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Laer Carroll
05-31-2017, 11:18 PM
What is it? What aspects of a post should be avoided?

AW Admin
05-31-2017, 11:30 PM
FAQ: The Absolute Write Dictionary (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?241878-FAQ-The-Absolute-Write-Dictionary) s.v. mansplaining

Ari Meermans
05-31-2017, 11:34 PM
heh. A couple of things come quickly to mind: 1.) Don't assume expertise, especially on a subject others are likely to know more about; 2.) Put thought into phrasing when presenting information we've come across. Does our delivery present the information as the final authority? Does it make it sound like we're that final authority? If so, revise and rewrite to be inclusive before hitting the "Post Quick Reply" button.

RedRajah
05-31-2017, 11:43 PM
The term "correctile dysfunction (http://www.tagthebird.com/us/users/SarahLerner)" may also be used.

Venavis
06-01-2017, 12:35 AM
Keep in mind that if someone is disagreeing with you that doesn't necessarily mean they know less about a subject than you do. Could just as easily mean they know a hell of a lot more.

Also, good rule of thumb - Never, ever, ever, lecture someone about their own lived experience. A person who actually lives in Alaska probably knows a lot more about living in Alaska than you do, no matter how many movies set in Alaska you've watched.

Tazlima
06-01-2017, 01:24 AM
Also, good rule of thumb - Never, ever, ever, lecture someone about their own lived experience. A person who actually lives in Alaska probably knows a lot more about living in Alaska than you do, no matter how many movies set in Alaska you've watched.

This. I'll never forget a call I received a few days after Hurricane Katrina, wherein I was informed that Canal Street was not only completely flooded, but that the water was infested with sharks that escaped from the aquarium downtown.

I explained that, in fact, the area around the aquarium was dry, and even as far down as the hospital, the water only got about knee-deep. However, the person I was speaking with refused to believe me... despite the fact that AT THAT MOMENT I was standing on Canal street and had waded down to the hospital that morning to see if they needed volunteers for anything.

Anna Iguana
06-01-2017, 01:31 AM
One of the dads of an elementary school classmate once insisted to my mom that my sibling and I, close in age, looked so similar, we must be twins. My mom was like, "I was there." The guy reiterated, with conviction, "No, they're twins." My mom still finds this the most hilarious case of mansplaining ever.

shakeysix
06-01-2017, 01:38 AM
My brother-in-law likes to find interesting articles and read them out loud to my sister. I was staying at their house yesterday to help with garden work. BIL decided that we needed a lecture on Thomas Cromwell, only because he was watching some romanticized, semi-historical slop on the TeeVee. So then he googled the man and no doubt found the Wikipedia article. Now, when I was teaching Comp 1 & 2 I would skin alive any student who used Wikipedia as a source. I did not point that out.

I did point out that I had taken a college class on the Reformation andso had my sister--who incidentally went to college in England for a semester. I said that if he wanted a decent source I could give him a few books, when I finished pick axing the river rock out of a flower bed that our father and brother had rocked over to make their yard work easier. (weeds do come up through rocks and weed- bar fabric, and only a bona fide moron would think differently, but I digress.)

Anyway, my sister and I still had to listen to the Cromwell lecture because BIL never went to college--well, I think flunking out of the University of Phoenix counts as never--and he is kind of sensitive about it so we sat, in our grubbly clothes and shoes, and listened politely because we kind of like the guy. (she more than I) And he has a bad back so can't help with the heavy work and he hates that. You can see it on his face. And because he works as my sisters classroom para. She's the teacher, he's the para. Can't be easy for him, so we listen and humor him.

So this is my theory on the future of feminism:we make the money, we do the mule work and we listen politely when the man splains it because we are fond of him. --s6

cornflake
06-01-2017, 02:13 AM
One of the dads of an elementary school classmate once insisted to my mom that my sibling and I, close in age, looked so similar, we must be twins. My mom was like, "I was there." The guy reiterated, with conviction, "No, they're twins." My mom still finds this the most hilarious case of mansplaining ever.

Ok, that's full-on hilarious. Maybe he didn't actually understand 'twins'' as a concept?

Some twitter or tumbler or something mansplaining feed I saw once had a guy telling a woman she could not be having her period, and thus didn't need to buy tampons or whatever sparked it, because it was "not the 28th." The layers of stupid are just endless.

Ari Meermans
06-01-2017, 02:14 AM
*chuckles* "Shared experiences" and all that jazz. You're right, you know, we do facilitate it—or at least we do, until we become old women who turn the air blue because enough is enough, already.

Thing going on here even as we discuss this topic: We're in the process of remodeling my potting shed. Now, we bought this property something like eight years before we were ready to move and retire here, so I designed a potting shed at that time. A little here and a little there, we constructed the sucker. Over this past winter, the ceiling was damaged and caved in from the heavy rains. The hubs cleaned all the debris away—thank you, dear—and we had the shed re-roofed. I told him about the changes I want to make since we have it torn down from wall studs to subfloor. He started lecturing me on "how" the shed was constructed and what my changes mean, yeah? I reminded him that I did the "constructin'" with only a little of his help except for setting the footings and raising the roof trusses (which I built), because he had his own projects. His response? "Oh, yeah. That's right."

Ari Meermans
06-01-2017, 02:28 AM
Here's a link that might help anyone interested. It's a short clip of a man explaining mansplaining "What's Mansplaining? Here's How (and Why) You Need to Stop Privileged Explaining." (http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/10/what-is-mansplaining/) He also goes into a short reference on whitesplaining. I recommend it; it's informative and will bring a chuckle, if you're in the right frame of mind.

NateSean
06-01-2017, 02:32 AM
I'll admit that I may have been guilty of this a time or two in my life.

I once argued with a Mexican lady about the definition of Speedy Gonzales' catchphrase. My only defense is that I was twelve at the time.

Venavis
06-01-2017, 03:01 AM
I'll never forget a call I received a few days after Hurricane Katrina, wherein I was informed that Canal Street was not only completely flooded, but that the water was infested with sharks that escaped from the aquarium downtown.

I explained that, in fact, the area around the aquarium was dry, and even as far down as the hospital, the water only got about knee-deep. However, the person I was speaking with refused to believe me... despite the fact that AT THAT MOMENT I was standing on Canal street and had waded down to the hospital that morning to see if they needed volunteers for anything.

I used to think a friend of mine was exaggerating some of her customers until I happened to see it for myself. I watched, a little dumbfounded, as this dumbass lectured her on how swords are made.... while standing in her smithy, next to a display of swords she'd made. I mean, I believed her, but I just didn't quite get the full scope of the stupid until that very moment.

Aggy B.
06-01-2017, 03:04 AM
So, I find that concrete examples of something that has occurred in ones own life are good. Not just generalizations based on an article read, or just a reiteration of the article itself. I find that a lot of men think the problem is that they "have an opinion" and women don't want that. But, personally, I don't mind the sharing of information, but if you are trying to correct me on something I've studied or actually done, you'd better have actually studied or done that thing too, not just read something while waiting for the bus or sitting on the toilet.

The trick with sharing personal examples is that sometimes (a lot of times) that can result in "centering" the conversation around you, rather than around the actual subject of the conversation. So you have to be sensitive to what the actual conversation is. And, sometimes, you have to accept that there is nothing for you to add. (I have a general rule on Twitter than when PoC/LGBTQAI are discussing something regarding systematic racism and discrimination, I retweet, but I don't comment. Because I very rarely have anything to add. I *have* been discriminated against, but unless the discuss directly intersects where I live - poor, white, female, recovering conservative, recovering Catholic - I try to keep my mouth shut and instead let the folks who are actually living with a thing discuss it.)

There's also accepting that just because you want to learn more about something, no one has an obligation to explain it for you. There is plenty of material out there to be read on pretty much every social justice issue, on pretty much every other issue ever. You just have to look. And, if you find something that seems off or challenges something you always assumed was a certain way, you can ask for help, but do it with humility and not the expectation that someone must respond just because you're trying to do the right thing.

Semantics matter. "I found this article and it's super-interesting," is not the same as "Has anyone else read this article because it's making me wonder about X and D and this is why because <personal example>."

And, if you screw something up (I do, a lot) then be honest if people call you out on it and apologize without being defensive (which is really fucking hard to do, but if you're saying anything other than "I'm sorry," then maybe don't post it until you've really had time to think things over).

Anna Iguana
06-01-2017, 03:05 AM
Ari, your shed! Thank you for the link, too. It is hard not to 'splain from privilege, and I'm sure I've done it. One parent was a professional lecturer and the other was an editor; in our home, correcting people teaching was a way of life.

I do think it's easy to address a woman with over-confidence without ill intent; we get more of that lecturing, in a way that can be invisible if you're not a woman; and we get judged harshly if we speak more than 30% as much as men. I try to start more sentences with phrases like "in my experience" and talk less than I'm naturally inclined, and I'm sure I still make mistakes.

ETA: +1 to everything Aggy said.

MAS
06-01-2017, 04:15 AM
Maybe he didn't actually understand 'twins'' as a concept?



With apologies for this temporary derail: When a friend of mine used to tell new acquaintances that she had "triplets, two girls and a boy" the person she was talking to would almost invariably respond with, "Oh, are they identical?"

roseangel
06-01-2017, 06:09 AM
With apologies for this temporary derail: When a friend of mine used to tell new acquaintances that she had "triplets, two girls and a boy" the person she was talking to would almost invariably respond with, "Oh, are they identical?"

Supposedly possible but rare, at least according to wikipedia.

Tazlima
06-01-2017, 07:14 AM
I used to think a friend of mine was exaggerating some of her customers until I happened to see it for myself. I watched, a little dumbfounded, as this dumbass lectured her on how swords are made.... while standing in her smithy, next to a display of swords she'd made. I mean, I believed her, but I just didn't quite get the full scope of the stupid until that very moment.

Lol, I wish I could say I was surprised.

These are egregious examples, of course, but mansplaining (and whitesplaining, and richsplaining) occur on a regular basis in countless smaller ways. And "smaller" is the problem, because the usually-small scale of these things is a deterrent to speaking out against them. Any individual example can easily be handwaved away with kind interpretations. "Oh, he just wanted to share some particular point." "He was just trying to be nice." "Maybe he didn't realize you already knew this stuff; you should have said something. Oh, you're being overly sensitive; I'm sure it wasn't that bad." And on and on.

You know, it just occurred to me that this downplaying and handwaving is, in itself, a form of mansplaining. "Surely you're overreacting, if you only thought about it the right way."

It's insidious, an IV drip of condescension. Oh, maybe it makes your hand a bit cold, but mostly you tolerate the minor discomfort and often even forget it's there, until that moment when you find yourself with a bladder the size of Rhode Island and realize they've swapped out the bag three times.

zanzjan
06-01-2017, 07:16 AM
(Notes that having multiples [twins, triplets, etc.] increases exponentially the stupid things people say to you. I could fill a whole thread with stories.)

A few years ago I was in Home Despot once looking for a very particular screw for a project, and as I was standing there, a helpful employee came up and immediately started explaining to me the difference between nails and screws. Then he asked me if I was looking for the gardening section. There was no conversation leading up to this -- he just immediately made (very wrong) assumptions based on my apparent gender.

The thing about mansplaining is that it's almost never ill-intentioned, and one doesn't want to be ungrateful that someone is trying to be helpful, but that doesn't undo the fundamental effect of underestimating, undermining, and disregarding the explainee, especially when it happens over and over again. It's a side-effect of privilege and of unquestioned/underquestioned personal dominant paradigms. And it's one level when the 'splainer is making assumptions about stuff like nails and screws, and another level entirely when it's about matters of the lived experience and/or identity of others.

Helix
06-01-2017, 07:23 AM
I get mansplained about my specialist subjects all the fucking time. And apparently I have a problem when I suggest -- politely, because that's the way I've been brought up -- that I already know the stuff that some rando is explaining to me.

Hey, mansplainers, try switching your comms from transmit to receive once in a while.

ETA: I have to add this, because it's still annoying me decades later. I once had an audience member interrupt when I was giving a keynote address at a conference to add something he thought I didn't know.

be frank
06-01-2017, 07:39 AM
Just yesterday, whilst discussing what cataracts are with a middle-aged male patient who raised the topic, he interrupted me to correct my explanation and definition. Which, um, :Wha:. Sure, I have years of studying eyes and a couple of decades in practice behind me, but he's a man, and thusily knows better.

God, did I ever want to punch him.

Albedo
06-01-2017, 07:52 AM
Just yesterday, whilst discussing what cataracts are with a middle-aged male patient who raised the topic, he interrupted me to correct my explanation and definition. Which, um, :Wha:. Sure, I have years of studying eyes and a couple of decades in practice behind me, but he's a man, and thusily knows better.

God, did I ever want to punch him.
See, this where detailing your knowledge re: techniques in eyeball 'extraction' to the patient would come in handy. You think you know eyes, huh? Let me tell you about eyes ...

I hope I've never mansplained. I mean, I probably have, but I try not to.

be frank
06-01-2017, 08:00 AM
See, this where detailing your knowledge re: techniques in eyeball 'extraction' to the patient would come in handy. You think you know eyes, huh? Let me tell you about eyes ...

:roll:

I suppose I could've offered to clear out his tear ducts, gratis. Nothing shuts a person up quicker than coming at their eye with a syringe.


I hope I've never mansplained. I mean, I probably have, but I try not to.

I reckon being alert to the issue is a huge part of not being a mansplainer. IME, most of the worst culprits have no self-awareness.

Unimportant
06-01-2017, 08:07 AM
Mansplaining: What is it?
Google is your friend.

Mansplaining often expands into the behavioural category of 'expecting others to spend their time and and energy educating you, instead of you taking the time and effort to identify and address the gaps in your own knowledge' (Subtitle: 'because your time is clearly far more valuable than theirs'; Footnote: 'those lesser folk should be honoured to be asked')

shakeysix
06-01-2017, 09:17 AM
"13th Warrior" was on television once, years ago, when I was visiting my dad and brother. I said something about "Beowulf". It was a family evening--not a holiday, just a weekly dinner. My brother whirled on me, almost angrily. He sneered "Just what do you know about Beowulf?"

I'm an English teacher. He is a machinist. I had thought this was clear. I don't lecture him about injection molds. It makes sense that he would not lecture me about epic poetry. At least to me. But I had forgotten that he "owns" things. He has these things that he has read about, not studied but read an article or two in a magazine or online and then, without the least bit of embarrassment, he becomes an expert on that thing--no certificate, purely self declared.

This time, probably because my daughters were present, two are also English Lit teachers, and were rolling their eyes, I couldn't let it go. I called him out. Turns out he had never even read the thing--just skimmed through an excerpt in a high school textbook. Usually I shut up--family dinner and all, godforbid I make a scene, but this time I -gave him a good, long grilling. Much to my sister and my daughter's delight he backed down--even asked me exactly what I taught. In all the years I have taught, he had never asked me what I taught, or, if he had, he didn't remember.

To my mind, the amazing thing is that he put himself out, publicly, as an expert on something he read once, 40 years ago. I, on the other hand, would never advertise myself as a Beowulf scholar because it bores the crap out of me. I had to grit my teeth and gulp down a nightly tumbler of Wild Irish Rose to get through the assigned pages. And, as I have admitted in other threads, I had to invest in a copy of Cliff's Notes to pass the test. In no way am I an authority.

I took a class on enameling and one on metal -smithing. I have read two books and countless articles on enameling yet I would never try to lecture my brother on the subject because he owns it, although he has never enameled anything. I made a paper weight and a spoon but still I'd never lecture anyone on the subject because I assume anyone talking about enameling has more expertise than I have. I do know a lot about the short stories of Somerset Maugham, Blandings Castle, how to grow perfect columbines--but you have to ask me to hear about it, because I was raised female.

So how can my brother convince himself that he is an authority on something he knows nothing about? I think it is because he loves swords and dicks and Beowulf is big on swords and dicks. But swords and dicks to one side, the Beowulf thing is a big question with the females that I know. How can men declare themselves as experts on a subject that they have the slimmest grasp of, and then go on, brazenly, to lecture any females they decide needs to be enlightened?

Second question: why do we let them get away with it? --s6

Snitchcat
06-01-2017, 09:30 AM
How can men declare themselves as experts on a subject that they have the slimmest grasp of, and then go on, brazenly, to lecture any females they decide need to be enlightened.

Second question: why do we let them get away with it? --s6

Generally, I don't let anyone get away with this. Although, sometimes, just walking away is a good thing.

As far as how men are able to decide to be such authorities regardless of a thereof? Well, is it too far-fetched to relate this to the toxic masculinity image/culture that men are expected to adhere to?

shakeysix
06-01-2017, 09:50 AM
PS--I am especially cranky tonight because there I am watching "Separate Tables" and it is pissing me off. Wendy Hiller is in love with Bert Lancaster but is giving him up to Rita Hayworth why? The sad, cold fact is that Rita Hayworth is beautiful and Wendy is not, At least that is what I am drawing from Bert's long winded pontifications.,

Deborah Kerr is usually one of my favorites but if she says "Yes Mummy" one more time, I am going to reach through the screen and bitch slap her. And, Jeezuss H. Christ--why is sparking up a romance with a fraudulent boor who gropes females in cinemas, a happy ever after ending? Is every spinster's lot in life so pathetic that taking up with a sexually inadequate fondler is blessed, heart warming good fortune? And then there is Bert mansplaining to Rita why she is evil and he's not even while he is breaking Wendy's heart. What a POS! --s6

mccardey
06-01-2017, 09:52 AM
Second question: why do we let them get away with it? --s6 Exhaustion.

Ari Meermans
06-01-2017, 10:14 AM
The thing about mansplaining is that it's almost never ill-intentioned, and one doesn't want to be ungrateful that someone is trying to be helpful, but that doesn't undo the fundamental effect of underestimating, undermining, and disregarding the explainee, especially when it happens over and over again. It's a side-effect of privilege and of unquestioned/underquestioned personal dominant paradigms. And it's one level when the 'splainer is making assumptions about stuff like nails and screws, and another level entirely when it's about matters of the lived experience and/or identity of others.

I think it's important to acknowledge that it's almost never ill-intentioned. The clip I shared above included the reason(s) why mansplaining happens in the first place—we bring up our sons and daughters to different societal expectations. And we're still doing it in myriad small ways. We've begun to send mixed messages in our zeal to open up the world to our girls. How are our boys going to find their footing in this changing world if we don't also stop teaching them they are to be the ones in charge, that they are supposed to have the answers, and they must be the ones to be relied upon?

And, I'd imagine it must be terribly confusing to a lot of men caught in this transition right now. We tell them that, yeah, well now things have changed and you'll have to change with them. But how are they supposed to do that? What's their fallback plan? Society as a whole is still sending them the same old coded messages. Even the men who do conciously get it (for the most part) have to unlearn unconcious thought patterns and behaviors that they've never had to even think about. They will make mistakes. That's guaranteed.

So that's my take. And I think we're all going to be losers in this deal unless and until we figure this out.

ETA: I just want to clarify that the aforegoing is not meant to let our mansplainers off the hook. Nope. It's simply an acknowledgment that it's a lot of work. They're still expected to put that effort in, and the best place to start is to actively listen and learn to self-interrogate.

shakeysix
06-01-2017, 10:54 AM
Believe me, I am just as frustrated with myself for letting things go. I blame it on my upbringing. Sometimes it seems like I was raised in another galaxy. My mother was an outspoken woman for the times but I also had 12 years of catholic schooling. Nunsplaining is hard to shake. --s6

fistnik
06-01-2017, 12:02 PM
So this is my theory on the future of feminism:we make the money, we do the mule work and we listen politely when the man splains it because we are fond of him. --s6

Sounds like a good trade-off :e2crown:

Putputt
06-01-2017, 12:28 PM
Some of these anecdotes are hilarious! Well, in a sad way, anyway. It's funny, I often have debates/discussions with my female friends, but I rarely ever feel "lectured" by them. So to me, "mansplaining" is when a guy approaches a conversation with me not as an equal, but as a superior (even though he may be less experienced than I am in that particular subject).

I've got stories...

-In the US, guys would try to pick me up with "Konnichiwa!" or "Hey! You're Korean/Japanese/Filipino/(insert other Asian country here), right?" I'd say, "No." And they'd be like, *pause* "Are you sure? Cause you look Japanese. You must have some Japanese ancestry." Literally male STRANGERS think they know better what my race is than I do.

-I once hired a male photographer to be my second for a wedding. He'd photographed maybe 3 weddings when I hired him. I'd done dozens. The whole fucking day was me going "Ok can you get the bridesmaids there pls?" and him going "It's better if we get the bridesmaids to *that other place* instead. Trust me, I know what I'm doing." It's not even a "What about that other spot? The light hits it rly well." It's just plain old "Trust ME. FOR I AM MAN." I've worked with 4 other photographers, all female, and didn't have a problem with any of them.

-A female friend of mine recently had a book published. Some white guy reviewed it as an "inaccurate portrayal of Muslims" and "this is not what Pakistan is like" and "it's offensive to Muslims". Someone commented on his review and asked if he's Muslim, or has been to Pakistan. He said no, but that's not the point. He just *knows*. My friend is Pakistani, has a PhD in religious studies, lives in Karachi, but this rando thinks he knows better what Pakistan is like because...? I have no idea. Probably read about it on Wiki and now he's an expert.

Night_Writer
06-01-2017, 01:14 PM
One night I was in a bar shooting pool with a male acquaintance (I'm female). Around the middle of the game, he starts giving me advice on how to hold the cue, what ball to hit into what pocket, etc.

I've had this happen before, but the sick part is that this guy was losing. I was ahead of him in the game.

I didn't even know what to say. I think I just mumbled something incoherent, ignored the advice, and kept playing. But I couldn't believe the gall.

I think that men might do this in order to not feel inferior when he's losing at something. But in the common sense department, who in their right mind would take advice from a person that's losing?

IDK. I guess the common sense factor doesn't factor in when it comes to mansplaining.

Aggy B.
06-01-2017, 03:06 PM
I've had multiple discussions with someone in my family about my knowledge of writing and publishing. I have a BA in Moving Image Arts with a focus on screenwriting, won a scholarship to a professional conference due to my writing - while in college, and have spent 10+ years reading and studying about the publishing industry, writing on a daily basis, and selling short fiction to pro-markets.

But apparently I still know less than someone who took a few English courses in college, and one class in technical writing, and graduated with an Associates Degree almost 30 years ago. (But has not studied publishing then or since.) Because being an English major (who doesn't write fiction or non-fiction in any sort of professional capacity or even on a regular basis *cough* ever *cough*) is apparently a thing that makes one more of an expert than someone who writes every day and sells their work for money.

Venavis
06-01-2017, 03:07 PM
Second question: why do we let them get away with it? --s6

Well, based on my observations it's in part because if you stand your ground you become a target for verbal abuse and hostility, and that switch flips fast. Guy I had previously thought of as a nice, fairly goofy individual turned into Mr. Hyde when a woman dared suggest A) he was wrong and B) she didn't find him attractive. I ended up having to show him the door, because he missed it the first time I 'asked' him to leave and hit the wall instead.

I'd like to know why men don't do more about it. Where is the fun in watching someone be a condescending asshat who is interrupting the person who actually has something interesting to say?

Aggy B.
06-01-2017, 03:25 PM
I'd like to know why men don't do more about it. Where is the fun in watching someone be a condescending asshat who is interrupting the person who actually has something interesting to say?

Unfortunately, I think a lot of men don't notice when it happens. Either because they do it themselves, or because it seems perfectly natural to them that a man would explain something to a woman. Or because when a woman talks about how men don't take her seriously they just assume she's exaggerating. (Because this is what our culture has taught us to believe is true.) I have friends who were genuinely shocked by that tweet thread a couple months ago where the guy "switched places" with the woman he worked with (they agreed to sign each others name in correspondence to see if there was actually a difference in the way their clients treated them). He discovered that the reason she was getting so much less work done was not because she was slow or not good at her job, but because their clients would argue with her over stuff they took as a given from him. He was someone who was smart enough/willing enough to understand what was going on, but a lot of men will never even notice that something like that happens. They are brought up not to.

Putputt
06-01-2017, 03:29 PM
Well, based on my observations it's in part because if you stand your ground you become a target for verbal abuse and hostility, and that switch flips fast.

Oh man, is this ever true. With my previous example of guys guessing my race, so many of them react with indignation or even anger when I tell them politely that I'm not whatever race they guessed. "Are you suuure?" too often turns to an angry "You're NOT." I have felt, on a couple of occasions, threatened enough to say, "Um, well maybe I have some Korean/Japanese/whatever ancestry that I don't know of? Ha ha." just to get out of an increasingly uncomfortable situation. And then I feel really angry at myself later on for playing into their little game.



I'd like to know why men don't do more about it. Where is the fun in watching someone be a condescending asshat who is interrupting the person who actually has something interesting to say?

The sad part is, so many of my guy friends are just clueless when this goes on. I tend to point it out to them later on, and they'll be like, "Ooohh. Wow, I totally missed that." I think it's easy to miss stuff like this when it doesn't happen to you.

lizmonster
06-01-2017, 03:33 PM
He was someone who was smart enough/willing enough to understand what was going on, but a lot of men will never even notice that something like that happens. They are brought up not to.

TBF, it's such a ubiquitous part of living life female that I didn't even think about it as something to push back on until recent years. It was a "smile, nod, work around it" problem - yet another a thing men did that I was expected to adapt to. The goal was to placate them quickly and get them out of the way so you could get done whatever you needed to get done. Heaven forbid anyone suggest men make a change.

Helix
06-01-2017, 03:38 PM
The sad part is, so many of my guy friends are just clueless when this goes on. I tend to point it out to them later on, and they'll be like, "Ooohh. Wow, I totally missed that." I think it's easy to miss stuff like this when it doesn't happen to you.

Then there's the 'oh, you're just imagining it', because they are too clueless to notice and if they didn't notice it means it totally didn't happen. Because men create reality or something.

RedRajah
06-01-2017, 04:35 PM
Exhaustion.

And in worst case scenarios, fear.

mayqueen
06-01-2017, 04:53 PM
My go-to response to mansplainers in my daily life (work is a different thing) is just a flat, plain, "Okay." As has been mentioned, most mansplainers don't mean ill-will, and many will react with anger or defensiveness if you disagree. So this tends to work for me because it both gives the impression that I've listened and shuts it down.

I've been powerlifting for about five years now. It took a lot of work for me to become comfortable on the weight floor as a woman. It's kind of hilarious but also sad how many encounters I and my other femme friends have had with mansplainers.

One time I had a guy actually stop me in the middle of an exercise and make me take out my headphones to explain to me that I was doing it wrong. I was doing bicep curls. (I just said okay, put my headphones back in, and carried on.)

I learned not to engage after a guy became furious that I disagreed with him that you're supposed to look up at the ceiling while doing barbell back squats. He kept arguing with me even after I'd explained why I wasn't looking up at the ceiling.

Oh! And then once I took a bench press that had weight on it but otherwise no sign that anyone was using it (it's very common at this gym for people to not unload the bar when they've finished). A guy interrupted my sets to explain that he "wasn't mad" but that I should know (how?) that he had been using it.

I have never seen men talk to each other on the weight floor the way they talk to women.

Putputt
06-01-2017, 05:15 PM
Then there's the 'oh, you're just imagining it', because they are too clueless to notice and if they didn't notice it means it totally didn't happen. Because men create reality or something.

:ROFL:



I have never seen men talk to each other on the weight floor the way they talk to women.

Agh, yes. Mansplaining happens so often that I do sometimes find myself thinking: Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive? Maybe I'm just imagining it? But then I have observed exactly that: The same guy who's just mansplained something to a woman would then go on to discuss the same exact topic with another guy, but this time, he'd approach it as an equal, not as a lecturer.

Jason
06-01-2017, 05:28 PM
Oh God....I almost spit out my coffee laughing at some of the anecdotes here. As one of the official "menfolk", may I apologize on behalf of those who are mainsplaining without meaning to? (I do try to avoid it personally at all costs, considering myself more of a student than a teacher :) )

I wonder if there is a corollary to this gender bias of mansplaining relative to our elders?

This is most evident to me in fields of technology - computers, telecommunications, etc. Trying to teach your elder about a computer, (or in my case, an old school TDM guy about VOIP) is challenging because they think they know more than you by virtue of their age. I've always been taught to respect my elders, but when it becomes my job to teach you telecommunications because you come to my class, why do they talk for 5 minutes on SIP and get it nearly all wrong? (and for what it's worth, the same guy who "knew" the TDM side "like the back of his hand" knew absolutely nothing about Nyquist's theorem... :Headbang: )

Helix
06-01-2017, 05:33 PM
Oh God....I almost spit out my coffee laughing at some of the anecdotes here. As one of the official "menfolk", may I apologize on behalf of those who are mainsplaining without meaning to? (I do try to avoid it personally at all costs, considering myself more of a student than a teacher :) )

I wonder if there is a corollary to this gender bias of mansplaining relative to our elders?

This is most evident to me in fields of technology - computers, telecommunications, etc. Trying to teach your elder about a computer, (or in my case, an old school TDM guy about VOIP) is challenging because they think they know more than you by virtue of their age. I've always been taught to respect my elders, but when it becomes my job to teach you telecommunications because you come to my class, why do they talk for 5 minutes on SIP and get it nearly all wrong? (and for what it's worth, the same guy who "knew" the TDM side "like the back of his hand" knew absolutely nothing about Nyquist's theorem... :Headbang: )

This would be men talking to men, would it?

shakeysix
06-01-2017, 05:36 PM
My cousin's daughter makes maps for a living--can't remember the term for the profession but she has degree in it, spent years earning it from a university. She travels a lot, so we don't see her that often but she was home for holidays a couple years ago. I spent a good hour visiting with her about her work, listening to her adventures. Days later, my brother heard from someone that Haley worked with surveys and maps. His reaction? "Why didn't anyone tell me? I'm nuts about maps! I'd love to tell her about MY maps."

Yeah. Jimmy, our cousin, told you. I heard him say it. Instead of listening, you shook her hand, brushed past her and went into the kitchen to talk shotguns, footballs and dicks with the dicks.

Okay. I've told several ugly stories about my brother so I have to tell one good one. Some years ago a co-worker of his mentioned that his sister was waiting for him on the parking lot. She had been released from a hospital in Wichita after a serious illness and operation. From Wichita to her hometown in western Kansas, is an almost a 3 hour trip. Her family had been leap frogging her across Kansas,, one sibling picking her up in Wichita and driving her to the next sibling's house, just dropping her and her suitcase off like a parcel. When my brother heard about this, he drove the woman, a complete stranger, straight to her door, helped her into the house and told her to call him if she had trouble. Her own brother offered him gas money but my brother would not take it. For days he fumed about this treatment. He said over and over that he could not respect anyone who treated his sister like that. NOT to his eternal credit, he also had to add "and she wasn't even good looking!"

And this is why I love him so. Oh, and the night my husband died he was the first family on the scene, flying all the way from Eugene, Oregon on very short notice. He walked through the door after midnight. I threw myself into his arms. He was carrying a hacksaw--swear to god. Because he knew our downstairs shower needed to be re-plumbed. --s6

PeteMC
06-01-2017, 05:36 PM
I'm a bloke and even I've been manspained to - I once had a green belt explain martial arts to me at a time when I had already been a fully-qualified instructor for several years, but he was a fair bit older than me so "obviously" knew what he was talking about. I also had long hair at the time and I think he thought I was gay, so "obviously" wouldn't know anything about martial arts... smh.

Jason
06-01-2017, 05:40 PM
This would be men talking to men, would it?

Most of the time, yes, if my class attendees are any indicator, but I've actually had women that are my senior try to tell me how to use my camera who couldn't tell me what the exposure triangle was if their lives depended on it.

ETA: Love the new sig btw! :)


I'm a bloke and even I've been manspained to - I once had a green belt explain martial arts to me at a time when I had already been a fully-qualified instructor for several years, but he was a fair bit older than me so "obviously" knew what he was talking about. I also had long hair at the time and I think he thought I was gay, so "obviously" wouldn't know anything about martial arts... smh.

But if you're a bloke, then wouldn't it be bloke-splaining? :roll:

zanzjan
06-01-2017, 05:50 PM
Nunsplaining

*files away in the Great New Words drawer for future need*


In the US, guys would try to pick me up with "Konnichiwa!" or "Hey! You're Korean/Japanese/Filipino/(insert other Asian country here), right?" I'd say, "No." And they'd be like, *pause* "Are you sure? Cause you look Japanese. You must have some Japanese ancestry." Literally male STRANGERS think they know better what my race is than I do.

Presumably you have already seen this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crAv5ttax2I)?


Well, based on my observations it's in part because if you stand your ground you become a target for verbal abuse and hostility, and that switch flips fast.

Well, and that's it. Some people (and while we've got men in the crosshairs with the term "mansplaining", there are plenty of other variants that aren't specific to men) react very badly to their privilege/expertise being questioned. It isn't always safe to stand up for yourself, and you don't necessarily know who is going to go off. I once joked on an email list about something being "lame" and spent months getting multiple death threats a day for it, enough that I had to get the state police involved.


Okay. I've told several ugly stories about my brother so I have to tell one good one.

Awww, good brother. Cluelessness aside :)

zanzjan
06-01-2017, 05:56 PM
I once had a green belt explain martial arts to me at a time when I had already been a fully-qualified instructor for several years

*smh*

I knew this guy in college who was totally one of those types. If he knew the slightest bit about anything he automatically knew more than everyone else, and apparently at some point he decided this applied to martial arts as well. (We decided, absent information about what particular type of martial arts he might be talking about, that he was clearly a Bagheadjitsu Master.) Anyway, he was a physically large guy, and we watched him once brag and mansplain at length about his prowess to this short, quiet, prematurely-balding physics student, so the physics student offered to let this guy show him some moves. Less than thirty seconds later, physics guy had flipped the guy down the hall like he was a big sack of potatoes.

Said guy has, in the decades since, become distinctly less clueless. I believe that day was the start of his positive path forward.

Anna Iguana
06-01-2017, 05:59 PM
Jason, as somebody who's taught adults (and befriended teachers), there is definitely overlap in behavior between insecure/overconfident students and insecure/overconfident men. One difference, maybe, is that if a male teacher does his job/stands firm on his expertise, he is (in my experience) less likely to get called a bitch or worse, be sexualized and/or belittled in front of his students and peers, get followed to his car after class and harassed, or get questioned by male supervisors as maybe the source of the problem because who believes such things even happen? (A: Women. Women believe it because it happens to us.)

ETA: And no matter how a female teacher handles her students, she will get lower-rated teacher evaluations, because she isn't a man. (Source: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/11/new-analysis-offers-more-evidence-against-student-evaluations-teaching)

be frank
06-01-2017, 06:04 PM
Jason, as somebody who's taught adults (and befriended teachers), there is definitely overlap in behavior between insecure/overconfident students and insecure/overconfident men. One difference, maybe, is that if a male teacher does his job/stands firm on his expertise, he is (in my experience) less likely to get called a bitch or worse, be sexualized and/or belittled in front of his students and peers, get followed to his car after class and harassed, or get questioned by male supervisors as maybe the source of the problem because who believes such things even happen? (A: Women. Women believe it because it happens to us.)

FWIW, I just mentally switched out some of those words for "presidential candidates."

RichardGarfinkle
06-01-2017, 06:09 PM
I think it's important to acknowledge that it's almost never ill-intentioned. The clip I shared above included the reason(s) why mansplaining happens in the first place—we bring up our sons and daughters to different societal expectations. And we're still doing it in myriad small ways. We've begun to send mixed messages in our zeal to open up the world to our girls. How are our boys going to find their footing in this changing world if we don't also stop teaching them they are to be the ones in charge, that they are supposed to have the answers, and they must be the ones to be relied upon?

And, I'd imagine it must be terribly confusing to a lot of men caught in this transition right now. We tell them that, yeah, well now things have changed and you'll have to change with them. But how are they supposed to do that? What's their fallback plan? Society as a whole is still sending them the same old coded messages. Even the men who do conciously get it (for the most part) have to unlearn unconcious thought patterns and behaviors that they've never had to even think about. They will make mistakes. That's guaranteed.

So that's my take. And I think we're all going to be losers in this deal unless and until we figure this out.

ETA: I just want to clarify that the aforegoing is not meant to let our mansplainers off the hook. Nope. It's simply an acknowledgment that it's a lot of work. They're still expected to put that effort in, and the best place to start is to actively listen and learn to self-interrogate.

I'm finding myself trending away from tolerance towards lack of ill-intent.

One of the hallmarks of privilege is indifference toward learning.

A person may think they have no ill-intent when they are simultaneously ignorant and 'splaining.

To my mind, there is a subtext of contempt in the taking up of a teaching posture when one should clearly be trying to learn.

Aggy B.
06-01-2017, 06:19 PM
My in-laws were big on 'splaining of various bents. (MIL always wanted to tell me how to cook. SIL once told my husband that she had the exact same skill-set creatively as I do because she was in a slightly related field. She also insisted on being the one to take her mother to the doc after MIL broke her wrist because "I do medical transcriptions so I can understand what the doctor is saying better than you can". Of course, my in-laws are also all significantly older than I am so some of that was based around my apparently being part of a young and clueless generation.)

So, yes. There are other iterations that are not specifically men explaining things to women, but that one is extremely prevalent. And I've yet to find a woman who has not had a man explain something to her at some point. (Frequently strangers, which is where it tends to depart from other types of explaining is that there's frequently no other level of interaction - like work training or family, etc - just some rando stopping to tell you that you're doing something wrong or "did you know...?")

I once had a dude at the bank tell me that having recently replaced the CV joint/axle on my car* couldn't have anything to do with a minor transmission fluid leak because "they aren't connected". And I was like "Oh really? How do you think the transmission makes the car move then?" And he turned real red and went from being all "I work on my car sometimes" < (he literally said this to me when he saw me checking the trans fluid and wanted to know if I needed help with it) to "I don't really know that much about cars".

*I didn't do the replacement, Mr. Aggy did. It took a couple of days for the new gaskets to seat properly at which point there was no more leak.

Jason
06-01-2017, 06:26 PM
Jason, as somebody who's taught adults (and befriended teachers), there is definitely overlap in behavior between insecure/overconfident students and insecure/overconfident men. One difference, maybe, is that if a male teacher does his job/stands firm on his expertise, he is (in my experience) less likely to get called a bitch or worse, be sexualized and/or belittled in front of his students and peers, get followed to his car after class and harassed, or get questioned by male supervisors as maybe the source of the problem because who believes such things even happen? (A: Women. Women believe it because it happens to us.)

ETA: And no matter how a female teacher handles her students, she will get lower-rated teacher evaluations, because she isn't a man. (Source: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/01/11/new-analysis-offers-more-evidence-against-student-evaluations-teaching)

Excellent follow-up point, and to that specifically, I've been in and around higher education and teaching as a discipline for long enough that I've actually seen it happen and called out a few asshats myself. That kind of insipid reaction to women in any context, whether they're in positions of authority or not, bugs the crap out of me...I can learn from anyone, and don't look at a persons genitals as the determining factor as to whether they know their material or not.

Two specific examples comes to mind:
Example 1
In college I took a political theory class taught by a professor named Dr. Best (the students referred to her as Dr. Beast because her courses were very demanding and beastly to study for...). I screwed up Marx and Machiavelli in my final essay, just flipping them inadvertently. Because my undergraduate major was Political Science and I was an upperclassman at the time, I actually had a chance to meet with each professor after the semester to discuss any thoughts, comments, etc. rather than an anonymous form. Before giving me my final essay back, Dr. Best asked me to verbally explain the theories of Marx and Machiavelli to the best of my recollection in our post-class discussion. I was a bit confused as to the request, but did so (correctly this time).

She flipped open the little blue essay book I had written in, made a few notes, and then passed it over. This woman changed my grade on the fly from an A- to an A, with a note that said something to the effect of:

"Jason, I think you just had a mental lapse. In your compare/contrast essay you referenced Machiavelli then gave me Marx's talking points and vice versa for the following paragraph. Good job though, congrats on the 4.0 this semester - A"

I was floored...

Example 2
Much less of a story, but when I took my PMP certification course, it was taught by a woman. I learned more from her than most of my college professors! That woman was amazing, and I've actually applied a few of her teaching techniques in my own course deliveries since.

Anna Iguana
06-01-2017, 06:31 PM
I'm drawn back to a point from Aggy and others. In conversations about marginalization, I'm torn about how much sense it makes for a person outside those experiences to ask, "You mean, is this like my experience X from a position of privilege?"

If I said, with all good intentions, "Hey, your experience as a person of color sounds like my experience doing X as a white person?" the response would surely be, no, these experiences are not the same. Because of assumptions people make about me and themselves, that manifest in how they interact with me, my life is different from yours, every second of every day.

-isms are not good for anybody. It is not fair to be born with the short end of the stick. It is not fair to be born with the long end of the stick and have no idea what things look like from the other side.

AW Admin
06-01-2017, 06:57 PM
I think at the heart of mansplaining (http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2010/01/28/mansplaining/) one of the problems is an absence of audience awareness.

Writers always need to think about their readers: who are they? What do you really know about your readers/audience?


Don't assume that you're an authority.

There's a problem with mainstream Western cultures in that men and women are encouraged to perceive male = authority.

There's a strong pattern of mansplaining (http://karenhealey.livejournal.com/781085.html), which requires that a man be explaining unnecessarily and inappropriately to a woman.

What's important is that these are instances where the men know they are explaining to a woman. They know my name is Lisa; they use it. And they are making assumptions, perhaps without realizing it, because they know I'm a woman.

In terms of my experience with it on AW, in terms of examples, I primarily encounter it in terms of:


Men who don't seem to realize that I really am a sys admin.
Men who want to let me know what "real lesbians" are like because they have a lesbian friend. SMH. I can't even . . . with that one.
Men who want to let me know how something works in terms of Middle English or Celtic languages or ancient Celts or Medieval literature.


In each of these cases, they haven't thought about their audience / reader; they've made assumptions about that audience / reader. And those assumptions are that they're an authority, and I am not.


I've been running and supporting and creating servers since the 1990s. I've got certificates and on the job experience. I've been Admin on this server since 2006; and before that, was coaching the previous male Admin who didn't even know how to use SFTP or SSL. I've supported thousands of users and done tertiary support; I've written documentation and help systems and done QA. But male users tend to assume I don't know what I'm doing, both in terms of explaining things (and often, getting it wrong) and flat out contradicting me, like the guy yesterday who insisted that we're running Windows on AW. (Cold day in Hell before that happens . . . .)
It's really stupid to lecture a lesbian about lesbians. Really really stupid. This is not as great a faux pas as men lecturing women about women and women's issues, but it's darn close.
I have a Ph.D. in English. I read Old English, Middle English, Old Norse, Old Welsh, Old Irish . . . and a bunch of other equally dead languages. I know this stuff.


One way to avoid mansplaining (or the larger social problem of being ) is to think about audience, and try not assume.

ETA: It occurs to me that in a broader, non-gendered context, that the kind of top-down approach isn't an effective teaching methodology in general; sure lecturing is often necessary, but you tie your lecture to a context and an audience; you take the learner's POV into consideration and you don't dumb down, you don't assume ignorance; you provide context. You possibly even deliberately teach to the top end of the scale, with context to help those who are less advanced.

Aggy B.
06-01-2017, 07:02 PM
I'm drawn back to a point from Aggy and others. In conversations about marginalization, I'm torn about how much sense it makes for a person outside those experiences to ask, "You mean, is this like my experience X from a position of privilege?"

If I said, with all good intentions, "Hey, your experience as a person of color sounds like my experience doing X as a white person?" the response would surely be, no, these experiences are not the same. Because of assumptions people make about me and themselves, that manifest in how they interact with me, my life is different from yours, every second of every day.

-isms are not good for anybody. It is not fair to be born with the short end of the stick. It is not fair to be born with the long end of the stick and have no idea what things look like from the other side.

So, what can be helpful is to take an instance of discrimination and roll that out to a theoretical "What if this were happening every day?" One instance of discrimination is likely to be similar to another (if it's actually discrimination, not just one being hurt by not being the priority or audience), but one instance of discrimination is not the same as daily discrimination or systematic discrimination. And some types of discrimination (i.e. women being marginalized by systems of patriarchy) can be somewhat mitigated by other types of privilege. White women will have the same problems as WoC, and wealthy white women won't have the same problems as poor white women, etc.

It's not a binary of "everyone in this group has privilege and everyone in this group doesn't" but a really complex Venn diagram of who has privilege and who doesn't and where that overlaps or doesn't.

This plays into the whole 'splaining issue because even when advice is being offered in a genuine (if frequently tone-deaf) way, the 'splainer is making assumptions about what is true for themself being automatically true for the 'splainee. (See, again the dude and his co-worker who used each others emails. He didn't realize that a large part of her "work" was convincing clients that she knew what she was talking about, something he did not have to do nearly as much. So advice to "Just tell them this," wouldn't be helpful because that wouldn't be enough when the clients thought they were talking to a woman.)

JJ Litke
06-01-2017, 07:25 PM
A lot of this is really about insecurity. On points where I'm fully confident that I'm an expert, I feel less pressure to prove it.

Aggy B.
06-01-2017, 07:39 PM
A lot of this is really about insecurity. On points where I'm fully confident that I'm an expert, I feel less pressure to prove it.

Haha. I'm the opposite. Areas where I know that I know what I'm talking about I get really stabby when folks downplay my experience. Areas where I'm not as experienced? More likely to disengage from an argument (even if I *think* I'm actually right).

Tazlima
06-01-2017, 07:44 PM
... get questioned by male supervisors as maybe the source of the problem because who believes such things even happen? (A: Women. Women believe it because it happens to us.)



This. So much this.

Not a mansplaining incident, but I recently had drinks with a group of people who all (apart from me), work together. The conversation turned to their newest coworker and people's first impressions of him. The women in the group all agreed that he was creepy and condescending, while the men all thought he was just a swell fella.

I actually started laughing, and pointed out that it was a perfect example of how the same person can present different personas to different groups, and that, knowing nothing about the guy apart from what I'd just heard, I'm sure he WAS creepy and condescending to the women, and that the men just never saw that side of him.

What I found interesting is that, judging from the direction the conversation initially took, if I hadn't pointed this out I don't think anyone else present would have noticed it. It had already leaned into "skeptical men thinking women are exaggerating or being overly sensitive" territory. To the men's credit, they immediately saw I had a point and reversed tack on that thinking (they're a good-hearted and intelligent bunch).

(I didn't mention that the men must have seen this guy interacting with their female coworkers and, in an ideal world, maaaaybe they should have noticed something was amiss. Social blinders really are tough to shed).

Jason
06-01-2017, 07:55 PM
... was coaching the previous male Admin who didn't even know how to use SFTP or SSL.

SMH - seen many of those myself, unreal, yet so common these days


ETA: It occurs to me that in a broader, non-gendered context, that the kind of top-down approach isn't an effective teaching methodology in general; sure lecturing is often necessary, but you tie your lecture to a context and an audience; you take the learner's POV into consideration and you don't dumb down, you don't assume ignorance; you provide context. You possibly even deliberately teach to the top end of the scale, with context to help those who are less advanced.

THIS!!!

I have had professors that teach in a condescending manner and that bugs the crap out of me - being lectured to never imho has been an effective teaching methodology. I'd rather be talked to than at any day of the week. I've always found it better to relate to learners at a personal level, and then simply make it about a transfer of knowledge among us rather than disseminating down.

One of the first things I say in my classes is that while I've been teaching a while, I do not have all the answers and I don't even pretend to. Someone is going to ask a question at some point and I won't know the answer. But rather than BS learners, I'll just say, "Great question! Let's mark that for research and we can either discuss as a class in case someone else knows it, or I'll dig into it and get you an answer by the end of the week."

Invariably, I ditch the Powerpoint decks my boss made and just show everyone live on a soft switch, and then have them do the same from their work stations. I think most people learn more by interacting and doing rather than having it spoken about (regardless of whether you are talking to or at them...lol). The context is critical, otherwise nothing ever sticks.

Silva
06-01-2017, 08:45 PM
My SIL's husband does this all the time; he doesn't always actively "explain" stuff (though he's tried to school me on current political events before--after saying he doesn't follow politics because he's too busy to keep up!) but definitely he takes information or correction from men more seriously and with less antagonism than he does from women. It's highly irritating, but if I called him out on it, he'd just respond with ridicule (Millennial snowflake!) and knee-jerk denial, just the same as he has with every other opinion of mine that he's disagreed with, whether that opinion has anything to do with him or not. He'd have to have a sufficiently manly man call him out on it to take the accusation seriously, I think.

And men who are aware enough to see it happening and willing to stand up and say something in response are pretty few and far between, in my experience. Even my own husband-ish will agree that BIL's perspective is warped but would rather play devil's advocate to make sure I "understood BIL's argument properly." I mean, seriously, dude? You're gonna man-splain a man-splainer'? I don't think I've ever felt so condescended to before, and in such a personally hurtful way. :( But hey, I'm young and there's still time for someone else to be even more of an asshole. :tongue

mccardey
06-02-2017, 01:06 AM
A lot of this is really about insecurity. On points where I'm fully confident that I'm an expert, I feel less pressure to prove it.I was thinking about this - 'splaining matters to me in part because I have this terrible fear (*shh. This is just between us, right?) that if I ever become a grandmother, I'll grandmasplain everything till they haul me away. And I just realised that it's not that I have the slightest insecurity that I'd be right but that I'm not entirely secure the kids would understand just how exactly right I am.

So I think the insecurity might be not exactly insecurity around ability, but insecurity around acknowledgement. And also entitlement and position.

Venavis
06-02-2017, 01:23 AM
Social blinders really are tough to shed.

This is where certain lifestyle choices are helpful. When someone has a sensitive part of your anatomy literally in a vise you learn how to do the 'shut up and listen' thing real fast.

eqb
06-05-2017, 10:29 PM
I just came across this very public display of mansplaining:

https://www.facebook.com/marilee.talkington/posts/10155051385188961

Alessandra Kelley
06-05-2017, 10:40 PM
I just came across this very public display of mansplaining:

https://www.facebook.com/marilee.talkington/posts/10155051385188961

Cripes! :Wha:

"Let. Her. Speak. Please!"

Sage
06-05-2017, 11:19 PM
I don't like conflict and am very likely to back down in a conversation. Our lab is evenly distributed between males and females at this time. The other week I had three instances of not being believed when I was certain of the information I was given. The first was the most mansplain-y.

We add salt to waters we test when we're using specific organisms that have salinity preferences. When we do this, we also make a control water using the same salt and a control water using natural seawater. The salted control water is our dilution water. There are two types of salts. We're receiving a bunch of waters from a client that we're testing over the summer. The first of these we used a special salt for the test and control waters. The rest we're using our normal salt. This was explained very clearly to me on a Saturday I happened to be working (thank goodness, or nobody on Sunday would know). He said it, and I accepted it as true. The Sunday crew is different, and I explained the exact same thing to the Sunday supervisor when he was deciding what waters to make up. He would not believe me when I said that we were using the normal salt for all tests except the first one. He explained over and over that we had to use the same salt for the test water as the control water, and I explained over and over that I was talking about using the same salt for both because the test water was salted with the normal salt. He ended up making a control water with the special salt that eventually we threw out because we never used it (I had already made sure there was enough of the other water to get through dilutions the next morning). This got me a, "I should have believed Sage."

Monday, we're prepping for a new test with different critters. When we make our reference tests with these critters, we put them in jars, but for this client, we put them in cups. I say this to the guy prepping it. I reiterate it. He goes and asks same supervisor as above, who says, "No, I think we put them in jars." Cups was the right answer, and I got another, "I should have believed Sage." (Seriously, both of them said it that day!)

The week before I had started to prep a test, and I finished it that day. On one set of cups I had written 0.15% and on another I had written 0.19% for the same dilution, and my supervisor (different guy from above) found the 0.19% and changed it to 0.15%, which is indeed what the dilution should be. I looked at it, and went, "Huh, I'm really sure the paperwork said 0.19%," but I had gotten the 0.15% right on the other cups, and the paperwork was nowhere to be found, so he just kept assuring me that it was no big deal, just a little mistake. Whereas, I wanted to make sure that the paperwork wasn't wrong on some pages and right on others, because I used different pages for the different cups. He just kept explaining that it was okay, I just made a mistake, it happens, no matter how much I insisted that I was pretty sure the paperwork was wrong. Not too surprised when I was making dilutions the next day and found that the pages that I would have used for the 0.19% cups sure enough had had the wrong information caught and corrected by another coworker. I didn't get the satisfaction of being told I was right, but I still felt satisfaction in knowing it.

What I find interesting about this is a) in all three cases it was guys who didn't believe me, and b) no matter how sure I was that I was right, the guys did manage to insist enough that I started to doubt myself, even though they were bold in their certainty that they were correct until I proved them wrong.

Night_Writer
06-06-2017, 01:29 AM
I just came across this very public display of mansplaining:

https://www.facebook.com/marilee.talkington/posts/10155051385188961

What's especially noteworthy about this is that the mansplainer was himself a moderator on a panel discussion. It's a moderator's job to make sure that everyone gets a chance to talk, and that no one hogs the conversation.

Dude needs to learn something about moderating.

MDSchafer
06-06-2017, 02:49 AM
Whenever I go to a convention I just cringe when I hear a male panelist say, "I think what she meant was..."

mccardey
06-06-2017, 02:50 AM
It always comes down to listening, doesn't it? When speaking is so much more fun.

SWest
06-06-2017, 03:05 AM
Except when it's time to point out in full view of a large crowd that behaviors have become anti-social. Then it's quiet time.

mccardey
06-06-2017, 03:08 AM
Except when it's time to point out in full view of a large crowd that behaviors have become anti-social. Then it's quiet time. Yes, that's true. It gets very quiet then. Eerie, isn't it?

SWest
06-06-2017, 03:13 AM
Well, crowds have been known to turn on expressions of conscience.

Still. Being pilloried would make one's point...

:Shrug:

CathleenT
06-06-2017, 04:10 AM
It always comes down to listening, doesn't it? When speaking is so much more fun.

There might be something to this. When I got my psychology degree (in the Eighties, in case this info has been superseded by more current research), we were taught that as a group (this says nothing about individuals), preschool girls had better listening and interpersonal skills than boys, and this continued through to adulthood.

It might help to digest this. If it's still true, that would put men as a group at a disadvantage when it comes to listening skills. Not that this absolves them from making the appropriate effort. It helps me, patience-wise, to realize that something is harder for someone else than it is for me.

***

Okay, now for my anecdote. My husband and I own a construction company. This was never my goal in life, but I must admit it pays the bills better than teaching ever did.

It's not fun being the lone woman on the jobsite, but usually it's even worse when I'm almost the only one. Most of the time I can't even get a key to the woman's job johnny out of a secretary. Apparently, since I'm dirty, (waterproofing is incredibly messy, and sandblasting ain't much better), I don't count. God forbid their clean little backsides should touch the same seat as mine, even though everyone I know always lines the seat in a public restroom.

Then there are the men. I've had to fire guys because they couldn't take direction from a woman. I don't have an ax to grind in this area, but there's no such thing as almost waterproofed. It's like roofing in that way. If your roof leaks in the corner, typically you aren't happy that it isn't the whole thing, especially if you just paid a great deal of money to have it done properly. Compound this with the fact that many of our jobs are below grade. To fix a roof, you climb on top. To fix below-grade waterproofing, first you have to get out the 'dozer, ripping out all the landscaping, etc. I can't afford mistakes. It's perfect or it's no good. It has to be done my way because it's my ass on the line. (And, y'know, because we've looked up the specs and we don't cut corners.) But there are some men who just can't take this.

What's really amusing are the superintendents who can't believe I'm in charge. They always want to talk to one of my employees. I hate dealing with that crap anyway (I skip out of every job meeting I can--they're about the most inefficient use of time there is.) So, fine. Let a man explain waterproofing to the guy running the job. I'd rather get some work done. I get paid by the foot. Fortunately, all our areas of expertise are ones that I can compete or outperform the men in, barring heavy lifting, because they're all about skill. One of my employees, Dan, got really embarrassed by this. But he knew his stuff, so I told him I had no problems with it. I didn't have to deal with some guy who couldn't wrap his head around thinking that a woman might know her own trade better than he does. (Almost no general contractors self-perform waterproofing. They typically take the carpentry and concrete work.) And waterproofing is often a poorly understood trade. Much of the time, I have to teach the inspectors how to inspect me.

It's just part of my life, and I deal with it. It does help to remember that I'm getting paid more than most superintendents, and we're rarely on a given job for very long. :)

ETA: I thought I should add a codicil to this. A few guys have been very supportive, even protective of me. On one jobsite, Sean was my six-foot-four tattooed guardian angel. He dropped his tool belt and told a guy who gave me much more than the common rash of crap to either shut up or wade in. (That was such a beautiful day. I made Sean a main character in one of my stories for it, set on a jobsite and all. https://cathleentownsend.com/2016/07/19/tool-thief/)

So it isn't all one way. I don't want to leave you with the impression that all guys on construction sites are jerks.

RightHoJeeves
06-06-2017, 04:42 AM
Here's a good example:

A guy I know patiently explained to my girlfriend and his own girlfriend that cat calling women on the street "wasn't offensive".

The really funny thing was when my girlfriend told him he was mansplaining he told her he was offended by that term and he wanted an apology.

mccardey
06-06-2017, 04:43 AM
Here's a good example:

A guy I know patiently explained to my girlfriend and his own girlfriend that cat calling women on the street "wasn't offensive".

The really funny thing was when my girlfriend told him he was mansplaining he told her he was offended by that term and he wanted an apology. I have had the same discussion with that guy.

Unless *gasp* there are two of them.

Ari Meermans
06-06-2017, 05:09 AM
Here's a good example:

A guy I know patiently explained to my girlfriend and his own girlfriend that cat calling women on the street "wasn't offensive".

The really funny thing was when my girlfriend told him he was mansplaining he told her he was offended by that term and he wanted an apology.


I have had the same discussion with that guy.

Unless, *gasp* there are two of them.

*The guffaws were loud on this side of the screen, y'all.*

That's just below "Naw, that didn't hurt" on my list. But what's kind of scary about that to me is that they apparently don't listen to themselves, either.

kuwisdelu
06-06-2017, 05:30 AM
There might be something to this. When I got my psychology degree (in the Eighties, in case this info has been superseded by more current research), we were taught that as a group (this says nothing about individuals), preschool girls had better listening and interpersonal skills than boys, and this continued through to adulthood.

It might help to digest this. If it's still true, that would put men as a group at a disadvantage when it comes to listening skills. Not that this absolves them from making the appropriate effort. It helps me, patience-wise, to realize that something is harder for someone else than it is for me.

I imagine much of this is learned based on cultural expectations rather than innate.

It's frustrating and self-perpetuating.

Albedo
06-06-2017, 05:34 AM
I have had the same discussion with that guy.

Unless, *gasp* there are two of them.
Nah, that guy's just Todd. We all know Todd. We really can't take him anywhere.

RightHoJeeves
06-06-2017, 05:48 AM
I have had the same discussion with that guy.

Unless *gasp* there are two of them.

I always bring him up in discussions about mansplaining because he's just the perfect example.


That's just below "Naw, that didn't hurt" on my list. But what's kind of scary about that to me is that they apparently don't listen to themselves, either.

Yeah. He's also a libertarian, and seems incapable of understanding a perspective different that his own. I've also heard him explain how businesses should be able to refuse service on racial grounds, because then consumers would be able to "vote with their dollar" and go elsewhere.

You can try and explain to him that because he's in the absolute upper levels of privilege (seriously, he's the son of a judge), that maybe he's looking at things in too narrow a view. But such a suggestion only seems to offend him. Oh well. I've never met a libertarian who actually stands to lose anything in their weird government-less utopia.

Roxxsmom
06-06-2017, 05:52 AM
Others have done a great job of defining and providing examples. I do want to add that there are situations where someone who is outside a situation, or who has advanced training or technical knowledge, can know more about something than someone who is embroiled in it, or at least such a person might have an objectivity, knowledge, or perspective that someone very close to a situation lacks at the time. I had an argument with my mom a while back that the spider and web she saw under her desk some time ago couldn't have been a brown recluse, because 1. Lots of spiders are brown and have "violins" on their thoraxes, 2. I know that brown recluses don't live in her area, and 3. That species doesn't weave funnel webs. From her reaction, I think she thought I was "arachnosplaining." I do run into this kind of thing pretty often (as a biologist).

BUT it's common for someone to assume they know better what it's like to experience something they're incapable of experiencing. And there's a world of difference between arguing about possible reasons for something and arguing about whether or not someone has experienced it at all (or that their feelings or memories of something are false). I don't deny that there was a large, weird-looking, brown spider under my mom's desk.

One I can think of of "mansplaining" would be when a male family member and I got in a discussion about whether or not a female character in a popular movie was realistic or not. He said she felt like a "man in a female body" to him, while I disagreed. He had every right to feel that she didn't mesh with the women he'd been close to in his life, but when he started to tell me how no woman would ever X, Y, or Z, it crossed that line, imo.

Another was when a bunch of friends were talking about pregnancy and its less pleasant side effects. One woman in the group said that she wasn't keen on having kids, partially because she hated being sick to her stomach and couldn't imagine anything worse that feeling sick and throwing up for weeks on end. A male person said that so-called morning sickness was overstated, and his wife (who was sitting right there) hadn't been very ill at all. His wife chimed in with, "No, I was pretty sick for a few weeks, especially with (name of second child). Don't you remember how miserable I was?" He actually argued with her a bit about her own experience.

travelgal
06-06-2017, 08:52 AM
Rox, that reminds me of Tom Cruise denigrating Brooke Shields for having such severe post-natal depression, she was suicidal.

That hubby deserved a smack in the face. I hope the wife banished him to the couch. I bet the child-leery decided hell would freeze first before having any, after witnessing the jerk invalidate his wife's experiences.

Men don't know crap about pregnancy, childbirth and its aftermath. They just think they do. Which leads to other examples: first time mothers' concerns about their kid being dismissed because they are first time mothers. This happened to my sister; she knew her daughter had something wrong with her kidneys, but it took months for her to find out the kid had inherited a rare defect from her father.

Males aren't always to blame; sometimes it's female doctors because they're more "educated" than the patient, but I digress.

L.C. Blackwell
06-06-2017, 09:22 AM
ETA: I thought I should add a codicil to this. A few guys have been very supportive, even protective of me. On one jobsite, Sean was my six-foot-four tattooed guardian angel. He dropped his tool belt and told a guy who gave me much more than the common rash of crap to either shut up or wade in. (That was such a beautiful day. I made Sean a main character in one of my stories for it, set on a jobsite and all. https://cathleentownsend.com/2016/07/19/tool-thief/)

So it isn't all one way. I don't want to leave you with the impression that all guys on construction sites are jerks.

I've worked with some wonderful guys in my time, and relatively few jerks, but one of my favorite memories is of a co-worker on his third job or so, and being in his seventies. Definitely WWII vintage, and the best of the gallant old school.

One day, an employee outside the building's open door--we were a subcontractor--apparently shouted something highly inappropriate, because "Hank," bless him, yelled back, "You shut your #*#* mouth! There's a lady in here!"

I miss that breed. They are getting rare. And the world is not going to be a better place when they are gone.

Putputt
06-06-2017, 09:40 AM
Another was when a bunch of friends were talking about pregnancy and its less pleasant side effects. One woman in the group said that she wasn't keen on having kids, partially because she hated being sick to her stomach and couldn't imagine anything worse that feeling sick and throwing up for weeks on end. A male person said that so-called morning sickness was overstated, and his wife (who was sitting right there) hadn't been very ill at all. His wife chimed in with, "No, I was pretty sick for a few weeks, especially with (name of second child). Don't you remember how miserable I was?" He actually argued with her a bit about her own experience.


Rox, that reminds me of Tom Cruise denigrating Brooke Shields for having such severe post-natal depression, she was suicidal.

That hubby deserved a smack in the face. I hope the wife banished him to the couch. I bet the child-leery decided hell would freeze first before having any, after witnessing the jerk invalidate his wife's experiences.

Men don't know crap about pregnancy, childbirth and its aftermath. They just think they do. Which leads to other examples: first time mothers' concerns about their kid being dismissed because they are first time mothers. This happened to my sister; she knew her daughter had something wrong with her kidneys, but it took months for her to find out the kid had inherited a rare defect from her father.

Males aren't always to blame; sometimes it's female doctors because they're more "educated" than the patient, but I digress.

Ugghh, yeaaa the mansplaining that comes with pregnancy and childbirth is incredible. One of my cousins, when she was in labor and in much pain, asked to be given an epidural. Apparently she'd discussed this at length prior to the delivery date with her male doctor, who seemed okay with epidurals. But when she actually asked for one, he said, "Oh you can take it, the pain really isn't that bad." She screamed, "HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW???" He laughed and insisted it's really not that bad, he's done this for twenty years now, and women are troopers, they always do much better than they give themselves credit for blah blah blah. She ended up giving birth without an epidural, and is pretty traumatized by the whole experience. But what do we know what about giving birth, all we have to do is the actual thing...

heykatydid
06-06-2017, 10:12 AM
Ugghh, yeaaa the mansplaining that comes with pregnancy and childbirth is incredible. One of my cousins, when she was in labor and in much pain, asked to be given an epidural. Apparently she'd discussed this at length prior to the delivery date with her male doctor, who seemed okay with epidurals. But when she actually asked for one, he said, "Oh you can take it, the pain really isn't that bad." She screamed, "HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW???" He laughed and insisted it's really not that bad, he's done this for twenty years now, and women are troopers, they always do much better than they give themselves credit for blah blah blah. She ended up giving birth without an epidural, and is pretty traumatized by the whole experience. But what do we know what about giving birth, all we have to do is the actual thing...

And somewhat related, I recently had a male coworker try to explain to me what I should be doing to deal with my extremely debilitating (vomiting, passing out, etc.) menstrual cramps. I was floored. He had no frame of reference at all, but still thought he knew better than me. That one honestly surprised me - never had THAT happen before!

M Louise
06-06-2017, 03:33 PM
When mansplaining veers off into manterpreting.

I am asked about something by a male friend and give my reasonably informed opinion. The man standing next to me then says, 'I think what M is trying to say is...' and restates everything I just said, badly. Because only a man can really get the point across to another man. Because women speak a language that isn't quite Manglish.

Ari Meermans
06-06-2017, 06:05 PM
And sometimes when they don't mangle it. It's happened even here to me: I'll say something—usually on a subject like this one—several posts later a guy comes along and posts essentially the same thing (almost verbatim). Second guy comes along several posts later, quotes him, and says "I hadn't looked at it that way. Now it makes sense." http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u12/Lisbet_bucket/waiting.gif~original

cornflake
06-06-2017, 06:21 PM
Rox, that reminds me of Tom Cruise denigrating Brooke Shields for having such severe post-natal depression, she was suicidal.

That hubby deserved a smack in the face. I hope the wife banished him to the couch. I bet the child-leery decided hell would freeze first before having any, after witnessing the jerk invalidate his wife's experiences.

Men don't know crap about pregnancy, childbirth and its aftermath. They just think they do. Which leads to other examples: first time mothers' concerns about their kid being dismissed because they are first time mothers. This happened to my sister; she knew her daughter had something wrong with her kidneys, but it took months for her to find out the kid had inherited a rare defect from her father.

Males aren't always to blame; sometimes it's female doctors because they're more "educated" than the patient, but I digress.

I can't believe I'm about to type this, but the Tom Cruise thing had to do more with his, er, religious beliefs than anything. He doesn't believe in psychology, or psychological disorders of any sort. He'd have told anyone they didn't actually have any psychological issue, because it's all just that you don't understand it's about your lack of being clear -- which, for the low, low price of.... the Church of Scientology can help you with.

Also, aren't most doctors more educated than their patients? Heh.

JimmyB27
06-06-2017, 06:31 PM
Men don't know crap about pregnancy, childbirth and its aftermath.

I know enough to know that I don't want to know anymore, and I'm bloody glad there's no chance of me ever experiencing it.

RedRajah
06-06-2017, 06:47 PM
Ugghh, yeaaa the mansplaining that comes with pregnancy and childbirth is incredible. One of my cousins, when she was in labor and in much pain, asked to be given an epidural. Apparently she'd discussed this at length prior to the delivery date with her male doctor, who seemed okay with epidurals. But when she actually asked for one, he said, "Oh you can take it, the pain really isn't that bad." She screamed, "HOW THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW???" He laughed and insisted it's really not that bad, he's done this for twenty years now, and women are troopers, they always do much better than they give themselves credit for blah blah blah. She ended up giving birth without an epidural, and is pretty traumatized by the whole experience. But what do we know what about giving birth, all we have to do is the actual thing...

There is a device that actually simulates labor pains out there. And yes,it can be applied on men. It's not fun. I think it would behoove every man who thinks they know best (doctors and sperms donors both) to be put through this device before they open their damn mouths...

Silva
06-06-2017, 11:28 PM
There is a device that actually simulates labor pains out there. And yes,it can be applied on men. It's not fun. I think it would behoove every man who thinks they know best (doctors and sperms donors both) to be put through this device before they open their damn mouths...

Every now and again a video demonstration pops up in my social media and I wind up laughing hysterically at the dude it's been demonstrated on as he goes from being slightly nervous but "this can't hurt THAT bad" to rolling around, just about crying in pain. It's just so delightfully vindicating.

At the same time I know that birth experiences vary, so you can't judge other people's reactions by your own experiences, whether your experience was actual birth or simulated contractions. I don't want dudes to think that because they had this simulated experience, they now know exactly what any given woman in labor is experiencing and she should listen to his advice on what the best way to cope is. Because of course some would do that. :rolleyes

Kmaster28
06-07-2017, 12:32 AM
Although the word was kind of intuitive by itself, I'd never heard the term before. A bit sexist, no? Do only men do this?

Unimportant
06-07-2017, 12:39 AM
Although the word was kind of intuitive by itself, I'd never heard the term before. A bit sexist, no? Do only men do this?
the point is that, yes, it is a sexist behaviour.

Have you ever heard a man complain about how his testicle hair gets caught in his jockstrap, and a woman correct him and say that it doesn't happen, she's never had it happen to her, and therefore his complaints are invalid?

eqb
06-07-2017, 01:30 AM
Although the word was kind of intuitive by itself, I'd never heard the term before. A bit sexist, no? Do only men do this?

Perhaps reading the thread would help?

lizmonster
06-07-2017, 01:38 AM
Do only men do this?

I'm gonna go with yes.

mccardey
06-07-2017, 01:45 AM
Although the word was kind of intuitive by itself, I'd never heard the term before. A bit sexist, no? Do only men do this? Lovely that you could drop by :) Pull up a chair, and listen and learn from people who've understood mansplaining before the word was ever coined.

Ari Meermans
06-07-2017, 02:07 AM
Although the word was kind of intuitive by itself, I'd never heard the term before. A bit sexist, no? Do only men do this?

Mansplaining is when a man explains something to a woman—usually, something she already knows or is in a position to know more about than he does—because he believes he knows more about it simply because he's a man. As indicated in the thread, those men even do this wrt the woman's profession, her particular area of expertise, or on matters that affect only women (such as childbirth).

So, no. While the act of mansplaining is sexist, calling him on it isn't.

Yes, only men do it.

Everybody all caught up, now?

Night_Writer
06-07-2017, 02:17 AM
I once had a male friend ask me for directions. He had to get to a highway in order to get back home from a party. He actually asked me, a woman. Rather big of him. Anyway, I gave him the directions, which were fairly easy.

A few days later, I spoke to him again, and he said he got lost. I said that the directions were pretty simple. And he said that he had driven in the opposite direction that I had told him to go. And he had done it on purpose. I asked him why he would do that, and he said it's because women are always wrong. So he did the opposite of what I said.

So I asked him, if you're not going to listen to me, then why ask me in the first place? And he said, it was so he could do the opposite of what I told him.

Even he admitted that when he got lost, he got what he deserved. Although I think he deserved a little worse than that.

I doubt he's learned anything. I kinda hope he hasn't, actually. And no, we're no longer friends.

Cindyt
06-07-2017, 03:48 AM
I have a half-blood sister, Mama's child, not dad's. But my stepmother for some weird reason insists the half-blood is daddy's biological child--never mind stepmom wasn't even in the picture until the mid 70s.

L.C. Blackwell
06-07-2017, 08:21 AM
I have a half-blood sister, Mama's child, not dad's. But my stepmother for some weird reason insists the half-blood is daddy's biological child--never mind stepmom wasn't even in the picture until the mid 70s.

Illogic doesn't have a gender. :D

It does occur to me to add some observations here, mostly because some of our much-valued male members may be feeling like worms at a hen party, and rigorously examining their consciences.

In my experience, a guy who respects other people in general, who is able to sympathize with other viewpoints, and who isn't stuck on himself, is almost never guilty. The guilty parties have a few things in common:

A) The universe rises and sets around them. Like other people with a narcissistic stripe, they have to be the center of attention.

B) They think everyone, black or white, male or female, gay or straight, is exactly like them, and must feel the same way about everything. (Side note: I have seen a number of females guilty of this one. It's not a gender thing. If you don't believe me, go through a few recipe books with largely female contributors. A frequently recurring comment is "I know you'll love this recipe as much as I do," without a clue that such things as vegetarians and vegans exist, and that no, some people don't love hot sauce and horseradish.)

C) They often have an undeveloped or underdeveloped intellect, and seem to develop issues regarding adequacy. They need somebody to pad that poor ego, and soothe it with appreciation. This is where the touchiness comes in. Baby is still the center of his own universe, and he's clinging to it for all he's worth.

Fellas, if you're even concerned about the fact that mansplaining exists, or that you might have inadvertently sinned in this way, you are probably not the people we are looking for with pitchforks. Those people don't know. They don't care. They don't have a clue. They don't want to be given one, because if somebody does give them one, they don't have the intellectual capacity or the imagination to grasp it anyway.

If you were taught to say "yes, sir," and "no, ma'am" and work hard and respect your Mama, and don't think you know it all, let me shake your hand, because we're going to get along just fine. And that's all.

*gets off soap box*

Helix
06-07-2017, 08:30 AM
(Side note: I have seen a number of females guilty of this one. It's not a gender thing. If you don't believe me, go through a few recipe books with largely female contributors. A frequently recurring comment is "I know you'll love this recipe as much as I do," without a clue that such things as vegetarians and vegans exist, and that no, some people don't love hot sauce and horseradish.)

I, for one, would love to spend money on a recipe book where every recipe is prefaced with, "I think this tastes like shit, but I'm including it because YMMV."

be frank
06-07-2017, 08:55 AM
I, for one, would love to spend money on a recipe book where every recipe is prefaced with, "I think this tastes like shit, but I'm including it because YMMV."

I'm happy to write one and sell it to you...

L.C. Blackwell
06-07-2017, 09:00 AM
I'm happy to write one and sell it to you...

The new AW member-written collection....

cornflake
06-07-2017, 09:26 AM
I, for one, would love to spend money on a recipe book where every recipe is prefaced with, "I think this tastes like shit, but I'm including it because YMMV."

Don't you eat worms?

Helix
06-07-2017, 09:34 AM
Don't you eat worms?

This is true.

And when I had lunch at one of favourite cafes the other day, the lady who runs it pointed to the nasturtium flowers in the salad and said, 'Picked those this morning. They were crawling with ants. Sometimes they taste shit.' I wasn't quite sure if she meant the nasturtiums (which I like) or the ants (some of which I also like*). Anyway, it all tasted delish.

* For accuracy, only green tree ants and honeypot ants. We get neither where I live.

Albedo
06-07-2017, 10:08 AM
I've got one of those old, old Women's Weekly cookbooks, circa 1968. It's all jellied sweetbreads in aspic, and things even less edible-sounding. There's a whole chapter of variations on meatloaf. It's great. I wanna throw you all a dinner party where nothing is good.

Helix
06-07-2017, 10:09 AM
I've got one of those old, old Women's Weekly cookbooks, circa 1968. It's all jellied sweetbreads in aspic, and things even less edible-sounding. There's a whole chapter of variations on meatloaf. It's great. I wanna throw you all a dinner party where nothing is good.

We'll be there!

^Curlewsplainin'

cornflake
06-07-2017, 10:11 AM
I assume everyone on the Internets has seen these, but if not, you must. They're ... amazing (http://www.candyboots.com/wwcards.html). For your party.

Be sure to click on each one to savour the descriptions!


Once upon a time the world was young and the words "mackerel" and "pudding" existed far, far away from one another.

One day, that all changed. And then, whoever was responsible somehow thought the word fluffy would help.

mccardey
06-07-2017, 10:16 AM
I've got one of those old, old Women's Weekly cookbooks, circa 1968. It's all jellied sweetbreads in aspic, and things even less edible-sounding. There's a whole chapter of variations on meatloaf. It's great. I wanna throw you all a dinner party where nothing is good.
I would come to that dinner party and I would bring my chickens.

Albedo
06-07-2017, 10:17 AM
I assume everyone on the Internets has seen these, but if not, you must. They're ... amazing (http://www.candyboots.com/wwcards.html). For your party.

Be sure to click on each one to savour the descriptions!
Yes! This is the exact sort of I-can't-believe-this-was-once-considered-food that's in my cookbook. Man, the past was a different planet.

mccardey
06-07-2017, 10:18 AM
male members

Stop giggling, that boy down the back

:granny:

Albedo
06-07-2017, 10:19 AM
I would come to that dinner party and I would bring my chickens.
But are they Chicken-Italian Style? (Ref: whole roast chicken coated in red stuff that may or may not be tomato paste)

be frank
06-07-2017, 11:02 AM
I would come to that dinner party and I would bring my chickens.

Is that a euphemism?

mccardey
06-07-2017, 11:05 AM
Is that a euphemism?Well if it is, its a whole lot less obvious than male members, let me tell you.

be frank
06-07-2017, 11:07 AM
Well if it is, its a whole lot less obvious than male members, let me tell you.

It's all in the tone. :)

RichardGarfinkle
06-07-2017, 11:18 AM
I would come to that dinner party and I would bring my chickens.


Is that a euphemism?


Well if it is, its a whole lot less obvious than male members, let me tell you.

"Rooster" splainin on farmyard egalitarianism:
There ain't nobody here but us chickens.

Alessandra Kelley
06-07-2017, 12:49 PM
I've got one of those old, old Women's Weekly cookbooks, circa 1968. It's all jellied sweetbreads in aspic, and things even less edible-sounding. There's a whole chapter of variations on meatloaf. It's great. I wanna throw you all a dinner party where nothing is good.

I have a shelf of those books from the 1920s through the 1960s, from earnest Home Economics professors selling kitchen science through little homemaker manuals to keep women occupied to glazed and glossy garishly colored food porn to gods know what.

I take a look at them whenever I am tempted to fall into the folly of thinking that just with simple quality ingredients and basic cooking techniques you can't help but end up with something good and tasty.

Broadswordbabe
06-07-2017, 02:33 PM
Omigod, those recipes. I particularly love 'inspiration soup'.
Re: mansplaining - a recent incident involved a chap explaining to me what the Latin saying on my t shirt meant. Since I was the one wearing it, and the one who had taken the martial arts course to which it referred, and also the one who took Latin in school, all of which I told him, you'd think he'd stop telling me. But no. Because under the t shirt were bosoms, and thus Explanation (not once but four times) was obviously required.

Lissibith
06-07-2017, 05:01 PM
I feel like the thinking about your audience and listening are really the keys to avoid mansplaining.

I've had my share of mansplaining about any number of things, but the place in my life it REALLY cropped up was in the comics fandom. For some reason, among a lot of men there was (and still is to an extent among older men) that women never read comics until like the 2000's and that it's a new phenomenon. Which made going places where comics nerds gathered an endurance test.

There's a local comic shop here that's run by a woman (mostly closed now due to life crap, sadly) because she got so sick of being talked down to, second-guessed and belittled in the normal comic shops (she'd been buying and reading comics since the late 60's) that she wanted to run her own and make sure it was staffed with people who would never treat women that way.

And to her credit, she did - the staff (including my sister) was a delight. The customers, alas, were not always. I only went in 2-3 times a month, but always at least one of those 2-3 times, there would be a man who would decide to explain the plot of a book I was looking at (instead of listening when I say I know, or even thinking about why someone might be buying issue 27 in said series). Or they would helpfully try to suggest books I might like - Archie seemed to be a popular one for some reason, god help me, despite my armful of regular superhero books or sci-fi books.

As bad as it was for me, it was worse for my sister and her female coworkers, because a lot of the dudes coming into the place seemed to see it as their solemn duty to expose how the woman working at the comic shop was Wrong. So this particular breed of guy would ask questions to try to catch them out, and launch into lecture mode when the answer was "wrong" - which they weren't always right about.

Man, I remember being at a comics convention in the very early 2000's (2001 I think), talking with a female friend about Batman. Specifically, we were talking about how Batman indeed used to kill people in the early days of his comics. It was my first comic convention (I'd volunteered at an anime one before but that was it) and I was having a lot of fun... and then the mansplaining happened. A guy butted in to tell us how Batman never killed people on purpose, giving me this disappointed "how could you lie to her" look. And I said, actually, he did, I've read some of the books. He - who hadn't read any Batman that old and admitted so - nonetheless continued lecturing me on the topic and how wrong I was.

The weirdest part of that particular event was that after a minute, as myself and my friend were trying to extricate ourselves politely from the lecture, another guy walked over - someone I knew in passing from the anime convention but wasn't really friends with. He steps into the conversation and basically backs me up. Says, she's right. He did used to be like that. *immediately* the lecturing and know-it-all tone was gone. "Oh, wow, really? I didn't know that." Guy *completely* cuts me and my friend out of the conversation to engage with the newcomer on this *brand new information* about Batman that no one (worth listening to) had ever told him before. Ruined the convention for me. Was years before I hit another comics-based one.

And it's sad. I mean, it's frustrating and demeaning at the time that it happens, but I think worse is the effect it can have on women long-term. Like... in comics spaces, I can now get super defensive when people are questioning something I'm sure I know, even when their question doesn't warrant that sort of response. My sister, I feel worse about. She doesn't like to engage with people about comics *at all* unless she knows them well, because she got so used to customers at that comic shop asking what she reads and then explaining why it's garbage (even when they hadn't read all of it, or sometimes ANY of it), or asking if she reads what they do and telling her why she was wrong for spending her time reading other stuff instead of what they liked. It's sad to me, because she is so passionate about the medium (she has been creating webcomics for almost two decades) but when talking to strangers about it, she just pre-emptively shuts down.

Sorry... that got a little away from me...

Maryn
06-07-2017, 05:17 PM
BTW, I looked up guys trying those labor simulation devices. It was a hoot.

Maryn, who was braver

kuwisdelu
06-07-2017, 06:51 PM
or on matters that affect only women (such as childbirth).

Well, to be fair, some men have given birth.


And he said that he had driven in the opposite direction that I had told him to go. And he had done it on purpose. I asked him why he would do that, and he said it's because women are always wrong. So he did the opposite of what I said.

Wow.

kuwisdelu
06-07-2017, 06:57 PM
I love the mansplanations and whitesplanations about why something isn't actually offensive, and I'm wrong to think it's sexist or racist or whatever.

Oh wait, no. Those are the worst, actually.


My sister, I feel worse about. She doesn't like to engage with people about comics *at all* unless she knows them well, because she got so used to customers at that comic shop asking what she reads and then explaining why it's garbage (even when they hadn't read all of it, or sometimes ANY of it), or asking if she reads what they do and telling her why she was wrong for spending her time reading other stuff instead of what they liked. It's sad to me, because she is so passionate about the medium (she has been creating webcomics for almost two decades) but when talking to strangers about it, she just pre-emptively shuts down.

I'm a lot like that. Although more with things like anime than comics. There's a lot I love and know, but I tend to avoid a lot of fandoms because they're just toxic.

I was nervous about it when I went to my first anime convention, but I went almost exclusively to the queer and women's panels and it was pretty great.

People can get scary when you point out problematic elements of their favorite show, even when you're not trying to say they can't enjoy it, even when I enjoy it too.

Ari Meermans
06-07-2017, 07:01 PM
or on matters that affect only women (such as childbirth).
Well, to be fair, some men have given birth.


heh. That's generally not going to be the case. just sayin'

shakeysix
06-07-2017, 07:44 PM
With Father's Day coming up I am reminded of one of our legendary anti-mansplaining maneuvers.

In September of 2004 my 26 year old daughter called to tell me she was pregnant. My daughter was going through her student teaching at the time. Student teaching is something of a hassle--you work a 40 hour week but with no pay, no benefits. On top of this, there is tuition and books, room and board. I had taken out a hefty personal loan to finance the semester and knew that when daughter graduated in December, she would get a job and help me repay the loan. The pregnancy was a shock. I did not even know she had a boyfriend. He had never had a job in his life and did not want to tell his mother because he knew she would make him get one.

My daughter made one of the wisest decisions of her up till then, not so wise life. No way was she going to marry the guy because she did not want two babies to care for. She decided that she would be able to support a baby once she found a full time teaching job. The baby was due the first of June. We decided, talking together, that she would complete the semester, then come home to live with me, after graduation, until she found a teaching job. (Which she did, almost immediately.) Teaching jobs don't start until late August--no pay until mid September-- so she and the baby would live with me until then. It was a well thought out plan. Her sisters knew the situation as did her aunt--my sister.

We decided, the females of the family, unanimously, not to tell my dad and brother who lived in a town about 90 miles away. It all hinged on mansplaining. We knew that any baby would eventually be welcomed, but there would be tedious hours of well intentioned, but stupid advice, pity, sympathy, questioning, sighing, hand wringing etc.

In December, immediately after graduating, Daughter moved home to live with me. Daughter stands 4'11 and was able to pull off Christmas and Easter dinners with sweaters and baggy jeans. I did get an earful in lectures from my dad and brother about my "control" issues. They believed that I was keeping my daughter at home from selfish issues. I was called" over controlling" and told to cut the apron strings, that it was ridiculous to demand that my daughter live with me and not on her own. I was accused of being lonely and desperate because my husband had died and I was all alone in the world. (I WISH!)

We didn't say anything because we were used to the guff they spew but it was frustrating. As the situation and Daughter, grew, it was harder and harder to hide the pregnancy.

Fortunately we don't see each other all that often between holidays. Mother's Day is a non-holiday because my mother died forty years ago. The baby was born on June 3. We could not think of a way to break the news to those two, so, on Father's Day, I invited them to the usual dinner at my house. One change--there was a bassinet with a newborn baby girl in the living room when they arrived. When my dad asked me why he wasn't told, I said, "you didn't notice she was pregnant? We thought everyone knew!" They were too busy arguing over holding the baby to say much after that. --s6

Venavis
06-07-2017, 09:55 PM
When mansplaining veers off into manterpreting.

I am asked about something by a male friend and give my reasonably informed opinion. The man standing next to me then says, 'I think what M is trying to say is...' and restates everything I just said, badly. Because only a man can really get the point across to another man. Because women speak a language that isn't quite Manglish.

I wish that wasn't true, but my male friends have occasionally had to repeat something my female friends have said because some guy just wasn't listening to them. Usually though it's at the request of the women and is along the lines of 'what she's trying to say is fuck off and leave her alone'.

Part of it I think stems from if a man stands his ground he's being all manly and things are going as normal, but if a woman stands her ground she's being a bitch and in the wrong and so it's okay to just walk over whatever she's saying because she's not being 'nice'.

I've noticed a major difference in how I'm treated based on how I'm presenting on a given day. It's so ingrained that people who know me treat me differently based on how I'm presenting on a given day.

Maryn
06-07-2017, 10:01 PM
This makes me wonder if I've been offensive when I've Marynsplained something to someone who clearly isn't comprehending what the speaker is trying to tell them. Showin' my Marynprivilege and all...

Cyia
06-07-2017, 10:05 PM
I think we need to draw the line between clarification and mansplaining. If Random Dudebro restates your exact point in your exact field as though it's their own, new take, then that's mansplaining - it's condescending.

If Neil deGrasse Tyson corrects your ideas on the event horizon of a black hole and the gravity well it causes because you're a 3rd year TA and wrong, then you say thank you.

Ari Meermans
06-07-2017, 10:34 PM
Mansplaining is when a man explains something to a woman—usually, something she already knows or is in a position to know more about than he does—because he believes he knows more about it simply because he's a man. As indicated in the thread, those men even do this wrt the woman's profession, her particular area of expertise, or on matters that affect only women (such as childbirth).

So, no. While the act of mansplaining is sexist, calling him on it isn't.

Yes, only men do it.

Everybody all caught up, now?

There is always going to be someone who knows more about any topic, regardless of their gender. Maybe a better wording to "because he believes he knows more about it simply because he's a man" could have been something like "because he believes a woman's understanding is by nature inferior". Yeah, maybe so.

KTC
06-07-2017, 10:38 PM
There is always going to be someone who knows more about any topic, regardless of their gender. Maybe a better wording to "because he believes he knows more about it simply because he's a man" could have been something like "because he believes a woman's understanding is by nature inferior". Yeah, maybe so.

Yep. That's quite accurate. I used to bristle at the way this went on in my house when I was a kid. This is how I came to see women as the superiors of our species.

JimmyB27
06-07-2017, 11:41 PM
I think we need to draw the line between clarification and mansplaining. If Random Dudebro restates your exact point in your exact field as though it's their own, new take, then that's mansplaining - it's condescending.

If Neil deGrasse Tyson corrects your ideas on the event horizon of a black hole and the gravity well it causes because you're a 3rd year TA and wrong, then you say thank you.
In a similar vein, I would say it's also not mansplaining if you're merely forwarding the arguments from someone who does know. Although, I think you have to be careful to make it clear that that's what you're doing. And maybe framing your comments in such a way that you're not saying 'no, you're wrong', but more like, 'expert x says this other thing, why do you disagree?'.

AW Admin
06-11-2017, 07:24 PM
I'm just going to leave this here; it's well worth reading.

Panel moderator mansplains physics to an actual physicist. This audience member couldn't take it anymore. (https://www.someecards.com/news/women/mansplaining-scientist/)

Ari Meermans
06-11-2017, 09:37 PM
That was a strong, clear example of the issue and those types of examples are necessary, I think, for establishing an understanding of exactly what we're meaning when we talk about mansplaining. We've also seen examples around the web of men explaining articles, poems, and books to the women who wrote them. It's important to note, too, that women experience this as a near-daily occurence on matters large and small including having a man look into her grocery cart, ask what she's making, then proceed to tell her how to make it. (Yep, that's happened more than once.)

Regardless of the reasons behind the behavior, I find it odd behavior. Very odd.

Laer Carroll
06-12-2017, 12:00 AM
Regardless of the reasons behind [mansplaining], I find it odd behavior. Very odd.

In one of the links AW Admin gave in the first post to this thread the writer pointed out that MANsplaining is just one kind of a larger illness: the privileged talking down to the underprivileged.

I don't find it odd. It's all part of being privileged. It suppresses the underprivileged and at the same time affirms the rights of the privileged. It puts down and pushes up. Entirely natural, the way cancer is "natural."

So far there's been much discussion of WHAT splaining is. But little of HOW to avoid it.

I suspect all of us are guilty of it occasionally. I'm sure I am, and don't even know it. So maybe the first step for those of us who care to do better is just to be aware splaining exists. Then to try to be more aware of who we are talking to.

Maybe there are some symptoms, some ways of speaking, which signal when splaining is happening. Then we can re-write our posts, re-think our speech, before we put it into the world.

Help?

Ari Meermans
06-12-2017, 12:58 AM
In one of the links AW Admin gave in the first post to this thread the writer pointed out that MANsplaining is just one kind of a larger illness: the privileged talking down to the underprivileged.

I don't find it odd. It's all part of being privileged. It suppresses the underprivileged and at the same time affirms the rights of the privileged. It puts down and pushes up. Entirely natural, the way cancer is "natural."

So far there's been much discussion of WHAT splaining is. But little of HOW to avoid it.

I suspect all of us are guilty of it occasionally. I'm sure I am, and don't even know it. So maybe the first step for those of us who care to do better is just to be aware splaining exists. Then to try to be more aware of who we are talking to.

Maybe there are some symptoms, some ways of speaking, which signal when splaining is happening. Then we can re-write our posts, re-think our speech, before we put it into the world.

Help?

I googled "how not to mansplain" and got quite a list from Google. A quick scan shows some articles may be more helpful than others; this one "Hey Bros, Here’s 6 Tips To Avoid Mansplaining" (http://risenews.net/2015/09/hey-bros-heres-6-tips-to-avoid-mansplaining/) has a few good tips.

Some approaches I think might be helpful?

Ask "why do I want to participate in this conversation?" If it's to give yourself a chance to expound on your own knowledge, stop right there. You're already halfway down the path. BUT, if you find the discussion interesting, want to know more, and believe you have something to contribute; then,
Listen (or read). Assess the knowledge level of your audience and make no assumptions of knowledge based on gender; then,
Ask questions to further clarify knowledge levels. Heck, ask questions, anyway. Be curious. Commit to being a life-long learner.
Never, never use phrases like "You wouldn't understand" or "This is probably above your head . . ." (Also, watch your tone; one's tone can convey a wealth of meaning.)


Now, again, this is my opinion and I think anyone who does this more easily finds their footing in a conversation (in meatspace or online) and can contribute their knowledge in ways that are appreciated.

Zuluz
06-12-2017, 12:58 AM
[QUOTE=Tazlima; Lol, I wish I could say I was surprised.

These are egregious examples, of course, but mansplaining (and whitesplaining, and richsplaining) . . .



Before joining AW just a day ago, I had never even heard those terms--although I know I'm guilty of the first from time to time. But I'm guilty with a twist (maybe). If I think I know something about something, almost to a fault, I conclude with something like, "I could be wrong, though," or "...but you probably know more about that than I do." I'll end with that even if I have no clue whether the person knows anything about the particular subject at hand. You'd have to know me personally to know how true that is and how sincere I am when I say it.

So, I'm I truly guilty of mansplaining or have I found a work-around? :)


(sorry, I didn't capture the quote correctly)

Roxxsmom
06-12-2017, 01:09 AM
I don't think anyone is saying that it's "whatever" splaining to disagree with someone or to explain why. It's a matter of tone and context.

The problem with the term is that it can put people on the defensive. My husband, who really isn't a sexist guy at all, hates the term because he feels like it's sometimes used to end conversations and that expressing an opinion about anything related to sexism or a woman's work or experience is unacceptable for men. I don't see it that way, and he agrees that some of the examples out there, like the one in the book, "Men Explain Things to Me (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IWGQ8PU/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)," where a man at a party lectured a female author at length about an "important book in her field that she must read" when she herself had written said book (and which the man hadn't actually even read) are pretty egregious.

Or this one (http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2014/11/02/nr-catcall-video-goes-viral.cnn), where a male author on CNN tells a woman that "he knows more about what women like than women do" re street harassment/catcalling.

I don't know what to think sometimes. The term seems harmless enough to me, a useful meme that humorously encapsulates something most women (and other people too) experience all too often, but if it puts men on the defensive and makes them think we want to shut them down, then it's not making things better.



Maybe there are some symptoms, some ways of speaking, which signal when splaining is happening. Then we can re-write our posts, re-think our speech, before we put it into the world.

Help?

Hmm, I think the line is crossed in posts here on AW when a post reads more like a blog post or treatise than a question or the brainstorming of a story idea. Even when it's not an issue related to gender or identity, there's a certain line that feels crossed when a post reads as if someone is setting themselves up as some kind of guru, workshop leader, or instructor, rather than a fellow member who has an idea they want feedback on, or who is unclear about something.

Not that posts expressing strong opinions are bad, necessarily, but there's still a difference between stating it as an opinion, even a supported one, in a way that makes it clear it's just that and that one is open to other views and hoping to learn from them (versus seeking to "educate" everyone else about the issue).

That was what made me a bit uncomfortable with your post about the future of gender roles in the SFF section. If you'd worded it more like, "I'm writing a story with this underlying premise re future gender roles. Does this feel plausible to you guys?" It would have had a different tone entirely. For me, at least (I can't speak for the admins or other members here, of course).

This is just my two cents worth, of course. I can fall into being too lecture-ey too. I'm very used to being the only biologist in the room, for instance, in settings that aren't geared towards biologists. So I've sometimes been caught out over explaining something biological to someone who also has background in the life sciences. Likewise, I've had people do it to me (someone once told me I "needed to learn what convergent evolution was," for instance, in a thread where the plausibility of humanoid aliens came up in "hard" SF. That was a "sigh" moment.

I don't think it's always about gender, and it probably wasn't in that case (I don't even know if the person "lecturing" me about convergent evolution was male).

Ari Meermans
06-12-2017, 01:11 AM
[QUOTE=Tazlima; Lol, I wish I could say I was surprised.

These are egregious examples, of course, but mansplaining (and whitesplaining, and richsplaining) . . .

Before joining AW just a day ago, I had never even heard those terms--although I know I'm guilty of the first from time to time. But I'm guilty with a twist (maybe). If I think I know something about something, almost to a fault, I conclude with something like, "I could be wrong, though," or "...but you probably know more about that than I do." I'll end with that even if I have no clue whether the person knows anything about the particular subject at hand. You'd have to know me personally to know how true that is and how sincere I am when I say it.

So, I'm I truly guilty of mansplaining or have I found a work-around? :)


(sorry, I didn't capture the quote correctly)
heh. I have no answer for ya. Self-deprecation (or the appearance of it) is something I and many other women actively work to overcome.

I, personally, find it an attractive trait in a man if it's sincere wrt certain topics; if it's disingenuous . . . well, not so much.

Zuluz
06-12-2017, 01:47 AM
Roxxsmom and Ari Meermans,

Interesting topic. I have to admit that it's something that I had never thought about in any formal way, but I know it when I see it. Just didn't know it when I did it. Didn't know there was a name for it. Fortunately, I probably wouldn't be the first person to come to mind, amongst my friends, were there to be a discussion about who's guilty of mansplaining. Some of the examples put forth in this tread would be way beyond my comfort zone. The upshot, I'm glad I stumbled upon this. Having been educated on the subject, I can get rid of the "from time to time" that I mentioned.

Helix
06-12-2017, 03:58 AM
In one of the links AW Admin gave in the first post to this thread the writer pointed out that MANsplaining is just one kind of a larger illness: the privileged talking down to the underprivileged.

I don't find it odd. It's all part of being privileged. It suppresses the underprivileged and at the same time affirms the rights of the privileged. It puts down and pushes up. Entirely natural, the way cancer is "natural."

Well, cancer is the result of cellular malfunctions of all kinds. So your analogy would be that mansplaining is the result of social malfunctions, yes?


So far there's been much discussion of WHAT splaining is. But little of HOW to avoid it.

Surely the next step would be for those who mansplain is to make an effort to find out for themselves how not to manspalin.


I suspect all of us are guilty of it occasionally. I'm sure I am, and don't even know it. So maybe the first step for those of us who care to do better is just to be aware splaining exists. Then to try to be more aware of who we are talking to.

I would hope that being more aware of who we are talking to is a basic minimum for any conversation.


Maybe there are some symptoms, some ways of speaking, which signal when splaining is happening. Then we can re-write our posts, re-think our speech, before we put it into the world.

Help?

If only there was some great repository of knowledge we could connect to with a click of the mouse.

Venavis
06-12-2017, 04:48 AM
So far there's been much discussion of WHAT splaining is. But little of HOW to avoid it.

There is a fairly simple two step process to avoid 'splaining.

Step one - Shut up.
Step two - Listen.

If you are thinking about what you are going to say when the other person stops talking, you aren't listening. Go back to step one and start over.

Aggy B.
06-12-2017, 05:39 AM
Okay. So, today on Twitter I saw a thing related to a tweet the MLB made. (Photo of one of the super-plush baseball stadiums and #Goals.) And a woman responded with "i think you mean #runs", which was obviously a joke *and* a dig at mansplainers. To which a man then responded explaining to her that the #goals hashtag had been referring to the stadium as a kind of "lifegoal" that other stadiums should achieve, and also that she must be really stupid not to understand that.

So, if one were trying to avoid mansplaining, one might consider what factors would cause a man to ignore the obvious joke in order to "correct" a woman who is a stranger and call her stupid. It could be that he doesn't like the fact that she made a joke he wanted to make before he made it. It could be that he's upset because a woman knows something about a thing he has always thought was "his" domain (in this case baseball or sports). It could be he's an asshat and just wants to try and make someone look stupid.

But perhaps, if one is hoping to avoid being seen as a mansplainer, one could note when one has an instinct to jump into a conversation or lecture or article between/given by/written by a woman and tell her where she's "wrong". What underlying assumptions does one have? That she couldn't be making a joke because that requires intelligence? Or jealousy because she beat one to the punch? Or irritation that she actually knows something about this thing that you always thought you had insight on? That she is talking about this thing that one knows about but is talking about things within that thing that one doesn't know about?

Because mansplaining is more than just some chauvanistic attempt to be "helpful", it is an attempt to silence women and belittle their experience by not only saying that one knows more, but that even the woman in question doesn't understand what she's saying. Figuring out where that jealousy flares up will help one figure out how to "fix" it.

Xelebes
06-14-2017, 10:51 PM
Okay. So, today on Twitter I saw a thing related to a tweet the MLB made. (Photo of one of the super-plush baseball stadiums and #Goals.) And a woman responded with "i think you mean #runs", which was obviously a joke *and* a dig at mansplainers. To which a man then responded explaining to her that the #goals hashtag had been referring to the stadium as a kind of "lifegoal" that other stadiums should achieve, and also that she must be really stupid not to understand that.

So, if one were trying to avoid mansplaining, one might consider what factors would cause a man to ignore the obvious joke in order to "correct" a woman who is a stranger and call her stupid.

Wait, the dude fell for the straightman role. Job is done. The joke isn't as funny without the person falling into the straightman role. With the joke hanging without the straightman, it might illicit a couple laughs but then it disappears because it goes nowhere.

Kersplaining is a power move. If what you view as writing as potentially gaining more power over your readers, you might have a problem. Essays and treatises tend to have these issues. Unfortunately, a lot of writing assignments in school demand you to adopt these formats, largely because education assumes that one day you might be an authority. Questions with admission that you don't know the answer sometimes have a tendency to get people to respond with a little joy because hey, they might help. Always asking questions and never providing any help is another problem.

M Louise
06-15-2017, 09:52 AM
So far there's been much discussion of WHAT splaining is. But little of HOW to avoid it.

I suspect all of us are guilty of it occasionally. I'm sure I am, and don't even know it. So maybe the first step for those of us who care to do better is just to be aware splaining exists. Then to try to be more aware of who we are talking to.

Maybe there are some symptoms, some ways of speaking, which signal when splaining is happening. Then we can re-write our posts, re-think our speech, before we put it into the world.

Help?


The idea of an inveterate mansplainer asking women to show him how not to mansplain is one of the more absurd propositions I've heard.

Scene: lecture hall

Mansplainer: Hi, don't mind me interrupting. I'd like to tell you a few interesting things about your subject but if you think I'm mansplaining would you raise your hand and wiggle it about a bit? Thanks so much.

Women physics lecturer: Why might you feel the need to explain anything to me when I'm the one giving the lecture?

Mansplainer: Well, when I walk into a lecture hall, I assume I'm more knowledgeable on any given topic than everyone else present. Well, not everyone else, but more than women, perhaps.

Woman physics lecturer: Well, if you dropped that assumption you might learn something?

Mansplainer: Ah yes, but I need HELP to get over myself. You can't expect me to do all the work here, I'd like you to do your bit. Show me how to avoid it, let me know when I'm doing it. It's all about me, you see. You don't want me to get defensive do you? Help me deal with this. First let me tell you why mansplaining is so hard for me to overcome --

ETC etc etc

Aggy B.
06-15-2017, 03:00 PM
Wait, the dude fell for the straightman role. Job is done. The joke isn't as funny without the person falling into the straightman role. With the joke hanging without the straightman, it might illicit a couple laughs but then it disappears because it goes nowhere.

Did you just try and explain to me how humor works? And then excuse dude's behavior because he was inadvertently stepping into the "straight man role"? In a thread about mansplaining?

Xelebes
06-15-2017, 05:27 PM
Did you just try and explain to me how humor works? And then excuse dude's behavior because he was inadvertently stepping into the "straight man role"? In a thread about mansplaining?

Did I excuse his behaviour? Nah, the dude put himself in a worse position until he gets out of his power move. When he's still in the power move, he's still the butt of the joke.

Ari Meermans
06-15-2017, 06:38 PM
Closing thread. Helpful advice has been given and if received, great. If not . . .

I do recommend reading the sticky for this room to all before posting.

Thanks.