The future of feminism?

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Laer Carroll

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I've been pondering the future of feminism for some reason recently. Here are some of those thoughts. I'd love to hear yours.

TRENDS

BETTER BIRTH CONTROL is a major factor in feminism's future. It is increasingly more effective, safe, and cheap. This, plus a change in culture that makes it more acceptable to marry later, means that some countries have populations which have radically slowed, stopped, or even decreased. This includes the US, Russia, several European countries, and China, which recently did away with its one-child policy.

BRAINS BEATS BRAWN is a work trend which began in the mid-1800s. It is still playing out though it's very far along. At brain work women are as capable as men. In fact, today Western women on average have more education than men; it is part of the reason that many men are out of work in the Western world.

That trend has had effects even in that traditionally masculine job: killing. It is increasingly high-tech, and women can aim weapons and pull triggers as well as men. They can make good snipers. For example, in WWII Ukrainian Lyudmila Pavlichenko made 309 credited kills.

Women can also fly fighter jets. Even as woman-hating a country as Pakistan has them. It takes well over a million dollars a year to train and KEEP TRAINED a fighter pilot. For pilots must train every year of their useful life to stay sharp, and to keep up with the relentless yearly improvements of aircraft AND their weapons. This despite the high cost of munitions and jet fuel and all the other expenses of flying aircraft every week. No country can afford to ignore a potential source of pilots.

In both jobs as well as others a typical woman's small size is an asset. She can sneak and hide better. Another advantage is less obvious: the effects of the square-cube law. This is the reason fleas can jump many times their height, and elephants can't jump at all. It makes small people's cardio system more efficient and so gives them more stamina. It also makes them better able to resist high-g forces imposed on them by fighter acrobatics.

Once I understood that I realized there were wider implications.

SUBDOM SEXES, RACES, CLASSES, CITIZENS also share in the brains-beats-brawn trend. Intelligence does not favor heterosexuality, the dominant race in a country, their social class, or their citizenship status.

Other forces do, of course, including the dominant culture. In the US, for instance, a poor Lesbian black immigrant has a tough time, so much so that she may die or be permanently sidelined before she has a chance to prove her worth. In China urban Han Chinese have a firm lock on political power. But since the late 70s a radical shift to capitalism in China has opened up economic power to more provincials and racial minorities. In the long run profit beats prejudice.

The FEMINIST FRONTIER has expanded to include the entire world. In every country and culture it changes to reflect local conditions. In Islamic countries many feminists use the Quran to support their goals. In African countries many use anti-colonialist sentiment.

In countries where feminism has advanced the most many feel the expansion has finished. Recent events such as the concerted continuing attacks on Planned Parenthood show this is false. A thousand subtler factors push back against feminism. Every checkout stand has a dozen magazines saying that a woman MUST be beautiful, young, and skinny - desirable to men. Almost every image of bi-sex couples has the man looking out of the frame but the woman looking at him. References to the two sexes are always MEN and women, BOYS and girls, never the reverse.

The feminist frontier is everywhere.

Where do you think feminism is going? And how and why?
 
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zanzjan

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This would be forward-looking if the year was 1960, but even then still badly detached from (necessary) social context.

I do believe I've posted before asking you not to lecture at the community. Can you please stop lecturing at the community? Thank you.
 

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Actually, it is. Part of the encyclopedia discusses that fact, the section on biomechanics. The section also talks about the way size affects flying animals.

That's a dreadful section. It doesn't distinguish between terrestrial tetrapods and invertebrates.

Fleas can jump well because of their shape and the elastic properties of resilin and chitin. (Note that many other insects that are roughly the same size as fleas cannot jump.)
 

cornflake

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Actually, it is. Part of the encyclopedia discusses that fact, the section on biomechanics. The section also talks about the way size affects flying animals.

I'm sorry, I saw this and Helix's reply and thus clicked because I was confused as to which encyclopedia got something so wrong.

Did you really just refer to wikipedia as "the encyclopedia?"

I don't even know what to do with that. It's about as reliable as asking some random kid on the J train their thoughts on any particular matter. It is NOT an encyclopedia like an actual encyclopedia, with a publisher and fact checkers and editors.
 

Laer Carroll

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This would be forward-looking if the year was 1960,…
I'm an old geezer stuck in the past :)?

Maybe you're right. A kid in the 50s, I was brought up on family tales of my frontier ancestors, including women who faced up to hard times with "grit" and "smarts" (big compliments in my family) who could make do with very little. My favorite authors included Western writer Louis Lamour whose heroines could handle a Winchester as well as any man. Teen detective Nancy Drew was my heroine, though rivaled by Anne Shirley of Anne of Green Gables. My high school sweetheart was the valedictorian the year we graduated. She later went on to get a PhD and become a research psychologist.

In university I joined NOW to meet strong smart women and found them. I wasn't radicalized, however, if a firm belief in female equality is radical. I already believed that, and had my mother and various cousins and friends as living examples. Since then I've been a feminist activist on and off and on again over the years, and so seen the movement go through various stages of theory and practice. Despite that, it seems to me that the basic principles of feminism have remained the same since the suffragette movements and even before that. So, yeah, I admit to having a 1960s mindset. And an 1860s mindset, for that matter.
 
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AW Admin

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Laer I absolutely know you have a heart of gold and it's filled with good will and good intentions.

But yes, this is lecturing, and what's more, there's a level of impropriety in a man lecturing to women about feminism (and gettin' it rong) that is mind-boggling in terms of entitlement, privilege, and Dunning-Kruger.

Relying on Wikipedia as a source is . . . well. Not great, it's particularly not recommended when you're not an expert in the field in question and thus spot the wheat intermingled with the chaff.

Here's a thought: if we're doin' it right, feminism as a social construct and a theory will disappear because it will be lived experience and people won't need theoretical underpinnings because we'll be treating all people everywhere as valid and worthy.

In the meantime, here's some reading. It's not definitive, I don't like all the books personally, but they're pretty standard texts.

Jules Archer. Breaking Barriers: The Feminist Revolution from Susan B. Anthony To...Betty Friedan.
Simone de Beauvoir. The Second Sex.
Ruth Bleier. Science and Gender: A Critique of Biology and Its Theories on Women.
Judith Butler. Gender Trouble.
Susan Faludi. Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women.
Shulamath Firestone. The Dialectic of Sex: The Case for Feminist Revolution.
Betty Friedan. The Feminine Mystique.
Sandra Gilbert and Susan Gubar. The Madwoman in the Attic.
Bell Hooks. Feminism is for Everybody: Passionate Politics.
Catherine A. MacKinnon. Feminism Unmodified: Discourses on Life and Law.
Adrienne Rich. Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence.
Ruth Rosen. The World Split Open: How the Modern Women's Movement Changed America
Joanna Russ. How to Suppress Women's Writing.
Barbara Smith. Home Girls: A Black Feminist Anthology.
Virgina Woolf. A Room of One's Own.
 
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Aggy B.

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^^This.

Also, a friend recently recommended "Men Explain Things to Me" by Rebecca Solnit.

I think a lot of us here understand that you (Laer) mean well. But really, I'm extremely tired of men trying to tell me things I already know. And, yes, sometimes we discover things that are new to us and seem mindblowing but are, in fact, old hat to everyone else. And it's hard because we are excited about this thing that is making us think about things in new and different and life-changing ways. But, also, seriously, even though there are women who don't understand feminism, there are very few of them here.

Chances are that everything you are proposing or discussing are things we've already seen and talked about and know to be true. (We are the product of our environment. I struggle every day with the super-conservative religious underpinning of my worldview but in the end it makes me stronger and more thoughtful. But only when I question every bit of the things I "know" and "discover".) I know that it is very tempting to talk about things from perspective that, at first, seems very woman-centric. But you might consider how to discuss what these change mean for yourself, rather than telling women how you expect they should feel. (The former is hard. As someone coming from a background of mixed privilege it is very difficult to find a way to discuss how things could be better for everyone who is disadvantaged, while not relying on things that are not true for everyone.)

Sometimes I make an ass out of myself without realizing it. Context helps. Being humble and willing to listen helps.

Feminism (like humanity) is diverse, but some solutions are better than others.
 

buz

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I've been pondering the future of feminism for some reason recently. Here are some of those thoughts. I'd love to hear yours.

Is this part of a world-building exercise? Or just sort of... shooting the breeze kind of thing?

TRENDS

BETTER BIRTH CONTROL is a major factor in feminism's future. It is increasingly more effective, safe, and cheap. This, plus a change in culture that makes it more acceptable to marry later, means that some countries have populations which have radically slowed, stopped, or even decreased. This includes the US, Russia, several European countries, and China, which recently did away with its one-child policy.

It's a factor, sure. But what about it? There are obviously a lot of cultural issues regarding birth control that vary depending on the culture... so if this is a worldbuilding thing, you've got pretty much the entire map of birth control accessibility to play with? Yeah?

BRAINS BEATS BRAWN is a work trend which began in the mid-1800s. It is still playing out though it's very far along. At brain work women are as capable as men. In fact, today Western women on average have more education than men; it is part of the reason that many men are out of work in the Western world.

If we're making some sort of structural argument about society--do you have a cite for this?

I would also say...this is sort of questionable? Like, women can do most physical labor a man can, I think, generally speaking... I mean, I would argue it's less about technology and all than about shifting cultural allowances--though of course the two have an intricate interplay, but I don't think it can be stripped down and simplified like this and still be accurate. So...where's it going? I don't know. I hope "away from the bottom of the toilet." But there's complex stuff here that doesn't indicate a specific trajectory to me.

Of course, if this is about worldbuilding, you can invent your own gender roles or lack thereof.

Women can also fly fighter jets. Even as woman-hating a country as Pakistan has them. It takes well over a million dollars a year to train and KEEP TRAINED a fighter pilot. For pilots must train every year of their useful life to stay sharp, and to keep up with the relentless yearly improvements of aircraft AND their weapons. This despite the high cost of munitions and jet fuel and all the other expenses of flying aircraft every week. No country can afford to ignore a potential source of pilots.

I'm not sure the point of this? Women can operate planes, yeah. They can also operate tractors, chainsaws, trucks, boxing gloves, construction equipment, submarines, computers, cattle chutes, bone saws, cameras, munitions, welding tools, underwater machinery, tankers, etc, but the male-dominatedness of some or all of the fields that require the operation of such things isn't about ability. It's about culture. It's about women getting pushed out with assault, harassment, degradation, gaslighting, discrimination, lack of opportunity, and so on.

Sexism isn't really about logic or what makes sense, I don't think.

In both jobs as well as others a typical woman's small size is an asset. She can sneak and hide better. Another advantage is less obvious: the effects of the square-cube law. This is the reason fleas can jump many times their height, and elephants can't jump at all. It makes small people's cardio system more efficient and so gives them more stamina. It also makes them better able to resist high-g forces imposed on them by fighter acrobatics.

Iunno. A horse is better at jumping than a tick. ;)

Whether a woman is "smaller" depends on the woman, really. Even so, this is again a tech/science kind of argument about feminism when...culture plays a massive role.
Other forces do, of course, including the dominant culture. In the US, for instance, a poor Lesbian black immigrant has a tough time, so much so that she may die or be permanently sidelined before she has a chance to prove her worth. In China urban Han Chinese have a firm lock on political power. But since the late 70s a radical shift to capitalism in China has opened up economic power to more provincials and racial minorities. In the long run profit beats prejudice.

The current political situations in several countries lead me to believe that prejudice has a lot more power than this assumes. Prejudice over profit, over reality, over facts, over life. People would rather have Other People die than help them, because they are Other People. How's that profitable?

I'm not convinced at all that culture is not, and will not be, a huge factor in continuing to suppress the efforts for sex equality. In fact I'm the opposite of convinced. ;)

I mean, if that's your argument...I actually can't follow your argument, or what you're trying to say? I'm just sort of pulling at threads here :)
 
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Roxxsmom

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I'm not sure the point of this? Women can operate planes, yeah. They can also operate tractors, chainsaws, trucks, boxing gloves, construction equipment, submarines, computers, cattle chutes, bone saws, cameras, munitions, welding tools, underwater machinery, tankers, etc, but the male-dominatedness of some or all of the fields that require the operation of such things isn't about ability. It's about culture. It's about women getting pushed out with assault, harassment, degradation, gaslighting, discrimination, lack of opportunity, and so on.

And ability has nothing to do with the fact that women tend to be paid less than men today, even in female-dominated professions like nursing, and female graduates from "top" colleges and universities still make less than do male graduates from less selective schools.

I have an anecdotal example of how girls can be turned away from activities they're good at and that interest them. One of my nieces did a couple of "robot making" camps when she was in Jr. High. She loves math and science and is very good at them, and is still getting top grades, even in high school. But she hated being the only girl, or one of the only girls, in the program. The boys in her team didn't listen to her. It was the usual issue: she'd suggest something, and no one would pay attention, but when a boy suggested the same thing later, it was a great idea! This is a smart young woman with a very strong personality, btw, and not a shy, self-effacing little violet.

My niece has also shied away from her school's special STEM track for the same reason--it's dominated by boys and male teachers and girls often don't feel supported or listened to. Of course, it's possible to go to a top school and major in a STEM major without partaking of one of these programs, and I have reservations about channeling kids into special programs and specialties too early in their education process. But you can see how other factors than talent or interest can push girls away from male-dominated areas of study and professions. I wonder if the same issue might make her shy away from majoring in something like engineering or physics in college too.

Sexism isn't really about logic or what makes sense, I don't think.

Exactly, and there are some pretty powerful people in our country who are very against leveling the playing field when it comes to most forms of discrimination. Things are getting better and will (hopefully) continue to get better, we can't underestimate the power of socialization, tradition, religion, and unconscious sexism either, nor the difficulty of overcoming the problems that come with being a minority within your profession or field.

Also, the reproductive thing, where many graduate programs and professions require a high level of commitment from people during their twenties and thirties, levels that are incompatible with pregnancy and care of young children for many women (unless they have partners who are willing to be the primary caregiver, but even so, men can't be pregnant for their wives). Unless we develop artificial wombs (something that is a thing in some SF, of course), this problem isn't going away without a huge change in things like the tenure clock (for academic positions) or way we promote and reward workers in the private sector.

I'm not convinced at all that culture is not, and will not be, a huge factor in continuing to suppress the efforts for sex equality. In fact I'm the opposite of convinced. ;)

I mean, if that's your argument...I actually can't follow your argument, or what you're trying to say? I'm just sort of pulling at threads here :)

I suspect that gender will be something that plays out differently in the future, and that some of the inequalities will become less marked. Look at all the changes we've had in the past 50 years. But the path towards true gender equality may be a matter of two steps forward and one step back (or one forward and two back at some times, as we appear to be experiencing right now), because there are a lot of people and institutions who benefit from the status quo. The mass underpaying of women, for instance, and the reliance upon them to provide many unpaid services in our economy (child care, volunteer work, domestic labor) allows men to focus more narrowly on their careers and to make more money.

I think the factor that might have the biggest effect on the future will be the increasing irrelevance of human labor in most professions that aren't about coming up with completely original ideas. Very, very few people of either gender are those kinds of innovators (I know I'm not), and even most "brainy" professions (like engineering and medicine) are really about applying knowledge and information we already have--something computer programs and robots will be increasingly able to do.
 
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buz

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I suspect that gender will be something that plays out differently in the future, and that some of the inequalities will become less marked. Look at all the changes we've had in the past 50 years. But the path towards true gender equality may be a matter of two steps forward and one step back (or one forward and two back at some times, as we appear to be experiencing right now), because there are a lot of people and institutions who benefit from the status quo.

Spose you're right. At the moment it's hard for me to take the long view; I'm too demotivated by the present. But hopefully the shitty compost of the present will grow more things in the future. ;)
 

cornflake

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Not only do women get paid less, even in female-dominated professions, but when previously male-dominated professions switch to being female-dominated, the pay drops.

This is especially visible, btw, in veterinary medicine, which has seen a nearly total shift in <100 years, from over 90% of vet students and vets male to now nearly 90% of vet students female (practicing vets obviously lag behind, but there are now more women practicing than men, and it'll obviously tip more and more due to attrition). The pay gap in veterinary medicine still exists, however, and overall average vet pay? Expected to decrease.
 

zanzjan

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Laer I absolutely know you have a heart of gold and it's filled with good will and good intentions.

Just wanted to second this.

i think if you can find a way to start discussions in an SFF context on subjects you're interested in that doesn't involve dropping an essay on us, things will go more smoothly. We are all peers, with things we can each learn from each other, and viewing threads as opportunities for conversations rather than lecture-and-response might help.
 

zanzjan

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Speaking of SFF context, I'm not sure I see one in this cureent conversation. We can punt this over to Roundtable, which is a better fit, unless someone wants to postulate a spec fic direction for this?
 

Roxxsmom

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Spose you're right. At the moment it's hard for me to take the long view; I'm too demotivated by the present. But hopefully the shitty compost of the present will grow more things in the future. ;)

I hope so too, and I also find it harder to be optimistic than I once was. But to bring this back to a SF context, this is why I tend to prefer reading about futures and speculative worlds where gender norms aren't lifted directly from our here and now, or from our actual past. I'm always baffled, for instance, when I read about a future where women can do anything men do and be anything men are, yet a woman automatically (and without questioning) becomes "Mrs. Her Husband's name" when she marries (or portraying all marriages as male/female and a monogamous pair). That's not an unthinking given, even today, and I'm thinking it would be less so in a less patriarchal, or futuristic world, where family structures are much more flexible. This always reveals something about the author's unthinking assumptions or ignorance about the context in which our naming conventions arose. Of course, there might well be some cultures or outlying traditionalists within more egalitarian cultures who continue to have male-headed families in the future, but it probably wouldn't go without saying or be unremarked.

This is just one example of the way our modern norms and sensibilities can creep into speculative fiction, and I kind of wonder how readers in 30 years or so might regard some of the stuff being written about the future now. I know I can't read Asimov without cringing, because of the way he unthinkingly projected 50s-era gender norms into the far future without any rationale for it (when I was a teen-aged girl, reading the Robot books, I really wanted to believe in a future where a brilliant, female scientist didn't have to be bitter and single if she didn't want to be).

I also know that it's probably impossible not to miss things like this in our own writing now, because so many of the current norms are like water to fish--we live in them, so we don't think about them much (aside from a few people who seem to be wired to question everything, and they tend to make everyone else very angry).
 
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DancingMaenid

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Sexism isn't really about logic or what makes sense, I don't think.

In addition to this, the justifications people use to support social stratification and prejudice can be dependent on time period and culture.

For example, today the idea that women should be submissive to men because Eve was made from Adam's rib and then chose to sin doesn't have as much cultural currency except maybe in some very fundamentalist Christian sects. Women are not accused of witchcraft in Western countries as a rule. But sexism didn't go away when the US stopped hanging women for witchcraft.

It's nice to imagine that the future will be totally inclusive and free of prejudice, and in many ways our society has improved as a whole. But people are prone to categorizing and othering each other, and I don't think it can be assumed that that will just go away entirely. People may find new justifications for their prejudices.
 

Laer Carroll

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I just read three articles: about marriage in Iran, India, and China. They offer insights in the future of the relations between the sexes. Here are the headlines and the links to them.

It’s online dating as you’ve never seen it before – no profile photos, matches are chosen for you, and parents must also go on the first date, but is Iran’s government-controlled dating service fighting a losing battle against Western desires?

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/story/irans-dating-revolution

Is the partner you met online really who they say they are? Dateline finds that hiring private detectives to investigate lovers is big business in India, as modern technology challenges age-old tradition.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/story/indias-love-detectives

China will soon have 24 million more men than women, making the search for love increasingly difficult and desperate for those still single.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/dateline/story/chinas-lonely-hearts

…the justifications people use to support social stratification and prejudice can be dependent on time period and culture.

One idea I got out of the articles is the same one you and Buzhidao made: that any future developments in feminism or any other area will be heavily influenced by the culture of the country in which the developments take place. And if we write realistically about the future we need to know something about those cultures.

For instance, the imbalance between the sexes in China came about because of the one-child policy recently abolished there. It was designed to limit a dangerously large and growing population. It succeeded, but had an unintended consequence. The culture favored boys over girls, so couples selected for boys. They did this both legally and illegally, which included aborting girl babies and abandoning them.

Each of the articles also made the point that technological advances are used by people to advance their agendas. In China that includes tech that tells the sex of kids before birth. In Iran that includes illegal but numerous dating sites.

That last touches on another theme that I believe we need to keep in mind when we speculate about the future. Knowledge, or at least information, is weightless, invisible, and can move at the speed of light. Copying it does not destroy the info. Suppressing it is impossible, no matter how hard and viciously a country might try. The best a country can do is make up lies to counter it. Or the one big lie: all news is fake.

I see these infowars play out in news stories about events in many countries. In North Korea, for instance, you are courting death if you play music or movies from South Korea. Yet there is a thriving black market for them. And the biggest customers are the very elite who run the country, especially the kids of the elite.
 
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Ari Meermans

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Mod Note:

Going live in Roundtable now. Please take a moment or six to read the guidelines for the room: About The AW Roundtable Discussion Room *Please read before posting* (Update 5/27/2017)

Specifically, this part:

Roundtable (Updated May 27, 2017)

Roundtable discussions are those discussions where participants come together as equals to discuss a specific topic and contributions by all participants are given equal weight. If it helps, do think in terms of conference panel discussions. Participation is predicated on adding to the conversation, not in disparaging previous contributions.

Roundtable is a place for achieving understanding through sharing what we know and seeking to learn more from each other. No one person can know all there is to know on any given subject. Our perspectives and levels of understanding are formed through education—and how that material was presented—through lived experience, and through our individual abilities to "get" nuance.

Read for comprehension, ask questions, be patient, be helpful, and be kind to one another.
 

Venavis

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I'm rooting for it involving the complete subjugation of men via the heavy and gratuitous use of whips, chains, and pie.
 

Laer Carroll

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I'm rooting for it involving the complete subjugation of men via the heavy and gratuitous use of whips, chains, and pie.
Especially PIZZA pie. Pepperoni topping for positive reinforcement, pineapple for negative. Or maybe anchovies for really severe punishment.
 
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Ari Meermans

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All right, now, you two.

I'm very interested in hearing (seeing) everyone's views on where we think feminism is going. With everything we're seeing in the news wrt our politicians' views and the fact that historically feminism—which did not suddenly spring into being with the suffrage movement—seems to take two steps back with every one step forward, is there any cause for hope?

Do we see a future similar to Margaret Atwood's novel The Handmaid's Tale (which is now a major motion picture)? Do such works open minds and eyes? Are there signs that we can legitimately envision a far different future for men and women? If so, how can it be brought to be?
 

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The end goal of feminism is a world in which gender is completely irrelevant when determining what a person does with their life and how they are treated. My niece should be able to be in a STEM field without anyone telling her she can't because she is female, being ogled, or any other type of misogynistic behavior. Conversely, my nephew should be able to work as a teacher or a nurse without anyone treating him as less of a man for it. Both my niece and nephew should be able to have the hobbies of knitting, legos, sewing, hunting, dollmaking, karate, ballet, and playing video games without being treated badly because it doesn't fit their 'gender role'. A man able to cry without being judged as weak. A woman able to be angry without being dismissed as a bitch. No one being treated as a mere sexual object or judged for their bodies. No one judged as less or better simply because of what sexual organs they happen to have.

That's what feminism is all about. Men and women being completely equal, judged only on their merits rather than on their gender. That's the agenda. That's the future feminism wants. Frankly, it's a future all of us, as human beings, should want.

It's getting push back because there is a group of people who absolutely cannot stand the idea that they don't deserve to have more power and authority than others. It hurts their little fe-fes because deep down, they know they can't stand on their own actual merits and being part of the group on top is all they have going for them. Same basis as all other forms of bigotry and prejudice. Those people are assholes, and we really should stop pretending otherwise or worse, being like them. In fact, we really should call them out on it a lot more than we do.
 

Anna Iguana

reading all the things
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The feminism I believe in can--must--stretch to accommodate shifting understandings of gender. Like Venavis, I think feminism survives, and a more feminist future is coming. (This is like asking me "does hope survive"? I almost have to say yes.) I do wonder, though, whether "feminism" will survive under its name, because of the "fem-" in its name. And it seems possible, given how much has shifted in views of gender in my lifetime, that the future of feminism, generations from now, may not be anything I recognize.
 
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