A question about drugs available in the UK in 1843

Shakesbear

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Have you read Dickens Christmas Carol? If you have then you will know that in one night Scrooge saw four spectres – the ghosts of Christmas past, present and yet to come, and his partner Jacob Marley. But suppose he didn’t. Suppose he was the victim of a spiked drink. What drug, if one existed back in the Britain of 1843, would induce him to see the spectres, and make them real enough, to persuade him that they were real? I would be really grateful for any help and/or advice on this. Thank’ee.
 

snafu1056

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Agreed. Mushrooms for sure. Actually some hallucinogenic mushrooms are so powerful that even drinking the urine of someone who ingested them will get you high. If you want to go the gross route :p
 

Shakesbear

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Something like a tincture of datura, a plant from the Nightshade family, would be hallucinogenic, but I don't know what species might have been around in 1843 England. Still, it's a starting point for research.

Thank you. Datura was around then. I've just researched it and it seems to demand a certain amount of expertise when using it - so that may not be exactly what I am after. The plant grows wild in my garden. It really is a nuisance!
 

Shakesbear

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Psilocybin - easily found in the British countryside and would get the job done ( speaking from experience here :) )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin_mushroom

This could be exactly what I am looking for! Thank you so much. Just did a some research and the found this: "The first mention of hallucinogenic mushrooms in European medicinal literature appeared in the London Medical and Physical Journal in 1799: a man had served Psilocybe semilanceata mushrooms that he had picked for breakfast in London's Green Park to his family. The doctor who treated them later described how the youngest child "was attacked with fits of immoderate laughter, nor could the threats of his father or mother refrain him."[SUP][10]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin_mushroom[/SUP]

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Agreed. Mushrooms for sure. Actually some hallucinogenic mushrooms are so powerful that even drinking the urine of someone who ingested them will get you high. If you want to go the gross route :p

Thank you. I think that mushrooms will be just the thing!
 

Shakesbear

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WOW!!! You guys really are the best of the very best. I had no idea where to start looking - you have saved me so much time and - well, thank you.
 

waylander

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Just a note that the taste of these mushrooms and any hot water extract of them is not pleasant. It would need to be disguised if you want your subject unaware.
 

Shakesbear

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Just a note that the taste of these mushrooms and any hot water extract of them is not pleasant. It would need to be disguised if you want your subject unaware.

waylander thanks for the heads up. Would it be noticable in a curryy?

Also, any idea how long before it starts to kick in once swallowed?
 

waylander

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I doubt you would notice it in a curry. About 30 mins before you start to feel the effects
 

blacbird

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As an aside, with psilocybin-bearing mushrooms you need to be very careful about your identification. They are not the easiest of species to recognize (see David Arora's excellent compendium Mushrooms Demystified). They are generally small, brownish mushrooms that Arora labels LBMs -- Little Brown Mushrooms. Problem is there are other LBMs, like Galerina automnalis, that are deadly poisonous.

caw
 

M Louise

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You might also look at the patent medicines widely available in Victorian England -- I became interested in this when I was reading an account of the murder of Charles Bravo, an unsolved murder involving not just the little-known poison antimony but copious amounts of laudanum (a tincture of opium mixed with wine or water) taken for toothache. Opium tinctures, pastes and suppositories were widely used and had hallucinatory side effects, overdoses resulted in deaths. A mix of opium, treacle and water was known as Mother's Friend and given to small children with colic.
 

neandermagnon

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I would find Ebenezer Scrooge eating curry to be somewhat anachronistic, and not at all fitting with his character. Granted that curry wasn't unheard of by the British at this time, but it didn't become an integral part of British cuisine until the 20th century. Scrooge doesn't strike me as someone who'd venture outside of mainstream British cuisine and he hasn't spent any time in India so why would he ever eat curry? I think he'd find the idea of eating a dish from some distant part of the British Empire that he's got no interest in to be a ridiculous extravagance. He was a miser. He probably dined on bread and dripping like a poor person to avoid spending much money. In the book he initially blames the appearance of Marley's ghost on an indigestible bit of cheese (i.e. too miserly to even buy a decent cheese).

I would associate curry eating in this era with extravagant people who have lived many years in the colonies and miss it, who are rich enough to buy the spices (and likely employ someone to cook it for them too) and ostentatious rich people who like to serve food from the colonies as a way of showing off how wealthy, cultured and well-travelled they are. Scrooge is not even close to being any of those.

I was thinking of opium when I read the OP and I second the suggestion of laudanum. You wouldn't even need to have someone spike his food/drink with this, as it was commonly prescribed by doctors before they fully understood the dangers. It's likely a miserable old sod like Scrooge would probably have kept laudanum at home for whatever ailments he suffered (probably quite a few niggly ones made worse by being generally miserable). If it's important for your plot that someone spikes his food/drink, then maybe he's given laudanum by someone that's got a higher than usual opium and/or alcohol content (e.g. mixed with strong gin) - be careful not to make it so much stronger that it would kill him.

Scrooge may have had laudanum prescribed to him by a doctor for something that sounds utterly ridiculous nowadays. For example Aleister Crowley (who lived a bit later, i.e. late 19th and early 20th century) was prescribed heroin (or another strong opiate?) for asthma. So if you want Scrooge to have a reason for having laudanum in the house... a doctor or chemist recommending it for just about any medical reason you like (no matter how dangerous it would be considered nowadays) would be plausible in this era.

On that, there's a scene in Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain where Tom gives the cat "painkiller" - the way the cat reacts to this is apparently how cats react to opiates. (Disclaimer: I'm not a vet, I once read that cats react like this to opiates (or a particular opiate) and immediately thought of that scene from Tom Sawyer.) Opiates were given out like smarties during this era.
 
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Bacchus

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Hi Shakesbear, you might also want to look into the effects of ergot - a fungus which grows on wheat which is closely related to LSD and is believed to have caused "the great fear" at the end of the c18th - paranoid hallucinations amongst the people of France during the events leading up to the revolution
 

neandermagnon

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Hi Shakesbear, you might also want to look into the effects of ergot - a fungus which grows on wheat which is closely related to LSD and is believed to have caused "the great fear" at the end of the c18th - paranoid hallucinations amongst the people of France during the events leading up to the revolution

It also causes nasty physical symptoms such as vomiting, convulsions, burning sensations in the limbs and even gangrene. It can be fatal. You can isolate LSD from it in the lab, but this wasn't done until the 1930s and if you poison someone with ergot they're going to be very ill as well as having hallucinations. This doesn't fit with the Christmas Carol story where Scrooge is fine the next morning - not just fine a completely changed man, and suffers no adverse effects.

Though depending on where the OP is going with the story (like if he or she wants Scrooge to also suffer physical symptoms), it may be ideal.
 
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Bacchus

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It also causes nasty physical symptoms such as vomiting, convulsions, burning sensations in the limbs and even gangrene. It can be fatal. You can isolate LSD from it in the lab, but this wasn't done until the 1930s and if you poison someone with ergot they're going to be very ill as well as having hallucinations. This doesn't fit with the Christmas Carol story where Scrooge is fine the next morning - not just fine a completely changed man, and suffers no adverse effects.

Though depending on where the OP is going with the story (like if he or she wants Scrooge to also suffer physical symptoms), it may be ideal.

I am not an expert, but I thought that ergot infestations could affect bread or even wheat beer without all the side effects, so might be useful if the OP wanted an accidental dream sequence.

I had a "winter special" beer from a local brewery once which wasn't made with wheat but which did give me some very weird dreams!
 

stephenf

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Hi
In the time period your using , there was not any control on drugs or poisons . The first control on poisons was introduced in 1868 . Even then it was a control of sale, not a ban . Anybody could buy anything from a chemist / pharmacist . The chemist would make all their potions and often contained unpleasantness. Strychnine was used to improve muscle tone . Most of the narcotics, such as opium and cannabis, were dissolved in alcohol and sold as tinctures. Cannabis was widely available and will produce the desired affect.
 
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waylander

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It also causes nasty physical symptoms such as vomiting, convulsions, burning sensations in the limbs and even gangrene. It can be fatal. You can isolate LSD from it in the lab, but this wasn't done until the 1930s and if you poison someone with ergot they're going to be very ill as well as having hallucinations. This doesn't fit with the Christmas Carol story where Scrooge is fine the next morning - not just fine a completely changed man, and suffers no adverse effects.

Not quite. You can isolate ergotamine from ergot fungus but it requires a couple of reactions to make LSD.
 

Shakesbear

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neandermagnon[/QUOTE]I would find Ebenezer Scrooge eating curry to be somewhat anachronistic, and not at all fitting with his character. Granted that curry wasn't unheard of by the British at this time, but it didn't become an integral part of British cuisine until the 20th century. Scrooge doesn't strike me as someone who'd venture outside of mainstream British cuisine and he hasn't spent any time in India so why would he ever eat curry? I think he'd find the idea of eating a dish from some distant part of the British Empire that he's got no interest in to be a ridiculous extravagance. He was a miser. He probably dined on bread and dripping like a poor person to avoid spending much money. In the book he initially blames the appearance of Marley's ghost on an indigestible bit of cheese (i.e. too miserly to even buy a decent cheese).[/QUOTE]


To answer your question “why would he ever eat curry?” is very simple - it was cheap and nutritious. The City of London, where Scrooge worked borders the East End of London and the London Docks. Spices and other ‘exotic’ food stuffs were unloaded there for centuries. Many exotic foods were first introduced to England by knights retuning from the Crusades – indeed one of the earliest English cookery books, written in 1390,[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The Forme of cury “is the first English text to mention olive oil, cloves, mace and gourds in relation to British food. Most of the recipes contain what were then luxurious and valuable spices: caraway, nutmeg, cardamom, ginger and pepper. There are also recipes for cooking strange and exotic animals, such as whales, cranes, curlews, herons, seals and porpoises.” http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/texts/cook/medieval/pygghome/pygg.html

In medieval times pottages were sometimes seasoned with spices “– these were an extra source of flavouring but as they had to be imported, they were expensive and usually only affordable by the rich. The most common spices used in pottage included cloves, nutmeg and cinnamon. Saffron strands were sometimes used to add colour and an extra exotic flavour saffron was the most expensive of all spices imported.” http://www.medieval-recipes.com/recipes/pottage/

There is a long history of spices being used to flavour food.

The first curry house opened in London in 1810.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4290124.stm







[/QUOTE] I would associate curry eating in this era with extravagant people who have lived many years in the colonies and miss it, who are rich enough to buy the spices (and likely employ someone to cook it for them too) and ostentatious rich people who like to serve food from the colonies as a way of showing off how wealthy, cultured and well-travelled they are. Scrooge is not even close to being any of those. [/QUOTE]

Scrooge was too mean to employ a cook so he probably had his evening meal – or lunch – at a chop house or a curry house. He may not have been cultured of well travelled, but he was wealthy. It may have been nabobs who would show off, the Upper Ten Thousand would have not needed to.

[/QUOTE] I was thinking of opium when I read the OP and I second the suggestion of laudanum. You wouldn't even need to have someone spike his food/drink with this, as it was commonly prescribed by doctors before they fully understood the dangers. It's likely a miserable old sod like Scrooge would probably have kept laudanum at home for whatever ailments he suffered (probably quite a few niggly ones made worse by being generally miserable). If it's important for your plot that someone spikes his food/drink, then maybe he's given laudanum by someone that's got a higher than usual opium and/or alcohol content (e.g. mixed with strong gin) - be careful not to make it so much stronger that it would kill him.

Scrooge may have had laudanum prescribed to him by a doctor for something that sounds utterly ridiculous nowadays. For example Aleister Crowley (who lived a bit later, i.e. late 19th and early 20th century) was prescribed heroin (or another strong opiate?) for asthma. So if you want Scrooge to have a reason for having laudanum in the house... a doctor or chemist recommending it for just about any medical reason you like (no matter how dangerous it would be considered nowadays) would be plausible in this era. [/QUOTE]

I did research laudanum, but it would not fit in with the plot I have in mind. It has to be something that would be free.

Thanks for your input.
 

Shakesbear

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Thank you all so much. This has really helped me. Really. The mushrooms are ideal as they would not cost anything and produce the effect I need for the plot. I ran the plot/storyline past a friend whose reaction surprised me. I was told it was way to dark and could not end the way I planned it. However, the person who 'commissioned' (sp?) the play is fine with it. So... when I've got the whole thing planned I'll post a synopsis for you to pore over!

Sorry if there are any typos but the bulb over my desk blew and I can only just see the key board. I did notice this one:
"There is a long history of spies being used to flavour food."
 

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The writings of Thomas De Quincy's and Samuel Taylor Coleridge made the Victorian intellectual interested in recreational drugs . It mostly revolved around opium . There is some mention of mescaline , found in peyote . But the interest in things like Psiocybin mushrooms , as a drug, is relatively modern . In Victorian times psiocybin was considered to be poisonous , a thing to be avoided .
 
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Zaffiro

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I think British Victorian curries were a lot milder than what we're used to - chillies didn't really feature. They might have masked the taste of mushrooms anyway, but it might be worth checking.
 

neandermagnon

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To answer your question “why would he ever eat curry?” is very simple - it was cheap and nutritious. The City of London, where Scrooge worked borders the East End of London and the London Docks. Spices and other ‘exotic’ food stuffs were unloaded there for centuries. Many exotic foods were first introduced to England by knights retuning from the Crusades – indeed one of the earliest English cookery books, written in 1390,The Forme of cury “is the first English text to mention olive oil, cloves, mace and gourds in relation to British food. Most of the recipes contain what were then luxurious and valuable spices: caraway, nutmeg, cardamom, ginger and pepper. There are also recipes for cooking strange and exotic animals, such as whales, cranes, curlews, herons, seals and porpoises.” http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/texts/cook/medieval/pygghome/pygg.html

Interesting. How cheap is cheap though? These things weren't unheard of but spices in that era were very expensive. I know various foods have been imported via trade routes all the way from China long before this time, and from the New World after westerners got there, but there's a difference between what was readily available for the ordinary person and what was very expensive, extravagant fare that only the rich could afford.

My family is from London (working class/very poor) so maybe I'm looking at it much more from a commoner's perspective rather than from the perspective of wealthy colonialists. To my grandparents in their childhood, bananas and oranges were exotic foods. Maybe rationing made a difference, albeit they were young adults by the time the war broke out (not sure their exact age when the war broke out* but too old to be evacuated, while they had younger siblings that were evacuated). And I'm not convinced that curry in this era would be something ordinary people could afford. There was a massive gulf between the rich and the poor. But like I said, maybe I'm looking at this too much from the perspective of working class Londoners.

*too lazy to maths, obviously I knew how old they were when they were alive

I can believe that Scrooge would be rich enough to afford these but I would need some in-story information about it for it not to come across as out of character that he'd be eating such a dish.
 
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