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Toothpaste
06-03-2017, 09:51 PM
SO GOOD!!! I mean not without it's flaws but I can't think of a single superhero movie that's been perfect. It was so so good guys! I loved how charming it was. Diana was so sincere and so sweet and it's so lovely to have a non-cynical superhero (felt much the same way about Captain America). She also seriously kicks butt. The first scene where we see all the Amazons training together I actually started to tear up, it was so awesome to see all these powerful women looking so fierce and cool and ACK! I loved it.

The acting was altogether lovely, adored Gal, Chris and Lucy especially. Acts 1 and 2 were very strong, the third went into over the top CGI-ness, but honestly even then I appreciated it was at least grounded with humanity. Not total "I'm just watching a screen saver".

Also something that I noted on Facebook about Steve and Diana's relationship:

Watching how Steve admires and respects Diana, isn't threatened at all by her, but happy to work alongside her and many times happy for her to take the lead just shows me even more how silly a concept the notion of "emasculation" truly is. Because there is nothing weak or small about Steve. He comes across all the MORE strong for his support of her, for knowing there are times when she needs to take over. He comes across all the more confident and, quite honestly, attractive for it.

Now I understand that the concept of emasculation is one that is part of the whole toxic masculinity thing and so is a societal construct that many men have had to deal with even if they would rather not so I don't blame them for facing that struggle, but I do think this film shows why men (and even some women too) need to fight the notion hard. The more a man has no fear that somehow his masculinity is threatened by a woman, the more relaxed and I think at ease in his own life he can be. Further such ease is also really sexy to women, so it's truly a win win. I think.


Anyway yeah. Anyone else see it yet???

Zoombie
06-03-2017, 09:59 PM
I'm apparently the only person in the universe who didn't like it.

Marlys
06-03-2017, 10:24 PM
I'm apparently the only person in the universe who didn't like it.

Could you give a spoiler-free reason why not? Haven't seen it yet.

Zoombie
06-03-2017, 10:45 PM
Most of my reasons are kinda big spoilers, but in general...I felt like Dianna wasn't played like a fish out of water, but rather like a completely clueless person who has to constantly be talked down to by Chris Pine. The main antagonist was weak, the secondary antagonist was weak, and the central theme of the movie is completely undercut by depicting Germans as either faceless goons or cackling psychopaths.

The plot is full of dropped threads, and the other female characters in the movie are painfully underutilized to the point of being essentially non-existant.

Toothpaste
06-03-2017, 11:01 PM
Most of my reasons are kinda big spoilers, but in general...I felt like Dianna wasn't played like a fish out of water, but rather like a completely clueless person who has to constantly be talked down to by Chris Pine. The main antagonist was weak, the secondary antagonist was weak, and the central theme of the movie is completely undercut by depicting Germans as either faceless goons or cackling psychopaths.

The plot is full of dropped threads, and the other female characters in the movie are painfully underutilized to the point of being essentially non-existant.


So hard to have this conversation without spoilers, lol :) . But I really disagree with the first statement, I thought there were a lot of times where Diana totally got the chance herself to "talk down to" Steve especially considering she basically convinces him to do everything she's asked of him, and it totally felt like fish out of water to me. That's one of the things I loved the best.

And I do actually agree the villains were the weakest part, but I guess for me the mechanics of plot just didn't matter to me that much. I have found the older I get and the more I realise that all stories have been told I am far more interested in characters and relationships than I am plot. That being said this is so a personal taste thing and coming at it from your perspective that makes a lot of sense to me (though I disagree a bit with the Germans, I thought they had enough scenes especially when it came to the peace talks etc that showed them as human, and there was that entire sequence at the end as well).

Also agree about how few women there were once we were in the "real" world, but I think that was actually part of the point. We are now in a world governed and all decisions made by men. It was one of the few times I've been actually okay with it. I would have liked way more Etta Candy though, I'm a big Lucy Davis fan.

Small Spoiler (ugh I can't seem to find a font colour that matches the grey this is very annoying):










(I also really liked the gender reversal of Pine trying to seduce the bad guy whereas usually you have the female sidekick doing that with the male baddy)

Zoombie
06-03-2017, 11:30 PM
I guess it just didn't click with me.

I am overjoyed that the movie's doing well fiscally, because the LAST thing we needed was another bullshit bullet point for sexist idiots to point to as a reason to not make female leading films.

Jan74
06-04-2017, 12:06 AM
My sister and I were just saying how her and I will have a girls night and rent this when it comes out on shaw on demand. (we could go to the theater but our theater has very limited wheel chair spots and it's not the most comfortable for her so we'll wait till we can rent)

Anyways she's a child from 1969 and I'm a 1974, so we have fond memories of being little kids and pretending to be wonder woman, she was our idol! It looks great and I love an over the top special affects kind of movie, like transformers, I loved them all!(Mark W. was my fave though)

Toothpaste
06-04-2017, 12:11 AM
I guess it just didn't click with me.

I am overjoyed that the movie's doing well fiscally, because the LAST thing we needed was another bullshit bullet point for sexist idiots to point to as a reason to not make female leading films.

And I totally get that. I mean I was stunned how much I did not enjoy the first GUARDIANS film (really enjoyed the second though) and it was similar, it just did not click with me. Tastes are so wondrous and varied :) .

And tell me about it. I hate that there's so much pressure on films like these as if they represent all of womankind, and I hope as we make more and more the pressure will be less and less. But it's SO GOOD to see it do so well right now. And a relief.

Aggy B.
06-04-2017, 04:06 AM
We went to see it this afternoon and I loved it. Cried, laughed, so many feels.

Pine was astounding as Trevor. (I'm used to the guy who gets hit in the head repeatedly so having someone who wasn't completely clueless and helpless was nice. Because heroes/heroines are never made better by simply surrounding them with folks who are weaker/stupider.)

And it was lovely and sooooo nice to have a heroine who isn't being rescued by a man because she's stupid. (And that's the thing about Diana, even when she's naive, she's not dumb.)

Will probably have to buy a copy to put next to Mad Max: Fury Road and Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

Chris P
06-04-2017, 04:09 AM
*jumping past the replies to avoid spoilers*

I've been following the news about how good it is. You've sold me. Gotta see it now.

PyriteFool
06-04-2017, 05:10 AM
I just saw it today. I too thoroughly enjoyed it (especially that trench sequence. It's in the trailers. Probably one of the best action sequences in a superhero film to date).

I will say I found the plot...a bit nonsensical at times. Like there were several head scratching "But why?" moments for me. And while I actually liked the villain, I agree the Germans as a whole got the short end of the stick in portrayal. They did at least use the WWI setting to their advantage. I was concerned that they wouldn't, but they did so it didn't turn out to be an issue for me.

But overall it was engaging, well acted, and visually lovely (except Act 3 but whatevs they had the emotions for the climax that's what counts). Loved Diana as a character, her arc was wonderful to see, and the supporting cast was fun. And yeah, I kind of got emotional watching Diana kick ass while the theme music was playing. Couldn't help it. I didn't even think I would get misty eyed it just kind of happened.

Final nitpicks: 1) Oh God please stop with the slow motion! 2) They never actually call her "Wonder Woman" and I found that a tiny bit irksome

angeliz2k
06-04-2017, 11:39 PM
I just got back from seeing it and really enjoyed it.

I will agree, there were some plot issues, such as how certain things were done so quickly. And I felt the third act would have been served much better by toning back the villain (spoilerish: if they'd kept him more or less as he first reveals himself, before he goes nuclear). However, I really enjoyed the arc and the theme (that you can't save the world by defeating one Big Bad). I enjoyed Chris Pine and Gal Gadot and felt like they pitched their interactions just right. The relationship came across as mutually respectful.

As someone who has studied WW1 and written a novel (most of which is) set during the war, I thought they used the setting well. They didn't ignore the fact that Diana would have been very much out of place there and then. They gave that fact some weight, not just a nod or two. I have to say, the portrayal of the Germans was a bit troubling. WW1 was not WW2; these were not Nazis, and yet that's largely how they come across. I did like the fact that the MacGuffin they chase was basically an amped us gas weapon, because WW1 saw the first use of gas in warfare. The overall feel was right, without being too bleak (it is still a super-hero movie, not a gritty war drama).

Overall, a very well-done movie. Not an all-time favorite, but a solid movie.

Cyia
06-04-2017, 11:47 PM
Haven't gotten to see it yet, but:


(I'm used to the guy who gets hit in the head repeatedly so having someone who wasn't completely clueless and helpless was nice. Because heroes/heroines are never made better by simply surrounding them with folks who are weaker/stupider.)

And it was lovely and sooooo nice to have a heroine who isn't being rescued by a man because she's stupid. (And that's the thing about Diana, even when she's naive, she's not dumb.)

... I think this is definitely the Furiosa Effect. Now that writers have a precedent to point to, they can say: "See, both characters can be strong and capable without one having to be a dunce. A duo can actually compliment each others' strengths."


They never actually call her "Wonder Woman" and I found that a tiny bit irksome

Not even "You are a wonder, woman?" Ugh!

(Had the same complaint with Battleship. It was a horrendous mess of a thing, but it could have AT LEAST had someone say "You sank my battleship" in a movie WHERE THEY WERE LITERALLY SINKING BATTLESHIPS.)

amergina
06-05-2017, 12:38 AM
I rather liked it. I kind of forgot it was a DC movie, to be honest, and kept waiting for Howard or Tony Stark to show up... oops. Wrong Universe.

I did think that Ares was a damned fool for using lightning on Diana. HELLO. She too is a child of Zeus! Which is kinda really picky, but there you go.

davidjgalloway
06-05-2017, 01:29 AM
Yes, it seems to follow most of the reviews--first two Acts lots of fun, last one...not so much. I found it enjoyable, and a relief that no cities were destroyed in the making (ugh).

I actually think the plot point you reference was not so successful. I LOVED the use of languages other than English, but then found that faltered in that scene, because are we supposed to believe that Steve is a fluent German speaker to convince the Doctor? C'mon--shades of Inglorious Basterds there, demonstrating that Hollywood ideas of fluency are never realistic.

I also thought it a bit odd that despite the locales, we never got a French or English member of the group. I know that's kind of arbitrary, but the variety of personages almost seemed too multi-national to be realistic.

I actually found that the biggest issue for me was WWII--what is Diana's role there? If she is shattered by the pain and suffering of WWI, WWII has got to be a punch in the gut. (I have no idea what sort of comic-canon there is for this, btw.)

So overall, pretty good. Justice League, though--eek. The trailer looked like a lot of smashing and breaking. Not very encouraging.

But going back to OP's comments on emasculation:


Now I understand that the concept of emasculation is one that is part of the whole toxic masculinity thing and so is a societal construct that many men have had to deal with even if they would rather not so I don't blame them for facing that struggle, but I do think this film shows why men (and even some women too) need to fight the notion hard. The more a man has no fear that somehow his masculinity is threatened by a woman, the more relaxed and I think at ease in his own life he can be. Further such ease is also really sexy to women, so it's truly a win win. I think.

This is interesting. I have never approached this as a concept, so I'm curious where you draw from. Especially because in examples I can think of, it's specifically one man emasculating another. Think of 1979's Dracula and the scene where the Count first comes to dinner: he proceeds to flirt with and then dance with Lucy in the presence of her fiance, and the nonverbal interplay is wonderful. Jonathan is threatened and intimidated (and shows this later in a comment that evening once the party is over) by the suave Count. This is what I think of in the definition "to deprive (a man) of his male role or identity," and therefore not requiring a woman to do this to a man necessarily.

Aggy B.
06-05-2017, 02:27 AM
Originally, Wonder Woman first appeared in WWII, not WWI. So, I'm not sure how they'll touch on that in movie canon. (Although, chances are they won't make a movie about her in WWII at this point.) I believe it was rumored that they chose to move it back because they were afraid folks would think it too similar to the Captain America origin film.

Have you really never seen the folks whining about how if a woman is strong and smart then what are the men supposed to do? There was a big stink about Mad Max: Fury Road because Furiosa and the other women were so present and active in the movie. Also for The Force Awakens. It's rooted in toxic ideas about gender roles, but it's more about women taking away the things we're used to seeing men doing and therefore making them seem weak in comparison because they are no longer dominant. (Even if they are still portrayed as equals.) What you are describing is more like a story-telling version of cuckolding - where a more charming/virile man interferes in a relationship.

RichardGarfinkle
06-05-2017, 03:38 AM
I really enjoyed it. I think it's the best solo superhero movie yet.

Alessandra Kelley
06-05-2017, 04:31 AM
Eeeeeeeeeee! :heart: :heart: :heart: :greenie

Agree with Richard. I don't think I've ever seen a better film centered on a single superhero.

Diana Hignutt
06-05-2017, 02:22 PM
It was magnificent.

KTC
06-05-2017, 04:17 PM
Loved it muchly. That is all.

Myrealana
06-05-2017, 05:35 PM
I was nervous as hell about this movie. The future of women heroes carrying their own movies SHOULDN'T ride on the success or failure of a single movie, but in many ways, it does.

So, I was pleased when I enjoyed this movie very much. Not in a "Well, if you let go of your previous ideas about the character" way that Man of Steel wasn't that bad, or in the "It had its moments, even if it was ultimately not good" way that BvS had, but in a "I want to see this again! This movie rocks!" way that Captain America: The First Avenger and Iron Man engendered the first time I saw them.

Myrealana
06-05-2017, 05:37 PM
Have you really never seen the folks whining about how if a woman is strong and smart then what are the men supposed to do?
My husband's answer to this question: "Um, hang out with them defeating bad guys together? How much better could it get?"

Frankie007
06-05-2017, 07:06 PM
i really enjoyed this movie. i'm not much of a DC fan. i was more...way way more into Marvel. Wonder Woman (and Raven from Teen Titans) were pretty much my only fav DC characters.
if i get asked or invited to see this movie....i'm gonna go see it again!
now i'm hoping that maybe the director of Wonder Woman could come over and direct the Dark Phoenix movie.

Alessandra Kelley
06-06-2017, 01:37 AM
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-wonder-woman-opens-historic-1005m-1010026

Opening weekend box office receipts were $103.1 million in the US, and a further $125.2 million in the rest of the world.

It's the highest opening weekend total ever for a woman director.

Chasing the Horizon
06-06-2017, 02:40 AM
Most of my reasons are kinda big spoilers, but in general...I felt like Dianna wasn't played like a fish out of water, but rather like a completely clueless person who has to constantly be talked down to by Chris Pine. The main antagonist was weak, the secondary antagonist was weak, and the central theme of the movie is completely undercut by depicting Germans as either faceless goons or cackling psychopaths.

The plot is full of dropped threads, and the other female characters in the movie are painfully underutilized to the point of being essentially non-existant.
I've been going back and forth on whether I want to see this in theaters and everything Zoombie just said was pretty much why I was afraid I wouldn't like it, especially Wonder Woman being clueless and the Germans being faceless pure villains, both of which I was seeing in the trailers. Of course, trailers can be very misleading (the trailers for Curse of the Black Pearl made it look like a stupid kid-oriented movie, and it ended up being my favorite movie of all time), so I've been hesitant to make my choice just based on them. I've also been worried that way too much time might be spent on her struggling against sexism, as this is something that has often bothered me in other historical/fantasy movies and books. I know it's realistic, but frankly I watch movies and read to ESCAPE that aspect of reality.

Anyway, I'm still on the fence about seeing Wonder Woman in theaters, since it's certainly the kind of movie I would regret not having seen on the big screen if I see it later and really like it. So could Zoombie or someone else who has seen the movie possibly post or PM me some of the spoiler details that are being left out of the thread? I don't enjoy movies any less for knowing what will happen, and knowing the details would probably let me make up my mind.

Alessandra Kelley
06-06-2017, 02:57 AM
I've been going back and forth on whether I want to see this in theaters and everything Zoombie just said was pretty much why I was afraid I wouldn't like it, especially Wonder Woman being clueless and the Germans being faceless pure villains, both of which I was seeing in the trailers. Of course, trailers can be very misleading (the trailers for Curse of the Black Pearl made it look like a stupid kid-oriented movie, and it ended up being my favorite movie of all time), so I've been hesitant to make my choice just based on them. I've also been worried that way too much time might be spent on her struggling against sexism, as this is something that has often bothered me in other historical/fantasy movies and books. I know it's realistic, but frankly I watch movies and read to ESCAPE that aspect of reality.

Anyway, I'm still on the fence about seeing Wonder Woman in theaters, since it's certainly the kind of movie I would regret not having seen on the big screen if I see it later and really like it. So could Zoombie or someone else who has seen the movie possibly post or PM me some of the spoiler details that are being left out of the thread? I don't enjoy movies any less for knowing what will happen, and knowing the details would probably let me make up my mind.

She does not spend her time struggling against sexism. At all.

That's not to say it isn't there, of course. She deals with it very well.

amergina
06-06-2017, 04:16 AM
I don't think she was clueless. I think she was gobsmacked by how foolish and selfish so many men in "the real world" were.

Which I totally, totally get. Right with you there, Diana.

Marlys
06-06-2017, 04:49 AM
Saw it today, and loved it. I also didn't find Diana clueless, and thought Gal Gadot was terrific.

My husband and son didn't like it as much as I did, so I'll probably go alone when I see it again. Wish there were women's screenings in my town.

kevinwaynewilliams
06-06-2017, 04:59 AM
This was the first Wonder Woman property of any kind that didn't make me smile for all the wrong reasons. Kept me entertained, and I don't feel like I wasted my nine bucks. I won't climb on the "best superhero movie of all time" bandwagon, though. That third act was horrendous, the naivete was irksome, and the reactions to her by those she met were underplayed. I will echo the general sentiment that many here have expressed: there's no reason at all to think this movie had to be perfect in order to demonstrate a market for female superhero movies. After all, there were only two good Batman movies (Batman:The Movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060153) and The Lego Batman Movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060153)) and I suspect that there will be four or five more of those made before I die.

Toothpaste
06-06-2017, 05:06 AM
I'm with all the others, I really feel that she isn't clueless at all. Is she a bit naive, yes, but she isn't stupid. She just lacks certain social graces that quite frankly ARE rather illogical when you think about it. And while she might be clueless about "modern" times, she has more information when it comes to Ares and combat and generally helping people. So it's quite an equal balance of strengths. She also isn't cynical, which in general is shocking to people these days but can be extra so in war times. Not cynical isn't clueless, however, though I see why some people do think they can be one and the same. Also there is refreshing little after school special struggling against sexism. Yes in the "real" world the guys are shocked by her, but they get over quick and just think she's awesome. One of the most empowering things I found in the film was how while there still were the mores of the time, people generally seemed ready to accept her. Heck I was shocked how little people cared that one of the main baddies was female.

Now. I will give you this: the bad guys are the weakest part of the film. But to my mind this really isn't about the bad guys. It's more about her, her growth as a character, and about hope in the world. What is also odd to me is while, okay the germans could have had a much more complex presence in the film, they weren't all evil. There's a whole thing about a peace treaty and the german officials are working on it as much as the English are. The bad guys are yes German (and honestly could have been better wrought, I'm still waiting for another really good comic book baddie, feels like it's been ages - I can only think of Ledger's Joker and Loki who have been really great) But they so aren't the point. It's about good people doing the right thing, about people banding together, about life not being black and white. And some very fine comedy as well. And of course some serious butt kicking.

From everything you've said I think you'll actually be pleasantly surprised. You'll enjoy acts 1 and 2, and be a bit let down in the third. But some of the visuals . . . you really ought to see them on the big screen.

Zoombie
06-06-2017, 06:03 AM
See, I'm starting to question my own brains, so don't no one use my own concerns as an excuse to not see this movie.

But, like, I thought Wonder Woman in the film wasn't clever or intelligent or badass enough to fit my mental image of Wonder Woman. And I'm wondering if I'm...I don't know...remembering badly?

Alessandra Kelley
06-06-2017, 06:07 AM
See, I'm starting to question my own brains, so don't no one use my own concerns as an excuse to not see this movie.

But, like, I thought Wonder Woman in the film wasn't clever or intelligent or badass enough to fit my mental image of Wonder Woman. And I'm wondering if I'm...I don't know...remembering badly?

You don't have to like it. It doesn't have to work for you. It's okay.

Zoombie
06-06-2017, 06:08 AM
But literally everyone, else - people who all agree with my opinions most of the time, from critics to friends, all like it!

This is bothering me more as a consistancy thing than anything else.

...it might just be like The Arrival all over again.

Alessandra Kelley
06-06-2017, 06:15 AM
But literally everyone, else - people who all agree with my opinions most of the time, from critics to friends, all like it!

This is bothering me more as a consistancy thing than anything else.

...it might just be like The Arrival all over again.

It might just be one of those quirks of personal taste. It does not mean you are in error.

Cyia
06-06-2017, 06:27 AM
But literally everyone, else - people who all agree with my opinions most of the time, from critics to friends, all like it!

This is bothering me more as a consistancy thing than anything else.

...it might just be like The Arrival all over again.

Do you and your friends have the same foundational history with the character? Maybe they've read different story arcs from you, or don't have an extensive background to compare the film to.

Toothpaste
06-06-2017, 07:12 AM
Oh Zoombie please don't feel obligated to like it and stuff. Everyone has their own personal connections to things, things that speak to us and don't. As I said back in previous posts, I've just given up on plots these days, I just don't personally care anymore. What I want is character development and charm. Charm to me is HUGE. I feel so many things lack that these days. So for me this film was more about that when for others it's about the kickbutt stuff, or the thematic stuff etc. We all have our personal focus.

As far WW's qualities, I don't have a relationship with the comics so I can't compare, that makes it easier for me. Further since this was her first foray into the real world it made sense she was still figuring things out. Compare her to BvS where she is slick and quick and all knowing and outwits Bruce, it's clear that over the last hundred years she's grown and become more grounded. I also have a MASSIVE soft spot with the whole fish out of water - it's what I loved best about Thor too - so I have a huge bias that way.

Mostly though, watching the women fight at the beginning, and then watching her in No Man's Land and then in the village after . . . that was a level of badassery that I think is hard to match. But I understand if people are far more used to her being bad ass more consistently it could feel like not enough.

Anyway . . . ugh . . . sorry I do go on . . . my point is taste is taste. Every piece of art speaks to us differently which is why it's awesome. If you ever feel so inclined maybe see it again now having experienced it and knowing what to expect, I find that helps me a lot sometimes especially with material I know well. The first screening actually kind of sucks because I'm watching to see what they will include and what they won't etc. I sit there all nervous almost. But don't feel pressure to do so if you don't want to. There are so many other wonderful movies out there to experience. :)

katiemac
06-06-2017, 11:38 AM
I couldn't tell you the last time I actually cared about a movie character, especially a comic book one. Rarely is there character development. But Diana and Steve cared about each other, and I found myself caring about them. I do not do romantic comedies and I roll my eyes when romantic interests are shoe-horned into movies unnecessarily, but damn it if I am not all in for these two. Charm was off the charts and the little details between them made this movie for me.

I think a big sell here too is that it wasn't an origin story, not really. She comes Wonder Woman fully-formed, so she's new to the world but not herself.

Once!
06-06-2017, 12:24 PM
The consensus opinion from me and my 16 year old son - it was pretty good. Not perfect but a damn sight better than other DC superhero movies.

The positives? A mostly coherent plot, fairly believable characters (although Chris Pine does accept the mythological aspects a little too quickly), some stunning action scenes, good music. All in all, intelligent and enjoyable. It sets the franchise up for sequels.

The negatives? Not many. The plot borrows heavily from the first Captain America movie. The final boss fight does drag a little. As Diana is basically a god we don't know what her limits are or how she can be killed. There are some clicheed moments, such as the "innocent in a big city" scene which borrows heavily from Tarzan, Crocodile Dundee and many others.

But it works. We don't expect perfect cinema from a superhero movie. Recommended.

Diana Hignutt
06-06-2017, 02:22 PM
My only problem with the film was something that almost all comic book films do for the most part: the third act CG Monster Battle with the Big Bad. Outside of Nolan, only the Captain America films have avoided this.

angeliz2k
06-06-2017, 04:24 PM
My only problem with the film was something that almost all comic book films do for the most part: the third act CG Monster Battle with the Big Bad. Outside of Nolan, only the Captain America films have avoided this.

That was my biggest issue, too. If it were a different kind of movie, I think they could have nixed Ares entirely, and the devastating conclusion is that there was no Ares, that it was all just mankind being terrible to one another. I mean, that's *somewhat* close to what it is now, since Ares says that he really didn't do more than whisper in the ear of mankind. Which made me think, why not just nix him? I know, I know, the rest of the film is full of Amazons and gods and stuff, but still . . .

SWest
06-06-2017, 10:07 PM
:Hail::Hail::Hail: Patty Jenkins

Noizchild
06-06-2017, 10:07 PM
I'm going to see Wonder Woman today.

Zoombie
06-06-2017, 10:35 PM
I was going to say that I really hope that the family of Erich Ludendorff didn't mind seeing his, uh, portrayal in this movie...but then I remembered that Ludendorff, like most of the generals during WWI, was basically a mass murderer by neglicance, so I stopped caring!

Chasing the Horizon
06-06-2017, 11:44 PM
As I said back in previous posts, I've just given up on plots these days, I just don't personally care anymore. What I want is character development and charm. Charm to me is HUGE. I feel so many things lack that these days. So for me this film was more about that when for others it's about the kickbutt stuff, or the thematic stuff etc. We all have our personal focus.
Charm, characters, and action sequences are everything to me too. And humor. Humor within non-comedy movies is huge to me, and maybe the only thing all my top ten favorite movies have in common. Plot, meh, I don’t even pay that much attention to it in books, much less movies (no wonder I have issues with my own plots, really).

Thanks to everyone for taking time to explain more about the tone of the movie and assure me it wasn’t going to drive me nuts with too much time spent on sexism. I don’t have any previous knowledge of Wonder Woman (unless you count having a poster of her my dad gave me when I was little because I thought she looked cool), so at least I won’t have those expectations bothering me. I will go see the movie next week. The worst that can happen is Zoombie ends up feeling less alone, lol.

angeliz2k
06-07-2017, 12:12 AM
I was going to say that I really hope that the family of Erich Ludendorff didn't mind seeing his, uh, portrayal in this movie...but then I remembered that Ludendorff, like most of the generals during WWI, was basically a mass murderer by neglicance, so I stopped caring!

Well, there's a difference between being a bad general and being basically a genocidal maniac. When they said the name Ludendorff, I was like, "Wait, that was a real person . . ." BTW, that real person died in the '30's, not during the war (and he wasn't killed by Wonder Woman!). I'm a little puzzled as to why they used a real person's name when it doesn't fit at all with the real person it and might be viewed, uh, not so favorably by any surviving family (if there is any).

Maggie Maxwell
06-07-2017, 07:19 AM
How I described this movie to my husband afterwards:

It's not perfect, but it's everything I wanted it to be. And I think that sums it up fairly well.

Aggy B.
06-07-2017, 05:49 PM
Well, there's a difference between being a bad general and being basically a genocidal maniac. When they said the name Ludendorff, I was like, "Wait, that was a real person . . ." BTW, that real person died in the '30's, not during the war (and he wasn't killed by Wonder Woman!). I'm a little puzzled as to why they used a real person's name when it doesn't fit at all with the real person it and might be viewed, uh, not so favorably by any surviving family (if there is any).

He appears to be someone who did go on to be a Nazi (in the proper sense) after the war, so perhaps they felt he was a natural choice for a Nazi-like villain and would help tie the story to history as an alternate version. He also appears to have been anti-peace and pro-war industry. So... it's not a huge stretch to have named this character after him.

angeliz2k
06-07-2017, 06:46 PM
He appears to be someone who did go on to be a Nazi (in the proper sense) after the war, so perhaps they felt he was a natural choice for a Nazi-like villain and would help tie the story to history as an alternate version. He also appears to have been anti-peace and pro-war industry. So... it's not a huge stretch to have named this character after him.

Fair enough. But he *did* go on, meaning he *did* survive past 1918. They could have given the character any name in the world . . . An odd choice, I thought, to name him after a real person who doesn't fit with the fictional character basically at all (except for his being a general and an evil ass-butt).

Aggy B.
06-07-2017, 08:07 PM
Fair enough. But he *did* go on, meaning he *did* survive past 1918. They could have given the character any name in the world . . . An odd choice, I thought, to name him after a real person who doesn't fit with the fictional character basically at all (except for his being a general and an evil ass-butt).

Yeah. But I'm pretty sure Captain America never actually punched Hitler either. ;)

DC and Marvel both went through previous plots that were "alternate" history so they used real people, but obviously not-real history. Which is what it felt like here, for me. If Diana were a real person she *might* have killed Ludendorff. (Of course, a friend also pointed out that WW would also have likely killed Truman for dropping the bombs on Japan too. But, of course, that wouldn't happen for another 20+ years.) But it's fictional so real history figures die fictional deaths. ;)

Zoombie
06-07-2017, 09:34 PM
Yeah. But I'm pretty sure Captain America never actually punched Hitler either. ;)


...to be fair, he didn't in the movie either. (He punches an actor wearing a Hitler costume in a USO show.)

Laer Carroll
06-07-2017, 09:46 PM
Everyone is going to have different likes and dislikes. For me I loved the third act, am quite happy for it to be effects heavy. The CGI was well-done to my taste. More, it showed Diana evolving into a demi-goddess, a superhuman, who in later years could face off against Superman pretty much on an equal basis. It wouldn't have worked for me, however, if the first parts of the movie hadn't shown Diana growing as a person. She was still human as well as a superhuman.

I saw it twice and have pre-ordered the Blu-ray disc.

The first time was Thursday night in a regular theater because I'm leery of 3D. The house was full but with stadium seating and a considerate audience, so the crowding wasn't a problem.

The second time was Tuesday morning in a 3D theater. If the 3D wasn't to my taste, I was willing to walk out and write off the premium price as the cost of a learning experience. However, the 3D was neither overdone nor underused, and I quickly forgot the effect and again became immersed in the story. (I do recommend seeing any 3D movie on an IMAX screen as I did, because IMAX is bright enough to counteract the darkness 3D tends to give to images.)

Now I'm curious to see what threats Diana is going to have to deal with in the sequel. I can't see that another world war movie would work very well.

Aggy B.
06-07-2017, 09:59 PM
...to be fair, he didn't in the movie either. (He punches an actor wearing a Hitler costume in a USO show.)

Well, I was thinking more of the comics. Both Wonder Woman and Captain America fought a *lot* of Nazis and did things that weren't a reflection of our history in the early comics. Because, yanno, they exist in a different version of Earth. (Well, two separate versions of not-our-Earth, since they are from different universes/publishers.) But, my recollection is, that used to be a pretty common thing with the early comic books is that they would reference stuff that seemed like it was so very similar to our world, except the superhero would be there making things right.

Diana Hignutt
06-07-2017, 10:32 PM
Now I'm curious to see what threats Diana is going to have to deal with in the sequel.

Cheetah, I would assume, as I can't even think of any other WW villains.

Noizchild
06-08-2017, 07:54 AM
Saw Wonder Woman and loved it. DC actually managed to get it right with their movies this time. Who's going to see the Justice League?

Jade Rothwell
06-08-2017, 03:34 PM
Saw Wonder Woman and loved it. DC actually managed to get it right with their movies this time. Who's going to see the Justice League?

I am! I'm really excited to see Cyborg. I loved him in Teen Titans. of course, he's probably going to nothing like the version I know

Alessandra Kelley
06-08-2017, 06:08 PM
Saw Wonder Woman and loved it. DC actually managed to get it right with their movies this time. Who's going to see the Justice League?

Not I.

DC is not a monolith, and the people who made Wonder Woman are not the same as the people who are making Justice League.

The people making Justice League are the ones responsible for the execrable Superman and the awful Batman who will be characters in the film. They have histories of superhero group movies that sideline and objectify female characters (Hello, Black Widow. Hello, my daughter yelling in frustration "Give the spear to Wonder Woman! She's right there!").

It may turn out well anyway. In that case I will probably take a look. But I'm not all eager to see it just because Wonder Woman will be present.

Aggy B.
06-08-2017, 06:23 PM
Wonder Woman is the first superhero film I've seen in the theater since Batman Begins. I don't have a lot of interest in the rest of them. (Although I have caught a few on TV or via Netflix.) And it's not because I dislike action scenes or superheros, but watching female characters sidelined will ruin a film for me. Every. Fucking. Time.

Rumor is they might redo some of Justice League to increase Wonder Woman's role now that her solo film is such a hit, but that may not be enough to make up for the trailer which shows her falling on her ass and being rescued by Batman.

nighttimer
06-08-2017, 08:04 PM
Saw Wonder Woman and loved it. DC actually managed to get it right with their movies this time. Who's going to see the Justice League?

I am very interested in seeing Wonder Woman. I have as much interest in seeing Justice League as I have in seeing Captain Underpants and that's no interest at all.

When we only getting one or two superhero movies a year it was easy to choose which one was worth purchasing a ticket for and which was worth passing on. In 2017, we have Logan, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man: Homecoming, Thor: Ragnarok, The Lego Batman Movie, Justice League and oh yeah, Captain Underpants.

I'm a fan of superhero movies, but I'm not an addict. Wonder Woman looked great. Justice League doesn't. You gotta pick what looks like a real winner and what smells like a sure loser.

katiemac
06-08-2017, 09:30 PM
Not I.

DC is not a monolith, and the people who made Wonder Woman are not the same as the people who are making Justice League.


Well, that's not really true. DC is a monolith and there's a huge crossover of people involved in Justice League who also made Wonder Woman. The biggest WW influencer who is not involved in JL is Patty Jenkins, and she's said she was given a lot of autonomy to make this film. I believe she's a huge part of this film's success but to ignore the crossover in producers and screenwriters isn't realistic.

But even JL is slowly breaking away from MoS and BvS. With Joss Whedon taking over post production and (scheduled, normal) reshoots for Zack Snyder, there are changes in the works for this entire franchise. It doesn't mean we're getting a different JL movie than what Zack made but we're slowly getting new people (like Patty Jenkins) putting their stamp on Zack's vision for the franchise.

Zoombie
06-09-2017, 12:46 AM
I'm still going to wait for the reviews of JL, all things considered.

Aggy B.
06-09-2017, 12:59 AM
I'm still going to wait for the reviews of JL, all things considered.

I do appreciate that they got around a lot of the Aquaman "hate" by casting Jason Momoa. Definite appeal to female-gaze. (Even though not every woman finds him attractive, obviously.)

nighttimer
06-09-2017, 01:08 AM
I'm still going to wait for the reviews of JL, all things considered.

All things considered, didn't you say the same thing about Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Just Awful? :e2tomato: How'd that work out for ya?

Zoombie
06-09-2017, 04:16 AM
I do appreciate that they got around a lot of the Aquaman "hate" by casting Jason Momoa. Definite appeal to female-gaze. (Even though not every woman finds him attractive, obviously.)

I am officially sick of people making fun of Aquaman. The dude controls most of the planet, is super-strong, and has kraken at his disposal. I've said this before, but I will say it again!


All things considered, didn't you say the same thing about Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Just Awful? :e2tomato: How'd that work out for ya?

Quite well - every critic I saw savaged the movie with vicious talons of word-hate. I avoided it and have never been happier!

Beanie5
06-09-2017, 04:21 AM
Sorry sub-mariner is way coolrer

Aggy B.
06-09-2017, 04:31 AM
I am officially sick of people making fun of Aquaman. The dude controls most of the planet, is super-strong, and has kraken at his disposal. I've said this before, but I will say it again!


Haha. I'm not familiar enough with the character to say. I just know he's a common target to make fun of. And when they were first starting to talk about Justice League I was talking another author and he was like "Well, it'll have Aquaman. I don't know about that. He's not really a favorite character for a lot of folks." And I said, "But he's being played by Jason Momoa." And his eyes got really big and he was like "Oh, wow. That's smart."

(Interesting too, because I had not too long before read an article that talked about male vs female gaze in comics that argued that Aquaman has always been more female gaze oriented.)

I'll also add that even folks I know who really disliked BvS said the "directors cut/extended edition" was actually much better because there were a number of sequences that had been edited for the theater in such a way it left out key details. (Like "How did that character get from here to there?" or "Why didn't he stop that thing?") It didn't make up for the new slant on the characters, but it made the movie plot more cohesive. So... egh. Directors/screenwriters really need to learn how to write and direct something at feature length (120 minutes) or fight to have all of it put in theaters because they keep shooting too long and then presenting truncated versions that don't hold up.

Noizchild
06-09-2017, 06:02 AM
I heard that Aquaman can't act.

nighttimer
06-09-2017, 09:10 PM
I am officially sick of people making fun of Aquaman. The dude controls most of the planet, is super-strong, and has kraken at his disposal. I've said this before, but I will say it again!

You can keep saying it, but Aquaman won't stop being lame (http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-137-aquaman-super-friends-justice-league/) and no matter how hard DC tries to turn him into a bad ass, he's still the only Super Friend who was more useless than Gleek.

Henry Cavill looks something like Superman. Ben Affleck looks something like Batman. Gal Gadot looks something like Wonder Woman, but Jason Momoa looks nothing like Aquaman.

That is not an accident.



Quite well - every critic I saw savaged the movie with vicious talons of word-hate. I avoided it and have never been happier!

I can dig it. During a free HBO preview, I watched some of Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor/Evil Mark Zuckerberg shtick and I said, "Check, please."

Granny's Peach Tea, my ass (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgFaInkaRjI). :e2moon:


I heard that Aquaman can't act.

As long as he can swim, take off his shirt, flex his pecs, and talk to his finny friends, it won't matter. :e2shrug:

Myrealana
06-09-2017, 09:22 PM
I heard that Aquaman can't act.
He can speak Dothraki.

Aggy B.
06-09-2017, 09:28 PM
Actually, he does look like Aquaman (http://imgur.com/wjQEatQ), just not the short haired version of him.

Myrealana
06-09-2017, 09:54 PM
Whenever I think of Aquaman, it's the one from the Justice League cartoons who cut off his own hand to save his son.

Zoombie
06-09-2017, 10:31 PM
You can keep saying it, but Aquaman won't stop being lame (http://comicsalliance.com/ask-chris-137-aquaman-super-friends-justice-league/) and no matter how hard DC tries to turn him into a bad ass, he's still the only Super Friend who was more useless than Gleek.

Henry Cavill looks something like Superman. Ben Affleck looks something like Batman. Gal Gadot looks something like Wonder Woman, but Jason Momoa looks nothing like Aquaman.

That is not an accident.


I dunno, I'd argue Cavil stopped looking like Superman when he snapped Zod's neck and didn't give a shit about collateral damage and comitted genocide, all within the same 20 minutes.

And if that doesn't really underline one of the main reasons why WW succeeded, nothing else would.

For all of my problems, I will say that they at least got the BASIC FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS of Dianna's character down.

Noizchild
06-10-2017, 06:47 AM
I'm on the fence with Justice League. After Wonder Woman, I took a selfie with the poster.

Laer Carroll
06-11-2017, 10:27 PM
The more superhero movies come out the more selective we get, or at least me. I've no interest in seeing the coming Avengers duology, for instance. JL, only slightly; will wait for the cheap DVD from RedBox. (I will NOT listen to critics as some say they do. I care what I think, not what someone else does.)

WW 2, def looking forward to it.

Noizchild
06-12-2017, 05:10 AM
Wonder Woman is still making that money.

Aggy B.
06-12-2017, 05:41 AM
Wonder Woman is still making that money.

Yup. Lowest ever second week drop for a superhero film. (And that includes ensemble films, not just the single hero/origin story films.)

Alessandra Kelley
06-12-2017, 06:23 AM
Wonder Woman is still making that money.


Yup. Lowest ever second week drop for a superhero film. (And that includes ensemble films, not just the single hero/origin story films.)

Oopsie.

Looks like Warner Brothers didn't have enough faith in Wonder Woman to sign up director Patty Jenkins for a two-movie contract. (http://www.businessinsider.com/patty-jenkins-wonder-woman-sequel-negotiations-2017-6)

Now that the movie is doing very well and people are clamoring for a sequel, Ms. Jenkins is in a very good negotiating position for a second film.

Go women directors!

Zoombie
06-12-2017, 07:00 AM
I say this, from the depths of my heart...

TAKE. THOSE. CORPORATE. ROBOTS. FOR. EVERY. THING. THEY. HAVE.

Putputt
06-12-2017, 10:11 AM
Watched it yesterday with Mr. Putt. I really enjoyed it. I can't even describe how I felt watching a female superhero who... *deep breath* IS NOT HYPER-SEXUALIZED, THANK YOU UNIVERSE, FINALLY. The male gaze has always been at the core of my uneasiness towards female superheroes...yeah, Black Widow's awesome and strong and whatnot, but I've always felt that she was created and packaged for men to jerk off to instead of for girls to look up to. Gadot was incredibly beautiful, but despite the tight-fitting outfit, there was no gratuitous cleavage or butt cheeks hanging out or anything. She was just...gorgeous in a way that didn't objectify her. FEELINGS. I HAVE THEM.

After the movie, I pointed this out to Mr. Putt, and he said, "Oh. Good point. I didn't actually notice that...which made me think...why bother with the whole "male gaze" thing? It's not really a selling point for a movie. I don't think men think, 'Ooh, female superhero movie, yeah I'll go to see that for the sexiness.' If men want to be titillated, they can always watch porn. It's so readily available now. And given the male gaze is something which is so harmful towards women, why bother with it?" Why indeed.

Aaanywho, yea, the movie isn't without its flaws, but it's a huge win for women, and I'm so happy it's out there and it's doing well.

Jade Rothwell
06-12-2017, 04:51 PM
Oopsie.

Looks like Warner Brothers didn't have enough faith in Wonder Woman to sign up director Patty Jenkins for a two-movie contract. (http://www.businessinsider.com/patty-jenkins-wonder-woman-sequel-negotiations-2017-6)

Now that the movie is doing very well and people are clamoring for a sequel, Ms. Jenkins is in a very good negotiating position for a second film.

Go women directors!

damn, good for her!


Watched it yesterday with Mr. Putt. I really enjoyed it. I can't even describe how I felt watching a female superhero who... *deep breath* IS NOT HYPER-SEXUALIZED, THANK YOU UNIVERSE, FINALLY.

god, agreed. there wasn't a single boobs-and-butt pose. her armour was good to fight it, aesthetically pleasing, and strong.

Noizchild
06-13-2017, 07:28 AM
Oopsie.

Looks like Warner Brothers didn't have enough faith in Wonder Woman to sign up director Patty Jenkins for a two-movie contract. (http://www.businessinsider.com/patty-jenkins-wonder-woman-sequel-negotiations-2017-6)

Now that the movie is doing very well and people are clamoring for a sequel, Ms. Jenkins is in a very good negotiating position for a second film.

Go women directors!

It took a woman to finally get a DC movie right.

autumnleaf
06-13-2017, 04:01 PM
Saw an interview with Patty Jenkins about casting the Amazon women. Except for Diana's mother and aunt, she cast athletes, and it shows. Those women are strong and muscled; their outfits show some skin but that's practical for their lifestyle; and many of them are middle-aged (but still fit). I think that's a result of having a female director; not saying a male director would necessarily have gone for waif-y young actresses with boob-displaying armor, but it would've been more likely and that beach fight scene would not have been half so amazing.

On a completely different note, I have a theory that Steve Trevor's mother was a German immigrant (common in 19th century America), and that's why he speaks German fluently enough to pass in their army.

cooeedownunder
06-14-2017, 06:40 AM
I don't think I have to say who my favourite heroine of all time is. I really need to go and see it.

Noizchild
06-14-2017, 07:15 AM
Wonder Woman is still making that money.

Roxxsmom
06-14-2017, 07:42 AM
Yup. Lowest ever second week drop for a superhero film. (And that includes ensemble films, not just the single hero/origin story films.)

My husband and I went to see it today, and we were surprised at how full the theater was on a tuesday afternoon showing. We gave up on going to the big local theater that does assigned seating, because there weren't any decent seats left online, even a few hours before. We went to a less fancy theater, and it was still pretty crowded with a line at the ticket office. Granted, school is just out this week for many in our area, but in general, even very popular movies are pretty empty by the second week.

We enjoyed it. It was imperfect but quite entertaining, and I enjoyed the way the characters related to each other. Folks are right that there were too few women present, besides Diane, Etta and Dr. Poison (who wasn't terribly well developed, though--warning spoilers--this article (https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/13/15792508/elena-anaya-patty-jenkins-wonder-woman-villain-dr-maru-poison-secret-origin) gives more insight), in the second part of the film, but that served as a contrast of the world Diana was coming from. Perhaps it would have been good if they'd shown how the military might have been very male dominated in WWI, but women actually stepped in and did many of the civilian jobs men had mostly done before.

Anyway, I'm glad that they finally made a WW movie, and I'm glad it's doing well at the box office and proving all the doubters wrong. It's sad that so many eggs are in so few baskets when it comes to the future of female-led movies, but that seems to be where we are right now.

Cyia
06-15-2017, 04:19 AM
Finally got to see it (in XD 3-D, which is basically knock-off IMAX).
It was a good movie. I think it desperately wanted to be Capt. America: the First Avenger, but didn’t quite hit that level, mainly because the camaraderie wasn’t as strong between the WW version of the Howling Commandos. There was definite backstory glossed over (most apparent in Charlie’s night terrors and his sudden return to singing, which would have been more impactful if we knew where and he was referencing in the dream, and if we knew he’d been a bad but happy singer who had lost his songs.)

It’s awesome to note, however that “Chief” is actually speaking Blackfoot and introduces himself as the trickster god/spirit, which WW acknowledges as a simple: “And I’m Diana.” I’d love to see a background short on his character to see if he was being serious or testing her knowledge of language.

The battle with the Germans on the beach was stunningly choreographed (though lacking in an explanation as to what happened to the gun ship), but my real complaint is the reveal of “the big bad” at the end. Thewlis is a wonderful actor, and few people can do sophisticated slimy / villain as well, however, he’s not a physically intimidating person. He has neither the build nor the swagger to play anything other than a “Littlefinger” kind of baddie.

They missed a real opportunity to turn the movie on its head by revealing Dr. Poison as Ares (or his sister Eris) instead. Making the seeming puppet, especially one presented as weak / disabled, the ultimate mastermind / goddess of war would have been a great turn. There was even a point during the conversation with Steve at the gala that made such a turn a possibility. Poison’s personality changed, becoming more forceful when she saw him staring at Diana. Having her be Ares would also explain the super-soldier gas that never really had a point. Her facial scars (assumed to be caused by her trade) could have been the result of Zeus’ lightning bolts. And with Diana being sculpted from clay, the use of the clay mask on her face could have been especially poignant.

The other option I would have loved to have seen played out would have been if Thewlis’ Ares took the form of Antiope for the final battle instead of the CGI-heavy armored stuff. Seeing Diana forced to square off between some form of the woman she’d looked up to, the woman whose crown she was wearing, and the woman she would hesitate to wound after the incident with the gauntlets would have been a more satisfying fight. They could have turned him back into Thewlis for the final blows.

It was good. Don’t get me wrong. But it could have been so much more.

LittlePinto
06-15-2017, 04:21 AM
I thought it was pretty good. The story was decidedly average, but the acting made up for it.

I don't think it's quite as much of a step forward as has been claimed though. I noticed that through most of the second and into the thirds acts, Wonder Woman played second fiddle to Trevor. He was the one making the majority of the choices that drove the story forward. Her choices were far more reactive. I also noticed that her arc completion was dependent on her relationship with him. So, a man is still at the core of a film that's supposed to be about a woman.

I'm suspicious this tag-teaming was part of the reason for the script's weakness. The writers may not have been consciously trying to have two leads, but they ended up with that, which meant they didn't have enough screentime to develop their antagonists.

Noizchild
06-15-2017, 06:19 AM
I thought it was pretty good. The story was decidedly average, but the acting made up for it.

I don't think it's quite as much of a step forward as has been claimed though. I noticed that through most of the second and into the thirds acts, Wonder Woman played second fiddle to Trevor. He was the one making the majority of the choices that drove the story forward. Her choices were far more reactive. I also noticed that her arc completion was dependent on her relationship with him. So, a man is still at the core of a film that's supposed to be about a woman.

I'm suspicious this tag-teaming was part of the reason for the script's weakness. The writers may not have been consciously trying to have two leads, but they ended up with that, which meant they didn't have enough screentime to develop their antagonists.

It felt good that they decided to go to WWI instead of modern day.

LittlePinto
06-15-2017, 07:14 AM
It felt good that they decided to go to WWI instead of modern day.

I'm a bit ambivalent about the choice to go with WWI. I feel like the horror of the Western Front was reduced to set dressing, which doesn't quite sit right with me. I suspect they would've had the same problem with any historic or current war, however.

Keithy
06-15-2017, 03:09 PM
I am a big WW fan but feel very disappointed by the movie plot and the ridiculous bad-guy/WW fight at the end. Also, couldn't someone have told WW that the Germans were human beings (not bad-guy cannon fodder) too? She might not have killed so many. And, again, we had this ridiculous "swords/shields and arrows are better than rifles and cannon fire" cliche. They're not, otherwise we'd all still be using them.

I liked the middle part once they left the island and arrived in Britain and I liked some of the action scenes.

But I won't be buying this on DVD. Only a few movies get that seal of approval from me.

Keithy
06-15-2017, 03:10 PM
I'm a bit ambivalent about the choice to go with WWI. I feel like the horror of the Western Front was reduced to set dressing, which doesn't quite sit right with me. I suspect they would've had the same problem with any historic or current war, however.

If you know anything at all about WWI you'd know that each "trench" has more than one line of defence.

And why does nobody ever shoot at her feet? Or from behind? Good luck deflecting those.

LittlePinto
06-15-2017, 04:32 PM
If you know anything at all about WWI you'd know that each "trench" has more than one line of defence.

And why does nobody ever shoot at her feet? Or from behind? Good luck deflecting those.

Ah, I know quite a bit about WWI. That's why I'm uncomfortable with how it was used in the film.

Frankie007
06-15-2017, 05:31 PM
I am a big WW fan but feel very disappointed by the movie plot and the ridiculous bad-guy/WW fight at the end. Also, couldn't someone have told WW that the Germans were human beings (not bad-guy cannon fodder) too? She might not have killed so many. And, again, we had this ridiculous "swords/shields and arrows are better than rifles and cannon fire" cliche. They're not, otherwise we'd all still be using them.

I liked the middle part once they left the island and arrived in Britain and I liked some of the action scenes.

But I won't be buying this on DVD. Only a few movies get that seal of approval from me.

i'm very picky about adding to my DVD collection as well....but WW is getting in. i still remember the first DVD to begin my collection....which was Sixth Sense....LOL

katiemac
06-16-2017, 05:18 AM
And why does nobody ever shoot at her feet? Or from behind? Good luck deflecting those.

She's shot at from behind a few times in the alley scene, and at least one bullet bounces off her back in the warehouse.

Noizchild
06-16-2017, 06:58 AM
I am a big WW fan but feel very disappointed by the movie plot and the ridiculous bad-guy/WW fight at the end. Also, couldn't someone have told WW that the Germans were human beings (not bad-guy cannon fodder) too? She might not have killed so many. And, again, we had this ridiculous "swords/shields and arrows are better than rifles and cannon fire" cliche. They're not, otherwise we'd all still be using them.

I liked the middle part once they left the island and arrived in Britain and I liked some of the action scenes.

But I won't be buying this on DVD. Only a few movies get that seal of approval from me.

It wasn't too bad. B vs. S was a disappointment from what I hear. And DC hadn't have a good movie track record until now.

autumnleaf
06-16-2017, 03:02 PM
I adore this video, "Me After Watching Wonder Woman" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-A3Yk82GKc

I liked that Steve had his own story arc, and think it worked well with Diana's story -- as she was learning about the complexities of "Man's World" from him, he learned about the value of idealism from her. It helped that the actors had great chemistry together. Although it does point out how wasted the (usually female) love interests are. Why introduce Jane Foster as a super-smart scientist, reduce her to damsel in distress, and then write her out of the subsequent Thor movies? The closest female equivalent we have to Steve Trevor is Peggy Carter from Captain America, and she had to wait for her own TV series to show her full badassery.

Aggy B.
06-16-2017, 03:45 PM
For those that are interested in what sort of a hot mess we could have had Whedon's WW MS has surfaced and here's a Twitter thread about it (https://twitter.com/_sashayed/status/875485223399587840). There is also, I think, a link in that thread to the blog with the script in its entirety.

It's certain that Jenkin's film has some flaws. And it's pretty easy to go through and second guess how they might have done certain things better. But looking at Whedon's script (which, obviously, was rejected) it's also clear how much work had to be done to get where we are if his ideas were indicative of the basic starting point.

Noizchild
06-17-2017, 07:12 AM
For those that are interested in what sort of a hot mess we could have had Whedon's WW MS has surfaced and here's a Twitter thread about it (https://twitter.com/_sashayed/status/875485223399587840). There is also, I think, a link in that thread to the blog with the script in its entirety.

It's certain that Jenkin's film has some flaws. And it's pretty easy to go through and second guess how they might have done certain things better. But looking at Whedon's script (which, obviously, was rejected) it's also clear how much work had to be done to get where we are if his ideas were indicative of the basic starting point.

I'm scared to read the whole time.

Roxxsmom
06-17-2017, 08:28 AM
For those that are interested in what sort of a hot mess we could have had Whedon's WW MS has surfaced and here's a Twitter thread about it (https://twitter.com/_sashayed/status/875485223399587840). There is also, I think, a link in that thread to the blog with the script in its entirety.

OMG, that's execrable. What in hell was he thinking? Just from the little bit I read it was clear he made the guy the protagonist, had a lot of male gaze moments built in, and had numerous world building fiascos regarding Amazon culture. So glad that never saw the light of day.


It wasn't too bad. B vs. S was a disappointment from what I hear. And DC hadn't have a good movie track record until now.

Weren't some of those Batman movies popular and well received?

Overall, though, they have less to work with than Marvel does. Aside from Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, all of the iconic superheroes that are known even to those of us who aren't part of the superhero/comic culture--X men, Capt. Marvel, Capt. America and the Avengers, Spiderman, Thor, the Hulk etc. I remember from my childhood are Marvel. Looking at the DC page, I don't know who most of these characters (http://www.dccomics.com/characters) even are. I have heard of Green Lantern and the Flash, but I never knew or cared enough about either to want to see their movies, even if they'd been really well received.

Aggy B.
06-17-2017, 03:21 PM
I have only looked at parts (via the Twitter thread) and read the opening dozen pages. Whedon has the Amazons refer to Steve as "it". There's a lot of aggressive posturing between Diana and Hephastia (the Antiope of his script). And there is so much mansplaining in the later pages - Steve lecturing Hippolyta, Steve lecturing Diana... just ugh.

I told a friend (who still works with scripts and films every day) that it reminded me a little of (William) Goldman's style of writing after Goldman had gotten successful enough he could just write his scripts however he wanted, only without a lot of the talent/charm that Goldman had. And he was like "Yeah. It does."

katiemac
06-17-2017, 10:29 PM
Here's what I'll say about that script: there's no confirmation that it's Joss Whedon's. Now, I don't doubt that it actually is, but we don't know what stage of the process it is or who else may have touched the draft.

Chris P
06-17-2017, 10:40 PM
I finally saw it today. Nice work! I loved both Steve and Diana, the Ares twist was expected in that I figured it wouldn't be who we thought it was, but I was wrong about who it turned out to be. Diana's naivite was cute without making her a bimbo, the special effects weren't overdone, and there was enough mystery left over that sequels will seem continuations of her story rather than opportunistic do-agains.

The only thing that I noticed, one teeny little thing, inconsequential and didn't ruin it by any means, but I noticed, is that at the end the tanks the Germans are using were actually British Mark Vs. (Okay, so the Germans re-labeled captured British tanks, BUT STILL!)

Aggy B.
06-17-2017, 11:10 PM
Here's what I'll say about that script: there's no confirmation that it's Joss Whedon's. Now, I don't doubt that it actually is, but we don't know what stage of the process it is or who else may have touched the draft.

This is true. It does, however, have the watermark on it, which means it was just a practice draft. I can also see why folks think it is Whedon's. A lot of it reads like the way he tends to write dialog and seems like his bag as far as the action is concerned. And, given how much shit that script is getting, you would kind of think he would deny it was his script if it wasn't his work.

katiemac
06-18-2017, 12:41 AM
This is true. It does, however, have the watermark on it, which means it was just a practice draft. I can also see why folks think it is Whedon's. A lot of it reads like the way he tends to write dialog and seems like his bag as far as the action is concerned. And, given how much shit that script is getting, you would kind of think he would deny it was his script if it wasn't his work.

It's only been a topic of conversation for about 24 hours. I'm sure we'll hear from him if it goes on much longer or if the story gets bigger. Again, I'm not saying at all that I don't think it is his or that the script should be defended, but in general I'm a fan of downplaying any Internet finger pointing when the only truth is that we don't know a whole lot.

Aggy B.
06-18-2017, 01:22 AM
It's only been a topic of conversation for about 24 hours. I'm sure we'll hear from him if it goes on much longer or if the story gets bigger. Again, I'm not saying at all that I don't think it is his or that the script should be defended, but in general I'm a fan of downplaying any Internet finger pointing when the only truth is that we don't know a whole lot.

It was first published over a month ago and got minor attention then. It resurfaced again mid-week with multiple articles across soft news/geek sites (The Mary Sue, Daily Dot, etc). Plenty of time for him to have said "Hey. That's not actually my script." (Which doesn't mean he won't. It's possible they aren't saying anything because they thought if they responded it would blow up more quickly.)

cmhbob
06-18-2017, 02:54 AM
Saw it with one of my boys last night. Really enjoyed it. My disappointments were in some of the Chekov's Gun-like moments.

For example: Etta needed more development, I think. She's there for the "slavery" gag, the sword gag during the alley fight, the "Oh, I found him at the German High Command" moment, and at the end. I expected much more from her after the "run this from my office" line and was disappointed.

Likewise, I really wanted and expected more about Charlie. It's clear he's shaken, with the "He sees ghosts" scene, and the bell tower. But was the bell tower because of what Diana said to him about honor, or because of the ghosts? Were they from one battle, or all through the years?

In the setup for the gala, Steve and Sameer are driving into the castle and the camera focuses on the chairs being set up. Then nothing ever happens with the chairs. What was that all about?

Agree with ChrisP's comments about the movie. I also didn't feel like the second and third acts really dragged that much. I would have liked to have seen more of a connection between Diana and one of the Veld villagers; I think that would have made the later scene much more powerful.

Noizchild
06-18-2017, 06:48 AM
Saw it with one of my boys last night. Really enjoyed it. My disappointments were in some of the Chekov's Gun-like moments.

For example: Etta needed more development, I think. She's there for the "slavery" gag, the sword gag during the alley fight, the "Oh, I found him at the German High Command" moment, and at the end. I expected much more from her after the "run this from my office" line and was disappointed.

Likewise, I really wanted and expected more about Charlie. It's clear he's shaken, with the "He sees ghosts" scene, and the bell tower. But was the bell tower because of what Diana said to him about honor, or because of the ghosts? Were they from one battle, or all through the years?

In the setup for the gala, Steve and Sameer are driving into the castle and the camera focuses on the chairs being set up. Then nothing ever happens with the chairs. What was that all about?

Agree with ChrisP's comments about the movie. I also didn't feel like the second and third acts really dragged that much. I would have liked to have seen more of a connection between Diana and one of the Veld villagers; I think that would have made the later scene much more powerful.

Interesting thoughts.

Chris P
06-18-2017, 07:09 AM
Bob, I thought the chairs were so they could watch the shelling of the village, as mention was made earlier of a demonstration of the new gas. But you're right, it was set up and never followed through. That brings to mind something I thought was off in the final scenes with the bomber. There's all this exploding and stuff going on, and the Germans on the other side of the camp don't seem to notice. They're shooting at Steve and the others, but not reacting to the big stuff. Maybe mortals don't see what the gods are doing? Seems a stretch.

I too would like to know more about Charlie, and unfortunately he's not leading man material enough for any of the sequels to delve into what could be a great story. I did think the start was slow, all the way until they get to London, with some good bits but slow nonetheless. But great once it took off.

Sage
06-18-2017, 07:13 AM
When I saw the chairs being set up, I took it as a clue for us and for Steve that the Germans were planning to watch their weapon in use.

cmhbob
06-18-2017, 07:46 AM
When I saw the chairs being set up, I took it as a clue for us and for Steve that the Germans were planning to watch their weapon in use.

I was actually wondering at that point if Luddendorf and the doctor were going to poison everyone.

Noizchild
06-19-2017, 04:54 AM
I was actually wondering at that point if Luddendorf and the doctor were going to poison everyone.

Me too.

Max Vaehling
06-20-2017, 02:55 AM
Fiunally got to watch it. (Damn you, International licensing! Longest two weeks ever with all the avoiding of the internets and stuff...) I fully agree with most people here - the first 2/3rds weren't perfect but perfectly enjoyable for the charm, the humor and the sincerity.

The villains had the big issue of not being connected, personally, to any of the protagonists. Yes evil about to destroy millions, but that's the very definition of not personal.

The ending, though. It feels rushed, slapped on, and instead of further character development or an actual on-screen connection between Diana and Ares we just get lots of exposition lined into the bombast. Didn't work for me at all. And it would have been so easy to fix that I wonder if this wasn't the original ending:

After defeating Ludendorff and learning that this didn't end the war, she comes around to helping Steve put an end to the gas plot, accepting that while Ares may be behind this, he wasn't an actor in the war but more of a driving force behind it. And that people sometimes just suck. The war, then, is ended by the peace talks that now actually have a shot. We end on Sir Patrick/Ares, smiling and already plotting World War II (which, as we've all learned in history class, wass partly a result of World War I's fallout).

Seriously, all the elements needed for a good ending were already in place. My guess is that Zack Snyder said that's not enough of a splash and she neded to defeat Ares, too.

Max Vaehling
06-20-2017, 02:58 AM
I rather liked it. I kind of forgot it was a DC movie, to be honest, and kept waiting for Howard or Tony Stark to show up... oops. Wrong Universe.

Well, if you stayed for the end titles, there was actually a Steve Rogers in the, I think, carpentry department.

nighttimer
06-20-2017, 03:23 AM
Wonder Woman has super powers, bulletproof bracelets and a magic lasso, but there's one other thing she might need. A better agent. (http://www.cbr.com/gal-gadot-wonder-woman-pay/)

Since its theatrical release, Wonder Woman (http://www.cbr.com/tag/wonder-woman-film/) has continued to pass one box office milestone after another, including lassoing up over $500 million worldwide (http://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-passes-500-million-worldwide-box-office/) in its third weekend. However, despite being the DC Extended Universe’s most well-received film to date and surpassing numerous expectations (http://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-opening-weekend-projection/), one person who surprisingly might not see as much of the film’s riches reflected in her paycheck as she deserves is the star, herself: Gal Gadot.

Back in 2014, when Gadot first signed her three-picture deal with Warner Bros., Variety (https://variety.com/2014/film/news/wonder-woman-gal-gadot-signs-three-picture-deal-with-warner-bros-1201067961/) cited the Israeli entertainment show Good Evening with Gai Pines for confirming that Gadot would earn a mere (by Hollywood standards) $300,000 for each film – Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, Wonder Woman and this fall’s Justice League, though Gadot will surely earn more than what her contract initially stipulated — likely much more — after she receives any applicable bonuses based on Wonder Woman‘s success.


To be clear, this sort of pay rate isn’t entirely unheard of in the superhero blockbuster genre. Much like Gadot, Chris Evans also earned $300,000 for his first major franchise solo outing, Captain America: The First Avenger. On the other hand, Gadot’s Justice League co-star Henry Cavill managed to wrangle a cool $14 million for Man of Steel, as reported by Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickdesantis/2016/03/25/batman-v-superman-the-box-office-battle-decades-in-the-making/) in 2016, though that was presumably after a total after back-end bonusing.


Both Cavill and Gadot entered the DCEU with arguably the same level of star power, appearing in just a handful of major American motion pictures prior to being cast as Superman and Wonder Woman respectively. In fact, one could argue that Gadot was perhaps an even bigger name than Cavill at the time of her casting, having played the recurring role of Gisele in the wildly successful Fast &Furious franchise since 2009. While it’s hard to say exactly why these two actors of similar caliber were given such drastically different paydays for their solo films, one can’t help but point to the discrepancy as a symptom of Hollywood’s all too real gender pay gap.

Alessandra Kelley
06-20-2017, 05:41 AM
Well, if you stayed for the end titles, there was actually a Steve Rogers in the, I think, carpentry department.

My son spotted that. He was very excited.

Noizchild
06-20-2017, 07:45 AM
Cars 3 dethroned Wonder Woman.

Laer Carroll
06-20-2017, 10:16 AM
Cars 3 dethroned Wonder Woman.

Erh, yeah. Which is as expected when a movie on its 3rd weekend is compared to movie on its 1st weekend which is the sequel to a very popular film.

What is more significant is that WW only dropped about 30% in its 3rd weekend. Which means it likely will have a long life at theaters rather than quickly dropping off the charts. This is also significant since it suggests that it will have a substantial DVD and streaming life.

WW will also make a lot on merchandising, which is just getting ramped up because no one expected just how big WW turned out to be.

Roxxsmom
06-20-2017, 10:36 AM
WW will also make a lot on merchandising, which is just getting ramped up because no one expected just how big WW turned out to be.

That's interesting. So now they're scrambling to catch up with the action figures and so on.

I wonder if there will be a WW board game that neglects to include a playable Diana figure (the way they "forgot" to put Rey into the Force Awakens Star Wars game).

BenPanced
06-20-2017, 04:15 PM
But, hey. They're mopping up on the meal-replacement bar endorsements (https://www.themarysue.com/wonder-woman-wants-us-to-think-thin/?utm_content=buffer48cb5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer).

Zoombie
06-20-2017, 07:45 PM
That's interesting. So now they're scrambling to catch up with the action figures and so on.

I wonder if there will be a WW board game that neglects to include a playable Diana figure (the way they "forgot" to put Rey into the Force Awakens Star Wars game).

Who wants to bet they'll include Diana, but rather than having any other Amazon characters, it'll just be the all dude cast from the second and third act?

Alessandra Kelley
06-20-2017, 08:04 PM
But, hey. They're mopping up on the meal-replacement bar endorsements (https://www.themarysue.com/wonder-woman-wants-us-to-think-thin/?utm_content=buffer48cb5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer).

Blasphemous profanity about a beloved deity. That is beyond foul.

katiemac
06-20-2017, 11:10 PM
No, Gal Gadot isn't making 46 times less than Henry Cavil (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/06/gal-gadot-wonder-woman-salary)

Laer Carroll
06-21-2017, 12:24 AM
No, Gal Gadot isn't making 46 times less than Henry Cavil (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/06/gal-gadot-wonder-woman-salary)

Thanks for the info!



And why does nobody ever shoot at her feet? Or from behind? Good luck deflecting those.


She's shot at from behind a few times in the alley scene, and at least one bullet bounces off her back in the warehouse.

In the alley scene she's whirling in place and deflecting all the bullets with her bracelets, at least that's the way I saw it. In the warehouse scene the bullet hits her costume, which must be also be resistant to bullets if it shattered the way it was shown.

Still, she has all that bare flesh. Isn't that vulnerable? Else why would she bother using her shield to protect from bullets when she was fighting in No-Man's Land?

I suppose we (or at least I) have to just accept the movie/comics logic that we see in Star Wars and Guardians and so on, where the bad guys are incredible bad shots who never hit the good guys, and the good guys are incredibly good shots who never miss the bad guys. And we have to accept the costumes for the same reason.

Realistically, the costumes of comics superbeings are silly, put there to please teenage boys. But they are so rooted in the culture that making a movie about, say, Superman without his useless red cape would ensure the movie failed. Ditto Batman's costume, though there his cape is shown acting as a parawing.

The same is true of Wonder Woman's costume (who incidentally is wearing heel lifts in the later battle scenes if you look closely, as director Patty Jenkins mentions in an early interview). Even women fans of Diana who recognize her costume's voyeuristic roots would likely be upset to see much change in her costume.

I did have fun in writing a "Wonder Woman Rethought" novel which handles costumes more logically. (It is now in submission to a dozen agents.) In my version of my protagonist, on her 18th birthday she is reminded she's adopted, and told that her bioparents were from a far star. She gets gifts from them, including an invisible force-field spacesuit that protects her and lets her fly. The logo on her tee-shirt is of her favorite band, WingZ. Here she's shown testing the suit. (The image was reduced in size and stored on a server which conforms to AW's image display policy.)


https://laercarroll.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/anna-in-air-sunny-bkgnd-for-aw-2.jpg

Noizchild
06-21-2017, 06:20 AM
Give Wonder Woman more money!

Zoombie
06-21-2017, 11:15 AM
If I was superhumanly strong, could fly, and shoot lasers out of my eyes...well...you could take the cape from my cold dead hands?

autumnleaf
06-21-2017, 02:31 PM
Give Wonder Woman more money!

I'm sure she will in her next film. Just as Chris Evans did in his subsequent appearances as CaptainAmerica.

Sage
06-21-2017, 05:40 PM
In the alley, there were only a few shooters. It's not that they were bad shots, but that she was incredibly good at moving to defend herself and Steve. Bad guys who can't aim, miss the target. These would have hit the target, except that she was faster than a bullet.

In No Man's Land she's facing machine guns, sending out a barrage of bullets at a time. She knows she can't move fast enough to defend herself from that many bullets at once, thus shield.

nighttimer
06-21-2017, 11:03 PM
No, Gal Gadot isn't making 46 times less than Henry Cavil (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/06/gal-gadot-wonder-woman-salary)

What? The dishonest media gave me fake news? This is a witch hunt! This is very unfair to me. Very terrible. Sad! :rant:

Noizchild
06-22-2017, 09:40 AM
What? The dishonest media gave me fake news? This is a witch hunt! This is very unfair to me. Very terrible. Sad! :rant:
:roll:

Laer Carroll
06-23-2017, 08:36 PM
Just came across the following article in The Hollywood Reporter, titled "Why Patty Jenkins' 'Wonder Woman' Success Shouldn't Be Surprising." This especially resonated with me:


Jenkins also adroitly bonds the audience to her protagonists by making sure we understand where they came from. Much of Wonder Woman is dedicated to Diana’s origin story, so that by the time she’s striding alone into battle in No Man’s Land, we feel like we’ve grown up with her.

Exactly. She wasn't Wonder Woman, or just that. She was also Diana, someone I knew. A kid as much as a woman. Someone I cared about.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/why-patty-jenkins-wonder-woman-success-shouldnt-be-surprising-guest-column-1012050

cmhbob
06-24-2017, 05:46 AM
Interesting. That's one of the places I thought they could have spent more time on. There had to have been much more subterfuge and sneaking around for Antiope and Diana. I almost felt like it was kind of hand-waved away. Then again, while I grew up crushing on Linda Carter, I didn't pay much attention to the background story.

Noizchild
06-24-2017, 08:18 AM
I wrote a comic for a client where the boys of the Justice League couldn't beat the final boss of a game, but Wonder Woman did it in ten minutes.

Laer Carroll
06-28-2017, 08:19 PM
WW's box office dropped just 39% on its 4th week, more evidence that it has long legs.

Another part of the movie I liked was how Steve Trevor was portrayed. He was courageous and competent, but even more his self-worth wasn't lessened by knowing a woman who was supercompetent in some areas.

Jade Rothwell
06-28-2017, 10:41 PM
WW's box office dropped just 39% on its 4th week, more evidence that it has long legs.

Another part of the movie I liked was how Steve Trevor was portrayed. He was courageous and competent, but even more his self-worth wasn't lessened by knowing a woman who was supercompetent in some areas.

oh man, he was great! they were really sweet together his death was sad, but was great symbolically. a human died to teach her of humanity

Noizchild
06-29-2017, 06:23 AM
oh man, he was great! they were really sweet together his death was sad, but was great symbolically. a human died to teach her of humanity

But you kind of saw it coming for him.

Max Vaehling
06-30-2017, 09:21 PM
WW's box office dropped just 39% on its 4th week, more evidence that it has long legs.

Another part of the movie I liked was how Steve Trevor was portrayed. He was courageous and competent, but even more his self-worth wasn't lessened by knowing a woman who was supercompetent in some areas.

Yes! This always gets me when I see it in movies or shows. Used to be, women only got to lead because most of their supporting cast were dummies (or secretly the heroes, even worse). But taking second lead isn't a weakness, it's a strength. One that we guys aren't really that accustomed to and need to see more of.

Cyia
06-30-2017, 09:29 PM
Yes! This always gets me when I see it in movies or shows. Used to be, women only got to lead because most of their supporting cast were dummies (or secretly the heroes, even worse). But taking second lead isn't a weakness, it's a strength. One that we guys aren't really that accustomed to and need to see more of.

This is one thing I liked about the foxhole scene vs. the old men discussing the battle scene.

There was no gasping at Diana's presence or the way she was dressed. It was a bunch of battle-weary guys who'd been pinned down for over a year. They saw someone making headway and they ran for the opening. Who cares if it's a woman dressed in what wouldn't even be considered underwear for that time period? She's drawing fire for us - GO!

The men at headquarters with their cigars might hem and haw and make sour faces about the female in their presence, or doubt her contribution even when she's able to read what they can't, but the men getting shot at couldn't care less. She's deflecting bullets. She's giving them a shot at advancing. That's all that mattered, and thankfully, no one inserted a moment where one of them felt compelled to give her their coat to cover-up and be "appropriate."

Noizchild
07-01-2017, 07:26 AM
Yes! This always gets me when I see it in movies or shows. Used to be, women only got to lead because most of their supporting cast were dummies (or secretly the heroes, even worse). But taking second lead isn't a weakness, it's a strength. One that we guys aren't really that accustomed to and need to see more of.

I think I get what you are saying.

Laer Carroll
07-02-2017, 01:00 AM
At the end of the movie Diana is back in England. What will she do there? Where will she go next? The comics have rewritten her story so many times that just about anything is possible. What do you think?

Here are some possibilities I came up with.

She stays for a time in London, maybe with Etta Candy, Steve Trevor's secretary. Candy has been rewritten several times, making her more or less powerful and smart. In the movie she's just a secretary and sort of general manager of Steve's affairs. Steve is an American. Maybe has some trust fund or other money which makes that (maybe) more than a part-time job. She's put in charge of organizing the mission to the front that Diana and Steve go on. My guess is that Candy thus gets a start in some kind of secret agent job, maybe with MI6, maybe independently. So Candy can support Diana until she gets over the trauma of the war, gets a job herself, acclimates to Man's World, and makes some sort of life for herself.

Diana knows dozens of languages, some of them dead ones or at least obscure. So she could get a job as a translator, maybe for the government or a university. My best guess is the Louvre Museum, where's she's seen in the beginning of the movie. When she gets back on her feet she moves out to her own place, maybe near to her friend Candy. Eventually she gets restless, wants to see more of the world, sees problems she wants to get involved in. There were plenty in the years following the war. Maybe too many. In confusion and disgust maybe she just wants out, says a sad goodbye to Candy, and immigrates to America. There she visits Steve Trevor's family and shares with them some of her experiences with him.

Thanks to her Louvre connection, she gets a job there in a similar capacity. My favorite is New York's American Museum of Natural History, featured in the three Night at the Museum movies. It's across the street from Central Park, and two miles from Columbia University and Barnard College, which is co-located but was still separate from Columbia in Diana's time. It would be natural for Diana to enroll in courses there, or at least attend seminars. She couldn't help attracting a diverse entourage, including some non-students from nearby Harlem. The music from there and from Spanish Harlem would have attracted her and some of her entourage. She might have become a flapper, though viewing the role and life style with much amusement, given her alien origin and powers. Inevitably, she'd see injustices and fight them.

Wow! Lots of possibilities I couldn't help exploring in more detail than I'd intended. But there are so many more. What's your take?

CWatts
07-02-2017, 01:24 AM
Diana knows dozens of languages, some of them dead ones or at least obscure. So she could get a job as a translator, maybe for the government or a university. My best guess is the Louvre Museum, where's she's seen in the beginning of the movie. When she gets back on her feet she moves out to her own place, maybe near to her friend Candy. Eventually she gets restless, wants to see more of the world, sees problems she wants to get involved in. There were plenty in the years following the war. Maybe too many. In confusion and disgust maybe she just wants out, says a sad goodbye to Candy, and immigrates to America. There she visits Steve Trevor's family and shares with them some of her experiences with him.
....
Wow! Lots of possibilities I couldn't help exploring in more detail than I'd intended. But there are so many more. What's your take?

Considering the Greek gods exist(ed) in her universe and the WW1 setting, I love the idea of Diana going up against Cthulhu and the other Great Old Ones. If anyone can stay sane, she can.

Zoombie
07-02-2017, 01:44 AM
Fun fact!

In the DCU, the Thanagarians - the hawlike aliens whose numbers include Hawkgirl and Hawkman - created Nth metal, a special metal designed to fight their evil godlike rulers, The GREAT OLD ONES also known as...

IXTHULU!

*coughs* they...they weren't trying very hard to disguise their inspiration.

Noizchild
07-02-2017, 06:45 AM
At the end of the movie Diana is back in England. What will she do there? Where will she go next? The comics have rewritten her story so many times that just about anything is possible. What do you think?

Here are some possibilities I came up with.

She stays for a time in London, maybe with Etta Candy, Steve Trevor's secretary. Candy has been rewritten several times, making her more or less powerful and smart. In the movie she's just a secretary and sort of general manager of Steve's affairs. Steve is an American. Maybe has some trust fund or other money which makes that (maybe) more than a part-time job. She's put in charge of organizing the mission to the front that Diana and Steve go on. My guess is that Candy thus gets a start in some kind of secret agent job, maybe with MI6, maybe independently. So Candy can support Diana until she gets over the trauma of the war, gets a job herself, acclimates to Man's World, and makes some sort of life for herself.

Diana knows dozens of languages, some of them dead ones or at least obscure. So she could get a job as a translator, maybe for the government or a university. My best guess is the Louvre Museum, where's she's seen in the beginning of the movie. When she gets back on her feet she moves out to her own place, maybe near to her friend Candy. Eventually she gets restless, wants to see more of the world, sees problems she wants to get involved in. There were plenty in the years following the war. Maybe too many. In confusion and disgust maybe she just wants out, says a sad goodbye to Candy, and immigrates to America. There she visits Steve Trevor's family and shares with them some of her experiences with him.

Thanks to her Louvre connection, she gets a job there in a similar capacity. My favorite is New York's American Museum of Natural History, featured in the three Night at the Museum movies. It's across the street from Central Park, and two miles from Columbia University and Barnard College, which is co-located but was still separate from Columbia in Diana's time. It would be natural for Diana to enroll in courses there, or at least attend seminars. She couldn't help attracting a diverse entourage, including some non-students from nearby Harlem. The music from there and from Spanish Harlem would have attracted her and some of her entourage. She might have become a flapper, though viewing the role and life style with much amusement, given her alien origin and powers. Inevitably, she'd see injustices and fight them.

Wow! Lots of possibilities I couldn't help exploring in more detail than I'd intended. But there are so many more. What's your take?

There was that e-mail Bruce Wayne at the end.

Laer Carroll
07-03-2017, 08:16 PM
There was that e-mail Bruce Wayne at the end.
Interesting. Tell us more!

Noizchild
07-04-2017, 04:39 AM
Interesting. Tell us more!

It was during her end monologue.

Laer Carroll
07-06-2017, 09:13 PM
It was during her end monologue.

Erh, yeah, I got that. But I wanted to hear more about what you thought the note might mean.

Noizchild
07-08-2017, 07:39 AM
Erh, yeah, I got that. But I wanted to hear more about what you thought the note might mean.

The birth of the Justice League.

Laer Carroll
07-10-2017, 01:58 AM
From BoxOfficeMojo's weekend update (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4304&p=.htm).

"Warner's Wonder Woman (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=wonderwoman.htm) continues its impressive run, delivering an estimated $10.1 million as its domestic cume is now just shy of $370 million, making it the tenth largest superhero release domestically of all-time (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres/chart/?id=superhero.htm). Internationally it added an estimated $6.8 million to its total for a global tally topping $745 million."

Twick
07-10-2017, 07:48 PM
Yes! This always gets me when I see it in movies or shows. Used to be, women only got to lead because most of their supporting cast were dummies (or secretly the heroes, even worse). But taking second lead isn't a weakness, it's a strength. One that we guys aren't really that accustomed to and need to see more of.

I think that the casting was brilliant here. Chris Pine pulled off someone who was strong in his own right, not a male version of a damsel in distress, and had enough brains to realize that following Diana's lead helped him achieve his goals. He was attracted to her, but not to the extent of forgetting he was a warrior as well, and people's lives were depending on him.

It's odd in a way that the two recent movies that best showed men and women acting as comrades, not competitors, was this and Winter Soldier. Perhaps we have a lot to learn from comic books.

Noizchild
07-11-2017, 05:03 AM
I'm calling it right now: Wonder Woman, Get Out, and Hidden Figures will make Best of 2017 movies lists.

Twick
07-11-2017, 05:52 PM
Hidden Figures is technically a 2016 movie, which is why it figured (ha!) at this year's Oscars.

Noizchild
07-12-2017, 07:16 AM
Hidden Figures is technically a 2016 movie, which is why it figured (ha!) at this year's Oscars.

It came out in January in the US, though.

BenPanced
07-12-2017, 08:50 AM
It had limited released on December 25, 2016, and once it was eligible for Oscar nominations, it received wider North American release on January 6, 2017. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4846340/releaseinfo?ref_=ttspec_sa_2) To be eligible for a particular year's Academy Award nominations, a film must be released between midnight on January 1 until midnight at the end of December 31 in Los Angeles County and play for seven consecutive days (https://web.archive.org/web/20131110071910/http://www.oscars.org/awards/academyawards/rules/rule02.html); it was released just in time in 2016 to make it for the 2017 balloting and nominations.

Noizchild
07-13-2017, 07:18 AM
It had limited released on December 25, 2016, and once it was eligible for Oscar nominations, it received wider North American release on January 6, 2017. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4846340/releaseinfo?ref_=ttspec_sa_2) To be eligible for a particular year's Academy Award nominations, a film must be released between midnight on January 1 until midnight at the end of December 31 in Los Angeles County and play for seven consecutive days (https://web.archive.org/web/20131110071910/http://www.oscars.org/awards/academyawards/rules/rule02.html); it was released just in time in 2016 to make it for the 2017 balloting and nominations.

It still counts as 2017.

BenPanced
07-13-2017, 08:11 AM
:e2smack: Yeah, whatevs...

Twick
07-13-2017, 08:51 PM
I'm sorry, but Hidden Figures was already nominated as Best Picture (see https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/movies/oscars-2017-nominees-ballot.html). It can't be nominated for a second year. (If movies could be, I'd imagine the producers of La-La Land going "Next time's the charm!")

JJ Litke
07-13-2017, 09:01 PM
Hidden Figures was also nominated for a Hugo this year, 2017. Works are eligible for 2017 if they were published in the preceding calendar year, in this case, in 2016.

robeiae
07-13-2017, 10:30 PM
Just fyi--odd tangent--Hidden Figures made New Yorker's Best Movies of 2016 list (http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-best-movies-of-2016) (though at the bottom, #35). But it's not on Rotten Tomatoes' list, probably because RT lists it--wrongly--as a 2017 movie (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/hidden_figures).

Regardless, I don't see it topping any "Best of" lists. A good flick imo, but not great. Ditto for Wonder Woman. I liked Wonder Woman and so did my kids, but we agreed that a lot of that is due to just how much better it was than other recent DC flicks. GotG2 and Spidey are both far better, imo.

What I really didn't like about Wonder Woman was her being presented as a god/demi-god. And the end battle was just too BIG for me. Did the DC folks think she needed to be godlike to be able to be in the same league as Superman? I don't know. But in my mind, Wonder Woman was always akin to Captain America: fundamentally human, though with superior abilities (due to chemistry in Cap's case and genetics in WW's). And I didn't get that sense from the movie at all.

Noizchild
07-14-2017, 07:04 AM
Just fyi--odd tangent--Hidden Figures made New Yorker's Best Movies of 2016 list (http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-best-movies-of-2016) (though at the bottom, #35). But it's not on Rotten Tomatoes' list, probably because RT lists it--wrongly--as a 2017 movie (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/hidden_figures).

Regardless, I don't see it topping any "Best of" lists. A good flick imo, but not great. Ditto for Wonder Woman. I liked Wonder Woman and so did my kids, but we agreed that a lot of that is due to just how much better it was than other recent DC flicks. GotG2 and Spidey are both far better, imo.

What I really didn't like about Wonder Woman was her being presented as a god/demi-god. And the end battle was just too BIG for me. Did the DC folks think she needed to be godlike to be able to be in the same league as Superman? I don't know. But in my mind, Wonder Woman was always akin to Captain America: fundamentally human, though with superior abilities (due to chemistry in Cap's case and genetics in WW's). And I didn't get that sense from the movie at all.

Well, WW already made a best list for the first half of the year.

Laer Carroll
07-17-2017, 01:04 AM
BoxOfficeMojo (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/) is one of the best places for stats and news on movies. From their weekend update (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4306&p=.htm).

"Wonder Woma (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=wonderwoman.htm)n enjoyed the smallest drop (29.9%) in the top ten, finishing just outside the top five in the film's seventh week in release, delivering an estimated $6.9 million weekend. That puts the film's domestic total over $380 million as it inches closer to topping the domestic run of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=marvel17a.htm) ($386.5m)."



What I really didn't like about Wonder Woman was her being presented as a god/demi-god. And the end battle was just too BIG for me.


That, of course, is YOUR opinion. I thought it was just about perfect, and sets her up for the role she's usually portrayed in comics, as able to stand up to Superman.

ElaineA
07-17-2017, 01:59 AM
But in my mind, Wonder Woman was always akin to Captain America: fundamentally human, though with superior abilities (due to chemistry in Cap's case and genetics in WW's)

...Isn't genetics what makes her a demigod?

I always saw her as a supernatural figure, not just a human on the outlier range of abilities, from the Lynda Carter WW to Saturday morning's Super Friends. The Lasso of Truth always indicated to me that she wasn't a mere mortal. But then, I grew up with Bewitched, the Flying Nun and Mary Poppins as early influences, so I always found it easy to accept that people with supernatural powers can still be fundamentally human and vice versa.

Noizchild
07-17-2017, 06:47 AM
BoxOfficeMojo (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/) is one of the best places for stats and news on movies. From their weekend update (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=4306&p=.htm).

"Wonder Woma (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=daily&id=wonderwoman.htm)n enjoyed the smallest drop (29.9%) in the top ten, finishing just outside the top five in the film's seventh week in release, delivering an estimated $6.9 million weekend. That puts the film's domestic total over $380 million as it inches closer to topping the domestic run of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=marvel17a.htm) ($386.5m)."

Cars 3 was what took her down.

RichardGarfinkle
07-17-2017, 05:03 PM
...Isn't genetics what makes her a demigod?

I always saw her as a supernatural figure, not just a human on the outlier range of abilities, from the Lynda Carter WW to Saturday morning's Super Friends. The Lasso of Truth always indicated to me that she wasn't a mere mortal. But then, I grew up with Bewitched, the Flying Nun and Mary Poppins as early influences, so I always found it easy to accept that people with supernatural powers can still be fundamentally human and vice versa.

Canonically, Wonder Woman is a Golem. She was sculpted from clay and brought to life by the breath / power of the gods. It's why she is supernaturally more powerful than even the other amazons. In the movie, that's a story Hippolyta tells Diana to cover the fact that she's really a DemiGoddess birthed to destroy Ares. It's not really that different an origin.

Cyia
07-17-2017, 05:09 PM
And the end battle was just too BIG for me.

The scale didn't bother me; the way it was animated did. Also, Diana's sudden ability to throw lightning should have been established earlier, even if it was just an insert of her being hit by lightning or electricity at some point.

One also has to wonder how Zeus throwing Ares down with a bolt of lightning just left him stuck on earth, but the demi-deified daughter of Zeus can toss a bolt and kill him.

Aggy B.
07-17-2017, 06:42 PM
The scale didn't bother me; the way it was animated did. Also, Diana's sudden ability to throw lightning should have been established earlier, even if it was just an insert of her being hit by lightning or electricity at some point.

One also has to wonder how Zeus throwing Ares down with a bolt of lightning just left him stuck on earth, but the demi-deified daughter of Zeus can toss a bolt and kill him.

I would guess he's probably not actually dead this time either. (Of course, there is a recent comic book storyline in which Diana does successfully kill Ares, and then she takes his place as the God of War.)

robeiae
07-17-2017, 07:13 PM
That, of course, is YOUR opinion. I thought it was just about perfect, and sets her up for the role she's usually portrayed in comics, as able to stand up to Superman.That's fine, I clearly said it was what I didn't like about the movie. And I still liked the movie plenty, as I said. Far better then other recent DC efforts, imo.


...Isn't genetics what makes her a demigod?

I always saw her as a supernatural figure, not just a human on the outlier range of abilities, from the Lynda Carter WW to Saturday morning's Super Friends. The Lasso of Truth always indicated to me that she wasn't a mere mortal. But then, I grew up with Bewitched, the Flying Nun and Mary Poppins as early influences, so I always found it easy to accept that people with supernatural powers can still be fundamentally human and vice versa.
Well, I know her backstory--like that of so many other superheroes--has been occasionally changed. I guess maybe I'm stuck on my views as a product of the 70's, including the TV show, wherein Wonder Woman was a woman, an Amazonian princess with a lot of skills and a few special items (lasso, bracelets, invisible jet). She never seemed like a god at all. And indeed, in the TV show, she had a kid sister (played by Debra Winger).

Personally, I just like that idea more, even if it's not consistent with the current origin story (which is also the original origin story, right?). For me, it's what makes Batman cooler than Superman, what makes Cap and Iron Man cooler than Thor. YMMV. :)

ETA: And fyi, if you're made out of clay and a god breathes life into you, there are no genetics involved. :)

Laer Carroll
07-19-2017, 04:35 AM
…I know her backstory--like that of so many other superheroes--has been occasionally changed.


You're right about that! Over a half dozen times. There was even one where she lost her superpowers and had to fight baddies the way Batman did!



fyi, if you're made out of clay and a god breathes life into you, there are no genetics involved. :)

Quite right. Though some of us at the House of Secrets comic book store (http://www.artoffiction.com/HouseOfSecrets/) in Burbank that I frequent had a discussion of that when I dropped by recently to pick up my latest comics. (Sales of WW have picked up a lot since the movie came out, not surprisingly.)

I argued that she may have started out from clay but she ended up with a human body. I suggested that for her to function (eat, sleep, fight) she needed a human genetic base, so maybe Zeus gave her one, perhaps borrowing from one or more of the Amazons. That idea was met with approval.

But I didn't stop there and got myself in trouble by suggesting that the Greek gods might be aliens, maybe shipwrecked on Earth, maybe exiled to there. Maybe they were metahumans, but all too human in their childish and arrogant ways. So maybe Zeus used genes from himself and other gods and goddesses such as Aphrodite, Athena, Hercules, Hermes, etc.

I got booed for that. (Actually, aloud, though in friendly ways.) Now the rest of you can join in the symphony!

JJ Litke
07-19-2017, 05:07 AM
Well, I know her backstory--like that of so many other superheroes--has been occasionally changed. I guess maybe I'm stuck on my views as a product of the 70's, including the TV show, wherein Wonder Woman was a woman, an Amazonian princess with a lot of skills and a few special items (lasso, bracelets, invisible jet). She never seemed like a god at all. And indeed, in the TV show, she had a kid sister (played by Debra Winger).

That was my first real experience with Wonder Woman, too. The ice cream scene in the new movie was taken straight from the comics, but I immediately thought of the series, when Diana's little sister visited and was so obsessed with ice cream.

Laer Carroll
07-23-2017, 10:13 PM
From Hollywood Reporter box-office report (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-dunkirk-conquers-competition-505m-debut-valerian-bombs-1023700).


Warner Bros.' Wonder Woman has eclipsed Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 ($386 million) to become the top-grossing film of summer in North America and the second-biggest title of the year to date behind Beauty and the Beast with a total of $389 million. Wonder Woman's global haul stands at $779.4 million.

As I guessed: WW has legs!

Laer Carroll
08-04-2017, 03:09 AM
What I'd like to know is where Diana keeps her sword, shield, and costume when she's not using them? As when they are traveling to the war front, for instance.

Noizchild
08-04-2017, 11:19 PM
I saw somewhere asking if they had wished they had add the spin transformation in the movie. To me, it wouldn't first with the tone.

Luciferical
08-05-2017, 12:00 AM
As I guessed: WW has legs!

<Wolf Whistle>

Boy, does she ever!

OK, the newbie will go hide now.

Laer Carroll
08-25-2017, 08:23 PM
James Cameron said in a Guardian Interview: "All of the self-congratulatory back-patting Hollywood’s been doing over Wonder Woman has been so misguided. She’s an objectified icon, and it’s just male Hollywood doing the same old thing! ..."

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/aug/24/james-cameron-well-never-be-able-to-reproduce-the-shock-of-terminator-2

Wonder Woman director Patty Jenkins, among others, was unhappy about his remarks.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/aug/25/patty-jenkins-hits-back-at-james-cameron-criticism-of-wonder-woman

I have to wonder if he saw the movie. What he says is true of the comics portrayal of Diana. There she has big boobs and a beautiful face and a revealing costume. Which is true of most comics portrayals of women. If the suits aren't near-bathing-suits, they are so form-fitting they might as well have been painted on. The movie, however, is more restrained though it necessarily had to retain enough of the comics vision to satisfy fans that she was the Real Wonder Woman.

For what it's worth, here is my version of Wonder Woman formatted to AW's image standards. Her costume isn't far from what I often see here in sunny SoCal when I go out for a burger or to shop in the mall. Men as well as women dress pretty skimpily due to the heat, especially younger ones.


https://laercarroll.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/anna-in-air-sunny-bkgnd-for-aw-2.jpg

JJ Litke
08-25-2017, 09:40 PM
What a dumbassed thing to say. As if there's only one correct way for women to be strong. As if it's impossible for beautiful women to be powerful. He clearly doesn't understand what objectification really is--it's not about being beautiful or sexy, it's about being dehumanized. The movie didn't even come close to that line.

Frankly, his comments just show how much he mentally others women. In his mind, they have to fit a certain narrow stereotype in order to be strong.

Aggy B.
08-26-2017, 01:00 AM
Cameron, like Whedon, got a lot of credit for minimal effort and has then worn that into the ground. Trying only gets you so far. At some point you have to grow past the early efforts.

Noizchild
08-26-2017, 06:04 AM
Cameron's just mad because he didn't direct it himself.

Keithy
08-28-2017, 01:52 AM
What I'd like to know is where Diana keeps her sword, shield, and costume when she's not using them? As when they are traveling to the war front, for instance.

The best answer I can give is that they are stored in a pocket universe or dimension. This seems reasonable given that Themyscira itself is contained within one... hence it is difficult to find.

Keithy
08-28-2017, 01:58 AM
I saw somewhere asking if they had wished they had add the spin transformation in the movie. To me, it wouldn't first with the tone.

The spin transformation was only seen in the TV series.

But... I always wondered why nobody seemed concerned about someone apparently blowing up. These days such a thing would have different connotations.

Manuel Royal
08-28-2017, 02:16 AM
I would've loved to get rid of that tedious super-powered fight at the end. (Apparently having characters throw each other through buildings in ugly gray CGI is a DCEU signature now.) In fact, I would've dropped Ares from the story altogether, and have Diana realize that humans don't need any cosmic nudge to make them insanely warlike. (And yet have her still choose to see the good and fight for it.)

Couldn't be happier with the casting. Gal Gadot conveys not just the strength of the character, but her warmth and compassion. It takes more courage to care than not to care.

robeiae
08-28-2017, 02:43 AM
Or she just has an off-screen steamer trunk. Occam and all that.

Keithy
08-28-2017, 03:57 AM
I always thought the Debra Winger wonder girl (Drusilla, WW's younger sister) got the best fights, shame she only appeared in series 1.

Gawd, though, that fight at the end of the movie really spoiled it, it was just too long and too generic.

Laer Carroll
08-28-2017, 04:28 AM
I, on the other hand, thought the fight at the end was just perfect. Nothing anyone can say can persuade me otherwise, though it may persuade a poster that they have better taste than anyone else.

Different strokes for different folks!

Noizchild
08-28-2017, 06:13 AM
Someone on a podcast said that Ares should've been muscular. I think he was perfect the way he was.

Maggie Maxwell
08-28-2017, 04:26 PM
Someone on a podcast said that Ares should've been muscular. I think he was perfect the way he was.

I dunno, I couldn't see him as anything but Remus Lupin. And I didn't even really watch the HP movies all that hardcore. That said, I did like that Ares was the completely unassuming character, and less muscular makes sense if you view Ares are more general than warrior. It's been a long time since he had anyone to fight, after all.

RichardGarfinkle
08-28-2017, 04:46 PM
I dunno, I couldn't see him as anything but Remus Lupin. And I didn't even really watch the HP movies all that hardcore. That said, I did like that Ares was the completely unassuming character, and less muscular makes sense if you view Ares are more general than warrior. It's been a long time since he had anyone to fight, after all.

It fit the theme that War is not what you want to believe it is. The war was caused by bureaucrats, perpetuated by generals and scientists, but fought by soldiers (like Steve and his buddies), and suffered most by non-combatants (the people of the town they rescued).

The battle at the end was conventional, but the point of it was that defeating the God of War does not end the fighting. The superhuman conflict did not end the human conflict. Diana's human actions (and those of Steve and his buds) were at least as important as her divine ones. And Ares' divine actions were not the cause of nor the continuers of the war (that too was human).

The divine / superhero battle was a counterpoint to the human rather than a usurpation of it.

Luciferical
08-28-2017, 05:08 PM
[SPOILER!]

I have to say that what happened to that village was (for Hollywood) an incredibly brave plot point to put forth. Despite what's happening in the MCU story arc, Hollywood doesn't seem to want to confront death in the movies it produces and releases. Most especially in its "heroic" movies.

Wonder Woman able to go into the gas cloud and horror at what she found gave me a moment of her experiencing her power and yet not able to do anything about the horror around her.

It lent credibility to her crisis of faith.

Max Vaehling
08-28-2017, 07:47 PM
It fit the theme that War is not what you want to believe it is. The war was caused by bureaucrats, perpetuated by generals and scientists, but fought by soldiers (like Steve and his buddies), and suffered most by non-combatants (the people of the town they rescued).

The battle at the end was conventional, but the point of it was that defeating the God of War does not end the fighting...

Except that's exactly what happened. She defeats Ares and everybody (i.e. the German soldiers in the scene) stops fighting. To me, it completely defeats the point the movie had been making up to that point. I'd have preferred if all they did in the climax was to stop the plane and thus give the peace summit that was laready underway a real chance of success. Then leave it to people to sort everything out.

Laer Carroll
08-29-2017, 01:20 AM
...She defeats Ares and everybody (i.e. the German soldiers in the scene) stops fighting. To me, it completely defeats the point the movie had been making up to that point.

I disagree. To me, the defeat was clearly a temporary respite from the malign influence of Ares, which was only part of the causes of the war. That was Diana's sad realization, that war has human as well as superhuman causes.

Superheroes in the comics serve mostly to fight supervillains, leaving ordinary heroes to fight ordinary villains most of the time.

Max Vaehling
08-29-2017, 01:56 AM
Well, they could have made that clearer by, say, showing the war go on or at least not emphasizing the Germans at the scene putting their guns down so much. I agree that that's probably the point the movie wants to make, Diana more or less says as much in the voiceover and the story up until the beginning of the finale was going in that direction, but the finale itself doesn't show that. At all.

Noizchild
08-29-2017, 06:26 AM
I dunno, I couldn't see him as anything but Remus Lupin. And I didn't even really watch the HP movies all that hardcore. That said, I did like that Ares was the completely unassuming character, and less muscular makes sense if you view Ares are more general than warrior. It's been a long time since he had anyone to fight, after all.

Plus, didn't it creature surprise to who the true villain was? That's what made it perfect.

Laer Carroll
09-02-2017, 04:56 AM
Interesting YouTube video showing the changes in the Wonder Woman costume since she was introduced in the 1940s.


The Truth About Wonder Woman's Costume (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOfVJ_iR2N8)


She has usually been shown showing a lot of bare skin, which doesn't make sense practically. Women in combat typically armor up, as in this real fem soldier.

http://cdn-static.dagospia.com/img/foto/05-2012/soldatessa-americana-169485_tn.jpg


The Hunger Games movies were more realistic. Here's Jennifer Lawrence's outfit. Very practical; notice the pistol on her thigh in addition to her bow and arrows. Why she kept those we must speculate. Maybe she just felt more capable with a weapon she'd used since she was a kid.

Maybe it's part of her invincible image, needed to encourage followers. That could also be the reason she didn't wear a helmet, normally an idiotic move. Or maybe she prefers to sacrifice safety for being better able to sense the surrounding environment.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/55/84/63/5584631a6c90cfdbc012ca722238da81--hunger-games-series-hunger-games-mockingjay.jpg


A cop will usually wear her normal uniform, just adding a convenient weapon. For city wear a pistol and spare magazines. For open spaces with long shot lines she might want to add an M4 carbine or something similar. Even as light as they are (seven pounds loaded), M4s with extra magazines and shoulder strap weighs 10 pounds or more, heavy already and heavier the longer you carry it.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/d3/c9/6d/d3c96d6739f7e5d19b78b9afd5888185--tactical-equipment-tactical-gear.jpg


Superhero costume elements I'd do away with, along with lots of bare skin? High heels for women. Capes. Painted-on clothing. Garish colors.

Noizchild
09-02-2017, 06:32 AM
Nice. I'll have to look at it later.

Laer Carroll
09-06-2017, 04:53 AM
I've knocked comics for showing so much bare skin on their female heroines. (To be fair, men are objectified almost as much as women are in comics, with their painted-on skinsuits.) Then I committed the sin myself.

I just finished the first draft of an interior illustration for one of my books. In it my heroine is asked to help an old friend who's been captured by terrorists. The baddies are hiding in a jungle, so she shapechanges her skin to blend in with the greenery and dons green clothing and selects a rifle with a camouflage stock.

Why not cover up? Because her skin is as hard as rubber when struck by a knife or pistol bullet. Still has to avoid rifle and machine-gun bullets, partly by stealth and partly by having supersenses and a super-accurate aim.

Wonder Woman must have such tough skin, too, since we see her in the movie being struck by a bullet in the back and shrugging it off. Too, she gets thrown dozens of feet against buildings yet still jumps back into the fight. Obviously her insides are as tough as her outsides.

OK. I give up. Diana can wear a skimpy outfit and I won't complain anymore!

https://laercarroll.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/all-green-warrior-camo1-gun-shiny-skin-kneeling-2-copy-250-x-400.jpg

Noizchild
09-07-2017, 07:07 AM
I've knocked comics for showing so much bare skin on their female heroines. (To be fair, men are objectified almost as much as women are in comics, with their painted-on skinsuits.) Then I committed the sin myself.

I just finished the first draft of an interior illustration for one of my books. In it my heroine is asked to help an old friend who's been captured by terrorists. The baddies are hiding in a jungle, so she shapechanges her skin to blend in with the greenery and dons green clothing and selects a rifle with a camouflage stock.

Why not cover up? Because her skin is as hard as rubber when struck by a knife or pistol bullet. Still has to avoid rifle and machine-gun bullets, partly by stealth and partly by having supersenses and a super-accurate aim.

Wonder Woman must have such tough skin, too, since we see her in the movie being struck by a bullet in the back and shrugging it off. Too, she gets thrown dozens of feet against buildings yet still jumps back into the fight. Obviously her insides are as tough as her outsides.

OK. I give up. Diana can wear a skimpy outfit and I won't complain anymore!

https://laercarroll.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/all-green-warrior-camo1-gun-shiny-skin-kneeling-2-copy-250-x-400.jpg



I'm telling you, he's just mad because he didn't direct it himself.

Laer Carroll
09-07-2017, 08:36 PM
I'm telling you, he's just mad because he didn't direct it himself.

Erh. He who? Cameron? Me? Tom, Dick, or Harry?

Twick
09-07-2017, 08:54 PM
Superheroes, as opposed to military action figures like GI Joe, have never been about reasonable costumes. They're all about the visuals. And that means, for both men and women, that the characters usually exhibit a perfect physique (for whatever value of "perfect" is current). While men usually don't have to show a lot of skin, they're usually skin-tight.

Wonder Woman's costume is actually a pretty reasonable one to evoke the classic Greek warrior, who fought in the heat and didn't need cloth over his arms and legs, but used armor to protect the limbs while wearing a kilt to enable flexible movement. It should be pointed out that in some cultures male warriors went into battle wearing very little, or even nude, exchanging armour for speed and flexibility. Wonder Woman's costume does include arm protection (the bracelets and shield), leg protection (greaves) and head protection (the diadem). Certainly it's much reduced compared to a hoplite's armour, but as Noizchild points out, she's not a mere human. She doesn't need the same protective armour that a non-magical warrior would, so it makes a certain sense it's reduced in quantity.

Greek statues honoured the human form with nudity or semi-nudity without being exploitative. What I don't think is a major part of WW's costume is mere salacious appeal; at least not more than say, Captain America's or Superman's form-fitting outfits.

Noizchild
09-08-2017, 06:34 AM
Erh. He who? Cameron? Me? Tom, Dick, or Harry?

Cameron.

AielloJ1
09-08-2017, 07:50 PM
Some artist drew a bunch of male superheroes but posed like female superheroes often are in order to show the differences in how they are often portrayed, beyond costume. It was pretty interesting and completely unnatural lol.

Noizchild
09-09-2017, 05:26 AM
Some artist drew a bunch of male superheroes but posed like female superheroes often are in order to show the differences in how they are often portrayed, beyond costume. It was pretty interesting and completely unnatural lol.

Show us!

Aggy B.
09-09-2017, 05:52 AM
Show us!

This was probably one of the better known examples (https://i.pinimg.com/736x/a6/dc/d7/a6dcd78198960e7c0b9fc522810b4718.jpg). But I'm also familiar with this one (http://reelgirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/wonderwoman3.jpg). A Google search of "male superheroes in female poses" turns up more.
ETA: Also this (https://twitter.com/haarleyquin/status/876383140058726401/photo/1), more of a meme but I laughed myself silly the first time I saw it.

Noizchild
09-10-2017, 05:23 AM
Yikes!

Keithy
09-11-2017, 01:18 AM
I've knocked comics for showing so much bare skin on their female heroines. (To be fair, men are objectified almost as much as women are in comics, with their painted-on skinsuits.) Then I committed the sin myself.

Wonder Woman must have such tough skin, too, since we see her in the movie being struck by a bullet in the back and shrugging it off. Too, she gets thrown dozens of feet against buildings yet still jumps back into the fight. Obviously her insides are as tough as her outsides.

OK. I give up. Diana can wear a skimpy outfit and I won't complain anymore!


Yes, I've got a little tired of seeing all that flesh. It must be an age thing.

In the 2015 new 52 reboot she was covered up, it looked good, but didn't last long. Perhaps you need to check out Powergirl and her (cough) front ventilation panel which vanished in 2012 only to reappear soon after.

Regarding WW's skin, she does take damage just as anyone else does, but has much accelerated healing powers - but this does not apply when the wound is delivered by a god.

Noizchild
09-11-2017, 06:16 AM
I thought she looked fine.

Articulate Lady
09-16-2017, 06:15 PM
Well, since I am a newbie, and I read through this ENTIRE thread I am going to put my 45 cents in, yes that's right 45 cents! The movie, I loved. There were some teary-eyed moments, there were some silly "we don't really need this in the movie" moments, and that end battle was just as someone said, way TOO much, but I understand where they were going with it. But overall I LOVED the movie, especially Steve and Diana. They were an amazing pairing in the cast. Just what did happen in that cabin??? (For those of you who saw it, you know you wondered too).

As far as Cameron goes, he is just mad that he didn't get to direct "Titanic II - The Search for Rose's Giant Ass Print on the Door"

And since we are on costumes and merchandising, my wonderful soulmate knows how much I loved the movie so he bought me this doll, which clearly covers up all her "goods" and doesn't make her too naked. She has a cape in both the dolls I have (The Barbie from the 90s where they paid homage to the original Wonder Woman and the new movie one)

I think she didn't really show that much skin at all in the movie, and the scenes were done tastefully. I hope you guys like the pictures of my treasures!

https://i.imgur.com/n8l8cA3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oqXYuQB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UFDEesf.jpg

Noizchild
09-17-2017, 04:27 AM
My aunt has some Wonder Woman merch of her own.

Laer Carroll
09-18-2017, 03:29 AM
Variety just announced that Patty Jenkins has been signed to direct WW 2 (for a Dec 13th 2019 release). She gets oodles of money upfront & box office gross (better than BO net, which with studio accounting can be zero).

http://variety.com/2017/film/news/patty-jenkins-wonder-woman-sequel-director-1202548413/

Just as great is that Warner Bros put 300 drones over the Los Angeles night sky to announce the release of the Blu-ray disc. You can get it this Tuesday the 19th. It'll be at Target, Best-Buy, and other retailers. According to the review the disc has lots of extras.

https://batman-news.com/2017/09/17/wonder-woman-blu-ray-review/

Here is the video WB put out showing the display and how they went about it. Awesome!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUZv2T7zMBo

Noizchild
09-18-2017, 08:16 PM
Nice.

Twick
09-29-2017, 08:27 PM
James Cameron seems to be determined to mansplain feminism and why he feels Wonder Woman fails. Now Lynda Carter is taking him to task http://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/movies/news/lynda-carter-calls-out-james-cameron-over-his-thuggish-wonder-woman-criticism/ar-AAsAZoK?li=AAjnRI7&ocid=ientp.

I'm surprised Cameron doesn't know to when to step out of this particular argument. While he's created a couple of genuine female action heroes, it almost sounds as if he's resentful that a female director has done so as well.

Luciferical
09-29-2017, 08:41 PM
Good for Lynda Carter. But...

A little confused.

James Cameron seems to be determined to mansplain feminism and why he feels Wonder Woman fails.
Did I miss something? Has he continued to make remarks, or is this an additional response to the initial remarks cited upthread?

Twick
09-29-2017, 10:30 PM
He made a statement a couple of days ago "standing by" his comments.

Keithy
09-30-2017, 01:50 AM
Oh I do wish he'd shut up; he clearly does not understand the character. For one thing, this interpretation of her costume is quite restrained. Gal Gadot cannot help being attractive and does a reasonable job at looking like WW (would an overweight actress be better? I don't know the answer to that). In terms of being a feminist icon, that is a side issue; WW is a hero and her sex and appearance do not matter. She's a warrior. Who cares what she looks like? I have never seen her use her sex or sexuality to win battles, rather she uses her wits and strength.

Noizchild
09-30-2017, 04:26 AM
Oh I do wish he'd shut up; he clearly does not understand the character. For one thing, this interpretation of her costume is quite restrained. Gal Gadot cannot help being attractive and does a reasonable job at looking like WW (would an overweight actress be better? I don't know the answer to that). In terms of being a feminist icon, that is a side issue; WW is a hero and her sex and appearance do not matter. She's a warrior. Who cares what she looks like? I have never seen her use her sex or sexuality to win battles, rather she uses her wits and strength.

Relax, he's just mad because he didn't get to direct the movie.

Alessandra Kelley
10-02-2017, 01:09 AM
Good for Lynda Carter. But...

A little confused.

Did I miss something? Has he continued to make remarks, or is this an additional response to the initial remarks cited upthread?

It's new remarks.

Cameron got interviewed this week by the Hollywood Reporter which gave him another chance and he doubled down on his mansplaining of why the Wonder Woman movie is All Wrong, while throwing in, ahem, plugs for his new movie which he says gets it All Right.

Noizchild
10-02-2017, 08:25 AM
He's just being a hater. Ignore him.