I'm a First Time Beta Reader

Comanche · Jul 7, 2017

I'm happy to be reading someone else's work with the hope I can add something of worth.

But - I can add very little. I feel as though I should be providing some sort of witty, semi-academic critique, but I cannot. I've found the draft to be compelling and well done. Oh, I have some small suggestions, and I was asked not to do any editing (which I can't do anyway), but for the most part I am thoroughly enjoying the experience.

I'm curious to know if others have had that same feeling while doing their first beta - the feeling that they should be doing more.

Harlequin · Jul 7, 2017

On my first, no, but on MS where the writer was at a higher level than me, yeah I had very little to say.

Don't sweat it, sometimes "I enjoyed it" is great feedback too. I suspect your writer is probably relieved to have a break from walls of red

Jamills08 · Jul 7, 2017

I've done a couple and everyone I've Beta'd for has been published, where I am not. I point out what I can but mostly what I point out is just my preference or another way to say something.

davidjgalloway · Jul 7, 2017

I've found the draft to be compelling and well done.

I think you've been quite lucky

.

Fruitbat · Jul 7, 2017

I think you should definitely make those small suggestions, then. Don't worry, it's up to the writer to use them or not but your opinion, as a reader, is what they've requested. That is what they asked for and that is why you are reading it. I'm really disappointed when a beta reader sends the manuscript back with just a comment like "It was good." I find it useless and figure they probably didn't even read it. It's irritating to waste a week or a month waiting to only receive one vague, nothing comment. Your input is as valuable as any other reader's input!

A bit off-topic perhaps but I also cringe when I hear instructions by a writer on what they can and can't be told by their betas. I think they are likely putting off people who might have done them the huge favor of putting in hours to days on their book for them. I don't want to put that effort in for someone who wants to get in my way of helping them by telling me not to tell them certain things I notice or to only tell them certain things I notice.

I am helping because I enjoy helping a book become polished and ready for publication, so if they feel the need to limit that, I'd rather help someone else. Obviously, it's up to them to decide which suggestions they want to use or not, but why on earth would they limit what you can comment on, when you're right there reading it anyway? If they already knew all about what their book needed and didn't, they wouldn't need help with it in the first place.

Thems my two coppers.

Harlequin · Jul 7, 2017

Thought I'd add in as well--I recently had a beta who makes very few comments, perhaps one or two a page, max (usually less). However, I still found her as helpful as lbl betas, just in a different way, because if she commented on something that meant it was very problematic for her.

Myrealana · Jul 7, 2017

Positive comments are great, too. Feel free to tell the author what worked for you. The key to useful feedback is to be specific. Don't just say "It's great." Tell the author WHY it's great, and what really engaged you.

BarbaraSheridan · Jul 7, 2017

Some beta reads just flow for you as a reader/target audience and I think that's valuable to know. Especially when something strikes you as really emotional or suspenseful or funny. (we like to know that what we tried to convey does resonate with a reader. )

And when anything does pull you out of the story/pings your internal editor enough to point it out, I find that very valuable as a writer.

hester · Jul 8, 2017

What everyone else said

. I've been lucky enough to beta for some very talented writers on this forum (you know who you are

) and sometimes I'll have a lot of suggestions, sometimes very few. IMO, every bit of feedback is valuable, so long as there's enough specificity to let the writer know you've done a careful read-through.

Sage · Jul 8, 2017

Positive comments are just as important as criticism. If multiple readers have something positive to say about a scene, for example, but don't say it, and one person has a problem with the scene and is the only one to speak up, the author will get a skewed sense of how that scene plays out to readers. Also, sometimes it really highlights the biggest problems when someone has few criticisms, because those notes they make were important in a story they found really strong. I sometimes worry that, because I note a lot of things in my beta reads, the big important things are getting bogged down in the less important (but maybe easier to fix) notes.

AW Admin · Jul 8, 2017

I just want to point out that in a literary/writerly context criticism doesn't mean "negative."

See definition 3:

3.
a. The practice of analyzing, classifying, interpreting, or evaluating literary or other artistic works.
b. A critical article or essay; a critique.
c. The investigation of the origin and history of literary documents; textual criticism.

CJSimone · Jul 8, 2017

Comanche said:
I'm happy to be reading someone else's work with the hope I can add something of worth.

But - I can add very little. I feel as though I should be providing some sort of witty, semi-academic critique, but I cannot. I've found the draft to be compelling and well done. Oh, I have some small suggestions, and I was asked not to do any editing (which I can't do anyway), but for the most part I am thoroughly enjoying the experience.

I'm curious to know if others have had that same feeling while doing their first beta - the feeling that they should be doing more.

Hi Comanche.

Yep, I've felt like I should be able to offer more than I have at times (in beta reads, as well as in SYW here and in a writing critique group). Sometimes I have a lot of suggestions, sometimes not many. It doesn't always relate to how good I think the story is either; some stories I just have more to offer for whatever reason (or I think I do anyway).

Even if it's not a lot, the things you do say can be important. I didn't feel like I offered much to an AW member I recently beta read for, but he was extremely appreciative of a suggested change regarding the ending, and because he considered that a big thing, he considered me the "right" beta for the work at this time. You never know if even what "little" you have to offer is exactly what's needed.

CJ

CJSimone · Jul 8, 2017

hester said:
What everyone else said .

There've been a lot of really good points in this thread.

Unimportant · Jul 8, 2017

It really varies. Sometimes I can only say "awesome, compelling, but I found two typos". Other times I rip it apart from one end to another with regards to characterisation, plot, pacing, and setting. All you can do is tell the author what you liked, what you didn't like, what was factually or English-l-y (?) incorrect, and leave it at that.

And, as most authors say, any feedback is good!

Susannah Shepherd · Jul 9, 2017

Fruitbat said:
A bit off-topic perhaps but I also cringe when I hear instructions by a writer on what they can and can't be told by their betas. I think they are likely putting off people who might have done them the huge favor of putting in hours to days on their book for them. I don't want to put that effort in for someone who wants to get in my way of helping them by telling me not to tell them certain things I notice or to only tell them certain things I notice.

Any suggestions on how to encourage feedback on the bigger picture of your book (pacing, building and resolution of conflict etc.) without asking people not to do something? It might be because all my latest works to be beta'd have been short stories, but I've found that while I do get very valuable feedback on style through line-by-line edits, and a bit on characterisation, I don't often get feedback on the bigger picture. That might be because I've nailed the overall pace and structure, but I doubt it, especially for my longer works.

mccardey · Jul 9, 2017

Susannah Shepherd said:
Any suggestions on how to encourage feedback on the bigger picture of your book (pacing, building and resolution of conflict etc.) without asking people not to do something? It might be because all my latest works to be beta'd have been short stories, but I've found that while I do get very valuable feedback on style through line-by-line edits, and a bit on characterisation, I don't often get feedback on the bigger picture. That might be because I've nailed the overall pace and structure, but I doubt it, especially for my longer works.

Just specify clearly that you'd like that as well. Telling people what you don't want will probably lose you valuable critters, because people crit for their own benefit as well as for the writer's. But saying 'I'd particularly like to know x' will probably get you some feedback about x.

Good luck with it.

Fruitbat · Jul 9, 2017

mccardey said:
Just specify clearly that you'd like that as well. Telling people what you don't want will probably lose you valuable critters, because people crit for their own benefit as well as for the writer's. But saying 'I'd particularly like to know x' will probably get you some feedback about x.

Good luck with it.

I agree. Something like "All feedback is most welcome but I'm especially looking for..." would not put me off at all. It's when they tell you what they can't be told or what they only want to hear that annoys me.

Also, for me anyway, it's a lot easier to note the small stuff than tackle the larger story problems. Maybe that's why you get more comments on the little things.

pschmehl · Jul 9, 2017

I just beta read for someone who I think will be published. My comments were along the lines of believability and the controversy he should be prepared for, if published. I also pointed out that I wanted more resolution at the end of the story. Some things were left dangling. It's possible he did that on purpose to write a second book. I did make some minor edits, but that was because he asked for them.

I don't see anything wrong with saying the writing is good, or I loved the story. Every writer wants to hear that. Plus it's confirmation that you're on the right track.

Another thing to remember is that you don't know how many, if any, other beta readers there may be. Your input is unique and helpful, even if it's only loved it and no criticism.

Sammie · Jul 9, 2017

For my first time beta reading for someone I had the exact feeling. God, I felt useless because I felt I had to contribute so much and I felt compelled to help as much as I possibly could. Thing is, when you're doing this job for someone its hard not to feel overwhelmed by it, because your feedback is important to the writer, and if you feel you aren't contributing enough you feel as if you have failed this writer in some way. As others have stated so wonderfully maybe that tiny thing could go a long way for the writer. You never really know! Just do the best that you can.

Note: Seriously guys though, wish I started a thread like this during my first beta reading I really could have used this awesome advice. Will keep these in mind for future times.

Comanche · Jul 10, 2017

Sammie said:
Note: Seriously guys though, wish I started a thread like this during my first beta reading I really could have used this awesome advice. Will keep these in mind for future times.

And indeed, this thread contains some great advice - and I want to thank all of you who chimed in with ideas and thoughts. I thought this reply in particular provoked a lot of good feedback:

Fruitbat said:
A bit off-topic perhaps but I also cringe when I hear instructions by a writer on what they can and can't be told by their betas. I think they are likely putting off people who might have done them the huge favor of putting in hours to days on their book for them. I don't want to put that effort in for someone who wants to get in my way of helping them by telling me not to tell them certain things I notice or to only tell them certain things I notice.

In my case, I have written up some "instructions" for my beta readers. I'd like to think these instructions help rather than hinder a beta reader.

-----------------------------

For Beta Readers

Most of what I am looking for is whether or not this is a readable book - or, put differently, if you started to read this book, would you keep reading it or would you politely put it down?

I don’t need line-by-line editing at this point. If you were to do so, you might be editing something that won’t make the final version. Please read it as if it were just another bit of leisure reading you have selected. Don’t try to analyze it. If it's boring, put it down and tell me it's boring. If it engages you, let me know.

If you must categorize this book, I suppose it would be either an “autobiographical novel” or a “fictional memoir.” Of course, neither category actually exists, but I want this book to read like a memoir. Yes, it is based on my life, and many of the characters in it are based on real people - but it is still fiction. The main part of the storyline is set twenty years in the future, so it must be fiction. If you recognize someone you know as one of the characters, and you read something that is not quite like that person - just remember that the story is fiction.

Here is a partial list of what I would like you to look for as you read - though feel free to find other things should you see something that could be improved.

* There is a lot of time switching in this book. Is it confusing? Can you keep up with the period of time a chapter or section is written for?

* When you get through reading the manuscript - or even a section of it, - what do YOU think I am trying to convey? Write some notes and give them to me. If you didn’t understand what I wanted you to understand, the book doesn’t accomplish my purpose.

*I know I have a tendency to just tell readers what is happening, rather than showing. My goal as a writer is to “show, not tell.” I welcome suggestions when you see me telling when I should be showing.
You will read sections that you think should be expanded. Let me know by simply saying “Work this” or some such similar phrase. Likewise, you may read sections that are not really needed. Tell me that too.

* I have a personal disdain for the use of profanity just for the sake of profanity. Nonetheless, sometimes it can be part of the story. Help me decide if I should keep the actual profanity as it is written now, or should I modify the text in some way?

* If you think the order of the chapters should be changed (such as Chapter 17 may be way too early in the book), let me know. There are many chapters that are candidates for moving.
Because I am flipping back and forth in time, you may see some cases where I use the wrong tense. I have tried to keep all chapters that are set in the nursing home in the present tense. Keep me honest with tense.

* There two chapters titled “Timeline.” Is the first one necessary? (I know it is incomplete.) If you have any comment on the second “Timeline” chapter, let me know that too.

* Chapter titles are iffy at this point - I am open to ideas. I may do nothing more than just use numbers.

*Finally - I need a title for this thing! “The Old Man” seems rather weak. Any suggestions?

-----------------------------------------------

There you have it - any thoughts on my "instructions?"

davidjgalloway · Jul 10, 2017

I don’t need line-by-line editing at this point. If you were to do so, you might be editing something that won’t make the final version. Please read it as if it were just another bit of leisure reading you have selected. Don’t try to analyze it.

* There is a lot of time switching in this book. Is it confusing? Can you keep up with the period of time a chapter or section is written for?

* When you get through reading the manuscript - or even a section of it, - what do YOU think I am trying to convey? Write some notes and give them to me. If you didn’t understand what I wanted you to understand, the book doesn’t accomplish my purpose.

In the first line, you don't know this. And, frankly, editing by your beta might show you programmatic issues with how you write, so that isn't wasted. I agree that having a beta reword line after line would probably be a waste, but I haven't encountered yet a beta who would do that intensive a job on a ms. But since most of us have habitual misspellings and misuses of grammar/punctuation, seeing those marked would be a help and I wouldn't want a beta to ignore that.

On the second, and with questions of that type, I'd save them for after the read. There's little point asking someone if X is a problem beforehand, because you taint the sample--they are then already thinking that you see X as a problem. Better to ask them afterwards--if they then say, "I didn't think twice about it," then you maybe wrong about X. This also allows you to simplify the beta request. I have a hard time justifying "fixing" a problem if not a single beta mentions it.

As for the third, that's an assignment, pure and simple. I don't see a lot of people getting enthused about something phrased as if it were taken directly from a class. So I'd reword or remove. I think much of what you say there is inherent in any beta-read. Also, you say "don't analyze it," but this seems to be pretty clearly asking for a type of analysis.

be frank · Jul 10, 2017

Comanche said:
* When you get through reading the manuscript - or even a section of it, - what do YOU think I am trying to convey? Write some notes and give them to me. If you didn’t understand what I wanted you to understand, the book doesn’t accomplish my purpose.

I'd be out at this point, fwiw.

eta: A beta reader's doing you a huge favour by committing their time to read through your MS. Don't give them homework.

Lauram6123 · Jul 10, 2017

be frank said:
I'd be out at this point, fwiw.

eta: A beta reader's doing you a huge favour by committing their time to read through your MS. Don't give them homework.

+1. When I approach a beta, I basically say thank you for agreeing to do this. And then I'll eagerly take any notes they have to give.

I've beta read often, and I find that sometimes it's difficult to give big picture notes on an MS when there writing construction issues, clunky prose or basic problems like too much telling, etc. I'm not saying yours has these issues, btw, I'm just saying that sometimes it's necessary to start a crit by addressing the micro issues before moving on to the bigger stuff like author intent, theme, chapter placement, etc.

Fruitbat · Jul 10, 2017

be frank said:
I'd be out at this point, fwiw.

Me, too.

Susannah Shepherd · Jul 10, 2017

be frank said:
I'd be out at this point, fwiw.

Add another +1 to the +1s. The tone of the instructions comes across as incredibly high maintenance rather than helpful. Asking for specific areas of focus would make me more inclined to assist. I wouldn't sign up to this gig unless I was getting paid.

I'm a First Time Beta Reader

Huh??

Eat books, not brains!

Opus is my guy.

.

Eat books, not brains!

I aim to misbehave

*insert catchy phrase here*

New year, new avatar.

Supreme Guessinator

No COVID yet. Still masking.

.

Huh??

Opus is my guy.

not a bloke, not named frank

.

insert catchy phrase here