acknowledged by Autumnleaf's link to the Samaritans guidelines, it's good that it doesn't.

autumnleaf
04-13-2018, 08:13 PM
I know it seems sad that doesn't make the news, but as acknowledged by Autumnleaf's link to the Samaritans guidelines, it's good that it doesn't.

Just to clarify, I meant it was sad that suicide is so common, rather than that it's not covered by the news.

Saoirse
04-13-2018, 08:15 PM
Thank you EMaree, autumnleaf, frimble3, Anna Spargo-Ryan, Larry M, and cornflake for your feedback. Much appreciated. I believe I have a plan of attack now. The MC will be brought unofficially into the investigation — once the police realize that the four suicides are suspicious — b/c of her psychic abilities. That's how she'll learn about the Tarot cards.

As for the suicides themselves, I can't really think of a good way to handle that except that the police don't think they warrant investigating till later. Or they do, and bring in my MC right away. I am on a tight deadline (it's due May 1st) and I can't rewrite the entire thing. This way it's at least more realistic than it was. :D

cornflake
04-13-2018, 09:32 PM
It's your thing, and it's fiction, but just so you know, so you can make decisions -- while I've heard of it in fiction and occasionally on news reports about victim families doing something, I have never heard of cops actually using psychics. Even if they do, they can't just tell them things about investigations that the public is not meant to know, or let them near crime scenes or etc.

As to the 'they don't think they warrant investigating' that just really doesn't happen. Unexplained deaths are investigated.

Saoirse
04-13-2018, 09:40 PM
Cornflake, I totally understand. The story is fantasy, so I think I can take a few liberties with it. And the thing about not warranting investigation... You're right. I will have them investigate it right away. Thank you for your feedback. :)

ironmikezero
04-13-2018, 10:03 PM
In most jurisdictions the cause of death (CoD) in unattended deaths is determined by a designated medical examiner (forensic pathologist). That information will or will not support a further determination of the status of the death that may otherwise be deemed suspicious (e.g., suicide, homicide, accidental, natural, etc.). The M.E.'s findings carry a great deal of weight legally.

Some jurisdictions have a coroner, who may or may not be a duly licensed forensic pathologist (if not, one is typically contracted to perform autopsies). A coroner will render a similar determination (sometimes referred to as a verdict) based upon the post-mortem examination.

Law enforcement agencies typically rely upon such determinations to classify deaths; most would avoid making any sort of premature public statements. There are civil liability concerns and the possibility of compromising an ensuing investigation.

A tarot card found at each scene (nice touch, BTW) would be information withheld from general knowledge (referenced only in classified/restricted reports) for the duration of the investigation. Someone with inside knowledge would have to leak the info.

Saoirse
04-13-2018, 11:11 PM
ironmikezero, thanks for the info! Very helpful!

frimble3
04-14-2018, 12:08 AM
Don't know your victims, your setting, or the circumstance, but: wouldn't four suicides close together would make the police suspicious, just by being a clumping of statistics?

One might be a suicide, but at the very least, if there were four close together (aside from the whole, horrible 'copycat suicide' aspect) wouldn't the police want to find out what triggered it, and if there are other people at risk? I don't imagine that a 'suicide pact' is something that would be unconsidered.
Or, one of the victim's family is considering it, and hires the psychic?

DarienW
04-14-2018, 12:17 AM
Great topic! Some interesting info, and great suggestions. Just wanted to add that psychics do work with cops occasionally. There's a true-crime show called Psychic Detectives. From what I've observed watching the show, the psychic may call the cops after having a vision, and in the OP's case, she would probably ask about the tarot cards, giving the cops reason to question her. They may even suspect her being involved.

Best of luck with your story!

:)

Saoirse
04-14-2018, 12:24 AM
frimble3 - Great idea! I may use that. :D I agree about the suicides being suspicious.

DarienW - Thank you! Great suggestions!

cornflake
04-14-2018, 04:32 AM
Don't know your victims, your setting, or the circumstance, but: wouldn't four suicides close together would make the police suspicious, just by being a clumping of statistics?

One might be a suicide, but at the very least, if there were four close together (aside from the whole, horrible 'copycat suicide' aspect) wouldn't the police want to find out what triggered it, and if there are other people at risk? I don't imagine that a 'suicide pact' is something that would be unconsidered.
Or, one of the victim's family is considering it, and hires the psychic?

As the song says, suicide's contagious. There's also certainly the possibility of staging, which does go unnoticed by cops sometimes (sometimes you can't quite believe it did but it happens). Also demographics and everything else play into everything. A bunch of suicides amongst an at-risk population in an economically-depressed town probably wouldn't raise eyebrows.


Great topic! Some interesting info, and great suggestions. Just wanted to add that psychics do work with cops occasionally. There's a true-crime show called Psychic Detectives. From what I've observed watching the show, the psychic may call the cops after having a vision, and in the OP's case, she would probably ask about the tarot cards, giving the cops reason to question her. They may even suspect her being involved.

Best of luck with your story!

:)

Oh, psychics call cops all the time. I've not met a cop or le officer of any stripe who'd do anything but roll his or her eyes at it, same as at the other calls they get from nutters. If someone calls and drops info about a scene that hasn't been released, yeah, no one is thinking, 'wow, this person must really be psychic!' They're thinking the person is a suspect.

DarienW
04-14-2018, 04:40 AM
Oh, psychics call cops all the time. I've not met a cop or le officer of any stripe who'd do anything but roll his or her eyes at it, same as at the other calls they get from nutters. If someone calls and drops info about a scene that hasn't been released, yeah, no one is thinking, 'wow, this person must really be psychic!' They're thinking the person is a suspect.

They do reflect on the show how cops don't really respect psychics. A lot of the shows focus on dead end cases where the cops don't have anything to lose as well. By the end, the cops aren't always convinced, but a lot of bodies and murderers did get found. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the supernatural, LOL! I did mention they would initially see her as a suspect, but an iron clad alibi could fix that.

Anywho, for a fantasy story, I wouldn't question them giving the psychic a shot.

:)

WeaselFire
04-15-2018, 04:26 AM
In the beginning, before it's discovered that they are murders, how would the news (TV, papers) go about covering this? I'm assuming they wouldn't say a whole lot, if anything.

They will sensationalize everything. But they will have whatever facts the police spokesman releases, unless you get a journalist who investigates, and none will in today's fast-paced media.


Also, I read somewhere else that the suicides would be considered homicide unless proved to be suicide?

Suicides are ALWAYS homicides. It's just hard to prosecute the murderer when they're dead.


How could I wok this so they are considered suicides until she proves that they are murder?

Don't leave tarot cards then. That's a dead giveaway to a serial murder. The most inept cop on the planet wouldn't miss that one.

Jeff

Saoirse
04-15-2018, 08:34 PM
Thank you all. I havenít been online due to a migraine. I appreciate all the feedback!

Twick
04-17-2018, 12:44 AM
Don't leave tarot cards then. That's a dead giveaway to a serial murder. The most inept cop on the planet wouldn't miss that one.

Jeff

Well, the first card could just be happenstance. There's probably lots of ephemera left from the victim's life at home, or just blowing along the ground if it happens outside.

Second card? Hmm, strange coincidence, the investigator might think, if s/he's the same one who attended the previous death.

Third card - hey, wait a minute, what's going on here...

Fourth card - even if no one's officially connected the cases in the media, I could see an investigator going to someone known to the police as a psychic (even if they don't believe it officially) to ask about what these cards mean, and if they seem to be leaving a message.

Saoirse
04-18-2018, 02:59 AM
Twick - This is GREAT, thank you!

Lawless
05-02-2018, 08:14 PM
Um, how many people actually know that the police have the rule to treat every suicide as a crime until proven suicide? I didn't and I am a lawyer by profession (albeit not in the USA, and police procedures may differ significantly from country to country).

I mean, how about you just ignore this knowledge and let the police assume suicide right from the beginning? Considering how many legal and procedural implausibilities can be found in an average crime novel, a trifle like this is totally nothing to worry about.

Saoirse
05-02-2018, 08:16 PM
Lawless - That's a valid point. I doubt there are people who aren't in law enforcement who don't know that.

Hunt & Peck
05-05-2018, 05:30 AM
I read somewhere else that the suicides would be considered homicide unless proved to be suicides?

I used to be a deputy sheriff in Florida and rose to the position/rank of investigator assigned to the Street Gang Unit.

Now that you have my credentials, I'll say this...

I've been on three calls (that I can recall off the top of my head) in which we did NOT treat dead people as homicides, but rather treated them as suicides right from the start. I know that is how it was done right from the start because I was the responding deputy on each call.

The first one was a guy hanging from a giant oak tree in his front yard in broad daylight. His neck was obviously snapped and his tongue was protruding from his mouth. Under his feat was a trash can laying on its side. We did not assume it was anything other than a suicide and treated it as a suicide. Just as an extra bit of advice, we do save the knots on the rope (or other object) people tie when they hang themselves. That's about the only thing different when it comes to a hanging...you preserve the knot they used.

The second suicide was a welfare check on a guy who hadn't been heard from in a while. Door was unlocked...went inside...nobody there and nothing suspicious...checked garage and saw the window of the SUV was down...rut row. Reached inside the driver window and felt around the ignition where I found the key had been inserted and in the "on" position. Knew right then I'd find the body at the tailpipe. Sure enough...dude was dead near the tail pipe. Treated it as a suicide right from the start.

The other one I can recall was a welfare check on a guy who hadn't been seen in a while by his neighbors and the newspapers were starting to stack up. Door was unlocked...went in...saw a bunch of alcohol (mostly empty)...began searching the place and found the dude dead on his bedroom floor. Wasn't necessarily a suicide...but certainly didn't appear to be a homicide, and you have to really make yourself drink so much that you die from it, ya know? Like...know when to say when for crying out loud.

Natural deaths were a little bit different in that we'd snoop around for prescription bottles or medical bills so we can get the name of the person's doctor. We'd then call up the doc and they'd be like "oh yeah...no surprise they're dead...they had XYZ wrong with them." Then we'd just call the body bag team.

Sorry if I'm talking in an overly relaxed way about this stuff...you get numb to it. If you start taking every dead body to heart, you ain't gonna last long in that job and will likely become an alcoholic, pain pill addict, or shoot yourself...all of which I saw happen to the guys I worked with (many alcoholics...2 addicts...1 suicide).

Saoirse
05-05-2018, 09:24 PM
Hunt & Peck, I appreciate your feedback. That was kind of how I was thinking. If it appears to be suicide, why continue to investigate? There are other circumstances surrounding the deaths, though, which I believe could lead to an investigation.

And so sorry about your colleagues. That is really sad. :(

cornflake
05-06-2018, 02:23 AM
Hunt & Peck, I appreciate your feedback. That was kind of how I was thinking. If it appears to be suicide, why continue to investigate? There are other circumstances surrounding the deaths, though, which I believe could lead to an investigation.

And so sorry about your colleagues. That is really sad. :(

That's not standard procedure in any department I'm familiar with. I'm not at all questioning the poster's own experiences, but a cop who went to a scene of, say, the described hanging and didn't investigate it as a potential homicide would be in an epic shitload of trouble where I'm from.

People commit homicides and stage them to look like suicides. It's not at all uncommon, especially in domestic situations. Also, even actual suicides may not be what they appear -- they may be murder/suicides, suicide pacts that went awry, suicides driven by other actors, etc. This is why every unexplained death is investigated. Most often if a suicide is not a suicide it's a staged homicide. Killing someone, say even by asphyxiation, and then hanging them from a tree and putting a knocked over whatever underneath them isn't particularly hard if the person doesn't weigh a ton and the killer is strong enough to move the body. Part of that investigative power is going to come from the ME/coroner, but part is also basic police work.

paqart
05-06-2018, 02:57 AM
Speaking of suicides, the paranormal, and copycats, here is a little tidbit from my own experience: Back in 1988 or so, I had a premonition that the girlfriend of a person I had just met would commit suicide. At the time I had the premonition, I hadn't met her yet, and I didn't believe in premonitions. After I did meet her, I told my wife of the premonition. Later, she did commit suicide by jumping out of a window. It did get into the papers. It was a full-page story in the Post, on page 2. It was framed as "Successful Cornell medical student takes her own life" or something like that. Within a week, another person committed suicide by jumping from a building, also a student. I think there was another after that. Those also made it into the papers and were described as copycat suicides. My friend's girlfriend's story focused on what a good student she was, her family background (mom and dad were medical doctors), and the details of her death. Some of the details from the article were: her suicide note, wind shoved her body into the tower of the building she jumped from more than once, causing her legs to be broken before she died, and she landed on a concrete awning above street level, causing some difficulty removing the body.

Now, speaking as someone who has written some articles on parapsychology for scientific journals, I have serious quibbles with the way psi is represented in fiction. It almost never betrays any knowledge of what psi actually looks like, at least based on the literature. In your case, though your description is simple, already has two serious warning flags for me. First, the inclusion of tarot cards. Tarot cards are, at best, considered to be a focusing agent for true psi ability to manifest. However, they are more often associated with fake psychics. As far as their use by true psychics, I am unaware of any studies that persuasively argue this. There are studies that try to ascertain whether tarot cards are effective, but these tend to be inconclusive or strongly negative in their conclusions. The second flag is related to the first. People who can demonstrate what appear to be genuine psi phenomena tend to have certain commonalities in their experience of psi-derived information. Seeing tarot cards, particularly if your psychic is seeing specific tarot cards, would be highly unusual among these people.

The reason is that written information such as letters and numbers are extremely difficult for psychics to receive and understand correctly. Somehow, they way they receive information conflicts with that type of information. Tarot cards have images, which is better than words or numbers, but the way images are perceived would make it very difficult for a psychic to perceive the difference between, for instance, a real skeleton, a child's drawing of a skeleton, the "death" card in a tarot deck, and the abstract concept of death. You can probably get away with this because most readers aren't very sophisticated when it comes to knowledge of paranormal subjects, but many writers aren't either, and that perpetuates a poor understanding of the subject.

A more likely scenario would be that a psychic is contacted by the ghost of the deceased, who directly tells her that it wasn't suicide, but murder. Depending on the psychic's ability, the details may be conveyed in either a garbled fashion or fairly clearly. If tarot cards were found at the scene, it is possible the ghost would show that, provided the cards helped identify a perpetrator, but the designs on the cards likely wouldn't be communicated. Rather, the idea of "tarot cards" would come across generically. Therefore, the individual cards would have no meaning, though collectively they might point to someone with an interest in the occult. It would be extremely unusual if the cards themselves accurately pointed in any specific direction or represented an accurate prediction of anything. In this context, the tarot cards may as well be playing cards, a hotel receipt, or any other physical artifact of a crime scene. Their meaning would derive from their relationship to the person who left them there, not the cards themselves.


Covering suicides in the news is heavily discouraged by mental health and suicide prevention charities.

Viewing news about people who commit suicide, particular the sort of reporting that's encouraged in the modern day (photos of the victim smiling and happy, accounts from the distraught family, gory details about what happened, how and why) are massively dangerous to other people who may be considering suicide.

News coverage solidly correlates with copycat incidents across all violent acts, including suicide, and when a suicide gets wide media coverage (eg a famous musician dies, or a tabloid rag decides a tragic/gory story is worth the clicks) suicide attempts and successes usually spike upwards.

I know it seems sad that doesn't make the news, but as acknowledged by Autumnleaf's link to the Samaritans guidelines, it's good that it doesn't.

Hunt & Peck
05-06-2018, 05:24 AM
That's not standard procedure in any department I'm familiar with. I'm not at all questioning the poster's own experiences, but a cop who went to a scene of, say, the described hanging and didn't investigate it as a potential homicide would be in an epic shitload of trouble where I'm from.

I'm curious what department(s) you're familiar with. Guess I'd be in "an epic shitload of trouble" where you're from. :flag:

I'd venture to say 99% of the general public get their law enforcement-related knowledge from television and movies, which is precisely where they should not get their law enforcement knowledge. 555

cornflake
05-06-2018, 05:35 AM
New York, mostly, though a friend of mine just finished a project with the fibs examining staging nationally...

Hunt & Peck
05-06-2018, 08:33 AM
New York, mostly, though a friend of mine just finished a project with the fibs examining staging nationally...

Haven't a clue what a project with the fibs examining staging means. You lost me, although that's not hard to do.

Anyhow, I think you're misunderstanding me...no surprise when communicating in only the written word.

The instances I described are investigated, but not as a homicide when things don't point that way. So, a medical examiner still does his/her thing, family members are still talked with, etc. But...now you'll want to sit down for this because it's a little shocking...not every dead body has been staged by someone to make it appear as a suicide. WHAT?! FER REALS?! I know, I know, the television would have you believe otherwise. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a duck. It's not a bear that someone dressed up to make look like a duck. ;)

Dude swinging in his front yard by the neck in broad daylight is found by family members (who were in the house, then found him and called 911...and were obviously quite distraught) doesn't mean he was staged there and it should be investigated as a homicide. No bullet holes or stab wounds and the guy was a good 250 pounds. So did someone tell the guy not to make a noise or scream for help while he tied a rope around his neck, had him stand on a trash can, then kick the trash can over? Heck no man...the dude prepared the rope, stood on that can himself, put the noose around his neck, then kicked the trash can over all by his lonesome. Why the heck would I call out a homicide detective for that? The answer is, I wouldn't...and I'd be shocked if any other LEO would either.

cornflake
05-06-2018, 09:47 AM
Haven't a clue what a project with the fibs examining staging means. You lost me, although that's not hard to do.

Anyhow, I think you're misunderstanding me...no surprise when communicating in only the written word.

The instances I described are investigated, but not as a homicide when things don't point that way. So, a medical examiner still does his/her thing, family members are still talked with, etc. But...now you'll want to sit down for this because it's a little shocking...not every dead body has been staged by someone to make it appear as a suicide. WHAT?! FER REALS?! I know, I know, the television would have you believe otherwise. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a duck. It's not a bear that someone dressed up to make look like a duck. ;)

Dude swinging in his front yard by the neck in broad daylight is found by family members (who were in the house, then found him and called 911...and were obviously quite distraught) doesn't mean he was staged there and it should be investigated as a homicide. No bullet holes or stab wounds and the guy was a good 250 pounds. So did someone tell the guy not to make a noise or scream for help while he tied a rope around his neck, had him stand on a trash can, then kick the trash can over? Heck no man...the dude prepared the rope, stood on that can himself, put the noose around his neck, then kicked the trash can over all by his lonesome. Why the heck would I call out a homicide detective for that? The answer is, I wouldn't...and I'd be shocked if any other LEO would either.

I have no idea why you think I'm talking about television, or that I said every body has been staged to look like a suicide (I said nothing of the sort) nor why you're talking as if anyone in the thread has suggested every body be investigated as a homicide.

None of those things were said.

However, distraught family members don't mean it wasn't a homicide, and also, staging a suicide doesn't have to involve killing the person using the same method as the staging. Hence I specified a different method in the post discussing the case you mentioned.

Where I come from, again, every unexplained death is investigated.

Hunt & Peck
05-06-2018, 07:29 PM
O...M...G...ok...ok...you win...I fold...I'll no longer argue police matters with non-police. :flag: :roll:

cornflake
05-06-2018, 08:17 PM
O...M...G...ok...ok...you win...I fold...I'll no longer argue police matters with non-police. :flag: :roll:

Here's a hint: don't assume you know anyone's profession or job history. You have no idea who's in the thread.

Cyia
05-06-2018, 08:59 PM
Here's a hint: don't assume you know anyone's profession or job history. You have no idea who's in the thread.

^ I swear this needs saying so often around here that it should be a banner.

Saoirse
05-06-2018, 10:21 PM
Thanks, everyone for your input and feedback. I think I have a handle on it now. :)

Hunt & Peck
05-07-2018, 12:17 AM
Here's a hint: don't assume you know anyone's profession or job history. You have no idea who's in the thread.

I assumed nothing. I replied to the OP and gave my personal experience...not the experience of a friend of mine or some other third party. Maybe you shouldn't assume that I assumed. :Shrug:

be frank
05-07-2018, 05:54 AM
I assumed nothing.

Um...


I'll no longer argue police matters with non-police.

Dunno. That bolded part sure seems like an assumption to me. :Shrug:

Hunt & Peck
05-07-2018, 08:55 AM
Um...

Dunno. That bolded part sure seems like an assumption to me. :Shrug:

Then perhaps you should read his post prior to the one I made in which he refers to his friend as the one with law enforcement experience. That is why I posted the comment you decided to quote...and bold.

I'm not here to hide anything or speak about something I know nothing about. First thing I did when I initially posted in this thread was let the OP know I was prior law enforcement and an investigator so she would know the information provided isn't second or thirdhand.

Cornflake wrote, and I quote, "...a cop who went to a scene of, say, the described hanging and didn't investigate it as a potential homicide...". That's just non-sense, to be frank (no pun intended). Then he went a little further and basically said I'd be in an "epic shitload of trouble" if I had not investigated that as a potential homicide where he was from. And that's just straight laughable.

But, ok guys, I get it...I'm the one with the low post-count here and you all with the high post-counts seem to want to circle the wagons. I'll now bow out of this thread and let you all post away so you can get your last words (shots) in on the newbie. Enjoy. :hooray:

cornflake
05-07-2018, 09:33 AM
Then perhaps you should read his post prior to the one I made in which he refers to his friend as the one with law enforcement experience. That's not what I said either, which is like the fourth thing you've said I or someone else in the thread has said that hasn't been said. That is why I posted the comment you decided to quote...and bold.

I'm not here to hide anything or speak about something I know nothing about. First thing I did when I initially posted in this thread was let the OP know I was prior law enforcement and an investigator so she would know the information provided isn't second or thirdhand.

Cornflake wrote, and I quote, "...a cop who went to a scene of, say, the described hanging and didn't investigate it as a potential homicide...". That's just non-sense, to be frank (no pun intended). Then he went a little further and basically said I'd be in an "epic shitload of trouble" if I had not investigated that as a potential homicide where he was from. And that's just straight laughable. Ok, except I didn't say you, I said a cop, and it's true. Assuming a suicide because it looks like a suicide is not ok in any department I'm familiar with, again. Any unexplained death is investigated -- as several people in the thread have mentioned.

But, ok guys, I get it...I'm the one with the low post-count here and you all with the high post-counts seem to want to circle the wagons. I'll now bow out of this thread and let you all post away so you can get your last words (shots) in on the newbie. Enjoy. :hooray:

This has nothing to do with being a newbie or not, It has to do with saying people said things they didn't, then saying you didn't say things you did.

ironmikezero
05-07-2018, 08:41 PM
cornflake, I tried to send you a PM. Your box is full; clear your cache.

aheuett
05-24-2018, 10:11 AM
Probably too late, but here's a few notes:

In Washington State, the head prosecuting attorney is the coroner in his or her county. This person designates deputy coroners who can declare a person deceased on the scene; this is often a police officer who attends a brief training. The lead officer on the death investigation (as any death not in a medical facility or hospice is investigated) notifies the prosecutor's office, usually by phone call, to give the pertinent information. The prosecutor/coroner makes the determination if there will be a hold on the body. The hold is generally for a medical examination, which is conducted by a medical examiner. This is the person that does the hands on examination. Surprisingly, the equipment they use is mostly from hardware stores. The officer calls the deceased person's physician and sees if the death is expected, and if so, if the doctor will sign the death certificate. If they will not, the information is provided during the phone call with the prosecutor.

Another way the tarot cards or other such things can be discovered: if there is a reason for the MC to privately investigate, she could make a public records request that would include any information that is not specifically redacted. Officers take photos at death investigation scenes and photos of the body might be redacted, but photos of the environment would not be.