Spirits that aren't ghosts or demons/angels? (in fantasy)

sunandshadow · Jun 13, 2017

I found a fun worldbuilding exercise which basically says, "Take a trope that never really worked for you and reinvent it so it does." I picked "spirits" for the trope I want to play with. But I also wanted to check with you all, because even though I've never seen an existing version of spirits that I like much (Exalted probably came closest), maybe there are some great ones I've just never encountered.

Here's what I'm looking for as a good example of a spirit:
- Similar to the science fiction concept of an energy-based species rather than the usual matter-based species, or similar to the science fiction concept of a species that doesn't exist in the same range of dimensions that humans do, only a partially-overlapping range
- Spirits are not a remnant of anything dying, are not inherently good or evil, are not elementals, and are not supernatural or associated with a religion.
- Spirits eat and reproduce in a relatively normal biological way, aside from the fact that its all done with energy instead of matter.
- Spirits can and do interact with humans or a human-equivalent fantasy species; for bonus points a spirit can bond with a human to gain a physical form or the ability to affect matter.

So, have you encountered (or created) any good examples of spirits? What do you think spirits would eat, and how would they reproduce? A lot of folk fantasy and anime seems to just have a "spirit realm" where everything works pretty much the same as Earth except for an authorial declaration that all the "matter" here is actually made out of "spirit particles" or something, and that's why humans can't live there. Do you think this approach is a cop-out?

realityfix · Jun 20, 2017

Yours is an interesting question. Spirit is a catch-all word for anything that is non corporal or not physically real but always seems to also be associated with traditional ghosts. Who says that a spirit has to be an undead? Read the book The Wolfen and watch the 1981 movie Wolfen. The movie pushes this theme more than the book but essentially you have a pack of super intelligent and supernatural wolves that prey on the lost souls of humanity. They are invisible, for the most part, but can inflict deadly physical damage. The book ascribed them to Native American mythology but I have always viewed them as interdimensional entities that chose to take the form of wolves in our reality.

I have thought of doing a Lovecraftian story in which it is learned by the MC that not all ghosts are related to dead ancestors; some spirits are really the exiled souls of criminals in another dimension and that our reality is really becoming a penal colony for another reality. I think my idea sounds a little darker than where you were going. I do like your idea of reinventing a trope to fit an idea. Please post your work on SYW so I may have the privilege of viewing your creation. Best of luck with your idea.

Harlequin · Jun 21, 2017

I would say a spirit has to be supernatural. Not undead, sure (kitsune etc) but supernatural definitely.

If not supernatural, they'd just be (an incorporeal?) fantasy race.

sunandshadow · Jun 22, 2017

Harlequin said:
I would say a spirit has to be supernatural. Not undead, sure (kitsune etc) but supernatural definitely.

If not supernatural, they'd just be (an incorporeal?) fantasy race.

Why would an incorporeal fantasy race not be called spirits, and what would you call them instead? Because "incorporeal fantasy race" seems like it does describe what I want to worldbuild.

sunandshadow · Jun 22, 2017

realityfix said:
Yours is an interesting question. Spirit is a catch-all word for anything that is non corporal or not physically real but always seems to also be associated with traditional ghosts. Who says that a spirit has to be an undead? Read the book The Wolfen and watch the 1981 movie Wolfen. The movie pushes this theme more than the book but essentially you have a pack of super intelligent and supernatural wolves that prey on the lost souls of humanity. They are invisible, for the most part, but can inflict deadly physical damage. The book ascribed them to Native American mythology but I have always viewed them as interdimensional entities that chose to take the form of wolves in our reality.

I have thought of doing a Lovecraftian story in which it is learned by the MC that not all ghosts are related to dead ancestors; some spirits are really the exiled souls of criminals in another dimension and that our reality is really becoming a penal colony for another reality. I think my idea sounds a little darker than where you were going. I do like your idea of reinventing a trope to fit an idea. Please post your work on SYW so I may have the privilege of viewing your creation. Best of luck with your idea.

Thanks for the encouragement.

This is more of a worldbuiliding-for-fun exercise than planning for and actual piece of fiction. If I did post anything in SYW it would probably be a synopsis, not chapters. And it wouldn't be horror, despite a bit of a people-getting-eaten stuff. But if you'd be interested in looking at a synopsis I can let you know.

Smiling Ted · Jun 30, 2017

The Age of Unreason, by J. Gregory Keyes.

Harlequin · Jun 30, 2017

They would not be called spirits becuase the word would be meaningless.

If you had a world where spirits existed in belief, then I think they could be called that. For example, say that ghosts are not real in our world, but people believe in them anyway. And then we discoverd an alien race who are sort of incorporeal, and look a bit like floating green bedsheets. We might well be tempted to name them, officialy or otherwise, "ghosts", in relation to that mythical concept.

So yes, if the idea of spirits exists, and your race--who are not spirits but perhaps emulate some of their characteristics--turn up, I could see them being called spirits. Again, in reference to the mythical variety.

But calling them spirits when no concept of a spiritual world exists would be very odd, and redefining the term for the sake of it.

rwm4768 · Jun 30, 2017

One of the most interesting uses of spirits was in Rachel Aaron's Eli Monpress series. In that world, there's a spirit in everything. They're neither ghosts nor demons. Doors have spirits. Walls have spirits. Animals, of course, have spirits. It's a very interesting concept.

pschmehl · Jun 30, 2017

There is endless potential in writing about spirits. For example, they could eat nothing, because they are eternal. They could drink blood or eat livers or something else like that, because it's required for them to survive. (This leads to stories about them hunting for food.) They could not need to reproduce, because they are eternal. They could increase by recruiting dead humans. Or by turning humans into spirits. Their mission could be to destroy the earth (endless reasons for them wanting to do that.) Or it could be to save humans (endless reasons for that as well.) The one thing spirits can't be is human, but they could appear to be human - or take the form of humans. (Think Terminator for plenty of examples of how to do that.)

It's literally endless. Since humans don't know much about the spirit world, you can make it do, say, be, act, in any way you like and it will be believable. They could be invincible. Or not. They could be like Superman - only one thing threatens them. The ideas are literally endless.

blacbird · Jun 30, 2017

Talisker is a very good spirit.

caw

WriteMinded · Jul 2, 2017

I think of spirits as beings beyond the human pale. They don't eat, or reproduce, or engage in other mortal behaviors. But my thinking of them that way means nothing. Fantasy can take us anywhere we want to go.

I have wondered what they would think of us. Would we scare them? Disgust them? Would they think of us as lesser beings? How about writing from a spirit's POV?

Harlequin said:
" . . . For example, say that ghosts are not real in our world, but people believe in them anyway. . ."

Ghosts are real. My family and I lived with one. Not wanting to scare each other, we didn't mention it for a while, but then I said something and found out we'd all seen her.

rwm4768 said:
One of the most interesting uses of spirits was in Rachel Aaron's Eli Monpress series. In that world, there's a spirit in everything. They're neither ghosts nor demons. Doors have spirits. Walls have spirits. Animals, of course, have spirits. It's a very interesting concept.

Sounds very Native American.

Harlequin · Jul 2, 2017

That's a tangential point though, WM.

For the sake of argument, making no judgement on anyone's beliefs, I was suggesting a hypothetical scenario to illustrate a point. A linguistic point, I suppose I should say.

WriteMinded · Jul 3, 2017

Harlequin said:
That's a tangential point though, WM.

For the sake of argument, making no judgement on anyone's beliefs, I was suggesting a hypothetical scenario to illustrate a point. A linguistic point, I suppose I should say.

Oh. Gee. Thanks for explaining it to me.

Harlequin · Jul 3, 2017

Apologies if I misread, I'm not trying to insult.

I had a post on another thread earlier which I thought was clear, but got misunderstood. I find it safer to explain, just in case.

themindstream · Jul 3, 2017

It may be worth poking at other cultures mythologies here (a lot of them have ties to religion but the folklore likely predates the religion in many cases.

In Arabic tradition there are the Jinn (djinn, jini, genie). They have some things in common with demons in how they're portrayed but are not inherently good/evil; they were created from fire in much the same way man was created from earth; they have free will and their own societies; in the Quran some of them (ifrits) follow Inibis (the Islam paralel to Satan, forgive me if the name is misspelled) but others are devout Muslims).

In various animist traditions (Native American, Japanese Shinto, etc) everything may have a spirit associated with it. Japanese (and I think also Chinese) folklore has a whole host of other mythological spirits, so many that it's hard to go into detail.

Celtic/Gaelic/Welsh fey folk are not spirits per say but the idea of an Otherworld where they live is similar and they have a lot of qualities like your criteria. The Irish is the version I'm most familiar with; the people now thought of as the fey or faries were once known as the Tuatha De Dannan, an ancient race that settled Ireland. When modern humans came along they struck a deal where the TdD would retreat "into the hills" (the way into the otherworld) and leave the surface world to us.

Spirits that aren't ghosts or demons/angels? (in fantasy)

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

realityfix

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

rwm4768

practical experience, FTW

pschmehl

blacbird

WriteMinded

Derailed

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

WriteMinded

Derailed

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

themindstream