Bad Agent Blues

Luzoni · Jun 9, 2017

I'm still recovering from a really bad experience with an agent. Bad, as in when we parted she withdrew my MS from the publisher who wanted to buy it without my permission and left me with no contact info for the person she'd been negotiating the contract with. There was more she did as well, but I won't get into it. If you want to know, PM me, I guess.

My sob story is that I came away and chatted with a few other writers here and I know I'm not alone in my negative experience. So I feel like I don't want another agent and besides, if there is some kind of agent blacklist, I'm sure my ex agent got to put me on it. Meanwhile I have no recourse for her awful behavior. But agents are supposed to be the only way we can really achieve our dreams. Can I get anywhere without one?

So...depressed. Depressing.

I guess I'm just hoping for reassurance that there really isn't some list of author names agents share around. I know they talk. I just feel like *we* can't talk about this. Why can't we talk about this?? Seriously, I'm scared to post this. :-/ can we talk about this?

Cyia · Jun 9, 2017

Luzoni said:
I'm still recovering from a really bad experience with an agent. Bad, as in when we parted she withdrew my MS from the publisher who wanted to buy it without my permission and left me with no contact info for the person she'd been negotiating the contract with. There was more she did as well, but I won't get into it. If you want to know, PM me, I guess.

She needs to provide you a list of EVERY publisher/editor who has seen that MS. You need this list so that you can provide it to anyone else you sign with, that way a future agent won't approach the same editors with a piece they've already seen.

My sob story is that I came away and chatted with a few other writers here and I know I'm not alone in my negative experience. So I feel like I don't want another agent and besides, if there is some kind of agent blacklist, Not all agents are created equally, and not all agents fit with every client. I can't speak to what happened with you and yours, but there's absolutely no reason to think you can't get another, awesome agent. I'm sure my ex agent got to put me on it. It really doesn't work that way. If something stupendously rotten happened, then maybe they might share the info with their friends in the business, but it's not actually a blacklist, and there are dozens of agents out there. Meanwhile I have no recourse for her awful behavior. But agents are supposed to be the only way we can really achieve our dreams. Can I get anywhere without one? Some small presses will work directly with writers, and some larger publishers have times of the year where they're open to anyone who wants to submit, but by and large, an agent is going to get you a better deal with a mainstream publisher than you could do for yourself.

So...depressed. Depressing. Understandably so.

I guess I'm just hoping for reassurance that there really isn't some list of author names agents share around. There's not. I know they talk. I just feel like *we* can't talk about this. As long as you're not skywriting AWESOME AGENT IS A CROOK AND AND SKUNK, and keep things professional, you can ask for help.Why can't we talk about this?? Because writers are a jumpy, skittish lot of people who constantly think they've done 742 things wrong each time they hit "send" on an email or "post" on a post. Seriously, I'm scared to post this. :-/ can we talk about this?

DO NOT call the agent out in a public forum.

DO check to see if there's a thread about them or their agency in the Bewares section.

DO check your contract to see if there are waiting periods or other restrictions attached that will mean you have some time to kill before you can search out a new agent.

DO check your contract to see if there are clauses about needed to send something certified when you terminate your contract.

DO check your contract to see what strings, if any, are attached to the book they were shopping for you.

DO tell your former agent that you need that list of names.

DO remind yourself that one agent isn't the entire publishing community.

Do remind yourself that if your writing got you one agent, it can get you another one.

Maryn · Jun 9, 2017

(What a good post!)

Calla Lily · Jun 9, 2017

EVERYTHING Cyia said.

Old Hack · Jun 9, 2017

Luzoni said:
I'm still recovering from a really bad experience with an agent. Bad, as in when we parted she withdrew my MS from the publisher who wanted to buy it without my permission and left me with no contact info for the person she'd been negotiating the contract with. There was more she did as well, but I won't get into it. If you want to know, PM me, I guess.

I've just had a look at your posting history, Luzoni, and you've had a LOT of threads about your awful agent. Going back years. That sucks.

My sob story is that I came away and chatted with a few other writers here and I know I'm not alone in my negative experience.

There are always bad stories to tell. But there are also always good stories to tell, too. And the good stories outweigh the bad.

So I feel like I don't want another agent and besides, if there is some kind of agent blacklist, I'm sure my ex agent got to put me on it.

It's up to you whether or not you look for another agent. That's entirely your choice. But the only agent blacklists I know of are of dangerous, threatening people, who they keep records of in case they do anything worse.

Any agent who suggests otherwise is talking nonsense.

Meanwhile I have no recourse for her awful behavior.

I know. Again, it sucks. But there's no point wallowing. You have to get up and get out again. It's hard, I know. But lots of us do it every week. You can do this.

But agents are supposed to be the only way we can really achieve our dreams. Can I get anywhere without one?

So...depressed. Depressing.

Yes, you can do well without an agent. But you will probably do better with one.

It all depends on how you want to work, and where you want to go.

I guess I'm just hoping for reassurance that there really isn't some list of author names agents share around. I know they talk. I just feel like *we* can't talk about this. Why can't we talk about this?? Seriously, I'm scared to post this. :-/ can we talk about this?

Agents are people. Of course they talk to one another. But there isn't a blacklist of clients they tell each other not to touch. As I said earlier, they do keep lists of any dangerous ex-clients and of people who threaten them. But that's it.

As for your suggestion that "we" can't talk about this: I'm perplexed. You've started several threads about your troubles with your agent, many of which are quite lengthy. We talk about a lot of this sort of stuff, all over AW. There's no need to be scared, unless you're planning on becoming one of those people who make threats and libel agents.

I know it's hard. I know it's upsetting and saddening, and all those awful things. But it can also be wonderful. Stop reliving the bad times you had with your last agent. Start looking forward. Write a new book. Think about what else you can do.

Luzoni · Jun 9, 2017

I don't mean to wallow but I did want to warn others about it and I don't feel like can do that by going back to my old threads without creating drama. Mostly because I worried about angering people. I thought this would be the forum for such dejection (doesn't get much more depressing than losing an agent) and I just wanted to reaffirm that the idea of a blacklist is nonsense and the lack of interest I've had from agents is all just coincidental. It's just how awful she was to me in leaving...it's really rattled me. I know, paranoid right?

I didn't realize I was in a bad place for a long time. That's why I had so many threads about it. I guess we do talk about agents a lot but somehow...I just felt so woefully unprepared for the full awfulness and how helpless I was. I should have seen it a long time ago but yeah, I was naive. Plus my family always told me I was crazy for being unhappy and I should just have faith. But I just didn't hear about people leaving agents or having bad ones as much as i heard just advice and it wasn't from people who went thru it usually, just people writing how it should go from what they've heard. Maybe I just never saw the right threads! Selective reading. Like the denial. So I felt like I should step forward...but I'm kinda wishing I had just not. :X

But you know, I'm also here to remind myself that there are great agents. They do exist...even if they feel like unicorns right now. There were even good things about my ex agent, tho now all I can see is what she put me through at the end. So I apologize for being bitter.

But reaching out when I feel weak makes me feel so much better. I am so grateful to the forum for helping me over the years! I know I can do it again, but hearing it (er reading it) again always helps.

Luzoni · Jun 9, 2017

Cyia said:
DO tell your former agent that you need that list of names.

One thing about my agent was she almost never told me who she was subbing to by name. Do I need editor names on the list? Because I'm pretty sure my sub list has none and there's no way I'm getting one from her now.

Honestly, because of that, and the fact I only saw a few of the rejections in anything but her words, I cannot be 100% sure she even subbed to half the places she listed. For example...she used a form submission to send my MS to Baen. And of course they're on the sub list, even though I'm pretty sure my MS just went to a slushpile that never was looked at at all. So that doesn't count (I think) and I have to wonder...how many others did she do that sort of thing with and called it "subbing?"

UGH

Old Hack · Jun 9, 2017

Luzoni said:
I don't mean to wallow

I didn't mean to dismiss or insult your feelings by using that word--I am sorry. I know it's hard.

but I did want to warn others about it and I don't feel like can do that by going back to my old threads without creating drama. Mostly because I worried about angering people. I thought this would be the forum for such dejection (doesn't get much more depressing than losing an agent) and I just wanted to reaffirm that the idea of a blacklist is nonsense and the lack of interest I've had from agents is all just coincidental. It's just how awful she was to me in leaving...it's really rattled me. I know, paranoid right?

Take heart. Unless you threatened your agent, or stalked them, or did something unspeakably awful, there is no blacklist. Rather than worrying about this, perhaps you could revisit your query and see if that could be improved.

I didn't realize I was in a bad place for a long time. That's why I had so many threads about it. I guess we do talk about agents a lot but somehow...I just felt so woefully unprepared for the full awfulness and how helpless I was.

You might have felt hopeless, but you really weren't. You can always leave your agent and look for new representation. You can always write a new book. There are all sorts of things you can do. But when you're focused so strongly on the whole "get an agent and then find a publisher" thing it's hard to see past it.

I should have seen it a long time ago but yeah, I was naive. Plus my family always told me I was crazy for being unhappy and I should just have faith. But I just didn't hear about people leaving agents or having bad ones as much as i heard just advice and it wasn't from people who went thru it usually, just people writing how it should go from what they've heard. Maybe I just never saw the right threads! Selective reading. Like the denial. So I felt like I should step forward...but I'm kinda wishing I had just not. :X

Families can be great, but they don't understand the whole publishing thing. (And please don't use "crazy" like that, it's insulting to people with mental health issues.) There are threads about leaving agents; and when I responded in your threads I wasn't writing about "how it should go from what they've heard": I was responding from experience, both my own and that of my friends--both writers AND agents. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

But you know, I'm also here to remind myself that there are great agents. They do exist...even if they feel like unicorns right now. There were even good things about my ex agent, tho now all I can see is what she put me through at the end. So I apologize for being bitter.

But reaching out when I feel weak makes me feel so much better. I am so grateful to the forum for helping me over the years! I know I can do it again, but hearing it (er reading it) again always helps.

Keep heart. There are some brilliant, wonderful agents out there. Honestly. I know quite a few of them, and am always impressed by how hard they work and how passionate they are about their clients' works. I'm glad that AW is helping you feel better: I hope you're writing a new book, as that will definitely make things improve for you!

Luzoni said:
One thing about my agent was she almost never told me who she was subbing to by name. Do I need editor names on the list? Because I'm pretty sure my sub list has none and there's no way I'm getting one from her now.

Honestly, because of that, and the fact I only saw a few of the rejections in anything but her words, I cannot be 100% sure she even subbed to half the places she listed. For example...she used a form submission to send my MS to Baen. And of course they're on the sub list, even though I'm pretty sure my MS just went to a slushpile that never was looked at at all. So that doesn't count (I think) and I have to wonder...how many others did she do that sort of thing with and called it "subbing?" UGH

It would be helpful to have the names of those editors, but if you don't have them and your ex-agent won't provide them, there's nothing to be done.

Yes, slushpiles are read, so don't worry about that. Works sent in by reputable agents are treated differently to unsolicited ms from writers. I don't know about Baen, but it could be they only accept submissions through an online form. There are several publishers who do that, so don't worry about that, either.

If you want to feel better about this whole thing, write another book. Write five more books! Keep writing. Keep refining your talent and your craft. You don't have to submit anything if you don't feel ready. Just keep writing. Then when you've written something wonderful, you can reconsider the whole agent thing if you like.

It's worth considering if the whole agent thing is for you or not, because some writers manage perfectly well without them. I appreciate that a bad experience is traumatic and can have lasting effects, so I'm not saying you're not tough enough or anything like that: it's just that not everyone is suited to this particular route.

I hope you feel better about this soon.

lizmonster · Jun 10, 2017

I just wanted to add something that may or may not be helpful, so take or leave as needed.

I can't speak for the publishing business, but I was in software for 27 years, and regionally, at least, it's a pretty small community - a lot of us know each other. I know a handful of folks who are accomplished programmers, but are well-known as being extraordinarily difficult to work with. People may smile and nod to their faces, but their opinions about such things as other programmers are quietly ignored.

Which is my way of saying that based on what you've said, I suspect even if your agent chooses to say unfortunate things about you, her colleagues will smile and nod and ignore them. People don't behave unprofessionally like that without other professionals noticing. I doubt you have to worry about being blacklisted in any way at all.

As for advice: if you really can't get a list of subs out of her, I would think your best bet would be to write something new and query that. I know that sounds insurmountable right now, especially with an MS you love; but once you find new rep, your new agent might be able to help you figure out where your first MS was subbed and act accordingly. (And then they'll have two books to sell for you, which they will of course love!)

I know optimism can be difficult in this business. (Oh, boy, do I know it.) But if you can, try not to let your experience with this one agent erode your self-esteem. What you've been through is legitimately rough and demoralizing, and I'm sorry you fell afoul of someone who isn't holding up their end of the relationship. But I really do believe that the way through is to keep writing.

Feel free to DM if you want to talk.

Cyia · Jun 10, 2017

Luzoni said:
One thing about my agent was she almost never told me who she was subbing to by name. Do I need editor names on the list? Because I'm pretty sure my sub list has none and there's no way I'm getting one from her now.

The editor is the specific person at the imprint who would have acquired a novel. As long as you know the imprint (publisher), you should be okay. At least it's better than nothing.

Does the former agent have a boss you could email about this? Maybe even an assistant? Do you happen to have a lawyer friend who might type you up a more strongly worded request on letterhead that you could send certified? (If you do have this kind of friend, then demand the editor names, too. If she can't provide them, then she may not have submitted them to anyone specific at the publisher, which is weird.)

Honestly, because of that, and the fact I only saw a few of the rejections in anything but her words, I cannot be 100% sure she even subbed to half the places she listed. For example...she used a form submission to send my MS to Baen. You're sure of this? She wasn't writing targeted submission pitches? And of course they're on the sub list, even though I'm pretty sure my MS just went to a slushpile that never was looked at at all. So that doesn't count (I think) and I have to wonder...how many others did she do that sort of thing with and called it "subbing?" UGH

You really, really need that submission list, if there's any way at all to make her supply it. That she wouldn't is absolutely unprofessional. I've been in a situation where I parted ways with an agent - while on submission - and the *first* thing she did was send me a list like this:

Ann Smith -- imprint A (publisher)
Bob Smith -- imprint B (publisher)
Carla Smith -- imprint C (publisher) * still waiting to hear from this one.

Etc, etc, etc.

A list like this makes sure that the next agent doesn't resend the same book, but it also lets you know that there's a possibility of a deal with that third publisher. IF that deal were to go through, then the agent who initiated the deal would still be due her commission, even if she's no longer the writer's agent. It protects both sides' interests. The only reasons an agent wouldn't cough a list up on request are spite or the fact that the list doesn't exist.

Fuchsia Groan · Jun 10, 2017

Everyone has already given you wonderful advice, so I'll just add my sympathy. Several years ago, an agent decided to part ways with me, and it put me in a really bad place. Because for me, it wasn't just about the end of a business relationship; it was about being rejected by the only publishing professional who had ever said, "Yes, you ARE a writer."

Well, after a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth, I decided to write a "revenge book" just to show I wasn't done. And I got lucky that time, and another agent and an editor liked that book.

My ex-agent never behaved unethically; I'm very sorry to hear that yours did. That's awful. One thing that helped me NOT get bitter about agents (besides coming to AW) was reading Janet Reid's blog. She sets a pretty high ethical benchmark for her own and others' behavior, and offers common-sense explanations of why agents might, say, take a while to respond to a client.

She helped give me a sense of what to expect and (when necessary) demand. And FWIW, I currently have an agent who communicates well, gives me detailed sub lists, and just generally is a sweet and efficient person. Those aren't the sole qualities a writer may seek in an agent, but I assure you, you will find them out there. Don't lose heart.

Old Hack · Jun 10, 2017

In my experience, most agents are highly ethical, and work hard to help their author-clients. It's important that writers try to remember that, no matter how hard it might be.

Luzoni · Jun 10, 2017

Thank you all!!!! :Sun:

I'm actually feeling quite a bit better today. Ironically, (proper use of irony? Uncertain) it's because of a rejection! I got a rejection finally from a round of queries I sent out months ago that I thought were all going to be silent Rs, which suck. But instead I got a lovely, glowing rejection that said things like "your query and the premise of your book had me excited" and "you clearly put a lot of work into this" but ultimately she hadn't connected with it the way she felt she needed to and would have to pass. But it wasn't a form (I don't think) and was very complimentary which made me giggle with joy. Like, I've got this. I've been very shy about returning to subbing so I only sent out like three queries before sending it in full to DAW. Now I feel like if DAW wanted to acquire it I could reply back to her and ask if she wanted to do the negotiation bit...maybe. I have no idea how that would work, but at least I have someone who reached out to me. I plan on sending her a thank you for her reply and her time, which I know is precious, because even though it was an R, it was very nice and it made my night.

And then I got a late arriving like from an agent at PitMad for a different book, so that's exciting!

Cyia--I wish I had had the courage to email her boss, the agency's owner, at the time. I was too scared. Now...it's actually been months. A year, even. Long enough for me to be well out of the exclusion period. I spent most of it writing fanfiction to comfort myself. Not thinking about it and instead interacting directly with readers was such a joy. But it was also another form of denial. Anyway, now I gotta get back in the game and that's why it hit me again now. Plus...regrets. I should have realized I needed editors on the list. I should have left sooner. At least I came away from it with the sale still viable. The publisher has been a joy to work with, totally non-intimidating and open. I'm so lucky it was a small publisher and my desperate emails through their website's generic "contact us" form were passed along to the right people. Because I literally had NOTHING. No name. No email. Not even a projected publishing date. I didn't even know what my ex-agent was negotiating. I asked and she'd be like "Just stuff for your benefit." And inside I'm like...yeah? WHAT things?? I'm hands-on. I'm proactive. I want to know! Why won't you tell me?? Ugh.

When/if I do get another agent...all this is going to make for a really interesting...possibly awkward conversation.

OH--I haven't written much that's original since this happened. I had a lot of ideas and once wrote three or four novels in a year while I was with her, so I actually have a backlog of projects to pitch now. But she actually used to dissuade me. She liked to tell me my stuff was hard to sell and really niche. The first book I think really was, and it's a really hard industry, I get that. But the first one sold (to a place not requiring agented subs, BTW) and my next one was/is way more marketable. But she talked about it like she already knew it wouldn't sell. Strong female protag SF on a quest to find her long lost mother in a culturally blended future reminiscent of Firefly's? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that should sell far more easily than my first book, which was dark and gritty and way sadder. This is the one that got the glowing rejection and, when my current publisher passed on it as it just wasn't quite their style, she said she thought I would sell it easily. I'd almost forgotten that until the rejection, ha!

It's so stupid how we humans tend to remember the bad so much more than the good. But you guys are right. I have options and I'm really not in a bad place. I have material and I have a great query (many thanks to QLH, which turned my trash into gold). I seriously think I have come as far as I have in no small part due to the excellent people here. I need to get over to QLH again and crit others' work. I have a buddy who wants to start his search for an agent and he shared his first attempt at a query and I was like *wince* and then I said, "Get thee to QLH and start critting others' work."

Bad Agent Blues

Luzoni

Toddler wrangler

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Maryn

At Sea

Calla Lily

On hiatus

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Luzoni

Toddler wrangler

Luzoni

Toddler wrangler

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

lizmonster

Possibly A Mermaid Queen

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Fuchsia Groan

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Luzoni

Toddler wrangler