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Jason
04-14-2017, 08:57 PM
Official Trailer released:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB4I68XVPzQ

Is it time for the Jedi to end according to Luke?

http://www.eonline.com/news/843563/star-wars-the-last-jedi-trailer-luke-skywalker-tells-rey-it-s-time-for-the-jedi-to-end

BenPanced
04-14-2017, 09:31 PM
:snoopy::popcorn::banana::Jaw::e2bear::e2woo:

mellymel
04-15-2017, 12:36 AM
Was just coming to post it, but you beat me to it. I am so SO excited. Like, I had tears in my eyes and goosebumps covering me from head to toe as I watched it. I have been watching the Star Wars Celebration on Youtube and enjoying it so much. Cannot wait for this movie to come out!!!

Noizchild
04-15-2017, 02:52 AM
So will we find out if she's Luke's daughter or not?

Jason
04-15-2017, 03:31 AM
That is one of the burning questions isn't it?

Frankie007
04-15-2017, 05:02 AM
my body is ready!

V.J. Allison
04-15-2017, 03:50 PM
Oh my goodness, I can't wait!!! Eight months to go. :snoopy::hooray:

Brechin Frost
04-15-2017, 07:09 PM
I'm very excited about this!

Although, I hate how early the trailers get posted these days, because now I've seen the trailer and have to wait three quarters of a year to see it in theatre.

Jason
04-16-2017, 08:08 AM
Yup, the marketing and hype over pretty much anything surrounding the Star Wars franchise has gotten to an order of magnitude that people slurp it up like Kool-Ade when it eventually does make it out. Of course, I was right there seeing it in my news feed when the news broke, so that makes me part of those guilty of slurping! LOL :)

Sage
04-17-2017, 07:30 AM
The side-by-side comparison of the Last Jedi trailer to the Force Awakens trailer is interesting. The studio knows what works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=natYlF3dikY

Jason
04-17-2017, 07:37 AM
Oh my GOD - the parallels are so blatant, it's almost sick. I'd fall over laughing if it wasn't so...uh, well, sad, in a way.

Markiemoo
04-17-2017, 08:12 AM
Major Star Wars fan here (and known in the fandom). I am very doubtful that it's Luke's voice saying The Jedi must end

TCnKC
04-26-2017, 09:07 PM
Very few trailers can give me goosebumps. Game of Thrones has on occasion but this... THIS *goosebumps*

Brechin Frost
04-26-2017, 09:42 PM
It looks like Luke saying the Jedi will end; you can see his mouth move during that line. Unless they overlapped someone else's dialogue over the movement of his mouth.

It makes sense for him to say it. The Jedi and Sith represent this duality, existing in contrast and opposition to each other; if Luke has been looking for answers, searching for a means to balance the force, the answer is adopting a pluralistic view, since people are neither all good or all bad (as seen with Darth Vader) forcing them into Light and Dark/Good and Bad only widens the divide and causes disharmony. The idea that the dogmatic Jedi need to end to also bring an end to the Sith and thus balance the force is a more complex understanding of human nature and a more modern approach to storytelling.

Cyia
04-26-2017, 09:52 PM
It doesn't sound like his voice for the first part of the sentence, though. It sounds like they've blended two statements together. (it's kind of hard to tell with Mark Hamill, as he's pretty good with altering his voice)

I'm wondering more about the "moving rocks" shot. It's framed to make it look like Rey's raising the rocks with the Force, but the way they're moving makes me think maybe it's the vibration of a landing ship. She's gone through something that leaves her gasping, maybe seen a premonition, and now there's a ship landing to make things worse.

angeliz2k
04-26-2017, 11:50 PM
It seems to me the simplest answer is probably the best here: that it is Luke's voice, and that it is Ray levitating the pebbles. If it weren't Luke speaking, it would seem like trickery to no real purpose. Why would the filmmakers purposefully mislead fans that way? It would just irritate people. Besides, Luke has plenty of reason to be a bit grumpy, and in the post above Brechin gives a good explanation of why he might want the Jedi to end. I think that's his starting point and that Ray changes his mind. After all, he *does* end up training her. The trailer makes that pretty clear.

JimmyB27
04-28-2017, 06:18 PM
The idea that the dogmatic Jedi need to end to also bring an end to the Sith and thus balance the force is a more complex understanding of human nature and a more modern approach to storytelling.

This is why Jolee Bindo (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jolee_Bindo) was always my favourite Star Wars universe character.



I think that's his starting point and that Ray changes his mind. After all, he *does* end up training her. The trailer makes that pretty clear.

Or, rather than Rey changing his mind, he trains her as the first of a new breed of Force user, neither Sith nor Jedi. Neither Light nor Dark, but balanced.

Brechin Frost
04-29-2017, 03:01 AM
This is why Jolee Bindo (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jolee_Bindo) was always my favourite Star Wars universe character.

I like him. I also really like Ahsoka Tano. She has always struggled with the rigidity of the Jedi code. Her apprenticeship with Anakin shows what a well-balanced person with a lot of his personality traits would be like. Her later abandonment of the Jedi and subsequent "Grey Jedi" status also shows that one can accept both sides of their nature and still do and fight for what's right.



Or, rather than Rey changing his mind, he trains her as the first of a new breed of Force user, neither Sith nor Jedi. Neither Light nor Dark, but balanced.

I like this interpretation the best.

Whether they (the studio and creative team) are willing to diverge from the established Jedi code and the Jedi brand is a big question.

This seems like a great idea. Rey comes with her preconceived notion of Jedi, but Luke's seen what happens when you train them using the dogmatic Jedi code. Not only does it force an equally extreme opposite but when initiates can't maintain it, it pushes them to the dark side. If Anakin had been allowed to express his full range of emotion and lived a full life, he'd have been better equipped to deal with issues he faced and not forced to live so much of his life internally and hidden.

Jason
04-29-2017, 04:04 AM
Lots of exciting ideas floating around here, how in the world can I be expected to wait until December for this movie? I hate Disney! :Headbang:

Jason
05-03-2017, 08:51 AM
Oh - FYI - Star Wars Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Day) is almost upon us! :)

Enjoy your DVR on TBS (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/05/02/star-wars-marathon-on-tbs-may-the-fourth/#)

0640 a.m. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
0925 a.m. Star Wars: Attack of the Clones
1220 p.m. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith
1510 p.m. Star Wars: A New Hope
1740 p.m. Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back
2015 p.m. Star Wars: Return of the Jedi

Frankie007
05-03-2017, 06:13 PM
Oh - FYI - Star Wars Day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Day) is almost upon us! :)

Enjoy your DVR on TBS (http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/05/02/star-wars-marathon-on-tbs-may-the-fourth/#)

0640 a.m. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace
0925 a.m. Star Wars: Attack of the Clones
1220 p.m. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith
1510 p.m. Star Wars: A New Hope
1740 p.m. Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back
2015 p.m. Star Wars: Return of the Jedi

better go out and by snacks tonite! i'm thinking tomorrow is Pizza day!

Rachel77
05-03-2017, 07:35 PM
I like this interpretation the best.

Same here.


Whether they (the studio and creative team) are willing to diverge from the established Jedi code and the Jedi brand is a big question.

Snoke does say in The Force Awakens that if Luke starts training again, the "new Jedi" will rise. I can see the name "Jedi" persisting, even if the meaning changes. And most people in the galaxy probably wouldn't know the difference between the old Jedi and a new kind of Force user, as long as the new ones aren't actively evil. Maybe they'll just be "New Jedi" as Snoke calls them, like the government was the "New Republic".

Teinz
05-04-2017, 03:52 PM
I'm excited!

Jason
05-04-2017, 04:47 PM
May the Fourth be With You All...

Keithy
05-06-2017, 05:38 PM
counting down the days... cant wait.

Jason
05-07-2017, 07:16 AM
I had to teach Thursday, is it wrong I stayed up until 1am to binge watch the original trilogy? LOL

Jason
11-14-2017, 12:44 AM
31 days and counting - tickets are now available! Who's going to the premiere? I am waiting to go with family upon my arrival in Charleston after Christmas (probably the 26th or 27th)... :)

rugcat
12-11-2017, 01:26 AM
The Last Jedi premiered in Los Angeles and although reviews are not in, viewer reactions are. People seem quite pleased with the film. Here are some Twitter comments as far as I can tell there are no spoilers:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-reactions-premiere-1064199

Teinz
12-11-2017, 08:10 PM
Damn Rugcat, wish you hadn't posted that. Now my mind will not give me any rest, until I've seen it.

cmhbob
12-15-2017, 11:53 PM
Saw it last night in 3D. My official verdict: good flick.

Several questions answered.
Several more left unanswered.
Some satisfying deaths. Some unsatisfying deaths.
Great bomber scene that felt like an homage to World War 2 bomber crews.
A new love story.
Learned some things about the Force.
I was left wondering how a couple of things happened, like how DJ had time to get caught and make a deal with the First Order. I also wasn't clear about the tracking of the Resistance Fleet. Hus made it sound like there was a device on one of the ships that they were tracking.
Several funny moments with Chewbacca, Luke, and R2.
A poignant tribute to Carrie Fisher at the end.

Definitely worth seeing though.

playground
12-18-2017, 01:01 AM
Saw it last night in 3D. My official verdict: good flick.

Several questions answered.
Several more left unanswered.
Some satisfying deaths. Some unsatisfying deaths.
Great bomber scene that felt like an homage to World War 2 bomber crews.
A new love story.
Learned some things about the Force.
I was left wondering how a couple of things happened, like how DJ had time to get caught and make a deal with the First Order. I also wasn't clear about the tracking of the Resistance Fleet. Hus made it sound like there was a device on one of the ships that they were tracking.
Several funny moments with Chewbacca, Luke, and R2.
A poignant tribute to Carrie Fisher at the end.

Definitely worth seeing though.


Was the tribute after the credits? The credits started rolling and my friend and I left. CRUUDDDD

cmhbob
12-18-2017, 01:08 AM
About a minute in, I think. It was a dedication to "Our Princess." I think it was after the cast and before the crew.

Alessandra Kelley
12-18-2017, 04:56 AM
About a minute in, I think. It was a dedication to "Our Princess." I think it was after the cast and before the crew.

They played her theme softly on the piano. We all teared up.

Jason
12-18-2017, 07:12 AM
Not gonna read those spoiler-notes...nope, not gunna do it.
And just thinking about the Carrie Fisher homage got me choked up..
We’re going as a group on the 26th...

Diana Hignutt
12-18-2017, 05:16 PM
Okay, I loved it. Clearly the best of the post-original trilogy films, and probably better than Return of the Jedi.

RichardGarfinkle
12-18-2017, 05:33 PM
I did enjoy it. Some scenes I really liked. That one Leia scene was great.
Some unexpected twists and turns.

I had one writerly problem with it: It felt like each scene was well done, but that they didn't fit together as well as they should have.

And I had one fannish problem: It felt like they were crossing off the aspects of the original trilogy rather than going forward from them. Luke and Chewie have one interaction together, as do Luke and Leia. So many years have passed and so much has happened that they needed more than that.

Twick
12-18-2017, 07:00 PM
You may have noticed that the audience rating on sites like Rotten Tomatoes is weirdly low compared to critic scores and CinemaScore (which is the reaction of audiences leaving the theatre first weekend). Apparently the "deplorables" have decided that The Last Jedi is a bastion of progressivism, and is rattling over the internet giving 1/10 ratings and writing rants that "this is the worst movie EVAR!"

I found a number of commentators on twitter who appear to be bots attacking the film. They have names like "Deborah12234442," they have no personal tweets, and very few follows/followers. Many include #MAGA or #Foxnews as their follows. It wasn't until one mentioned the magic code "full of SJWs" that I understood why Putin hates Star Wars.

cmhbob
12-18-2017, 09:28 PM
Luke and Chewie have one interaction together, as do Luke and Leia. So many years have passed and so much has happened that they needed more than that.

Remember when Han died in TFA and Leia felt it, as far away as she was? Well, why didn't Luke sense the death of his brother-in-law, or the anguish of his sister? Why did he have to ask where Han was after Chewie kicked the door in?

Diana Hignutt
12-18-2017, 09:30 PM
Remember when Han died in TFA and Leia felt it, as far away as she was? Well, why didn't Luke sense the death of his brother-in-law, or the anguish of his sister? Why did he have to ask where Han was after Chewie kicked the door in?

You may recall that Luke had cut himself off from the Force...

MythMonger
12-19-2017, 01:35 AM
You may have noticed that the audience rating on sites like Rotten Tomatoes is weirdly low compared to critic scores and CinemaScore (which is the reaction of audiences leaving the theatre first weekend). Apparently the "deplorables" have decided that The Last Jedi is a bastion of progressivism, and is rattling over the internet giving 1/10 ratings and writing rants that "this is the worst movie EVAR!"

I found a number of commentators on twitter who appear to be bots attacking the film. They have names like "Deborah12234442," they have no personal tweets, and very few follows/followers. Many include #MAGA or #Foxnews as their follows. It wasn't until one mentioned the magic code "full of SJWs" that I understood why Putin hates Star Wars.

I think the porgs have a better chance against Chewbacca than the trolls have against Star Wars.

Twick
12-19-2017, 01:54 AM
I think the porgs have a better chance against Chewbacca than the trolls have against Star Wars.

Lol! I want a gif of "porg watching best friend be eaten by a Wookiee."

I agree as to their chances, although the movement seems to have inspired a certain number of newswriters to start calling Jedi "divisive," apparently thinking it's a genuine clash of opinions about the quality of the movie.

Albedo
12-19-2017, 02:21 AM
You may have noticed that the audience rating on sites like Rotten Tomatoes is weirdly low compared to critic scores and CinemaScore (which is the reaction of audiences leaving the theatre first weekend). Apparently the "deplorables" have decided that The Last Jedi is a bastion of progressivism, and is rattling over the internet giving 1/10 ratings and writing rants that "this is the worst movie EVAR!"

I found a number of commentators on twitter who appear to be bots attacking the film. They have names like "Deborah12234442," they have no personal tweets, and very few follows/followers. Many include #MAGA or #Foxnews as their follows. It wasn't until one mentioned the magic code "full of SJWs" that I understood why Putin hates Star Wars.
We live in the weirdest timeline. A lot of the negative reviews on Rotten Tomatoes are from users with only one review to their names. Oddly well written in the style of much plaintive nerd rage, which makes me think they're being written by actual people, but I wouldn't put it past the troll farms to unleash the bots.

i just question, in this case ... why? I don't know anyone who pays attention to the user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. The aggregate critic score is the only one that matters. All that effort isn't going to stop this movie making billions of dollars.

cmhbob
12-19-2017, 06:57 AM
You may recall that Luke...

Ah, I'd forgotten that.

villain_fan
12-20-2017, 03:15 AM
I agree as to their chances, although the movement seems to have inspired a certain number of newswriters to start calling Jedi "divisive," apparently thinking it's a genuine clash of opinions about the quality of the movie.

There is a genuine clash of opinions about the quality of the movie. At least, with die-hard Stat Wars fans (and those are the people most likely to be most vocal about their opinions and go out their way to review/rate the movie). General audience members will largely go away happy and Disney have accomplished their main goal of appealing to a new generation of fans with their new generation of characters, but a quick visit to any of the fan forums or watch of some YouTube reviews will show that this genuinely is a (if not the most) polarising Star Wars movie. I'm not saying all the RT ratings are definitely legit or that there aren't trolls out there, but it would be wrong to say there isn't actual divide over this movie with fans or that there aren't rationale reasons for thinking it's a bad Star Wars movie.

Keithy
12-20-2017, 06:27 AM
I'm a die-hard Star Wars fan - and I find myself liking it more the more I think about it. I liked the playing with expectations. I liked the plot twists. (Why does everyone have to be the child of someone important?)
Who really is the villain?

I'm considering a re-watch.

I'd definitely getting a porg.

playground
12-22-2017, 07:51 PM
I'm a die-hard Star Wars fan - and I find myself liking it more the more I think about it. I liked the playing with expectations. I liked the plot twists. (Why does everyone have to be the child of someone important?)
Who really is the villain?

I'm considering a re-watch.

I'd definitely getting a porg.



I agree, I like that not everyone is related. The gripe I have is with Abrams. He set up all these things and when he handed it over to Johnson he gave him a blank slate to do whatever he wants. I'm cool with a lot of the decisions made but when something like that happens it means he doesn't have a solid plan on the ending, something I feel you should have some idea about when making a trilogy.

Twick
12-22-2017, 09:43 PM
It's always acceptable to not like a movie. Some people can't bear RoTJ because of the ewoks. But when people start brigading review sites to give a movie 1/10 ratings when it's at least *adequate* is either overwrought emotionalism (in a fandom? Never!) or something more sinister.

If you tell me reasons why you didn't like it, I'll accept those, if you also agree to at least consider the strengths I found in it. If you rant about how it's the "worst movie EVAR!" and then let slip something about "Star Wars was ruined by SJWs" I know where you stand.

cmhbob
12-22-2017, 10:40 PM
Watched it again last night, and a few things clicked into place.

Spoilers(ish) When Snoke(?) or Kylo(?) uttered at the beginning of TFA "There's been an awakening," everyone assumed it was Rey. But something happened to Finn too. I think the Awakening was akin to the rending of the temple curtain that was supposed to have occurred at the moment Christ died. I think the "Jedi curtain" was torn so that someone no longer requires a Jedi Master to train them, but does need a teacher to guide them, much as people no longer need prophets and priests to be able to hear God speak.

Just MHO, and I haven't read enough background material to understand exactly how Force training worked. But it was always my understanding that Force sensitivity was genetic. Then again, I learned yesterday in some article that Anakin didn't have parents, that he was created by one of the Sith lords.

BTW< the spoiler color I use is f2f2f2.

Alessandra Kelley
12-23-2017, 12:15 AM
I a a die hard Star Wars fan, too, since the very first movie. Listened to the LP of the soundtrack until it wore out. Still have my original action figures.

I enjoyed this movie very much. Not saying it hasn’t got flaws, but still quite enjoyable.

angeliz2k
12-23-2017, 01:58 AM
I saw it again and some of the things that bothered me the first time were less bothersome the second time around. I like the story there, and most the ideas are great, but the execution just missed (for me) by a hair. The humor didn't quite hit and there were moments that should have made more sense the first time 'round . . . All in all, it was good, but just barely. And I liked The Force Awakens much more (rewatched it this week). The Last Jedi didn't follow through on the things that TFA set up--it felt like they went out of way to subvert things from TFA, in fact, which was offputting in itself and led to some choices that I felt didn't serve the story (e.g. Luke tossing the light saber--that will never be okay with me). I'm really interested to see what happens now that J.J. is back for Episode IX.

Keithy
12-28-2017, 03:04 AM
Hmm, I just watched the Vader-Luke fight from Empire strikes back and considered how well Luke did. He did OK at first, getting out of trouble a couple of times, but Vader's skill wore him down and he chopped his hand off, giving Luke no chance in the end. Which is consistent with some training in the force, although as Vader said,"You are not a Jedi yet". I always thought that the period of training Luke received was ludicrously short in order to face off against Vader and it is to his credit that he did as well as he did - probably that was more due to his "power" rather "skill" with the force. Note that his upbringing was on a farm owned by a couple who seemed to have no fighting skill to pass on other than pointing a blaster and pulling a trigger. Perhaps not even that.

Contrast that with the Rey situation. It is obvious that in her existence on Jakku was one of self-reliance, quite different from Luke's, and from TFA it is clear she has some considerable fighting skill, although not with the lightsaber. In itself that does not explain her skill with the latter weapon and certainly not her appellation of "Jedi" - for one thing, she would normally need to go through the Jedi Trials in order to attain that rank. Waving a lightsaber about, cutting a rock in half and winning a couple of brief fights isn't nearly enough. Vader acknowledges that Luke has had some training, but at no point does he name him a Jedi, and losing a fight certainly doesn't count as a complete and successful Jedi Trial. So perhaps the accusation that Rey's character is a "Mary Sue" has some validity (Ridley's rejection of the accusation on the basis of "sexism" is ridiculous - she is an actress, not a writer, and the name of the trope is nothing to do with the sex of the character concerned). Perhaps in the context of the story or character (or "equality"), it would not be acceptable to have her lose a fight (and a limb). Whatever happened has happened and cannot be erased.

Hmm. Maybe she isn't quite the Mary Sue some people think she is. Two possible reasons, one more plausible than the other. The first thing we know is that the Force has awakened. Quite what exactly that means I'm not sure, but possibly that means the Force is more accessible and by extension easier to learn and use. What has that to do with lightsaber combat? Well, one of the basics of learning that weapon is using the force to control the blade, presumably to stop nasty self-inflicted injuries (perhaps it can be used to prevent paper cuts?) One of the important facts arising from "Rogue One" is how many force-sensitives there are; they use the force in ways the Jedi don't seem to (check out Chirrut Imwe). The second reason might be that Rey is the force personified, which gives her a natural talent in its uses. I don't give this idea much credence, although I have read it elsewhere and cannot rule it out. As far as I can remember she does not claim to be a Jedi, and it may be that being a trained Jedi is now irrelevant; the force is now undivided, with light and dark sides being of small importance.

No doubt we will never know for sure where her skills come from, and my logic, based on what little we know, might well be incorrect. Perhaps she really is a Mary Sue and all the rest of it doesn't matter. But I'd like to think there's some vague thread of reason in the Force Awakens and Last Jedi. So when's episode IX coming?

Max Vaehling
12-28-2017, 04:17 AM
Contrast that with the Rey situation. It is obvious that in her existence on Jakku was one of self-reliance, quite different from Luke's, and from TFA it is clear she has some considerable fighting skill, although not with the lightsaber. In itself that does not explain her skill with the latter weapon and certainly not her appellation of "Jedi" - for one thing, she would normally need to go through the Jedi Trials in order to attain that rank. Waving a lightsaber about, cutting a rock in half and winning a couple of brief fights isn't nearly enough. Vader acknowledges that Luke has had some training, but at no point does he name him a Jedi, and losing a fight certainly doesn't count as a complete and successful Jedi Trial. So perhaps the accusation that Rey's character is a "Mary Sue" has some validity (Ridley's rejection of the accusation on the basis of "sexism" is ridiculous - she is an actress, not a writer, and the name of the trope is nothing to do with the sex of the character concerned). Perhaps in the context of the story or character (or "equality"), it would not be acceptable to have her lose a fight (and a limb). Whatever happened has happened and cannot be erased.

I just watched an unbearable right-wing review of both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. Apparently, every diverse character is a 'token' something or other, everybody involved witrh this generation of Star Wars movies is from the far left, especially J.J. Abrams, and yes, every woman who has skills is a Mary Sue. So, while the term probably shouldn't be gender-specific, its use sure is. Also, the rebellion is all 'femininity against the male establishment' and that's why they lose in The Last Jedi because, women, right?

As for Rey's skills, my head canon is close to yours - the Force is so strong in Rey because it needs somebody to balance Kylo's Dark Side antics and the Jedi aren't doing much right now. Maybe it's a bit like a seed growing a new seedling after the last one (the Jedi) has run its course and who knows how this one will turn out? (Actually, I'd like that. It would also explain all the new force skills we're seeing in this one.)

Also, Rey's used to fighting with her staff. Can't be that much harder with a light saber.

I wonder how much of what we think we know about the Force is really just what the Jedi told us (or., more to the point, each other) all this time. One thing I wondered when Rey entered the Dark Force hole without, as it seems, being affected by it: is the separation between the Dark Side and the Light a necessary feature of the Force? Or is it maybe a by-product of the Jedi using exclusively the light aspects and leaving the dark out to dry? Without the emphasis of one or the other - is there such a thing as a Mellow Side?

Introversion
12-28-2017, 07:08 AM
Also, Rey's used to fighting with her staff. Can't be that much harder with a light saber.

Unless you have a "double-ended" light saber, seems more like a short sword than a staff? Not nearly as much reach.

Also, a light saber is a blade that's sharp on every surface. Very hard not to maim or kill an opponent with one. Probably have to learn not to injure yourself with one too, I'd think?

Cyia
12-30-2017, 09:58 PM
FINALLY got to go see this. I ADORE Rose's character. No powers, no fighting skills, just a ton of determination, love for her sister, and dedication to her beliefs. She's the kind of character who could accidentally kill the big bad by tagging along with the main heroes and defending her friends.

I very much think they could sell the idea of Finn as Luke's son to bring in a new generation of Skywalkers. He's used Luke's lighsaber, and he's a bit too "lucky" for a non-force user.

Kinda wish they'd included a few more force ghosts in there - plenty of the actors who played in the prequels are still alive to shoot new footage. It would have even been a nice nod to show force-ghost Luke signing off to Leia at the end.

Also, I know they were taking advantage of the footage Carrie Fisher had shot, but it wouldn't have taken much to switch her position with Laura Dern's Vice Admiral to have Leia be the one who rammed the Star Destroyer at light speed. That would have been an epic send-off for the princess turned rebel general.

ManInBlack
01-02-2018, 01:27 AM
Also, I know they were taking advantage of the footage Carrie Fisher had shot, but it wouldn't have taken much to switch her position with Laura Dern's Vice Admiral to have Leia be the one who rammed the Star Destroyer at light speed. That would have been an epic send-off for the princess turned rebel general.
This is reasonable, until you realize that then Luke would have lacked a conduit through which to channel his illusion. I suppose that entire scene could have been reshot, but it wouldn't nearly have been as powerful a scene without it starting and ending with Leia.

TCnKC
01-02-2018, 09:25 PM
I very much think they could sell the idea of Finn as Luke's son to bring in a new generation of Skywalkers. He's used Luke's lighsaber, and he's a bit too "lucky" for a non-force user.


1)In the star wars universe(and a lot of movies to be honest) 'luck' is relative. How many people(who are supposedly trained to shoot) so terrible with accuracy around our 'hero(s)?'
and
2)As for Finn, he was a Storm Trooper. We've already seen that some of them were trained to fight Jedi or people with sabers. No reason why Finn couldn't have had this training to some degree as well.

Lastly, I'm tired of this trope about family heritage and it explaining why characters are good at something. If it's part of the story, fine but we should never have writers saying "Well, how can we explain this character's skills? I know he's so and so's son(or daughter!)" It's lazy IMO and would diminishe the character. Finn is perfectly fine the way he is(solid even.) The whole point of this Jedi movie with his character development was spot on IMO. I would go into detail but spoilers and all that.

Twick
01-02-2018, 11:34 PM
I'm not sure why so many people running around shouting "Mary Sues!" at Rey and Finn when it's known that there's a Force, some people have, or at least can access it, to a high degree even without training, and for goodness sake Luke Skywalker destroyed the Death Star with about an afternoon's worth of training from Obi-Wan. At least Rey had learned to use a staff from childhood and Finn had army training. Luke just practiced slaughter of rodents of unusual size.

It's almost as if there's a difference having a white woman or a black man be good at the Force without much training versus a white teenager.

ElaineA
01-17-2018, 11:23 PM
Finally just saw the movie and I have questions.

1) Were these people yelling Mary Sue yelling it after TFA, too? I don't remember, maybe they were, but Rey & Finn were both mind-boggling in their natural skill with the light saber in that movie, too. It struck me as I sat in the theater to wonder just how, but of course, by then I'd already seen Rey fly the junked Millennium Falcon as effortlessly as Han, so my suspension of disbelief was already fully engaged. Why is it more of a problem with this movie?

2) I love the final image, and the idea that the Force isn't only some kind of familial legacy, but I'm not sold on Kylo's version of Ren's background. If she turns out to be his primary foe, it certainly would be in his interest to both convince her that she's a nobody (assuming, his superiority-complexed mind believes he CAN convince her of this), and more importantly, to convince the powerful people of the various planets and systems she's not worth siding with. "She's a drink-addled junk-trader's daughter, she can't lead the galaxy" as political mud is a pretty classic ploy. I keep thinking about his statement, "they sold you for drink" or whatever it was, vs the image of her memory from TFA, with her crying, dressed in nice-seeming clothes, looking up, the ship streaking through the sky. I mean, it all could just be jumbled-together memories misleading her, but I can't shake the suspicion there's still more to her background than we know. There's also Maz's cryptic words to Rey.

3) I don't get why the TrollBros have their tighty-whities in a bunch. Being aware there was "an issue" I was trying to pay attention and watch for the Big Moment that would turn the movie into a SJW Bullhorn. Alas, it never came. What I did see was a movie that shamelessly had a woman or female-presenting character in almost every scene. *gasp* But in almost every scene where a W/F-P character did Something Competent, there was still a man/male-presenting character next to her in the scene, physically or psychically (Frex, Luke was "there" mentally when Rey went into the dark hole, and Kylo was "there" mentally when she was examining herself in the ice). So the fact is, but for the very last act by Laura Dern's Admiral Holdo, W/W-P characters were only ever, at most, 50% of the characters in a scene. And this is what is problematic for the SJW-Screaming crowd? Close to 50/50 rep?

Anyway, I liked the movie. I need to see it again because we had terrible seats and I feel like I missed a lot of detail. I think I still like TFA better because it was the thrilling introduction of new blood into the SW movie universe. This one felt like a middle-of-the-trilogy movie to me, and also I thought it could have used some more "kill your darlings" editing. But those are quibbles. Unlike the Anakin origin movies (1,2,3) I will have no trouble watching TLJ multiple times.

Max Vaehling
01-18-2018, 03:53 AM
1) Were these people yelling Mary Sue yelling it after TFA, too? I don't remember, maybe they were, but Rey & Finn were both mind-boggling in their natural skill with the light saber in that movie, too. It struck me as I sat in the theater to wonder just how, but of course, by then I'd already seen Rey fly the junked Millennium Falcon as effortlessly as Han, so my suspension of disbelief was already fully engaged. Why is it more of a problem with this movie?

I think that claim has been around ever since TFA launched, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Maybe it didn't lead into all-out hostility as long as her skills could in theory be traced back to one of those two special families, but I do remember the Mary Sue term coming up here and there.


But in almost every scene where a W/F-P character did Something Competent, there was still a man/male-presenting character next to her in the scene, physically or psychically (Frex, Luke was "there" mentally when Rey went into the dark hole, and Kylo was "there" mentally when she was examining herself in the ice). So the fact is, but for the very last act by Laura Dern's Admiral Holdo, W/W-P characters were only ever, at most, 50% of the characters in a scene. And this is what is problematic for the SJW-Screaming crowd? Close to 50/50 rep?

From what I remember of the very bad video I mentioned up-thread, it's all about who's in charge. Leia and Holdo are the highest-ranking rebels we see, and the one remaining (male) Jedi master refuses to lead, making the resistance pretty much a matriarchy (yes, that's how they called it). The one sub-plot that's male-dominated (because Rose is involved in the planning, but only along with Finn and Poe), fails. Which clearly makes it all one big SJW lie to make males look incompetent and/or evil (since the First Order is pretty much the opposite of the rebellion, gender-wise). All of this is, of course, entirely different from when Luke failed to save his friends in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK while they were fighting an all-male Empire and Leia was already outranking them all in the rebellion.

TCnKC
01-18-2018, 09:40 PM
Finally just saw the movie and I have questions.

1) Were these people yelling Mary Sue yelling it after TFA, too? I don't remember, maybe they were, but Rey & Finn were both mind-boggling in their natural skill with the light saber in that movie, too. It struck me as I sat in the theater to wonder just how, but of course, by then I'd already seen Rey fly the junked Millennium Falcon as effortlessly as Han, so my suspension of disbelief was already fully engaged. Why is it more of a problem with this movie?


Most, not all, of the people screaming in this movie know why they are doing it. We all do. This petty 'male injustice' nonsense is pathetic. However, if I may, I want to discuss this notion of Rey & Finn were too skilled in TFA with light saber fighting, etc. Rey wasn't some wonderer from a desert planet who hid in fear of everyone or everything. She was a fighter. We saw her leap into God knows what kind of danger saving BB8. We saw her fight off two men trying to steal BB8. We saw her ability to wield a staff pretty well. A staff isn't a light saber obviously but they aren't completely foreign in resemblance from each other. There's also the fact that she would never had been able to do what she did in the forest against Kylo if he wasn't emotional a wreck after what he did previously before that scene. We even had Snoke comment on this(Kylo's imbalance.)

Also, in regards to Rey's flying ability. We were told and shown her ability around ships, etc. She had experience piloting and working on them. Finally, things didn't exactly go smoothly from the start. Rey didn't exactly fly the Falcon as effortlessly as Han. She nearly tore it in half getting it off the ground if you recall as her and Finn attempted their escape.

As for Finn, he was a storm trooper. We saw the other storm trooper use the weapon he did to fight Finn with a saber. I believe it's also been established in previous star wars mythology that storm troopers(or at least a certain sect of them) were trained to fight light saber wielders. In any event, we saw that at work in TFA against Finn so there's reasonable logic to believe that Finn himself had at least some workable knowledge in wielding a saber like weapon(much like the one who fought him did.)

I found it all believable based on the evidence that was provided so I never put stock into this Mary Sue nonsense like some apparently did but to each his/her own I guess

Cyia
01-18-2018, 11:20 PM
The only oddity with Finn and the lightsaber involves book-canon which may no longer apply. Supposedly only Jedi/Sith can wield a lightsaber because without the concentrated use of the Force, a stable blade won't form. To me, this lends weight to the idea that we're still getting a "Skywalker" story, we just haven't been told Finn's actual parentage.

My mother (of all people) actually watched TLJ and her take was that Finn and Rey are probably brother and sister (and both Skywalkers) to mirror Luke and Leia's relationship. That would make for a great reveal if it pans out. Luke's been out there for a while. He's a galactic legend. It's not hard to envision a scenario where he could have a few kids dotting the place, even if he doesn't know they're there.

Max Vaehling
01-19-2018, 12:58 AM
I really hope they don't turn out Skywalkers (or Kenobis). The mirroring of Leia and Luke would be in line with what this trilogy has done so far, but it would invalidate so much of TLJ that it wouldn't be worth it.

JimmyB27
01-20-2018, 01:54 AM
Supposedly only Jedi/Sith can wield a lightsaber because without the concentrated use of the Force, a stable blade won't form.

So how did Han cut open the taun-taun on Hoth?

lilyWhite
01-20-2018, 02:09 AM
The only oddity with Finn and the lightsaber involves book-canon which may no longer apply. Supposedly only Jedi/Sith can wield a lightsaber because without the concentrated use of the Force, a stable blade won't form. To me, this lends weight to the idea that we're still getting a "Skywalker" story, we just haven't been told Finn's actual parentage.

That isn't correct. The lightsaber blade itself is weightless and has a gyroscopic effect that makes it difficult to use and, given the nature of the weapon, extremely dangerous for someone who can't wield it properly.

However, I did see an image from one of the new-canon comics that had Han Solo wielding a lightsaber. He wasn't Force-sensitive in the original canon, so who knows if that bit of lore still applies.

ManInBlack
01-23-2018, 11:57 AM
The only oddity with Finn and the lightsaber involves book-canon which may no longer apply. Supposedly only Jedi/Sith can wield a lightsaber because without the concentrated use of the Force, a stable blade won't form. To me, this lends weight to the idea that we're still getting a "Skywalker" story, we just haven't been told Finn's actual parentage.

This may have been suggested at one point, but in the hundreds of Star Wars items I've consumed, this was never canon. Many Mandalorians, for instance, wielded lightsabers they took off their victims. There was the pretty big problem that without the Force you need to be a master swordsman not to accidentally maim yourself with a lightsaber, and a small number of lightsabers had the activation switch inside (requiring the Force to activate it, which may or may not be what you were referring to), but it was never generally required.

Keithy
01-24-2018, 01:43 AM
This may have been suggested at one point, but in the hundreds of Star Wars items I've consumed, this was never canon. Many Mandalorians, for instance, wielded lightsabers they took off their victims. There was the pretty big problem that without the Force you need to be a master swordsman not to accidentally maim yourself with a lightsaber, and a small number of lightsabers had the activation switch inside (requiring the Force to activate it, which may or may not be what you were referring to), but it was never generally required.

I've often wondered why people proficient with the force - flinging lightning around, doing mind control etc - need "laser swords" too. You'd think the force would be enough to protect yourself.

ManInBlack
01-24-2018, 07:40 AM
I've often wondered why people proficient with the force - flinging lightning around, doing mind control etc - need "laser swords" too. You'd think the force would be enough to protect yourself.
It's an equalizer. Someone like Yoda or Vader doesn't truly need it - before 2002, it was widely believed that neither Yoda nor Palpatine even used one. That said, it makes a huge difference for less powerful (or worn out) Jedi, as well as the status symbol that it affected in the prequel era.

ElaineA
01-24-2018, 07:47 PM
I've often wondered why people proficient with the force - flinging lightning around, doing mind control etc - need "laser swords" too. You'd think the force would be enough to protect yourself.

Maybe because Star Wars began life as a movie? In the 1970's? It's visual, and special effects at the time were pretty lame (see: the floppy teeth on the shark in JAWS). Glowy swords were AWEsome!

Filmmaker's gotta make a choice.

Sage
01-24-2018, 10:05 PM
Also, Star Wars is a fantasy in space. You have a princess, a pirate, a farm boy Chosen One, magic...& knights. They were Jedi knights, & they got the sword to go along with the job.

ManInBlack
01-25-2018, 06:09 AM
Three different ways of justifying it...and I think all correct, in their own realms.

Albedo
01-25-2018, 06:41 AM
Rule of Cool, I think it's called.

I'm way more confused about how space battles work in the Star Wars universe, anyway. Particularly why they seem to need to drop gravity bombs on a Star Destroyer. Has no-one ever invented missiles? Hell, hyperdrives seem to fit into arbitrarily small craft, so why don't the rebels build hypermissiles armed with powerful nukes? The Empire 2.0 New Order would never see them coming.