Can it be done?

Delilah J. Anders · Apr 25, 2017

Hi all! I am a newbie around these parts and while I learn and participate, I had question you might could help me with.

I've been reading tons of tips and advice for query writing, and making notes along the way. I feel like I have a pretty solid query written, but there's one thing that is giving me pause.

When I started writing my book, I didn't anticipate it to be as long as it is. About 3/4 of the way through, I realized that if it were to be picked up, a publisher would want to split it up into two maybe three books. In fact, one publisher that wanted to publish it and work with me said they would divide it into a three book release. I, being the newbie, didn't know that this publisher was what is considered a vanity one, and that pulled me out of the running on that one. What I have seen in advice is to NOT sell your book as a series. I have seen also that you don't want to do that in such a way that only part of it is written, with a "more to come" addendum. This story in particular is finished, however, I do have plans for two more for the "series" .. from different perspectives with other gaps in background. I would only ever mention that if they wanted to work with what I currently have finished, simply because they aren't complete.

I have mulled over a long while the possibility of being told to cut it down to a "normal" size, but I don't see a way to do this. Also, from the multiple beta reads I have gotten feedback from, they don't see how I would be able to remove parts of the story either. Reading it as a single book in its current size was also reported to go quickly and not feel as long as it actually is.

I guess my question is, when I give the closing paragraph with the title and word count etc, is it ok to say" XYZ is a (genre) series with (wordcount)" ? Or how should I approach this?

Thanks so much for your time and help here!

D

cornflake · Apr 25, 2017

Delilah J. Anders said:
Hi all! I am a newbie around these parts and while I learn and participate, I had question you might could help me with.

I've been reading tons of tips and advice for query writing, and making notes along the way. I feel like I have a pretty solid query written, but there's one thing that is giving me pause.

When I started writing my book, I didn't anticipate it to be as long as it is. About 3/4 of the way through, I realized that if it were to be picked up, a publisher would want to split it up into two maybe three books. In fact, one publisher that wanted to publish it and work with me said they would divide it into a three book release. I, being the newbie, didn't know that this publisher was what is considered a vanity one, and that pulled me out of the running on that one. What I have seen in advice is to NOT sell your book as a series. I have seen also that you don't want to do that in such a way that only part of it is written, with a "more to come" addendum. This story in particular is finished, however, I do have plans for two more for the "series" .. from different perspectives with other gaps in background. I would only ever mention that if they wanted to work with what I currently have finished, simply because they aren't complete.

I have mulled over a long while the possibility of being told to cut it down to a "normal" size, but I don't see a way to do this. Also, from the multiple beta reads I have gotten feedback from, they don't see how I would be able to remove parts of the story either. Reading it as a single book in its current size was also reported to go quickly and not feel as long as it actually is.

I guess my question is, when I give the closing paragraph with the title and word count etc, is it ok to say" XYZ is a (genre) series with (wordcount)" ? Or how should I approach this?

Thanks so much for your time and help here!

D

You can't pitch a single book as a series, like the agent is at a family-style restaurant -- 'here, this bowl of pasta serves six, divide it amongst yourselves.' You pitch a single book.

How long are we talking, and what genre, to start with?

Assuming it's really too long to stand alone, it has to stand alone, either by division or subtraction, basically. You cannot, no, have an unresolved ending, which doesn't mean there can't be any loose threads, but there must be a main arc that's resolved. It can't be a 'to be continued' type ending for the MC. If it's better cut than divided well, I guarantee it can be cut; everything can be cut.

Harlequin · Apr 25, 2017

I think you need a beta by the sounds of it.

mayqueen · Apr 25, 2017

I guess my question is, when I give the closing paragraph with the title and word count etc, is it ok to say" XYZ is a (genre) series with (wordcount)" ? Or how should I approach this?

Yes, this is exactly how to do it.

Question: what is your genre and word count?

You have a couple of options at this point if you are seriously interested in pursuing trade publication.

1. You can query as is, knowing that a manuscript with an unacceptably high word count is a very, very hard sell, knowing that most agents will probably reject you simply for that reason, hoping that your strong, strong, strong writing pulls the remaining agents in so much they ignore the word count. (I think this is unlikely since you've already been told by a publisher, albeit a vanity publisher, that it's three times too long.)

2. You can revise the manuscript to be a stand-alone novel with series potential, knowing that a single book deal is hard enough to get, let alone a multiple book deal, as a debut author.

3. You can write something else and use that as your debut, and keep this one in the trunk until you've acquired enough publishing capital to get someone to want to buy it.

If none of those sound appealing to you, you can look into self-publishing.

Delilah J. Anders · Apr 25, 2017

To answer a few of the questions.. its adult romance/erotic (as to genre, do I need to keep it to one of these or the other? The sex scenes are explicit to push it over the "romance" aspect so wasn't sure because it isn't just that, it does have plot and development) and it's 352k words.. It does have all the requested/required things that this genre wants.. that I have seen.

There is only one "natural" break and that comes when there's a time hop ahead. The only issue with that, to me, is that it's not in the "middle". Of course I have no idea if that matters and if so, how much?

So, I guess next I would ask if I could pitch the whole story as a series, and not a stand alone because it's completed. Not the apparently taboo "more to come"?

Perhaps I am also not completely clear on the exact definition of beta where this is concerned? I have had several read the entire thing and given feedback. Is there someone specific and does this typically require payment?

Thanks for the feedback thus far!

Harlequin · Apr 25, 2017

afaik you could pitch it as a series. yes that's a beta, just someone to read. Did they think it shoudl be broken up?

352 is way above what yoou'll be able to sell as a single thing.

Most "series" novels these days are not series in the traditional sense; they are like LOTR, which is really one story in many volumes. A genuine series would have loosely connected novels with individual plot arcs, distinct and designed (if you wish) to be read separately or out of order. That kind of series is less common these days I think, except in crime fiction. Talking off the top of my head here.

mayqueen · Apr 25, 2017

Oh yes 352k is FAR too high for that genre. You have at least four books of material there. I wouldn't recommend querying this as is at all, as I highly doubt any agent will read past the word count in that genre. (Maaaaaaaybe if you have something mind-blowing in SFF or something, but not in romance/erotica.) You can't query a series, either. It must be one standalone book. You should check out some of the query hashtags on Twitter like #tenqueries, in which agents give feedback on a big-picture level about why they reject queries. Word count is often the reason.

You're going to either have to revise to a more standard word count (which is around 80,000 words) or self-publish, I'm afraid. It's not a matter of just getting a beta-reader, I think, but someone who can read your manuscript with an eye for tearing it apart (constructively, of course).

Cyia · Apr 25, 2017

a 300,000+ word ROMANCE???

Not fantasy romance or sci-fi romance?

Do you read romance novels? They're usually in the 50-70K range, if they're not genre-novels. You get some historical behemoths like Outlander, but she never intended that novel to be a romance.

That's 100K longer than The Historian, which again - not a romance. You're half-way through War and Peace at that length.

Delilah J. Anders · Apr 25, 2017

No, they didn't feel like it would need to be broken up. A couple only suggested it as a potential for sales. This would be I guess like LOTR.. one story in many volumes.. I have also thought of it kind of like The Green Mile.. IIRC that was 8 smallish books that made up a singular story. So I guess it isn't traditional then?

Delilah J. Anders · Apr 25, 2017

sigh.. lol I know.. I looked up the word count on that as I was closing in to this finish.. and was like.. oh my..

Aggy B. · Apr 25, 2017

Okay. The problem with trying to pitch it as a series is... It still will need to be broken up into separate books that each have an in-book arc and resolution (even if each one is leading into the next). So your best bet is to figure out how to break it up.

Agents don't like pitching cliffhangers. (Mine preferred I add some length to a book out on sub rather than keep it short and end on a cliffhanger/unresolved.)

I would suggest setting this one aside for a while and trying to write a different, shorter book. You might come back to this one later and see where you could trim it down or split it up. But there's pretty much no way you can interest a reputable agent with this book as it is now.

Delilah J. Anders · Apr 25, 2017

Aggy B. said:
Okay. The problem with trying to pitch it as a series is... It still will need to be broken up into separate books that each have an in-book arc and resolution (even if each one is leading into the next). So your best bet is to figure out how to break it up.

Agents don't like pitching cliffhangers. (Mine preferred I add some length to a book out on sub rather than keep it short and end on a cliffhanger/unresolved.)

I would suggest setting this one aside for a while and trying to write a different, shorter book. You might come back to this one later and see where you could trim it down or split it up. But there's pretty much no way you can interest a reputable agent with this book as it is now.

I was thinking that would be what I would need to do .. find a spot to break it up on top of the one place I know it has a break. Thanks!

Mary Love · Apr 25, 2017

Cyia said:
You're half-way through War and Peace at that length.

Bahaha, why do I find this so funny? :ROFL:

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Sorry, I know the struggle of a too-big book, not trying to rub it in. Just glad others have the same problem!

Delilah J. Anders · Apr 25, 2017

Mary Love said:
Bahaha, why do I find this so funny?

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Sorry, I know the struggle of a too-big book, not trying to rub it in. Just glad others have the same problem!

HA! No worries.. it kind of is funny.. writer problems right?

JJ Litke · Apr 25, 2017

Delilah J. Anders said:
No, they didn't feel like it would need to be broken up. A couple only suggested it as a potential for sales. This would be I guess like LOTR.. one story in many volumes.. I have also thought of it kind of like The Green Mile.. IIRC that was 8 smallish books that made up a singular story. So I guess it isn't traditional then?

I have to question the experience of your beta readers if they really didn't think that word count is a problem or suggest it needs to be broken up. I'd bet most agents won't even look at the pages once they see the word count.

Melody · Apr 25, 2017

Jumping in to put my 2 cents in and agree with all the advice you've gotten. My historical romance coming in May is 84,000 words, which is on the long side for a romance, but okay because historical novels can be a bit longer. Mine will be a series of three stories, but all connected by the nation, time period and basic group of friends and foes. My first could be a stand alone and is complete. The next two will include characters from the first story, but each new romance will be resolved with each book. Nothing will be left hanging as far as that is concerned. I've yet to see a romance series that keeps the reader hanging past the first book, as far as the main couple, and there are a few romance series out there. Other series that are not romances may do that, but not this genre. My advice is to get a freelance editor to take a look, if you can afford to do that. Maybe no plot points can be cut, but how you get from point to point should be able to be tightened, with some good editing.

Delilah J. Anders · Apr 25, 2017

Melody Delgado said:
Jumping in to put my 2 cents in and agree with all the advice you've gotten. My historical romance coming in May is 84,000 words, which is on the long side for a romance, but okay because historical novels can be a bit longer. Mine will be a series of three stories, but all connected by the nation, time period and basic group of friends and foes. My first could be a stand alone and is complete. The next two will include characters from the first story, but each new romance will be resolved with each book. Nothing will be left hanging as far as that is concerned. I've yet to see a romance series that keeps the reader hanging past the first book, as far as the main couple, and there are a few romance series out there. Other series that are not romances may do that, but not this genre. My advice is to get a freelance editor to take a look, if you can afford to do that. Maybe no plot points can be cut, but how you get from point to point should be able to be tightened, with some good editing.

Thanks for the suggestion.. I'll look into a freelance editor.. As much as I don't want to compare, and because word count is my Achilles here, I checked the word count for each of the 50 shades books and they were all roughly 150k each. I guess my thinking, or maybe hope, is that will draw the same type of audience who was into the scenes, but also were pulled to the romance of the two of them. I have purposefully not read or seen any of that series, based on the numerous reviews I have seen about it, don't want to. Based on the ones who have read both mine and hers, they said they preferred my writing as it didn't feel "amateur" and was more relatable .. again I hate to use a comparison because all writers have their own strengths and weaknesses, but this is the only one that is close to genre that is more than just a stand alone to use as reference.

cornflake · Apr 25, 2017

You have way more than two books worth of words there. I guarantee yours can be cut. I'd also question the wc you've got on 50 Shades. I'm not positive but I don't think those were close to that.

When you've got 50 posts, you can put some of your thing up for critique in the Share Your Work section and see what people here think because I agree betas who didn't question a 350k-word romance are not experienced betas.

LJD · Apr 25, 2017

cornflake said:
You have way more than two books worth of words there. I guarantee yours can be cut. I'd also question the wc you've got on 50 Shades. I'm not positive but I don't think those were close to that.

I believe it. I read the first book, and yeah, it's pretty long. Definitely longer than the standard romance novel.

LJD · Apr 25, 2017

Delilah J. Anders said:
To answer a few of the questions.. its adult romance/erotic (as to genre, do I need to keep it to one of these or the other? The sex scenes are explicit to push it over the "romance" aspect so wasn't sure because it isn't just that, it does have plot and development) and it's 352k words.. It does have all the requested/required things that this genre wants.. that I have seen.

This makes me wonder how familiar you actually are with the genre....why aren't you simply calling it erotic romance (?) and just because something is erotic doesn't mean there's no plot/development. And even a lot of non-erotic romances have reasonably explicit sex scenes.

Unimportant · Apr 25, 2017

My first understanding is that erotica is driven by the sex: that is, if you cut out the explicit descriptions and just said 'and then they had sex' the entire plot would fall apart. The plotline itself is dependent on the sex. Erotic romance, then, would be a romance in which the relationship-plotline is driven by the sex activities themselves. Otherwise it's romance: the romance plotline would work regardless of sex frequency, type, etc. And romance can be anything from sweet fade-to-black to super-explicit.

My second understanding is that 50 Shades was originally self published stand-alone fanfic, and when it sold like wildfire was picked up by a commercial publisher. In a sense, the author proved that a book 'too long' for conventional wisdom could sell. But that doesn't necessarily extrapolate to other books, other first-time authors, or non-standalones.

Hiring an editor may be useful. Some of them -- Debra Doyle comes to mind -- will edit the first chapter for a cut rate, and that might help you to see if paying to have the whole thing edited will be of use in significantly reducing the word count of the whole manuscript.

Cyia · Apr 25, 2017

Delilah J. Anders said:
Thanks for the suggestion.. I'll look into a freelance editor.. As much as I don't want to compare, and because word count is my Achilles here, I checked the word count for each of the 50 shades books and they were all roughly 150k each. I guess my thinking, or maybe hope, is that will draw the same type of audience who was into the scenes, but also were pulled to the romance of the two of them. I have purposefully not read or seen any of that series, based on the numerous reviews I have seen about it, don't want to. Based on the ones who have read both mine and hers, they said they preferred my writing as it didn't feel "amateur" and was more relatable .. again I hate to use a comparison because all writers have their own strengths and weaknesses, but this is the only one that is close to genre that is more than just a stand alone to use as reference.

I really do hate to burst your bubble with this, but the "mine's written better than 50SoG" thing means nothing. That series had TWO built-in audiences when it was first published. First, it had the twi-Moms who elevated it to viral status as a piece of Twilight fanfic, then it had the Manhattan Moms, who took control of the train and drove it home. It was a safe bet, and not originally published by its current publisher. The author filed off the fanfic serial numbers and ran it through a press specializing in revamped fanfiction pieces. Once the demand outstripped that press, it was sold to the mainstream publisher that now has the rights.

In other words, saying "but 50SoG did..." is tantamount to assuming your book about wizard's school will be a multi-million dollar property because Harry Potter has its own theme park area or that your sick-teens-in-love novel will score a blockbuster movie slot because "The Fault in Our Stars."

These things are lightning in a bottle, and they don't have to be fair or make sense. They definitely don't serve as mile-markers for your own work.

(btw, I looked it up:

50SoG: 155749 words
50SD: 163159 words
50SF: 178400 words)

cornflake · Apr 25, 2017

Unimportant said:
My first understanding is that erotica is driven by the sex: that is, if you cut out the explicit descriptions and just said 'and then they had sex' the entire plot would fall apart. The plotline itself is dependent on the sex. Erotic romance, then, would be a romance in which the relationship-plotline is driven by the sex activities themselves. Otherwise it's romance: the romance plotline would work regardless of sex frequency, type, etc. And romance can be anything from sweet fade-to-black to super-explicit.

My second understanding is that 50 Shades was originally self published stand-alone fanfic, and when it sold like wildfire was picked up by a commercial publisher. In a sense, the author proved that a book 'too long' for conventional wisdom could sell. But that doesn't necessarily extrapolate to other books, other first-time authors, or non-standalones.

Hiring an editor may be useful. Some of them -- Debra Doyle comes to mind -- will edit the first chapter for a cut rate, and that might help you to see if paying to have the whole thing edited will be of use in significantly reducing the word count of the whole manuscript.

It was not self-pubbed. It was originally fanfic that got a ton of play online and was picked up by a small house that got publicity and sold it to RH iirc. I don't know where the self-pubbed thing came from, but it's irksomely persistent (in a general sense, not related to you or AW or anything).

Unimportant · Apr 25, 2017

Ah, sorry, my bad. I think I considered 'available to read online fanfic' to be the equivalant of self published, but I'm a bit out of the loop.

Delilah J. Anders · Apr 25, 2017

Cyia said:
I really do hate to burst your bubble with this, but the "mine's written better than 50SoG" thing means nothing. That series had TWO built-in audiences when it was first published. First, it had the twi-Moms who elevated it to viral status as a piece of Twilight fanfic, then it had the Manhattan Moms, who took control of the train and drove it home. It was a safe bet, and not originally published by its current publisher. The author filed off the fanfic serial numbers and ran it through a press specializing in revamped fanfiction pieces. Once the demand outstripped that press, it was sold to the mainstream publisher that now has the rights.

In other words, saying "but 50SoG did..." is tantamount to assuming your book about wizard's school will be a multi-million dollar property because Harry Potter has its own theme park area or that your sick-teens-in-love novel will score a blockbuster movie slot because "The Fault in Our Stars."

These things are lightning in a bottle, and they don't have to be fair or make sense. They definitely don't serve as mile-markers for your own work.

(btw, I looked it up:

50SoG: 155749 words
50SD: 163159 words
50SF: 178400 words)

No bubble burst here so no worries..

I hated to even use that as a comparison of such, other than the sexual content and multiple books. I have done some research on James so knew the route she took ( mostly as part of instructions on how to find an agent/publisher with that genre) .. Since I haven't read any of it I can't say from personal opinion about the quality of the writing, only from what I have read of reviews and critiques, so while she obviously has done well, I wasn't especially thrilled about an actual comparison of her writing and my own. I was only relaying what has been told to me, not what I actually think, from those that have read both

And those are the same numbers I got for the word count on those books as well.

Can it be done?

Delilah J. Anders

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

Delilah J. Anders

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

Delilah J. Anders

Delilah J. Anders

Aggy B.

Not as sweet as you think

Delilah J. Anders

Mary Love

Delilah J. Anders

JJ Litke

People are not wearing enough hats

Melody

Writer of MG, YA and Adult

Delilah J. Anders

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

LJD

LJD

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Unimportant

No COVID yet. Still masking.

Delilah J. Anders