bronze versus steel in creating a fantasy airplane

Hi all. I'm writing a dieselpunk novel with a civil war that draws on WWI/WWII technology. For the most part, I try to stick to realistic depictions of the technology by basing my descriptions on historical stuff, but in a few instances I do have some weird gizmos. One of my leaps of imagination is for the bad guys to create "iron eagle" bombers that are devastating because they have more range, are faster, and can achieve higher altitudes. Part of my explanation for this is that they've developed fuel that uses tetraethyl lead as an octane enhancing additive. I'm pleased with myself there--took a good deal of reading for me to come up with that, in order to base this advance on a real technological innovation.

Now I want the rebels, after stealing this technology, to create faster, more maneuverable fighter planes they're going to call Hummingbirds. In my imagination, the Hummingbirds are bronze. Kind of a wink at Bronze versus Iron Age--like going more retro is somehow resisting the darkness of modern technology (in a way--it's not something I'm going to belabor, it's just for flavor). So I've been reading about bronze versus iron weapons, and it's not helping me. I wondered if you guys could assist.

I just want the Hummingbirds to look bronze. They don't actually have to be bronze. But is there a way I can justify the use of bronze or a bronze-like metal in creating these fighter planes? They are supposed to be small and extra maneuverable, and really, they are going to be fantasy planes. They may have wings that move like a hummingbird's, and/or a tail that fans out and allows them to hover, stuff like that. Really any input here is welcome. The goal is to contrast them to the Iron Eagles, which are big, heavy, and dark, and look like actual eagles. I want to create a scene where the Hummingbirds are swarming around the Eagles, worrying them and ultimately bringing them down. I want to be able to describe the Eagles as dark and the Hummingbirds as bronze and light.

Currently the scientist/engineer developing a prototype for the Hummingbirds is going to be running into obstacles. It makes sense for me to have him have some sort of breakthrough where he realizes he needs to use copper, or bronze, or what have you, to build these planes. If it's absolutely illogical maybe I'll just resort having them painted bronze.

Any thoughts about using bronze or something like it?
Any other thoughts about making my planes hummingbird-like?

I really could use any ideas. Thanks!

ironmikezero said:

I think waylander is on to something - don't overlook lightweight wood for structure. Your techs could always thin-skin any wooden support structure with thin & light metallic sheeting like tin (which would have to be readily available if bronze is under consideration). Remember basic physics; keep your single-engine Hummingbird aircraft as light as possible, give it as much power as possible (speed & maneuverability), and arm it to its teeth.

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Would wood hold up to high speeds and sharp maneuverability?

blacbird said:

Exactly why there's a crack in the Liberty Bell. Bronze makes good large bells, because of the sound quality it produces, but I saw a documentary on the casting of large bells, and the biggest problem is that many crack during the process. And bronze is really really heavy, due to the copper itself. There's a reason aluminum is the metal of choice for airplane fuselages.

In terms of making the plane look coppery, simple painting or electroplating would work. I'm not sure I understand why you need them to be that color, though.

caw

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It's just because that's how I imagined it, and for contrast with the iron bombers. It's a concept I have. It came to me when I was watching actual hummingbirds in our garden last year. There was one that was bronze, and it made me think how cool it would be to have retrofuturistic fantasy fighter planes based on it in the novel (which I was already working on at the time).

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Twick said:

How about bronze fittings, or even brass? These wouldn't be subject to the same stresses as structural members.

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I haven't done any reading about brass. Is it more flexible than bronze? Lighter weight?

Off to google.

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WeaselFire said:

Copper. It's soldered. Though you could just paint a wooden plane bronze color. Bronze itself needs too much to be sturdy, increasing weight to where it won't fly. Unless you built an airship.

Jeff

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Copper is heavy, though, right?
Is there a reason why using an alloy of copper and aluminum would be preferable to steel or wood?

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writeonleanne said:

So from a quick research, it looks like copper is already used for plane making:

- Copper is a strong and malleable metal, but too soft on its own and would need to be alloyed with another metal like aluminum (Source)
- Copper can be difficult to weld (Source)

I looked into this SUPER quickly, but maybe it can be used as a jumping point. Cool sounding story, by the way!

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Thanks, I'll read up on this.

I'm having the hardest time finding sites that talk about what planes were made of.

I am reading some interesting stuff about innovations in aircraft in WWII. So far all my aircraft have propellers, for instance. The eagles have four engines, like Flying Fortress. Maybe my hummingbirds should have jet engines?

ETA:
Would it make sense for the eagles to have turboprop engines? Could I have my rebel scientist develop turbofan engines based on them? The rebels stole the notebook of the engineer who developed the eagles, so my scientist is using it to create the hummingbirds. It would be cool if I could have him use the technology for the eagles in some kind of new way, like going from turboprop engines to turbofans.

I realize that in RL it probably went in the opposite order, but could it make sense for it to work that way?

ETA2:
From wikipedia: "It is due to these effects that propellers are known to suffer from dramatically decreased performance as they approach the speed of sound. It is easy to demonstrate that the power needed to improve performance is so great that the weight of the required engine grows faster than the power output of the propeller can compensate. This problem was one that led to early research into jet engines, notably by Frank Whittle in England and Hans von Ohain in Germany, who were led to their research specifically in order to avoid these problems in high-speed flight."

I gather that certain propellers (like the Stearman's--which is a plane I based one of my ordinary aircraft on for the novel) have propellers that reach supersonic speeds, causing turbulence. If I understand the above correctly, this contributed to the development of jet engines. As they made larger, more powerful engines, they needed propellers that could move faster to compensate for the added weight? Is that right? It would be good for me to understand this as I can use it in my scientist's breakthrough.

I'm wondering if I can use control reversal and wing twist as reasons for the development of hummingbird-like wings. What do you think?

ETA: Am I understanding the process of wing twist correctly: air flow is so powerful over the wing due to high speeds that although the intention was for the wing to push down, instead it snaps up, like a reversed umbrella? And then everything else to do with the wing is somehow reversed? Not sure I'm totally getting this.