This is the hero? This is the villain?

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The hero is the guy in a story who we are supposed to root for as we boo the villain but sometimes when analyse it we realise that the hero isnt all thst good or thr villain isnt all that bad.Sometimes u might realise it's the villain who is the one we should actually cheer.
Case in point- Tom and jerry. Jerry is a pest who steals and spoils good while speeding diseases. Tom is a cat who's job is to catch mice and thus protect the owners food....see my point.
So are there any heroes you realise weren't worth cheering for or villains not worth booing.

Robinson Crusoe. He becomes less sympathetic when u realise if memory serves correct he was shipwrecked while going to get slaves for the plantation.

The classic movie Ferris beullers day off.
Ferris doesn't feel like going to school,so he lies to his parents about being sick,convince his actually sick friend to come with him andtake his father's car for transp. Also he lies to get his girlfriend out of school.

The villain? The principal who goes to catch Ferris. How dare he try to make a ttuat go to school. Note Ferris has done this 9 times already.

Here a jarring one I watched and realised as well 2001 movie -Two can play that game. Our protagonist catches her boyfriend cheating, and is justifiably angry. She decided to spend 10 days mentally torturing him to punish him. This includes,not taking his calls while talking to other men so people can report him and make him jealous, (women actually do this stuff in real life when their man isn't payongbthem the attention they want), coming over dressed sexy and getting intimate only to break away at the point it gets real hot. When he finaly had enough of that crap and tries to move I with another woman,she gets jealous and finds another man to make him jealous. In the end they reconcile and its all happy and romantic

Call me chauvinist but while this mightvjave some ladies jumping and screaming -Get that cheating bastard girl! There's something fundamentally evil about her actions. You don't 'punish' your partner, especially not by torturing them mentally or otherwise ,that's abusive the fact that she willfully involves other men and play with their feelings to do it makes it even worse. Not to say his actions we're justified but she should either have confronted it and either dumpedhim or stayed and worked with him in restoring the relationship . he shouldve dumoed hee for playingthose mind games
 
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Brightdreamer

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"I"m saying the mouse never wins. Not unless you believe those lying cartoons." - Cat, from Red Dwarf

For the record, as a cat person, I was always on Tom's side... and it got really old, watching the mouse get away with everything. (I always preferred the ones where they worked together, because the "bad cat/good mouse" formula was tiresome even to my childhood self.)

Many heroes and villains have shades of gray about them, because life has far more shades of gray than extremes. I'm having trouble, off the top of my head, thinking of a straight-up "white-hat" hero or "black-hat" villain, though I believe I've seen more of the latter than the former.
 

Devabbi

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Gray-area villains are my favorite kind - the ones where you actually fully understand their reasons resonate more with me. They're relatable, and more human, and so much more interesting for it. It makes the reader really think about which side they're on when there's no real, direct line in the sand.
 

morngnstar

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The hero is the guy in a story who we are supposed to root for as we boo the villain but sometimes when analyse it we realise that the hero isnt all thst good or thr villain isnt all that bad.

The hero is the character you identify with. It's a sort of selfish morality. It's not, "What is objectively right?" but, "If I were him, what would I want?" Fiction, to me, is about empathy, so this is more interesting than some moralistic message. Understanding other people's morality can be just as valuable as understanding your own (which you probably consider to be "objective"; a challenge to that notion is also welcome).

Yes, they are often bad, and could be the villain in a story from a different perspective. But often at least there is an aspect of the hero that is good. For example, in the heist movie, we're supposed to respect the thieves' loyalty to each other.

The classic movie Ferris beullers day off.
Ferris doesn't feel like going to school,so he lies to his parents about being sick,convince his actually sick friend to come with him andtake his father's car for transp. Also he lies to get his girlfriend out of school.

The villain? The principal who goes to catch Ferris. How dare he try to make a ttuat go to school. Note Ferris has done this 9 times already.

"I'm not European, I don't plan on being European, so who gives a crap if they're socialists? They could be fascist anarchists for all I care; it still wouldn't change the fact that I don't own a car."

Ferris's motives are somewhat shallow and self-centered, but his monologue is evidence that he probably doesn't need to be in school today. He seems to have already mastered a good bit of political science.

The principal, on the other hand, is doing the "right" thing, but out of ignoble motives. He is petty and vindictive.

I think FBDO is intentionally challenging conventional morality. It's not only the point that there are aspects of Ferris's character we admire, such as his joie de vivre. It's not actually challenging the idea that the hero is the one who does what's right. It's challenging the concept that what's right is to follow the rules.
 
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cornflake

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The hero is the character you identify with. It's a sort of selfish morality. It's not, "What is objectively right?" but, "If I were him, what would I want?" Fiction, to me, is about empathy, so this is more interesting than some moralistic message. Understanding other people's morality can be just as valuable as understanding your own (which you probably consider to be "objective"; a challenge to that notion is also welcome).

Yes, they are often bad, and could be the villain in a story from a different perspective. But often at least there is an aspect of the hero that is good. For example, in the heist movie, we're supposed to respect the thieves' loyalty to each other.



"I'm not European, I don't plan on being European, so who gives a crap if they're socialists? They could be fascist anarchists for all I care; it still wouldn't change the fact that I don't own a car."

Ferris's motives are somewhat shallow and self-centered, but his monologue is evidence that he probably doesn't need to be in school today. He seems to have already mastered a good bit of political science.

The principal, on the other hand, is doing the "right" thing, but out of ignoble motives. He is petty and vindictive.

I think FBDO is intentionally challenging conventional morality. It's not only the point that there are aspects of Ferris's character we admire, such as his joie de vivre. It's not actually challenging the idea that the hero is the one who does what's right. It's challenging the concept that what's right is to follow the rules.

This. Carpe diem is the clear point of that movie, and that the rules, and following them, and thus being 'a good person,' don't make you happy. That's the entire point of Jennifer Grey's character's arc.

Also agree the hero isn't necessarily 'good' at all, but that doesn't have anything to do with the audience's ability to root for them. Lisbeth Salander is arguably the hero of the Stieg Larsson books. She is not good. Doesn't mean she's not the one to root for.

Don Draper was decidedly not a good person; doesn't mean he was not the hero or someone people didn't root for.

I don't really think in terms of hero and villain though, nor do I really know anyone who does, to my knowledge. The protagonist drives the plot; the antagonist runs counter.
 

dpaterso

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The protagonist drives the plot; the antagonist runs counter.
And the other way round, too. The antagonist kicks off the heist or whatever and the protagonist has to stop it somehow.

-Derek
 

Maryn

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To me, the distinction between hero-villain and protagonist-antagonist is the heart of the question the OP posed. The protagonist isn't necessarily heroic, although he or she can be. And the antagonist isn't necessarily villainous--mainly this character just blocks the protagonist from getting what s/he wants or needs easily.

After all, audiences went wild for Dirty Harry even though his actions denied the civil rights of the villain. What Dirty Harry Callahan did guaranteed any prosecution would lose in court even though the guy is guilty. He's technically the hero of the story--but a special kind of hero, an antihero, not a good man and lacking heroic qualities. However, the audience identified with him.

Maryn, who rewatched it last year and couldn't help thinking about the courtroom
 

morngnstar

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Maryn, who rewatched it last year and couldn't help thinking about the courtroom

That would make an unexpected sequel.

Judge: "Now you've gotta ask yourself one question. Did you read him his Miranda rights? Well, did ya, punk?"
 

Myrealana

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A perfect protagonist is boring.

A nearly-perfect protagonist whose only flaw is something adorable is a Mary/Gary Sue.

A protagonist who made their money selling slaves and now finds himself in a bit of a pickle - there's potential there.
An overly precocious teenager well aware that his glory days are nearly behind him - lots to identify with.

Now, I have to agree with you on the mouse thing. I secretly hoped the cat would win and the show would be over.
 

Roxxsmom

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I always wanted Sylvester to get Tweety too and for the Coyote to get the roadrunner, though the moral message in those cases was that obsession is rather unhealthy. I can't really argue with that, it's just that Tweety and the Roadrunner were so darned smug.

I think Ferris Bueller's Day Off was supposed to play with the standard trope that good kids always follow the rules end up better off. I thought the most interesting character in the movie was his sister, actually. She resented him for always getting away with things and being popular when she was always a good girl and got nothing for it. In the end, she learned to relax and go with things a bit more, after seeing what such an obsession with catching people like her brother and getting them their just desserts had turned the Principal into, and after talking to (and seizing the day and making out with) Charlie Sheen's character in jail. She was the only character who really had a transformation arc in the movie. Ferris was a pretty static character himself--more a catalyst.

Here a jarring one I watched and realised as well 2001 movie -Two can play that game. Our protagonist catches her boyfriend cheating, and is justifiably angry. She decided to spend 10 days mentally torturing him to punish him. This includes,not taking his calls while talking to other men so people can report him and make him jealous, (women actually do this stuff in real life when their man isn't payongbthem the attention they want), coming over dressed sexy and getting intimate only to break away at the point it gets real hot. When he finaly had enough of that crap and tries to move I with another woman,she gets jealous and finds another man to make him jealous. In the end they reconcile and its all happy and romantic.

I missed this movie. The message eludes me, really. Getting back together with someone who cheated with you doesn't seem like a healthy goal. People generally cheat when they're A. not that into their partner and find someone else more attractive or interesting, or B. not emotionally suited for monogamy at that point in their life (or ever--polyamory appears to be an enduring orientation some have). I can see fighting to save a relationship when one has built a life with the person in question over years, has a history of good times and mutual respect and friendship as well as passion, and splitting up would be a logistical nightmare, but if you're just dating someone and they cheat on you? Meh. Not worth it.

And while I think head games are stupid, petty, and a waste of time (why would a unfaithful boyfriend be worth doing this for anyway). I'm sure some women (certainly not "women" in general) do shit like this when they're young and/or immature, just like some men play head games or control games when they're young and/or immature. But I'd hardly count the above-mentioned behaviors as "torture" either.

Your take on this example has me scratching my head. I think you're reading too much into what was probably a silly movie aimed at mentally immature viewers.
 
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Ok, she purposely refuses his calls. Goes to church and talks and touchhes a man in front of the means friends so they'll go report it back to him, goes to his house and gets really intimate and then ups and leaves. Lastly bursts her tire so a man can help then invite him into a party so the bf can see.

All the while her character breaks the 4th well and talks to the audience to tell them what she's doing and why's she's doing it. In her own words, if you love your man... punish him
 

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Ok, she purposely refuses his calls. Goes to church and talks and touchhes a man in front of the means friends so they'll go report it back to him, goes to his house and gets really intimate and then ups and leaves. Lastly bursts her tire so a man can help then invite him into a party so the bf can see.

All the while her character breaks the 4th well and talks to the audience to tell them what she's doing and why's she's doing it. In her own words, if you love your man... punish him

Breaking the fourth wall is a legitimate narrative technique (it was used in Ferris Bueller) in stories that are prefaced as someone telling a story to the audience, though it's tricky to pull it off effectively.

Did she have a reason for punishing him? He cheated on her, right, so it's hard to feel terribly sorry for him. Would a better message have been "If you love your man, look the other way and forgive him when he cheats"? I suspect the message was actually meant to be, "If you love your man, stop at nothing to save the relationship and make him realize how much he really loves you," but even so, I think that's pretty stupid.

IMO, the best message would have been, "Don't waste your time with cheaters or saving deeply troubled relationships; move on and find more interesting things to do and better people to hang out with." It's hardly worth worrying about, though. There are some stupid movies out there, and I know I'm not the target audience for them.
 
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jjdebenedictis

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Yet another thread where the OP portrays women as evil.