Time required to learn martial art

efreysson

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I'm putting together a fantasy setting based on Victorian London, and I'm working on a character's background. She's a young woman who suffered a near-fatal mugging and hired an expensive martial arts trainer afterwards. How long does it take to become competent at hand-to-hand fighting, and from there to become good? If they met perhaps two or three times a week?

For years elapsed, I'm thinking somewhere between 2-4. But if necessary, I'm willing to make adjustments. If it helps, she was athletic to begin with.

As for fighting style, I'm thinking some sort of cane-fighting, as walking canes are in fashion in the city, and they are a socially acceptable weapon.
 

Jason

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In the matrix- 10 seconds
normal time - competent in 2-3 yrs, black belt in 5 imho
 

dpaterso

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You said hand-to-hand fighting first -- for that I'd accept a longer training schedule to become not just competent but capable of taking down a larger, stronger opponent. 2-4 years seems excessive though. She's driven and she's athletic which means she has power, it just needs directed. My suspension of disbelief wouldn't snap if she learned deadly fighting skills within 6 months.

Also using a cane, I could easily accept her learning a couple of show-stopping moves very quickly.

This all boils down to her instructor, just how good is he? You said expensive, you didn't say Chuck Norris level.

-Derek
 

Dennis E. Taylor

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Athletic and young (?) helps. Motivated helps a lot. Other factors: How much time does she have? Does she have a day job? Is she a naturally aggressive person? Good sized or itty-bitty?

Assuming you're reasonably athletic, motivated, decent size, and not inclined to lock up as soon as someone waves a fist at you, you can get good enough to think you're good in six months. You can get good enough to actually scare people in a year or two, depending on the skill of those you are up against.

The big thing is training. If you get a lot of sparring and bag work, it helps a lot. The important thing is not the "moves" so much as it's about getting the whole thing into your hind-brain so you do it reflexively. If you have to think about what you're going to do next, you've already lost. Between training sessions, visualizing the techniques helps as well.
 

efreysson

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This all boils down to her instructor, just how good is he? You said expensive, you didn't say Chuck Norris level.

The idea is she sought out someone with practical experience, so the dude learned to fight on the streets and became good enough to make a living as a trainer, and sought after by people who don't mind his rough edge.

Athletic and young (?) helps. Motivated helps a lot. Other factors: How much time does she have? Does she have a day job? Is she a naturally aggressive person? Good sized or itty-bitty?

She's a musician, playing in bars during the evening, so her daylight hours are free. And I'm thinking about average sized, with a hard edge after the mugging incident.

If we assume she and the trainer meet 2-3 times a week, how long should a session be?
 

Layla Nahar

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I think the musician thing will help. She'll understand discipline and have a good relationship to her body. (IMO, playing and instrument is a kind of micro-athleticism)
 

Tsu Dho Nimh

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From personal experience ... one of my fellow students in a woman's self-defense course was good enough to fend off a purse snatcher toward the end of a semester course: twice a week with 3 hour sessions. She was carrying her judo gi (which wraps into a solid bundle) in one hand to her car and slammed it into the side of his head.

After that short training I managed to fend off multiple attempts (in one fight) by one of the school tough girls to damage me. I kept ducking and throwing her with a couple of the easy judo moves, then turning to face her (she could outrun me and I didn't want to inflict permanent damage) until she gave up.

This was a mix of techniques that could be learned quickly and required minimal strength - clearly dirty street fighting for up close situations. Kicking knees backwards, smashing noses, breaking arms and running like hell were favored, as was how to escape drunken hugs and being pinned against a wall. You don't have to be good at everything because the goal is to disable them fast, with ZERO warning, and get the heck out of there.

I flattened sensei - once - because he was ready for the evasive move we had been practicing and I reverted to the "when you have annoying brothers" elbow jab to the gut by instinct.
 

onesecondglance

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Depends on the student and the teacher.

Jason is correct - 2-3 sessions a week for 5 years with a reasonable teacher will get you to black belt (or equivalent) in most martial arts. Black belt is "competent". Not a superninja. But good enough to understand where they need to improve. Often it doesn't take long for people to get a baseline level of skill - Tsu Dho Nimh is also correct, basic and effective self-defence can be learned relatively quickly - but beyond that it takes time. Part of that is learning a larger vocabulary of techniques so you can choose the right one for the situation. Another part of that is learning them to the point where you don't have to think about choosing and just do it. Some people take more quickly to that, others much slower.

(The musician thing is a red herring, unless she's a drummer. Most instruments train fine motor control, not balance and large body movements. It helps with the attitude but not the actual muscle memory.)

It can also take time for some students to learn to actually hurt the attacker. It really can take a long time for some people to actually throw a punch that will hurt someone! You have to learn the control to attack with full force in real situations, and a reduced force for training.

As to how long the sessions should be - this depends on her fitness level. 2-3 hours a session with a recovery day in between would be reasonable.


So... if your plot requires your MC to be able to protect herself against an untrained, unarmed assailant, she should be able to manage that in a few weeks, working hard, but against multiple attackers, or any kind of skilled attacker, or an armed attacker, you need more time and more skill.

Or a lot of luck. A lucky fight probably works once in a novel. More than once and you will lose me as a reader.
 
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CameronJohnston

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In 6 months self-defence training she could know enough to really hurt a random attacker. In 2 years she would be competent verging on good if she's that driven. As with anything, it depends on the effort invested in learning it.
The other thing to bear in mind is what she does outside of those training sessions. Just because she has formal training with somebody else 2-3 times a week doesn't mean she can't practice certain things on her own in between.
 

threetoedsloth

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One thing to consider is the prospect of diminishing returns and plateaus. I don't know what the time frame of your story will be, but you can make quick reasonable progress in the beginning to merely competent before it starts to level off. Might be worth considering.
 

efreysson

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Kicking knees backwards,

As in... kicking a knee so the leg bends in the wrong direction??

One thing to consider is the prospect of diminishing returns and plateaus. I don't know what the time frame of your story will be, but you can make quick reasonable progress in the beginning to merely competent before it starts to level off. Might be worth considering.

Oh, this is all backstory stuff. She already has these skills when the story starts. I'm just figuring out the timeline.
 

efreysson

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However, consider the *type* of martial art. Some are very much hand-to-hand and emphasise speed (e.g., Wingchun); others can be very rigid and focus on form (superficial viewpoint), e.g., Karate. Still more have a balanced focus and can also help with chi, e.g., Taiji. But for such types of be used competently in hand-to-hand fighting, would probably take more than 6 months.

Although, you might look into Krav Maga. It sounds like that may be more suitable for your MC; it's relatively easy to grasp the concepts, and within a few practice sessions, she could become plausibly competent enough to be able to disarm an assailant with a knife. Wiki can start you off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

Oh, and my personal experience: takes a max. approx. 10 hrs to fully understand apply the very basic concepts of a martial art. But actual competent use requires approx. 6 months and up. Karv Maga is very useful, and extremely informative. It's also very easy to practice and implement within a few lessons. Wingchun is also very quickly taken on board.
:)

As I said, the trainer is an experienced street fighter, and so her training would be very no-nonsense and pragmatic.
 

Tsu Dho Nimh

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As in... kicking a knee so the leg bends in the wrong direction??

Yes ... a solid kick on the front of the knee of the leg the assailant has their weight on ... you will either dislocate the joint or break the tibia just below the knee. Either way, they will not be chasing you as you run like hell.

there is also the grapevine leg lock - you get in real close, wrap your leg around theirs at the knee and then quickly straighten your leg ... their knee goes crunch sideways and you can run. (it's illegal in most martial arts competition because it's really easy to dislocate the opponent's knee)
 

efreysson

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Yes ... a solid kick on the front of the knee of the leg the assailant has their weight on ... you will either dislocate the joint or break the tibia just below the knee. Either way, they will not be chasing you as you run like hell.

there is also the grapevine leg lock - you get in real close, wrap your leg around theirs at the knee and then quickly straighten your leg ... their knee goes crunch sideways and you can run. (it's illegal in most martial arts competition because it's really easy to dislocate the opponent's knee)

I would have thought this required monstrous strength. Maybe I'm overestimating the human body.
 

Cyia

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I would have thought this required monstrous strength. Maybe I'm overestimating the human body.

It's not strength; it's torque. Rotational force is something of an equalizer.

You can also have someone kick back into the knee, and keep pressure on the leg bone, jamming down as hard and fast as they can. You'll get multiple breaks, and the person behind you won't be getting up to chase you anytime soon.

Simplest self-defense to remember is that the line from the heel of the hand to the elbow is basically nature's ramrod. Keep your arm straight and apply as much thrusting force as possible, straight into the face. Aim for the nose.

Also the web between the thumb and index finger is soft tissue, so mostly unbreakable (not immune to damage, but you'll heal faster than the other guy). Shove that part of the hand into the other guy's windpipe.

These kinds of things aren't even "proficient" level tactics, but they can bring someone down. A little training and your girl should be able to do a judo-style momentum throw.
 

Thomas Vail

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These kinds of things aren't even "proficient" level tactics, but they can bring someone down. A little training and your girl should be able to do a judo-style momentum throw.
One thing to keep in mind is that most 'attackers' don't have specific unarmed combat training either, and just the basics can give someone much better understanding of what to do in a fight. Someone relying on, "I'm bigger and stronger' when they throw a punch is going to be vulnerable to someone who just has the basics of 'deflect blow like so, leaving them open for counter-attack like this.'
 

Liz_V

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I would have thought this required monstrous strength. Maybe I'm overestimating the human body.

No, unfortunately, it's stupidly easy to take out a knee. (Says the person with a bad knee from an accidental partial dislocation in a sparring session.) The knee is a complex, multi-part joint already under a lot of strain just from holding up a person's weight; catch it at the right angle, and surprisingly little force can do a lot of damage.

Joints in general are the body's weak points; in engineering terms, they sacrifice stability for mobility. And knees in particular are a very vulnerable design.

Seconding what others have said about learning time. Also, her attitude is going to be a huge factor. Someone who sincerely believes that anyone who tries to hurt her deserves a smack-down is going to reach practical proficiency a lot faster than someone who's squeamish about hurting someone, even someone who's attacking her.
 
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onesecondglance

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If this is all happening before your story starts and there's no reason to make it super-short, then I'd err on the side of longer. It's far easier for me to believe someone with a couple of years' training is competent than someone with a couple of months.
 

efreysson

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If this is all happening before your story starts and there's no reason to make it super-short, then I'd err on the side of longer. It's far easier for me to believe someone with a couple of years' training is competent than someone with a couple of months.

Yes, two years always was the ideal length for the backstory. I was wondering whether it was long enough.
 

BDSEmpire

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I'm putting together a fantasy setting based on Victorian London, and I'm working on a character's background. She's a young woman who suffered a near-fatal mugging and hired an expensive martial arts trainer afterwards.

What class of society does she come from? You mentioned musician a little later but is she part of the upper or middle class already? Where is she performing? If she's a lady of good breeding and proper upbringing then fencing seems like a fine Victorian martial art she would be likely to learn.

Here are several pages about women fencing in Victorian, England:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/429953095649684571/
http://victorianfencingsociety.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-victorian-fencing-outfit.html
http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.com/2012/10/fencing-in-regency-england-could-woman.html
http://www.historyspinner.com/library/womens-fencing-keep-body-youthful/

Teaching a young lady to fence for sport is what a reputable trainer would do. It's no great stretch that she'd think, "Gosh, if I took the blunted tip off of my rapier and sharpened it up a bit one could do an awful lot of harm!" No ethical instructor would consider telling her about this, unless you want them to be having some kind of affair.

Eastern martial arts are peculiar to the Orient and would not have had much penetration into Victorian society until right before Queen Victoria's death. Here is one example of something that did cross over, Bartitsu (est. 1898) https://breakingmuscle.com/learn/bartitsu-the-steampunk-mixed-martial-art As a happy coincidence, they accepted women into their training schools. Krav Maga, on the other hand, is a modern Israeli art and most definitely wouldn't be taught or known at that time.

Social class was everything back then (and that hasn't changed much today). Fighting was for men and so I wonder where her escort was when she was mugged? Why didn't he step in to protect her honor? What ghastly ruffian would take more liberties than snatching a purse?

If she's of the lower classes then Heaven alone knows what they get up to. One could picture a fishwife or barmaid having a knife on hand and sticking it somewhere soft. Their lives are poor and desperate and they don't have the benefits of a proper upbringing in spite of all the decent Christian societies we found to better their lot. In fact, the less one has to do with them, the better.


======

I've talked around this a bit but I hope it's clear that class structure is important in giving an authentic ring to your Victorian-themed story. If you've got a young lady of no means who lives on the edges of society then she's not going to have money to pay for training. She can engage in the oldest profession to barter for some tips but really, having a knife and shoving it into someone seems likely for any number of professions in the lower classes.

Here is some more background detail that may be handy. The Illustrated London News from 1852. This is what people would have been reading at the time if they were literate. There are lots of neat engravings in there that give a slice-of-life view of Victorian London.

https://books.google.com/books?id=V...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
 

efreysson

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What class of society does she come from? You mentioned musician a little later but is she part of the upper or middle class already? Where is she performing? If she's a lady of good breeding and proper upbringing then fencing seems like a fine Victorian martial art she would be likely to learn.

I see her family as hovering around the middle, but relations are strained and she mostly earns her own money playing in the rougher side of town. Her father DID cough up cash for the trainer after the... incident.

Teaching a young lady to fence for sport is what a reputable trainer would do. It's no great stretch that she'd think, "Gosh, if I took the blunted tip off of my rapier and sharpened it up a bit one could do an awful lot of harm!" No ethical instructor would consider telling her about this, unless you want them to be having some kind of affair.

I know about the women fencers. And while she isn't that high up on the social ladder, when things get serious she does reveal that her cane is in fact a sword cane. Special training or not, it is great against someone not equipped or expecting to deal with something like that. Though of course one has to have time to draw it.

Eastern martial arts are peculiar to the Orient and would not have had much penetration into Victorian society until right before Queen Victoria's death. Here is one example of something that did cross over, Bartitsu (est. 1898) https://breakingmuscle.com/learn/bartitsu-the-steampunk-mixed-martial-art As a happy coincidence, they accepted women into their training schools. Krav Maga, on the other hand, is a modern Israeli art and most definitely wouldn't be taught or known at that time.

I know about Bartitsu as well, and I intend to draw inspiration from it. But this is Victorian inspired, not historical fiction, so I feel free to fudge things here and there.

Social class was everything back then (and that hasn't changed much today). Fighting was for men

I was reading up on Victorian boxing, and apparently, in the days when it was an unregulated, informal bloodsport women would indeed square off in grudge matches. And unlike the men, the "rules" allowed for biting and scratching, and LIKE the men they typically fought barechested. Granted, these weren't proper ladies, more often prostitutes fighting over money, but still.


Ah, interesting. Thanks.
 

frimble3

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The idea is she sought out someone with practical experience, so the dude learned to fight on the streets and became good enough to make a living as a trainer, and sought after by people who don't mind his rough edge.
(snip)
She's a musician, playing in bars during the evening, so her daylight hours are free. And I'm thinking about average sized, with a hard edge after the mugging incident.
What kind of instrument (probably not relevant - aside from a delicate instrument would need more protection in a fight) and what kind of bars?
Watching bar-fights might give her an idea of how these things work, and provide her a way to meet a teacher. Because it's hard to imagine a young woman who plays in bars making enough to pay for an 'expensive' professional trainer, but could well meet a 'rough-edged' street-fighter who's willing to train her for a reasonable price. (Maybe he uses his well-off clients to subsidize lessons for people he wants to help?)

As I said, the trainer is an experienced street fighter, and so her training would be very no-nonsense and pragmatic.

One thing to keep in mind is that most 'attackers' don't have specific unarmed combat training either, and just the basics can give someone much better understanding of what to do in a fight. Someone relying on, "I'm bigger and stronger' when they throw a punch is going to be vulnerable to someone who just has the basics of 'deflect blow like so, leaving them open for counter-attack like this.'
And I imagine a thief who's assumed that a young woman would be an easy target would probably be taken aback if she showed any skills.

What class of society does she come from? You mentioned musician a little later but is she part of the upper or middle class already? Where is she performing? If she's a lady of good breeding and proper upbringing then fencing seems like a fine Victorian martial art she would be likely to learn.

Here are several pages about women fencing in Victorian, England:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/429953095649684571/
http://victorianfencingsociety.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-victorian-fencing-outfit.html
http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.com/2012/10/fencing-in-regency-england-could-woman.html
http://www.historyspinner.com/library/womens-fencing-keep-body-youthful/

Teaching a young lady to fence for sport is what a reputable trainer would do. It's no great stretch that she'd think, "Gosh, if I took the blunted tip off of my rapier and sharpened it up a bit one could do an awful lot of harm!" No ethical instructor would consider telling her about this, unless you want them to be having some kind of affair.

Eastern martial arts are peculiar to the Orient and would not have had much penetration into Victorian society until right before Queen Victoria's death. Here is one example of something that did cross over, Bartitsu (est. 1898) https://breakingmuscle.com/learn/bartitsu-the-steampunk-mixed-martial-art As a happy coincidence, they accepted women into their training schools. Krav Maga, on the other hand, is a modern Israeli art and most definitely wouldn't be taught or known at that time.

Social class was everything back then (and that hasn't changed much today). Fighting was for men and so I wonder where her escort was when she was mugged? Why didn't he step in to protect her honor? What ghastly ruffian would take more liberties than snatching a purse?

If she's of the lower classes then Heaven alone knows what they get up to. One could picture a fishwife or barmaid having a knife on hand and sticking it somewhere soft. Their lives are poor and desperate and they don't have the benefits of a proper upbringing in spite of all the decent Christian societies we found to better their lot. In fact, the less one has to do with them, the better.


======

I've talked around this a bit but I hope it's clear that class structure is important in giving an authentic ring to your Victorian-themed story. If you've got a young lady of no means who lives on the edges of society then she's not going to have money to pay for training. She can engage in the oldest profession to barter for some tips but really, having a knife and shoving it into someone seems likely for any number of professions in the lower classes.

Here is some more background detail that may be handy. The Illustrated London News from 1852. This is what people would have been reading at the time if they were literate. There are lots of neat engravings in there that give a slice-of-life view of Victorian London.

https://books.google.com/books?id=V...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
Agreeing with this, especially her background, and avoiding martial arts that wouldn't likely have been available to the MC at the time. Ninja skills, unlikely; hitting with a stick, very likely. And, what fencing student has never thought, "Boy, I'm one button away from really hurting someone. Hmmm."
 

Jason

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Sad to say, I know about the knee kick. I had taken some basic Tae Kwan Do way back in high school, and after work one day at the grocery, one of the other baggers came after me in the parking lot (we all usually cashed our paychecks at work). Back then I was tall and skinny - 6', 160lbs soaking wet.

He was about the same height but heavier and much stronger. On instinct, I backed up into a defensive pose and said "Leave me alone, I don't want to hurt you."

He laughed and swung. I ducked and kinda kicked half strength toward his leg. The yelp of a little girl came out, he collapsed and I ran to my car and went home, thinking he was faking it to try to get me closer for another punch. For some reason, after that I was pretty much left alone to do whatever I wanted.

He saw me a few days later in the hall, and I noticed he had a knee brace. He never made eye contact and kind of slunk/limped away from me. He was out for his junior and senior year of football too.

I felt horrible but was never able to find a chance to apologize in any meaningful way.
 
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Jason

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I seem to have taken the thread off on a tangent here with my guilty admission so apologies. The only point was that as someone with very little skill, and not even meaning to hurt anyone, I had the unfortunate experience of possibly ending someone's career with a kick to the knee.

As to the several people who messaged me privately to help assuage my sense of guilt, thank you. The guilt comes from having caused serious and possibly life-changing bodily harm to someone who may not have even really hurt me. All they wanted was my money. Did they really deserve to have their knee destroyed?

It also had to have been somewhat humiliating for a high school brawny guy like him to have to admit to his family and friends that some scrawny little new kid in town took him out so quickly and heartlessly walk away from it without even really thinking about it or even putting much effort.

Anyway, back on topic, the point is even a relative rookie could hurt someone with some essential defensive training. To become consistently adept though, I'd still standby my original statement that it'd take a few years. Just my $0.02 :)