debate
James D. Macdonald claims to have won this debate. If he won, this thread will remain.
The Debate - Page One
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shelagh Posted: Feb 18 2006, 06:49 PM
Why was I banned from the AW forum?
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 19 2006, 04:50 AM
That's off topic.
The debate here is on PublishAmerica and its business practices.
Here are the ground rules. We will be talking only about PublishAmerica. If I ask questions, I expect the answers to be factual and complete. In return I will answer completely and factually any questions you might have.
I expect you to publicize the address of this forum on the PublishAmerica Message Board, both in the public area and the private area.
I regret that my participation here will be sporadic over the next several days. I'm travelling.
To the debate then:
Resolved: PublishAmerica is a vanity press.
Resolved: PublishAmerica engages in unfair trade practices including false and misleading advertising.
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shelagh Posted: Feb 19 2006, 08:44 AM
If you ask questions, you expect them to be factual and complete, but if I ask questions, you will decide if they are relevant or not!
Definition of: vanity press
n.
A publisher that publishes a book at the expense of the author.
Now, are we going to debate whether PublishAmerica is a publisher or a printer, or are we going to accept that PublishAmerica is a publisher and therefore the above definition can be contested?
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 19 2006, 02:02 PM
I have no problem with defining PublishAmerica as a publisher.
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shelagh Posted: Feb 19 2006, 03:56 PM
Good. Publishers might be grouped into five categories according to William Germano in his book "What Do Publishers Do?" http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/288447.html
In which category would you place PublishAmerica?
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 20 2006, 01:31 AM
Welcome, Carl. I'm delighted to see you here and have a chance to talk with you directly.
Shelagh, I'm on a very slow connection here. I'll look over the article you linked to. I regret that I may not be able to log on again until sometime Tuesday.
-- JDM
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shelagh Posted: Feb 20 2006, 09:14 AM
I have deleted three posts by AW members: one by Argile Stox, another by Dee Power and a third by a guest posing as Carl Baxter. I set up this debate board as a private board to facilitate a frank and fair exchange of views because I knew that AW members would interfere.
Carl Baxter is not interested in having a debate with you or anyone else.
You set the rules; I merely complied.
Christine Norris posted the following comment on the AW forum:
A guest did copy and paste from the PAMB into a post here. Carl told me that he did not make a post on this forum. The accusation that Carl is a liar is, therefore, libellous and I have the IP address to prove it.
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 20 2006, 05:49 PM
Thanks for pointing out Mr. Germano's article, shelagh. He's addressing an audience primarily of academics who are writing non-fiction.
His list isn't exhaustive. For example, neither vanity presses nor author mills are mentioned. Nor does he address the plethora of small presses among the trades, where they belong. I'd have to say that, for his list, PublishAmerica is "none of the above." If I were pressed to fit PublishAmerica into one of his five categories I'd be forced to put it into that part of self-publishing that he dismisses with a single sentence: "Sophisticated packagers are available to help the ambitious writer move an idea to market without knocking on the doors of trade houses."
Tell me: Into which of Mr. Germano's categories would you place each of these publishers?
Dorrance
Vantage
iUniverse
AuthorHouse
Xlibris
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shelagh Posted: Feb 20 2006, 06:39 PM
This web site features the first two publishers on your list:
http://www.fictionfactor.com/self/vanity.html
This web site lists the third and fifth publishers on your list:
http://www.publishondemand.net/help/
This web site features the third, fourth and fifth on your list:
http://www.fonerbooks.com/q_vanity.htm
They all seem to be self-publishing, vanity presses (category five).
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 21 2006, 04:26 AM
"They all seem to be self-publishing, vanity presses (category five)."
Okay, all five (Vantage, Dorrance, iUniverse, Xlibris, and AuthorHouse) are vanity presses.
Let's not confuse self-publication with vanity publication, shall we?
With self-publication the author retains all the rights, and takes all the profits.
With vanity publication the author does not retain all rights, and receives only a portion of the profits.
Of course, that latter statement makes vanity publication indistinguishable from trade publication. Could you help me out by suggesting some ways in which vanity publishing differs from trade publishing?
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shelagh Posted: Feb 21 2006, 09:26 AM
The term "vanity press" was coined by The acknowledged expert, Johnathon Clifford: http://www.vanitypublishing.info/index.html
If publishers charge you to publish your book - they are vanity publishers.
You make a distinction between self-publishing and vanity publishing, others do not:
Of the five publishers listed by you, only iUniverse and Xlibris are listed on PublishOnDemand.net.
Two of the publishers on your list are self publishers, but all five are vanity publishers.
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 22 2006, 03:47 AM
Among the distinctions I make between self-publishing and vanity publishing is this: in self-publishing the author owns the ISBN. In vanity publishing the publisher owns the ISBN.
Self-published authors also retain all their rights. Vanity published authors do not.
I am unaware of any reputable authority that confuses the two, nor do the quotes you give support any other view.
Yes, some vanity presses style themselves "self publishers" or "self-publishing services," but in this they are being misleading.
I am fully aware of your countryman, Mr. Clifford, his history and his reputation. Will you admit him as an expert, if I were to quote him on the subject of PublishAmerica and its business model?
You quoted this bit:
Do you stand by it? It is easily demonstrated that PublishAmerica is a POD (Print on Demand/Publish on Demand) publisher, and, therefore, a vanity publisher by this definition.
===========
Getting back to Mr. Germano for a moment: in which of his categories do you place PublishAmerica?
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Guest Posted: Feb 22 2006, 06:21 AM
Actually, three of them are listed. AuthorHouse is the new name for 1st Books. Since 1st Books changed its name to AuthorHouse in March, 2004, I wonder whether PublishOnDemand.net has been updated lately.
Vantage and Dorrance generally use offset printing rather than digital printing. From this we can see that printing technology doesn't define whether a press is a vanity press.
Would you agree with that?
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shelagh Posted: Feb 22 2006, 09:56 AM
Irrespective of what they seem to be, they are all vanity presses.
With respect to the question about categories (to which you replied):
Btw, I found this interesting (vanity publishing): http://www.abbookman.com/ABBookman_E100104.html
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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Guest Posted: Feb 22 2006, 05:27 PM
That's rather a side trip. Poor dear Rick Russell is arguing that some vanity-published books fetch more on the collectors' market than some commercially-published books. This is true. It's also irrelevant. Certain letters fetch more on the collectors' market than those same vanity-published works he cites. Certain baseball cards fetch more. Certain comic books fetch more. The price on the collectors' market speaks more to the rarity of an item than to its quality.
Rick also says,
The argument isn't that vanity publishers never publish worthwhile works. The argument is that vanity publication is a poor choice for an author since it produces few sales, few readers, and small income. Not a dime of any of those prices Rick cites goes to the author.
Rick isn't worth considering.
=======
Now you place PublishAmerica in Mr. Germano's category one, eh? Let's review that.
First, you are aware that Mr. Germano is talking about academic non-fiction, while PublishAmerica produces very little academic non-fiction? I leave this aside out of a sense of friendliness, but will soon come up with other lists of categories of publishing which may be more relevant.
What do we learn about trade publishing from that?
* Trade publishing is located in New York
* Trade publishing has best sellers
* Trade publishing seeks books that will be profitable quickly
* Trade publishing seeks to reach great numbers of people
Of those four items, PublishAmerica matches only one: they seek to publish books that will be profitable quickly.
I have demonstrated elsewhere, and am prepared to do so again, that PublishAmerica's investement in each of their titles is on the order of $300. When the author has bought 30 copies of his or her own book, PublishAmerica has made back that investment, and all other sales beyond that are profit.
Let's look at some more items from Mr. Germano's article:
Let's look at some more of Mr. Germano's article:
I invite your attention to Mr. Germano's subheadings, particularly Selecting the Project, Making a Book, and Spreading the News. In each of those areas, for each of the functions he lists, PublishAmerica either performs that function in the most minimal way possible or not at all.
Thus we can see that whatever PublishAmerica is, it isn't a trade publisher.
The Debate - Page One
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shelagh Posted: Feb 18 2006, 06:49 PM
Why was I banned from the AW forum?
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
-----
James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 19 2006, 04:50 AM
That's off topic.
The debate here is on PublishAmerica and its business practices.
Here are the ground rules. We will be talking only about PublishAmerica. If I ask questions, I expect the answers to be factual and complete. In return I will answer completely and factually any questions you might have.
I expect you to publicize the address of this forum on the PublishAmerica Message Board, both in the public area and the private area.
I regret that my participation here will be sporadic over the next several days. I'm travelling.
To the debate then:
Resolved: PublishAmerica is a vanity press.
Resolved: PublishAmerica engages in unfair trade practices including false and misleading advertising.
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shelagh Posted: Feb 19 2006, 08:44 AM
If you ask questions, you expect them to be factual and complete, but if I ask questions, you will decide if they are relevant or not!
Definition of: vanity press
n.
A publisher that publishes a book at the expense of the author.
Now, are we going to debate whether PublishAmerica is a publisher or a printer, or are we going to accept that PublishAmerica is a publisher and therefore the above definition can be contested?
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 19 2006, 02:02 PM
I have no problem with defining PublishAmerica as a publisher.
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shelagh Posted: Feb 19 2006, 03:56 PM
Good. Publishers might be grouped into five categories according to William Germano in his book "What Do Publishers Do?" http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/288447.html
In which category would you place PublishAmerica?
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
-----
James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 20 2006, 01:31 AM
Welcome, Carl. I'm delighted to see you here and have a chance to talk with you directly.
Shelagh, I'm on a very slow connection here. I'll look over the article you linked to. I regret that I may not be able to log on again until sometime Tuesday.
-- JDM
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shelagh Posted: Feb 20 2006, 09:14 AM
I have deleted three posts by AW members: one by Argile Stox, another by Dee Power and a third by a guest posing as Carl Baxter. I set up this debate board as a private board to facilitate a frank and fair exchange of views because I knew that AW members would interfere.
Carl Baxter is not interested in having a debate with you or anyone else.
You set the rules; I merely complied.
Christine Norris posted the following comment on the AW forum:
Yeah, right... that's why the same post was on the PAMB, also signed by Carl. You need to keep up shelagh. It was Carl, and if he told you different he's a liar.
A guest did copy and paste from the PAMB into a post here. Carl told me that he did not make a post on this forum. The accusation that Carl is a liar is, therefore, libellous and I have the IP address to prove it.
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 20 2006, 05:49 PM
Thanks for pointing out Mr. Germano's article, shelagh. He's addressing an audience primarily of academics who are writing non-fiction.
His list isn't exhaustive. For example, neither vanity presses nor author mills are mentioned. Nor does he address the plethora of small presses among the trades, where they belong. I'd have to say that, for his list, PublishAmerica is "none of the above." If I were pressed to fit PublishAmerica into one of his five categories I'd be forced to put it into that part of self-publishing that he dismisses with a single sentence: "Sophisticated packagers are available to help the ambitious writer move an idea to market without knocking on the doors of trade houses."
Tell me: Into which of Mr. Germano's categories would you place each of these publishers?
Dorrance
Vantage
iUniverse
AuthorHouse
Xlibris
-----
shelagh Posted: Feb 20 2006, 06:39 PM
This web site features the first two publishers on your list:
http://www.fictionfactor.com/self/vanity.html
This web site lists the third and fifth publishers on your list:
http://www.publishondemand.net/help/
This web site features the third, fourth and fifth on your list:
http://www.fonerbooks.com/q_vanity.htm
They all seem to be self-publishing, vanity presses (category five).
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 21 2006, 04:26 AM
"They all seem to be self-publishing, vanity presses (category five)."
Okay, all five (Vantage, Dorrance, iUniverse, Xlibris, and AuthorHouse) are vanity presses.
Let's not confuse self-publication with vanity publication, shall we?
With self-publication the author retains all the rights, and takes all the profits.
With vanity publication the author does not retain all rights, and receives only a portion of the profits.
Of course, that latter statement makes vanity publication indistinguishable from trade publication. Could you help me out by suggesting some ways in which vanity publishing differs from trade publishing?
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shelagh Posted: Feb 21 2006, 09:26 AM
The term "vanity press" was coined by The acknowledged expert, Johnathon Clifford: http://www.vanitypublishing.info/index.html
In 1959/60 when two American companies were advertising widely throughout the UK offering to publish individual poems in anthologies at £9 and £12 each respectively, I coined the phrase "vanity publishing". Since 1991 I have campaigned unceasingly for truth and honesty in the vanity publishing world and have become recognised as the authority on the subject.
If publishers charge you to publish your book - they are vanity publishers.
Many unwary authors are encouraged by a vanity publisher's initial promotional material which usually praises the work submitted - whatever its quality. Such publishers often misleadingly refer to themselves as 'partnership', 'self-', 'joint venture', or 'subsidy' publishers. But however they may refer to themselves and however much they may deny that they are - if they charge you to publish your book - they are a vanity publisher.
You make a distinction between self-publishing and vanity publishing, others do not:
On PublishOnDemand.net, we are using the term "print on demand", the term "publish on demand", and the concept of "vanity publishing" interchangeably. "Print on Demand" in and upon itself is simply a technology used by printers to be able to print a single copy of a book. Since the vast majority of Print on Demand Publishers are also "vanity" press publishers, this site serves to compare these self publishers to help you pick the right one.
Of the five publishers listed by you, only iUniverse and Xlibris are listed on PublishOnDemand.net.
Two of the publishers on your list are self publishers, but all five are vanity publishers.
Therefore any company that wants to charge you to publish your book is - by definition - a vanity publisher, whatever they may try to tell you to the contrary.VANITY PUBLISHER: OFFICIAL DEFINITION
(as accepted by the UK Advertising Standards Authority)
Vanity publishing, also self-styled (often inaccurately) as "subsidy", "joint-venture","sharedresponsibility", or even "self" publishing, is a service whereby authors are charged to have their work published. Vanity publishers generally offer to publish a book for a specific fee, or offer to include short stories, poems or other literary or artistic material in an anthology, which the authors are then invited to buy.
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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James D. Macdonald Posted: Feb 22 2006, 03:47 AM
Among the distinctions I make between self-publishing and vanity publishing is this: in self-publishing the author owns the ISBN. In vanity publishing the publisher owns the ISBN.
Self-published authors also retain all their rights. Vanity published authors do not.
I am unaware of any reputable authority that confuses the two, nor do the quotes you give support any other view.
Yes, some vanity presses style themselves "self publishers" or "self-publishing services," but in this they are being misleading.
I am fully aware of your countryman, Mr. Clifford, his history and his reputation. Will you admit him as an expert, if I were to quote him on the subject of PublishAmerica and its business model?
You quoted this bit:
On PublishOnDemand.net, we are using the term "print on demand", the term "publish on demand", and the concept of "vanity publishing" interchangeably. "Print on Demand" in and upon itself is simply a technology used by printers to be able to print a single copy of a book. Since the vast majority of Print on Demand Publishers are also "vanity" press publishers, this site serves to compare these self publishers to help you pick the right one.
Do you stand by it? It is easily demonstrated that PublishAmerica is a POD (Print on Demand/Publish on Demand) publisher, and, therefore, a vanity publisher by this definition.
===========
Getting back to Mr. Germano for a moment: in which of his categories do you place PublishAmerica?
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Guest Posted: Feb 22 2006, 06:21 AM
Of the five publishers listed by you, only iUniverse and Xlibris are listed on PublishOnDemand.net.
Actually, three of them are listed. AuthorHouse is the new name for 1st Books. Since 1st Books changed its name to AuthorHouse in March, 2004, I wonder whether PublishOnDemand.net has been updated lately.
Vantage and Dorrance generally use offset printing rather than digital printing. From this we can see that printing technology doesn't define whether a press is a vanity press.
Would you agree with that?
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shelagh Posted: Feb 22 2006, 09:56 AM
Obviously, what they "seem to be" and what they are differs.(shelagh)
They all seem to be self-publishing, vanity presses (category five).
Irrespective of what they seem to be, they are all vanity presses.
You wanted to make a point about the difference between self publishing and vanity publishing. I had already agreed that all the publishers on your list are vanity publishers.(shelagh)
You make a distinction between self-publishing and vanity publishing, others do not:
Yes, they do mislead don't they?(James D. Macdonald)
Yes, some vanity presses style themselves "self publishers" or "self-publishing services," but in this they are being misleading.
http://iuniverse.com/There's no need to waste years hoping that someone will publish your book. iUniverse makes it possible for you to become a published author today. Only we have professionals with extensive knowledge of the industry to guide you through a unique and supported self-publishing experience.
http://Xlibris.com/At Xlibris, we give you all of the tools you need to publish your book quickly, easily and affordably. Through leading-edge print-on-demand technology, we offer a wide variety of Design, Production and Publishing Services, as well as online distribution availability and Marketing Products for self-publishing authors.
http://www.authorhouse.com/Since 1997, AuthorHouse, the leading self-publishing company in the world, has helped authors achieve their book publishing goals with over 27,000 books in print. Choosing a reputable book publisher, among the many book publishing companies and book publishers available, is a very critical step towards the publishing process. Publishing a book with AuthorHouse means you'll be guided by author advocates who are serious about writing and publishing. They will help you choose the best book publishing options and the most effective marketing tools.
Unlike some book publishers, AuthorHouse authors retain all rights and control decisions around the publishing and marketing of their book. You determine how many and when copies of your published book are printed and you select your own royalty schedule. When your book is finished, it's available for order at more than 25,000 retail outlets worldwide, on the Internet at Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, and through the AuthorHouse online publishing company book store.
Join over 25,000 self-published authors who have trusted AuthorHouse to be their book publisher of choice. Publishing a Book is a great adventure! Let AuthorHouse be your guide.
With respect to the question about categories (to which you replied):
If pressed (no pun intended!) I would put PublishAmerica into category one.(James D. Macdonald)
I'd have to say that, for his list, PublishAmerica is "none of the above." If I were pressed to fit PublishAmerica into one of his five categories I'd be forced to put it into that part of self-publishing that he dismisses with a single sentence: "Sophisticated packagers are available to help the ambitious writer move an idea to market without knocking on the doors of trade houses."
Btw, I found this interesting (vanity publishing): http://www.abbookman.com/ABBookman_E100104.html
Shelagh Watkins
Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/
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Guest Posted: Feb 22 2006, 05:27 PM
http://www.abbookman.com/ABBookman_E100104.htmlBtw, I found this interesting (vanity publishing):
That's rather a side trip. Poor dear Rick Russell is arguing that some vanity-published books fetch more on the collectors' market than some commercially-published books. This is true. It's also irrelevant. Certain letters fetch more on the collectors' market than those same vanity-published works he cites. Certain baseball cards fetch more. Certain comic books fetch more. The price on the collectors' market speaks more to the rarity of an item than to its quality.
Rick also says,
This is factually untrue. Wynwood was not a subsidy publisher.One of the most expensive modern collectables: Grisham, John. A Time To Kill. New York: Wynwood Press, 1989, which has a value in the collector’s market of about $4000 in fine condition, was a subsidy publication.
The argument isn't that vanity publishers never publish worthwhile works. The argument is that vanity publication is a poor choice for an author since it produces few sales, few readers, and small income. Not a dime of any of those prices Rick cites goes to the author.
Rick isn't worth considering.
=======
Now you place PublishAmerica in Mr. Germano's category one, eh? Let's review that.
First, you are aware that Mr. Germano is talking about academic non-fiction, while PublishAmerica produces very little academic non-fiction? I leave this aside out of a sense of friendliness, but will soon come up with other lists of categories of publishing which may be more relevant.
Germano, Getting It Published1. Trade. Trade publishers, the big commercial houses based largely in New York and owned largely elsewhere, are what most people think of when they think of publishers at all. The houses are the source of more than half of the books published in the English language, and most conspicuously those on the bestseller list. When people talk about books, it's likely they're talking about trade books. Trade books are the ones most people—including you—read for pleasure and information. While no trade publisher is reluctant to have a backlist of titles that continue to sell year after year, the industry's trends are toward signing up only books that will be very profitable, and very profitable right away. Trade publishing thrives on precisely what scholarly publishing does not: the one depends upon reaching the greatest number of people quickly, while the other depends upon reaching enough of the right people over time. Trade houses do publish some scholarly books, but scholarship isn't the reason these publishers are in business. In the era of conglomerates, there are fewer independent trade publishers and more divisions, imprints, lines, and series within larger trade houses. Trade publishing isn't the focus of Getting It Published, simply because few scholarly writers will begin their publishing careers with trade.
What do we learn about trade publishing from that?
* Trade publishing is located in New York
* Trade publishing has best sellers
* Trade publishing seeks books that will be profitable quickly
* Trade publishing seeks to reach great numbers of people
Of those four items, PublishAmerica matches only one: they seek to publish books that will be profitable quickly.
I have demonstrated elsewhere, and am prepared to do so again, that PublishAmerica's investement in each of their titles is on the order of $300. When the author has bought 30 copies of his or her own book, PublishAmerica has made back that investment, and all other sales beyond that are profit.
Let's look at some more items from Mr. Germano's article:
PublishAmerica does not produce a catalogue, and does not promote to bookstores. In this they resemble vanity presses, not trade presses.Marketing departments issue all kinds of catalogues to promote books—ones you see and ones you won't unless you're a librarian or a bookseller. The trade catalogue is a publisher's principal tool for making sales to bookstores.
Your publisher may budget anywhere from fifty to several hundred "free and review" copies of your book. These are copies on which you will receive no royalties because they'll be given away or used in promotion.
PublishAmerica budgets up to five free copies for reviews, and, unlike trade publishing only sends them out to reviewers who request them, who are approved by PublishAmerica, and only after the book has been released. In this PublishAmerica resembles the vanity press.Your publisher will have an A-list of preferred review sites, and will automatically get copies of your book to the people at these publications and organizations.
Let's look at some more of Mr. Germano's article:
PublishAmerica's books are priced much higher than similar books produced wtih identical technology by other houses -- even than those produced by acknowledged vanity presses. PublishAmerica's discounts are far lower than those of any trade house. Between the two, they guarantee almost no penetration of the bookstore market. Since we've agreed that trade publishing "depends upon reaching the greatest number of people quickly," this demonstrates by itself that PublishAmerica can not be a trade publisher under Mr. Germano's definitions.Pricing and discounting. The publisher decides how much to charge for the book, and at what discount to sell it. The discount is granted to booksellers and wholesalers, and determines how widely the book will penetrate bookstore markets.
I invite your attention to Mr. Germano's subheadings, particularly Selecting the Project, Making a Book, and Spreading the News. In each of those areas, for each of the functions he lists, PublishAmerica either performs that function in the most minimal way possible or not at all.
Thus we can see that whatever PublishAmerica is, it isn't a trade publisher.
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